The Defence College Experience

stuka #80

I understand the literal meaning of ``Ummah``. I pointed out that it also has a certain negative definition that is not traditionally part of indian culture. Yes, if you are interpret ``hindu`` as its original meaning as ``indian`` you are absolutely correct.

I do not think that was the intent here. I think the intent was that, for the first time ever, we have similar to islamic ``ummah``, a similar hindu ``ummah`` in India. I disagree with that proposition, even though extremists like Modi and Thackeray are working towards that.

Pmishra: Ummah also means means community/brotherhood. In a non religious sense we are all Hindu Ummah ie Community of Hind.

Madani Sahab,

#70

That was a personal and touching glimpse of yourself. You appear to be a genuine guy who shoots from a pleasant& honest heart.

Adios

Ref harimau #73

Okay, Chowk decides to cut short my post without telling me it was going to do that so here is the URL.

Mr. Khan, your comments would be appreciated.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EG12Df05.html

Dost Mittar:

``nothing will concentrate the Pakistani mind better on what they are doing wrong than seeing India forge ahead. ``

True. Just as the sweeping economic reforms announced by Moeen Qureshi motivated the Indians in the early 1990s.

Mr. Madani #70 First, for a country that lost two world wars, German strategists cannot have been the geniuses they are reputed to be. They took unnecessary risks (e.g. opening a two front war with Barbarossa) and allowed their arrogance to override their common sense (e.g. the Russians, whom they considered to be an inferior and uncivilized race, in fact surprised the Germans in Barabarossa with tanks and planes that were technically superior to anything the Germans had; and with tacits the Germans never anticipated - e.g. pulling back of factories to Siberia, excellent infantry-armor coordination). So, forget Barabarossa.
If you are looking for military smarts look at the following: (a) Dienbienphu: The French possessed air control and a modern army, but Giap marched his men to the surrounding heights from where they lobbed artillery shells at will; (b) Post-Tobruk retreat of Rommel: Even though Tobruk was a defeat for the outnumbered Germans, the masterful manner in which Rommel managed to retreat hundreds of miles and thus save his troops is considered to be a stroke of military genius; (c) The 6-Day War: The brilliance being on the part of the Israelis here (although the Arabs were incredibly dumb - I could tell you stories of the Arab overconfidence matched by incompetence from what I heard the Pakistani general Nawazish telling my father back then after having visited the Arab Israeli front back in 1967); (d) the recent Iraq war: Leaving aside the politics, I think militarily it was brilliant, and showed the value of preparing decades in advance for future battlefields.

I could go on. I in fact am very glad that the Indians won in 1971 - otherwise we would still be stuck with managing a structurally unmanageable county. And I think in 1971 God was indeed on the side of the Indians - after all, the writing was on the wall, and the Bengladeshis did not want to be part of Pakistan any more. We Pakistanis had no right to force a people living a thousand miles away, loaded with a tons of grievances against us, to remain part of us. And, as I said in my original post - it was indeed a political victory for India. But I dont consider it a great military victory by any means, for reasons I explained. The only thing I have heard from those disagreeing with me is that there were rivers in the way of the Indian Army. Rivers can be crossed by modern armies, particularly if they have control of the air. The Pakistan Army had already been fighting the Mukti Bahini for six months before this war started - the Indian Army administered the coup de grace. 1971 proved nothing. If anything, by speeding up the nuclearization of Pakistan, it ensured that 1971 was the last time the Indians would ever dare to engage in a full scale war with Pakistan.

Long post. But these are important military matters and need to be discussed carefully. I am unable to draw maps on chowk, otherwise I would do that too. Also, if I knew how, I would also add videos from World War II in order to make this scholarly post more enjoyable to read.

PS: Why are you so concerned that you dont have a car in Karachi, or that you are 56 years old, or that your english is not King`s English?? Your wife loves you, and you seem like a great chap. So screw everything else (sorry for the bad word in the last sentence).

#70 ahmedmadani

You seem to have actually looked at history and I agree with some of your comments. However, this

[quote]
First time in history India is Unofficial Hindu Ummah.
[end-quote]

is not correct. If you look at indian freedom struggle it was multi-religous and not exclusively hindu. The Mughals had many, many hindu generals of the highest rank.
Today, am proud to say that the richest man in India, the recent winner in the womens wimbledon doubles and its president are not hindus.

Maybe you mean something else by ``Ummah``? Unfortunately, I associate it with a bunch of self-obsessed people, only interested in their own culture and ideology, full of victim-complex and deeply intolerant towards the ``others``: hindus, jews, shias, ahmedias, .... On top of it all, their ugly and mean behavior is justified with references to some scripture and tradition !!

Definitely, india is not and does not aspire to this type of ``Ummah``. Hindu and Buddhist traditions have never been exclusivist and the idea of ``we are all hindus together`` is not something that fits easily in indian traditions. I realize that VHP (Vishwa Hinsa Parishad) and ``leaders`` like Modi and Thackeray want to change that but they are on the loosing side of history.

Dear Mr. Khan,



Would you care to comment on the following article from The Asia Times?



Thanks.



Harimau



India: The games the Pentagon plays

By Sultan Shahin



NEW DELHI - An acknowledged master of psyops, the Pentagon has succeeded in conveying to India its very low opinion of the Indian army without allowing a public uproar to build up. The method it used was leaking to sections of the media bit by palatable bit a classified US government report highly damning to the Indian defense services and their policymakers.



In the first leak in early April, one United States officer was quoted as saying, ``We want a friend in 2020 that will be capable of assisting the US militarily to deal with a Chinese threat,`` thus merely implying that the Indian army was not yet fully prepared to assume the role of a US friend. But gradually, through several leaks in different sections of the press, a fuller picture of the seeming contempt in which US generals hold Indian army officers and politicians has emerged.



....

ahmadmadani#70:
``I did not follow logic of Mr. Dostmitter when he said Bangla desh victory was not significant. ``
I did not say that. Tahmed said that and I responded. In fact, I said more or less the same that you did:
``You are right about the Indian army holding all the aces in the bangladesh war. Still, the outcome would not have been a certainty but for the sound tactics and planning of Gen. Maneckshaw and his men, and of the Pakistani delusion of thinking one pakistani soldier equal to ten Indian soldiers.``
You made several statements in your article which are partially incorrect. Contrary to what the RSS people say, the Marathas did not create a hindu ummah. During the battle of Panipat against the Afghans, they had an alliance with the mughals. Their artillery chief, a muslim, was known to be the best ``topchi`` of his time. When captured, the Afghans offered to spare his life if he switched allegiance from `kafirs` to them. He refused, saying that the marathas were his men while Afghans were the foreign enemy.
And yes, the Indians are producing a large number of qualified people, but their overall literacy rate looks good only when compared to Pakistan`s. But you are right in one respect, if India keeps marching ahead economically, Pakistan`s nuclear bomb will become a meaningless asset. But there also, I see a ray of hope for Pakistan. In my opinion, nothing will concentrate the Pakistani mind better on what they are doing wrong than seeing India forge ahead.

Madani Sahib, you may not realise it or know it, but many seem to take you seriously.

Your worldview makes eminent grass-roots sense. I will suggest that you try to get hold of a book Bunker-13 by Aniruddha Bahal and maybe there may be some more understanding of why troops of both sides face each other on borders, and sometimes also troops of same side face each other on borders.

Some day the truth will be told about the business aspect of the Bangladesh freedom movement. Your analysis that a tribesman would blow up a pipeline for 100000/- dollars and then earn 1000000/- every year to guard it is very apt.

Response #67
Dear Mr. Nazarkhan.... I very much appreciate your very kind to response. I have noted your number. I will take advantage of your kind invitation at proper time. I am 56 years old and work at lower level and normally my vocabulary is full of `` ha ji , thank you sir or madam etc. It`s joy to be taken seriously. Many times its contempt shown by accomplished people for ordinary people hurts. I will say without hesitation you are gentleman. One of the best liked article here read of yours `` life with wife``. It pleasure to read how people love even when they are not youth or post youth mentally and physically. It little hard for many like me as we have not car but rarely I go with wife to beach and its very pleasant and she feels better. She is not very educated so I read for her your article and translated bit. Then she asked me do you really feel same about me. Then she asked me why you never told me. I told her our problem is we are so tired , I know you are so tired day in and day out and when i return many times from night work as soon as hit bed asleep as dead man. At least for short time due your article we appreciated married bliss.
There are practical problems of dining with well accomplished people as most of time working at low level one develops inferiority complex. As in hospitality business we do not ask difficult question. When I feel courage , will call you.

My military information is due to my boss( manager). He is retired but likes to read military books. Recently he gave me interesting book to read `` operation Baborossa`` by Paul Elrich a german so its bised for german army and has contempt for Russians as barbarians( it is more operational description book but gives idea how both armies behaved and type of operations on eastern front.. Also I read recently book given by manager `` russia at war 1941-1945 by Alexzander worth``. This gave me some idea about planning , problems etc of military campaigns.

Tahmed 32: My vocabulary of miltary is not good. Airmachine= aircraft. As i was reading above books for last 1 month in spare time at hotel reception russian and german used word airmachimes for aircraft, same with military boat. So I used same.

I did not follow logic of Mr. Dostmitter when he said Bangla desh victory was not significant.
It was the be the best moment for Indian army of defeating, moving with speed, not getting bogged at points of resistance and frog jumping towards capital. As things turned out as they were does not mean they were easy or ordinary. Even with far superior armour, mobility, great legendary leadership and total air superiority , lost moral of russian army, lack of effective leadership of russian political appointed generals and lack of huge rivers on rolling plains germans armies ( battle hardened well oiled -3 million men strong on russian front) could not achieve that fast. They had hard time crossing rivers and establishing bridgeheads. Pakistan army considers the worst defeat- that is proof.
Other thing one should note. Up to now in history till rise of maraths Muslims were victorious. Maraths demolished mughal empire and first time established unofficial ``Hindu Ummah``. Once they achieved they were defeated only when Hindu Ummah failed. British defeated Marata Warlords one at time. First time in history India is Unofficial Hindu Ummah. They may not say it but it is, as they know united thay stand. The worthwhile achievement of India in last 50 century is monumental in this aspect. Hindu Ummah is controlling more land than british controlled directly. I studied the deaths of Indians in Kargil on their ``army web``. They gave list of dead including name rank, state. You can see people died were almost proportion to population of the state ( except few like bengal and gujrat- may be nonmartial shopkeepers and babus). This unofficial Ummah is arming it self, producing enormous wealth reducing poverty, life span, humming industry,upsurge of lower classes. I was looking in matrimonial of Indian web sites men women, from all casts engineers, doctors,accountants, businessmen, girls nody is doing ba etc most are professionals -I am talking Indians in India. One state produces 35,000 engineers ( even assuming quality is poor) this has enormous implications. As in IT tech India started producing computer people they changed India. This enormous explosion of education is more dangerous to us than their fancy nuclear missiles. I take india seriously. Its not Iran or Afghanistan. Indians do not want to go back or have nostalgia for gone things ( This hindu etc just vote catching thing). It is still time to work out things. As if Non BJP govt comes in power they will not dare to make real decisions. They can talk and talk. Then they will start playing with water and world will saay nothing. China is thinking of diverting water and india and Bangla desh will suffer. I have only heard few murmur internationally. We made mistake in 1965 assuming india will not cross international border, they crossed. Time comes they will again cross . This martial race theory no army person belives. Specially people who have faught against indians like my boss do not believe this crap. They respect bravery, courage, generalship and he never takes cheap shots. See defence journal, many officers who faught candidly write about this things.

So I will suggest to be polite, civilised. Abusing, name calling does not score points, it is infantile disorer of grown up men.
We should respect the views of Mr. Romair, Nazar Khan etc.

Nazar :
Do you usually invite people who ask you questions to dinner? If so, I have many questions of my own.

Madani #66 I hope sir that you will accept Mr. Khan`s kind invitation to dinner where he will also discuss the important questions you raise about flying bombs and airmachines. I wish people would invite me to dinner to discuss my posts.

Also, I dont believe that airmachines are real, because how can a machine not fall to the ground when there is in air?? And flying air bombs and laser tanks warboats and battle plans of Pakistan GHQ are very important secrets, and also very important science matters. So please dont tell them to anyone else. Also make sure Mr. Khan orders good dessert after dinner, and does not try to save money by ordering only one plate daal with naan and plain water not coca cola.

Also, take your ex-armyman boss with you to dinner. (Mr. Khan is very happy I am thinking for him and inviting your boss to his dinner as well.)

ahmedmadani # 66

I admire your curiosity. But you have asked a bundle of questions.
If you are in Karachi - call me at 5673477 - I will invite you to a Dinner and give you all my rusted-up ideas.

Sir my inquiry is to PAF (EX)or IAF or people who know about airmachimes etc.

Are tanks not useful as before as now fast moving airmachine with zip zap laser gided bombs? Does it means always thought and faught battles in Plains of Punjab and deserts of Sindh and Raja stan are things of past ? Can a aircraft carry tank destrying( bullets?) missiles in hundreds or it can carry less than 4 to 5? Can tank commander helpless aginst aircraft totally ? I was wondering if one airmachine can carry say if 100 missiles then any blitz can be brought to stop in tracks then what is use of modern fleets of tanks or they are only meant for close distance fighting. ( I was reading autobiography of General Z A Khan regarding his campaign in Raja stan. He wrote hunters two in numbers from IAF took shots at tanks and destroyed- and battle plans also destroyed, I assume they had no laser gun bombs.in 1965 war. and not indian army- not much army prescence was there it appears or wrongly employed at wrong places). Are there air-bomb resistant tanks?

I will like some body to throw light on gone old things.
How are afghans as airforce ? If in case situation arising aghan airforce will pose challenge to pakistan A.F.? Are they rated low as indians.as airforce ? ( I have read Mr. Chuck yager rated best israeli followed by Pakistani A.F.)
How was Vietnam airforce against americans? Did russian migs used by vietnam were useful at that time?
In 1971 I was 23 years old and have seen fires at petrol tanks in karachi harbor. At that time many thought it may be flying bombs from airplanes. Indians say it was by their military boats. People always asked why boats were not attacked by F-15 jets oe fighter aircrafts can not attack on water? Whater names of aircrafts for naval boats sinking type.

In 65 we had ai superiority. Indians fighter will run away to save himself and his plane- wise move. At the same time fighting generals always wote in their books major activity of transporting tanks during day was near to impossible and had to be carried out at night, making impossible to keep deadlines for offensive in Raja stan. Does it mean Because of Punjab and Kashmir borders more aircraft there and less for desert?

India attacked Sui Gas fields , but why they never attached simple more important targets like sluices of Sakkar , Tarbela or Mangala Dams? Or they coild not due to our defensive plans.

Recent damaging of sui gas ppelines two times brought country to standstill affecting people and industry. I have seen in open relatively almost unprotected gas compression Pumping plants. I wonder why not make them underground at present indian airmachine can drop few bomb destroy pumpstation, stopping energy lines. The war is in evitable so to depend on pipe lines for enegy prudent ?

Same way gas coming from Afghanistan (TAP) and IRAN- India pipeline( i think it can not happen and we should not) can be blown easily by indian aircraft when it risers to ground. ( as trbemen blew pipe ) is is sad to have and also indian friendly Afghan warlords can blow pipe line of TAP for 100000 dollars and collect money for repair. and bring Pakistan to standstill. So india can make big loss to us easily. Also afghan warlords will go on increasing protection money ( Friendly MQM does collect Bhatta) to make pipe line costly.
We kneed chowky economic type to write about TAP or CHOWK request some body.

Thanks very much

It indeed is a pity that India is trotted out as the bogeyman to justify a bloated Pakistan army which is now twice the size of what it was before the 1971 war.

But it is a crime when the flower of Pakistani youth is periodically sacrificed to satisfy the megalomania of a few generals.