The Defence College Experience

Romair:

``Indian Sikh Police guy who put down the Sikh uprising in Punjab, ``

HAHA!! KPS Gill!! He is an MA of English Lit and is fond or poetry. Check out a movie called Mahol Theek Hai from your local store to get an idea of Punjab Police immediately in the aftermath of the movement.

nazarhayatkhan: If Ali Kuli Khan was with you in Defence College, that would mean your seniority must be around that or a bit lower than that of Musharraf. If Ali Kuli is the guy who was in contention with Musharraf for the COAS position.

Would you happen to know his younger brother (can`t remember first name) Kuli Khan. I was in Sargodha when he was there. Also, do you know someone named Rahim Yousafzai. I think the later was with Ali Kuli in Defence College also. So maybe you two were together.

My previous reply seems to not have shown up. Basically it is an interesting article. I would say I agree with most of it. The officers of your generation had a much higher living standard within and outside than the officers of today` military. So their views, problems and issues are different from what is faced by soldiers today.

I would not advise any young Pakistani with potential to join the military now. Primarily because the living standards and pay etc. are significantly lower than for the same amount of work and talent, in comparison to a Pakistani civilian life. My colleagues in PIA are living it up, while those in the military are in dire straits.

But if someone is going to join the military, hands down, Pakistan Navy is the best option.

Someone told me Javed Nasir used to be famous as a party animal in the Army, before he became religious. Is that true?

Also, I have Ashraf Qazi is very efficient, and has done a great job with Railways as the minister.

ACM Jamal is a very cultured and sophisticated man. Like an Urdu-speaking poet. He is from the driking and partying group of the Air Force, from what I have heard.

Ali Kuli Khan, unlike his political family, has a good reputation also.

I read in Eric Margolis` book that Akhtar Abdur Rahman and the Indian Sikh Police guy who put down the Sikh uprising in Punjab, are the two most intimidating men he has met in his whole life. And Margolis has met and fought alongside basically everyone from Afghan Mujahideen to US Generals. I wonder if he is right?

TAhmed: You are ignoring the technolgy induction that has taken place. Your WW2 example is accurate inso far as the ground war dominated strategic thinking. But that is in line with strategc objectives as well as geographical reality. The induction of missiles, AWACs etc does change the dimensions of technology. Beyond that any ground war will have superficial similarities to WW2. Iraq 1 can also follow in that category. Iraq 2 is similar to Guedrian`s blitzkreig across France.

stuka #7: The top Pakistani and Indian officers, in their respective military branches, go abroad for Staff College courses. I know quite a few from Pakistan who have gone to UK, Turkey, USA etc. Over there, they are with students from all over the world. Interestingly, in UK etc. the Pakistani and Indian officers and families generally hang out together, to the amazement of everyone else. Since the top officers are at their courses, they end up going to the General ranks in their forces. At which point they end up commanding militaries against each other. While at the same time, they are family friends, from their days in foreign Staff Colleges.

I have always found that interesting.

nazarhayat:

Good article. It seems you have more inside information than romair about Pakistani miliytary.....ah good old days when he ruled over chowk as the sole miltary expert...anyway, I hope you don`t get angry at discouraging comments like #10. Basically, it is your article and your right of whatever you wish to communicate. It would be actually dishonesty for a writer to write for the sake of pleasing as many people as possible.

Do you know that Ashraf Qazi was BB`s choice for COAS but Farooq Leghari appointed Jahangir Karamat as COAS and the begining of estrangement between Farooq Leghari and BB but Jahangir Karamat returned the favor by backing Leghari over firing BB government. Poor Ashraf Qazi has to wait several years to make a killing until Musharraf made him Railways minister. The irony is that now both Farooq Leghari and Ashraf Qazi are in the same boat and Jahangir Karamat is an outtsider but he does not care since the tanks deal with Ukrain....

The best killing in military was perhaps made by Akhtar Abdul Rehman and Zia. While Zia`s killings are still abroad and basically unknown, Akhtar Abdul Rehman`s killings are everywheer between Lahore and Lyallpur, from Peopsi bottling to Sugar Mills. Akhtar Abdul Rehman had several cousins in the military. As the story goes, Akhtar`s son, Humayun had actually lost election in Lahore and victor was announced but three of his cousin now at Brigadier and Major General Ranks made it possible to make him win. Like Zia, Akhtar was also Jullundhari and this khamosh Jullundhari Pathan mujahid made perfect match with Zia and quietly accumulated wealth from Afghan war funds and finally eliminated all signs of corruption at OjhRi camp, Rawalpindi on one fateful morning......

aqazi

I dont know about secularist vs religiosity--all i know is that somebody who is the chief of ISI and who sits with his back to people just because they arent muslim or punjabi or what have you is a sad piece of humanity. The mindset of people who base a country on ethnicity and religion and get into such positions of power--it is insane and sad...shouldnt somebody more progressive and tolerant find these people ridiculously foolish? the fact that somebody is actually writing about that mindset is commendable.

Fact is being `secular` or tolerant doesnt mean u neccessarily become less muslim or christian or whatever. It just means that you dont make another person`s identity a basis for disliking them. Their ability, character and behaviour dictate that rather than their name. It is a philosophy of competence rather than name and social status. Just that. Now tell me that doesnt empower you? that it doesnt make you feel more confident and master of your fate? That decisions about you are based on your competence rather than your name, appearance, religion or social status.

If Pakistan is so good, why do people migrate from the country i.e., societies where identities are not based on competence to a society where it is? a 60 billion dollar question.

This article is a curious mix of insider look and superiority complex. The author seems to hold the view that he`s inherently more intellectual than practically everyone in the Defense College course. And this bias taints all the interactions the author had with anyone. I highly doubt if the author learned anything in the course itself, apart from acting like Bee Khala and criticizing everyone, especially anyone who might, God Forbid, show any religious inclinations.

But of course, a big hit with all the ``secularists``.

Maharana #8 In the war of the incompetents, the least incompetent will no doubt win. I am sorry if your national pride his hurt, but 1971 was basically a walkover and not even a case of the least incompetent winning - with a nonexistent airforce (6 sabre jets), the local population against them, lines of communication impossible due to geography, no natural barriers (mountains etc.) even a more imaginative general than Niazi could hardly have held on for very long. You may find this unacceptable, given the widespread (and UNTHINKING) acceptance in both India and Pakistan that this was a great military victory. But think about it and you will see what I mean. It was a great POLITICAL victory for India no doubt, though. And as much a blessing - albeit in disguise - for Pakistan as it was for Bangladesh. The concept of East and West Pakistan was even more impractical than the defunct UAR (Nasser`s attempt to bring Egypt and Syria together as one country, and there they spoke the same language too).

I am not interested in any of these paper warrior India-Pakistan quarrels on chowk. If you read my post carefully, you will see that my point is not merely that the Indian military is basically ineffective in the context of any future India-Pakistan war.

My point is a little broader than that: My point is that BOTH sides, India and Pakistan, have militaries that are as useless in the nuclear age as Saddam`s airforce was in the recent war. In the nuclear age, their conventional weapons have been rendered ineffective - and that is why while there were 2 full scale wars in the first two decades after independence, there have been 0 wars in the last three decades. The continued heavy reliance on WWII like militaries by both sides is simply an index of their inability to read the writing on the wall. The saving grace is that with nuclearization, these conventional armies can at best serve to back up police (as is being done in Kashmir by India).

Nazar:

I would like to agree with SAC in saying that this was an excellent article. Too bad Fuzair does not come around to Chowk anymore otherwise he too would have enjoyed it.

I`d also like tosay that this is the calibre we expect from you, therefore our surprise at your telling us how to hold a fork and knife during a previous article.

Parag

Tahmed,
#5

``As for tactics, I am only glad that the Indian military is as unimaginative as the Pakistan military when it comes to strategy and tactics.``

The same unimaginative military rendered Pak army useless in 71`s fall of dhaka in 15 days. Please try not go against certain established facts. I do not consider indian military best and fualtless in the world . But on the contrary, with active american support Pakistani army has only been able to capture pakistan repeatedly. In light of all the wars fought between India and Pak and the resulting outcome, Indian military does prove to be a useful instrument of the state for any situation.
What was Pak army`s strategy

---

Talibaan, kaargil. You know the results of that. And I`m sure will continue to see in Pakistan in the coming days.

Adios

sac #4

How competent are the senior level generals in the Pakistani military ?
Even without the ideological crap politics makes it hard for people to rise in the ranks based on merit.

Good to get some insider stories on what what went on (goes on?) at the staff college. Your article also sheds some light on why so many army people think ``Father Military Knows Best`` for Pakistan.
As for tactics, I am only glad that the Indian military is as unimaginative as the Pakistan military when it comes to strategy and tactics. Both militaries are still geared to fighting Germans in North Africa in WWII. Thank God the Brits did not leave India right after WWI, otherwise the military geniuses on both sides would still be basing their thinking around trench warfare.

Technological advances that have taken place since WWII have simply been tacked on to this archaic ``military strategy``. The results are fascinating: Indian Army brings 1 million men on Pakistan borders, complete with armored columns, just like WWII. Pakistan Army responds by sending military to forward bases, again like WWII. THEN Musharaff (the man has street smarts, I`ll grant him that) pulls out the post-WWII weaponry (missile tests, reminder that pakistan retains right to first use of nukes if pushed). Result: The charade is exposed. The million man army from India goes back, the pakistan army calls back people from forward bases. No one questions the financial and economic cost to India of putting one million men on the border to fight a war that can no longer be fought. In Pakistan, no one questions the need for matching India`s charade with a charade of our own. No one asks why we need these massive militaries. The joke on the poverty stricken masses in both countries goes on, as the desi Colonel Blimps on both sides play their war charades.

This is definitely one of the better articles submitted on Chowk for a while. Absolutely on the mark with regard to the makeup of the officers that comprise the three branches of the armed forces.

I have a lot of respect for the author if he actually spoke the words that he did in front of Akhtar Rehman. A lot of people had their lives ruined professionally as well as personally for doing the same. Reminds me of something that appeared daily in the Nawai-waqt. ``The biggest jihad is telling the truth in front of a cruel despot``. A well-known story is about our Petroleum secretary. He asked some very uncomfortable questions in a staff college meeting attended by Zia and was duly thrown out. Being an enterprising man he ended up at Stanford, earned a doctorate in Engineering and went back during BB`s time to claim his (well-deserved) pound of flesh. He has subsequenctly served all governments that have come and gone. Others have not been so lucky.

later
-sac

Nnazar Hayat Khan: I did not know you were in the Air Force. My father attended National Defence College in India in 1993. I will email your article to him. What branch were you in?

Good reading and insight, thanks. Here are some from me . . .

a) The ``religion and gender at home`` formula is how it works here. Still.

b) Politics was simply absent, and as you put it, not required till you aspired to reach Brigadier.

c) Thank you for your compliments to the Navy. I found Pakistani seafarers who I met and/or sailed with to be excellent all around, too, though for the life of us, we Indians could never understand why they were all so universally bad in teen-patti.

d) Your little aside about Navy at 20 knots (or 10, or 30 . . .) is fine, but please to note that this was without brakes or parachutes or whatever. Leading to large dollops of pre-empting.

e) Hindu Kush Mountain is at your end and we are dreaming of Hindu Kingdoms AKhand Bharats?

f) How many bosses from ISI did you know? Akhtar Rehman, Javid Nasser, Ashraf Qazi have been mentioned by you.

Question: Do our countries have the luxury of a few more wasted years?

`` We also actually got Mullas as guest speakers who presentations sounded like Friday prayer sermon. ``

I always believed that the military training includes madrassa inputs and at last one can understand why mushy manuered the jihadists into power. The introduction of the graduate scheme, the hindrence to other parties and the rise to power of jihadists is simply the influence of a large section og the military. These are the kinds of info that ferzok would never dare to mention, a romair would deny and hamid woul phu phu