The Defence College Experience

Nazar sahab,

Urdue? LOL!

I haven`t read the article lekin ek qarz aapka mujh pe abhi udaar hai. . .insha-Allah jald hi. . .

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HEIGHT OF ABSURDITY,

As usual pakistanis are on a pretentious discussion on the military training in pakistan, with ocassional comparison with that of india. With so much of military men on chowk, no one has dared to touch up on that aspect pf pak military traini8ng that promts the generals to take over the country.

It would have been of some insight if one could identify the training process where where the notion of military that has a country is inculcated in the trainig.

The pathetic romairs and nazzar will not dare to mention that.

#33 by Romair
By luck and chance you quit the Army as a captain and found early success. So you tend to see the financial affluence amongst the officer corps from the window of your richness. I would tend to differ. The houses of Army officers are much neater, cleaner and imaginatively laid out than most of their civilian peers. You would alawys find a well laid out exclusive sitting room and a tidy presentation even if it only a glass of water. Your reference to eat outs like Pizza Hut betrays your level of richness. Even a person earning in the range of at least 50,000 in a month cannot be a frequent visitor. True armed forces officers cannot frequent it too often, but that does not affect their professionalism or attitude. Attitude is something generic. It is a constant. The level of spending remains constant to the level of affluence. A poor man if honest will remain so even if he strikes gold.

Yes a level of compartmentation did take place due to Saudisation during the 80s, but invariably most of the nouvelle rich were sorted out by the system itself. Those who were ingenuine invariably got superceded and have since joined the veterans ranks.

I remeber having read that it is the destiny of every professional soldier to lie in wait for a day that may never come and to be prepared when it does even at the peril of his life. No profession gets as close to the ideals of professionalism as a soldier as he is required to scarifice the ultimate; even his life. Just like catholic priests who practice celibacy so as to devote maximmum time to their congregation, too much riches are apt to distract the professionalism of some soldiers. Yet we find many super rich officers who volunteer in the hardiest of places with pride. Money or no money is secondary.

Let us not forget the gallantary displayed by our young officers in Kargil. Most have gone unsung. Officer to Jawan ratio in this war is startling and perhaps the highest in the world. Those still serving are since in different places, hardly anyone propogating a macho image. This is why I agreed with the conclusions of Nazar. Perhaps our young officer is amonst the most professional. This erosion subsequently has more to do with the approach to strategy and books like the `Conduct of War` that are misleading carrying out de education. All armies think alike and what makes the difference is the technology and the group traditions like being colonial, professional, revolutionary or a praetorian army.

Yes for those searching prestige in society, army may have lost its attraction. Such people are ready to forsake their citizen rights to get into uncle sam`s boots. They are a class in themselves.

Till such time our civil society does not metamorphise, attitudes to fixation and traditions will not change. So we will continue to learn from the past and live in it.

Ijaz-gul # 32

National strength is no more a function of militaries. National strength now means a sumtotal of national cohesiveness, poltical stability, economy, industrial growth, diplomacy and so on.

Sr # 28

Your intelligence showed that I was right. He is right that I did not do anything. In that salary, that is best I could do. Military was never my piece of cake. Nor, in fact, the profession of flying. I would have loved to continue my studies in a civil universirt for my self-actualization. But in my opinion no one else is doing anything either. Lost 3-4 wars and using up of over 50% of national budget in last 56 years is not much of an achievement. On top of it, ruining the national political system and bringing a bad name to the country. At least I never took any cuts or commissions. I think it is better if we stick to the issues and not personalities. I have too much information on this subject to throw mud. Wherever I name the personalities, it is where their personal agendas/views have harmed the national interest.

Dullabhatti # 30

My name in urdue means gift.

Romair # 31

Overall, I think the priorities have changed as from the past. Now the priority is promotion, perks and plots. Professionalism comes later.

#33 by Romair
By luck and chance you quit the Army as a captain and found early success. So you tend to see the financial affluence amongst the officer corps from the window of your richness. I would tend to differ. The houses of Army officers are much neater, cleaner and imaginatively laid out than most of their civilian peers. You would alawys find a well laid out exclusive sitting room and a tidy presentation even if it only a glass of water. Your reference to eat outs like Pizza Hut betrays your level of richness. Even a person earning in the range of at least 50,000 in a month cannot be a frequent visitor. True armed forces officers cannot frequent it too often, but that does not affect their professionalism or attitude. Attitude is something generic. It is a constant. The level of spending remains constant to the level of affluence. A poor man if honest will remain so even if he strikes gold.

Yes a level of compartmentation did take place due to Saudisation during the 80s, but invariably most of the nouvelle rich were sorted out by the system itself. Those who were ingenuine invariably got superceded and have since joined the veterans ranks.

I remeber having read that it is the destiny of every professional soldier to lie in wait for a day that may never come and to be prepared when it does even at the peril of his life. No profession gets as close to the ideals of professionalism as a soldier as he is required to scarifice the ultimate; even his life. Just like catholic priests who practice celibacy so as to devote maximmum time to their congregation, too much riches are apt to distract the professionalism of some soldiers. Yet we find many super rich officers who volunteer in the hardiest of places with pride. Money or no money is secondary.

Let us not forget the gallantary displayed by our young officers in Kargil. Most have gone unsung. Officer to Jawan ratio in this war is startling and perhaps the highest in the world. Those still serving are since in different places, hardly anyone propogating a macho image. This is why I agreed with the conclusions of Nazar. Perhaps our young officer is amonst the most professional. This erosion subsequently has more to do with the approach to strategy and books like the `Conduct of War` that are misleading carrying out de education. All armies think alike and what makes the difference is the technology and the group traditions like being colonial, professional, revolutionary or a praetorian army.

Yes for those searching prestige in society, army may have lost its attraction. Such people are ready to forsake their citizen rights to get into uncle sam`s boots. They are a class in themselves.

Till such time our civil society does not metamorphise, attitudes to fixation and traditions will not change. So we will continue to learn from the past and live in it.

CONTAINING THE CRESCENT,

If the pak trainers have any sense, they should look at the emerging political situation, the global task of containing the crescent from turkey to malaysia. Indonesia is taken care of by the australians. India and israle are the only countries who can perform the task and in that context india should send troups to iraq. Pakistan, the source of the most virulent form of islam, is almost surrounded with indian invlovement in afghanistan and iran and the central asian countries. With the building of road through iran to central asia, pakistan will be well and truly irrelevant. The central asia to pakistan gas pipeline has been abandoned by ADB because of no support from india. The LNG deal with iran is signed, ruling out the iran pakistan india pipe line.
At last the task of containing pakistans virulent strain, a little like SARS, is full on. No pak military men have the coirrage to accept the reality. nor the sihns that pakistan is on an iraquisation path.

Romair & Mohar 11

Air War College in Karachi teaches ``Aerial Strategy``. It has students from three services and also foreign students. (I have done this course and rather well)

Naval War College in Lahore (Navy wanted presence in Lahore) teaches ``Naval Strategy`` and it has students from three services including foreign students.

National Defence College in Islamabad (first it was in Pindi) runs two courses - ``National Defence Course`` and ``Armed Forces War Course``.

National Defence Course has students from three services, foreign students and a few Bueracrats from Government. They study National and Defence policy.

Armed Forces War Course studies Military Strategy (Army, Air orce, Navy). It has students from three services. (I did this course and I guess not too well )

The Quetta Staff College conducts basic army-orientated course. This has students from three services and a lot of foreign students.

The Instructors are called Directing Staff.

Latest drama is that Defence College is running a 5-day seminar for Naazims and politicians to teach them the National and Defence strategy.

It is like putting cart before the horse. The Parliament Defence committee should call the services`` representatives for briefing in the parliament like it is done all over the world.

The Defence College syllabus should be drastically revised to contain only the military matters - otherwise you will continue to churn ourt semi-educated national planners from military like me.

Nazar Khan wrote:

``I can never forget the colourful and scintillating dance and music show that they arranged for us at the Sonar Gaon Hotel. As West Pakistanis, we could never match their rich cultural heritage. Our group leader, Javid Nasir (latter ISI boss) sat with his back towards the show during the entire evening because of his misplaced interpretation of our faith. I thought that this was being extremely rude to our hosts.``

Javid Nasir was at least as philistine and boorish as he was rude.

Is this the same Defence College you guys are talking about. This guys says it is some kind of white elephant!!

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm

``These days, however, another entity seems almost on the verge of beating the hotels at this game: the National Defence College in Islamabad, one of the leading white elephants in a city abounding in this species.
``

Just to have an idea of the intellectual level of many of our star officers

Interview of Lt Gen Javed Ashraf Qazi to BBC world is available at:
http://www.satribune.com/archives/nov4_10_02/opinion_javedashraf.htm

Scroll down to get that audio file:
I strongly recommend you people to listen to him. You will be amused. You people will not believe your ears, I promise.

And if still not convinced:

Three stars
By Ardeshir Cowasjee
Dawn
Sunday, 12 January 2003

Javed Nasir, a retired lt-general of the Pakistan army, in October 2002 filed a complaint under Section 6(a)(b)(c), 8 & 11 of the Anti-Terrorist Act, 1997, before the Anti-Terrorism Court at Lahore.

`The complainant` proclaims himself to be one ``who symbolizes Tableeghi Jamaat`s most prominent member with international fame and reputation of the most scrupulously honest individual,`` and claims that in 1992 he ``became an instant international figure.`` The `Respondents/Accused` are: ``Mir Shakilur Rahman, editor-in-chief of the Jang Group of News, Lahore,`` and three others of his Lahore office.....

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20030112.htm

wanna more ??
Just drop a line ... i will post hundreds of more stories.

Romair:
yaar most of your analysis start at your salary as F/L and end at the financial affluence you have succeeded to gain since leaving PAF. Don’t you think this massive recycling of arguments is getting boring?
There must be (and there are) lot many more aspects to military affairs too. Think about it next time you submit a reply on these lines.

RE #35 by khamkhwa.
I beg to differ (again). You are once wrong. Please try to remember the name of a famous cricketer and how it was written in urdu (HINT: the man with the golden arm).

nazr:
View/Offering/Gift
and the one you are talking about is:
Nazar:
Look/Glance/Favor/Motive/Countenance/Slight/View.

Both have a different Z. The appropriate Z which was used in the name of the cricketer and probably the same one in the writer`s name. This time you don`t have to agree with anyone who made a mistake, as you made it yourself. (which I think is less of a crime!)

The writer can clear up this confusion by telling how it is spelled in urdu and not gurmukhi. :)

Regards,

Aasif

Professor Tahmed #9 writes

{{In the war of the incompetents, the least incompetent will no doubt win.}}

Perhaps. Let us look at the example the Professor has in mind.

{{I am sorry if your national pride his hurt, but 1971 was basically a walkover and not even a case of the least incompetent winning - with a nonexistent airforce (6 sabre jets), the local population against them, lines of communication impossible due to geography, no natural barriers (mountains etc.) even a more imaginative general than Niazi could hardly have held on for very long.}}

“No natural barriers” - that is certainly a novel point of view. The most cursory glance at a map of Bangladesh tells me otherwise. Most of Bangladesh is an alluvial floodplain, the delta of the Ganga (Padma), the mighty Brahmaputra (Jamuna), and the Meghna. The land is divided by several major rivers, and subdivided by a host of smaller rivers together with lakes, ponds and swamps. The major rivers and their distributaries are several miles wide even in winter; during summer they merge into a broad sheet of water that covers one-third of the area of Bangladesh. That (together with the closing of the Himalayan passes on the Tibetan border in the North-East on the arrival of snow) is the reason why Indian forces in the Eastern Theater waited till late November to attack. Even so, only one of the approaches to Dacca – via Tangail – was considered tankable. The riverine terrain of Bangladesh would present severe logistical difficulties to any army, even if unopposed, trying to move a couple of hundred thousand men together with tanks, artillery, vehicles, and heavy equipment – quite unlike, say, the North African desert or the North German plain. Hence the modest plan originally approved by General Manekshaw only envisioned capturing Chittagong and Khulna. It was Lt. General Aurora’s brilliant Chief of Staff, Major General JFR Jacob who felt that the capture of Dhaka was both necessary and feasible, and who masterminded the logistical effort behind its execution. If Aurora’s forces were able to fight their way to Dhaka in three weeks or less, it was because they planned properly, used their limited resources in imaginative ways, and did not take their adversary or the terrain for granted.

And even though the Pakistani garrison in Bangladesh could not have survived indefinitely without help, all they needed to do was delay the Indian advance long enough to allow intervention by powerful friends – which in 1971, meant the United States and China. They had eight months in which to prepare their defences and dig in. Nothing prevented Pakistan from basing more aircraft in the East. A more determined, competent and disciplined force could certainly have held out longer. The Pakistan Army in Bangladesh, no doubt exhausted by their heroic exertions in donating genes to the population of Bangladesh, folded very quickly.

It is also interesting to note the way in which the number of Pakistani aircraft in Bangladesh is reduced by a factor of two or more. An innocent error or something else?

{{You may find this unacceptable, given the widespread (and UNTHINKING) acceptance in both India and Pakistan that this was a great military victory. But think about it and you will see what I mean.}}

I suppose we should all hire Professor Tahmed to teach us how to THINK. The results might be disappointing, though.

{{It was a great POLITICAL victory for India no doubt, though. And as much a blessing - albeit in disguise - for Pakistan as it was for Bangladesh. The concept of East and West Pakistan was even more impractical than the defunct UAR (Nasser`s attempt to bring Egypt and Syria together as one country, and there they spoke the same language too).}}

My cynical and unkind assessment is rather different. The political victory could not have been won without militarily defeating Pakistani forces in Bangladesh. The actual capitulation - to the forces of the nation officially designated as hate object - was so complete and crushing as to permanently damage the ‘honour and dignity’ of an Army that prides itself on its alleged warrior heritage and its martial and moral superiority over the Indians. And whether the original concept of East and West Pakistan was feasible, its end meant a refutation of the two-nation theory and a massive loss of national self-confidence and purpose.

That, perhaps, is why partisans of the Pakistan Army, even those who profess to have no use for the idea of national pride, try their best to paper over this deep psychic wound - by not honestly addressing the history of that era, by playing down the primary reason for the unviability of their previously united nation, and by an attempted summary dismissal of the thoroughgoing competence displayed by at least some in the Indian military during that conflict.

dulla bhatti #30

nazar, naazir, manzar.
root word is nazar = sight
naazir (pronounced as naazar by us paindoos) = one who sees.
manzar = scene which is seen.

the word `nazar` though feminine itself, is mostly used for men. Just like you have:
Man Preet for both genders.

ijaz-gul #32: ``I feel that if an individual is genuine, his attitudes will remain constant all his life. Vertical mobilisation will never alter his basic make up. So I disagree with the pro captain critic.``

I assume you are refering to me. The pro-Captain part was a joke, hence the :-).

I think if an individual is genuine, his basic ethics will remain constant (most of the time), but not his attitude. Attitude is depedent no a variety of factors. People who are very unhappy in Pakistan, migrate to the USA, and become very happy, and have a complete change in attitude. Many people who leave the military end up happier with a better attitutde in civilian lives. Many people in civilian lives change professions, get a divorce, get married, etc. and have a change in attitude, etc.

So attitudes are greatly dependent on surrouding factors e.g. one`s stage in life, one`s financial position, one`s boss - so on and so forth. I have seen colleagues who were unhappy due to poor pay in the PAF, and are now the happiest people in the world getting a small fortune in PIA. One of my close friends flunked out of the academy, joined PIA, bought a new new car and a house in Pindi in his twenties, while the rest of us were couldn`t afford an air-conditioner. His attitude was different from ours. Everytime I visit my military colleagues in Pakistan, I find them in all kinds of financial and other problems. They get scared when I ask them to go to Pizza Hut, because they cannot pay their side of the bill, but don`t want to admit it. They have a different attitude towards life.

There is also a distinct different from the previous generation of military men, from Ayub Khan to current Maj Generals (specifically in the Air Force and Navy) and those in it now. Till the 70s, the military was the prime choice of profession in Pakistan (much like the CSS). A lot of well-off families, like Kuli Khan Khattaks etc. sent their kids into the military. They were well looked after. Now the military is much lower on people`s list. Hardly any rich kids join it now. The no. 1 choice is migrating to North America, as professionals. No. 2 is private sector jobs in Pakistan. No. 3 is CSS. No 4 is probably doctor etc. in Pakistan. So on.

I think there is a huge disconnect between Generals and the junior ranks in the miltiary in Pakistan. This is one of the reasons I left. The Generals are of Nazar`s generation. And as Nazar has correctly pointed out, they consider themselves, ``know-it-alls`` (as do the retired folks of that generation, so one should not just limit this criticism to the Generals). They have a poor understanding of the issues and problems (specifically financial) of the junior officers. I have super-intelligent friends in the Pakistani military with Ph.Ds. and M.S degrees from abroad, who are living hand to mouth. My own salary nearly quadrupled when I left the military and got a little bit of extra education, within Pakistan. This is why I highlighted this dynamic.

I think there is a distinct change going on in the type of individuals who will becoming Generals. They will different from the previous ones etc. On the average, they will be much more middle class, from poorer backgrounds, more educated, used to a much lower standard of living, and with an inferiority complex with respect to civilians, developed over decades of lower-standard living. It is so apparent when I meet my military colleagues. And some of the them are sword of honor winners, who are bound to make General.

I don`t know if this change will be good or bad. But it will definitely have an effect on their attitudes.

Your remarks will be welcomed. It is good to have a knowledgeable discussion on this subjet. Previously, this site didn`t have enough individuals who had accurate knowledge of these issues.