The Defence College Experience

Re: # 37
--Hopeless for Romair hun.
Bring your hopes down cuz` Romair`s base of argument is not shakin at all!

LOL

re: fuzair

cheema was a ds at staff college around 77/78 (?). he was definitely a brilliant officer and earmarked for the general staff. the better ones usually go for the war course instead of the ndc course which is more of a consolation thingee. i think you go for the war course first and then become ds at staff college - but i doubt if there`s a hard and fast rule about this - the ms has to take into account all sort of other things also. i don`t remember when cheema did his war course (before or after the stint at quetta) - don`t know about gulfaraz - what were his arms and when was he in quetta? as for zia - he was in my opinion quite a sick individual - if you were a brigadier or below the rank of a brigadier, you posed no threat to him - all promotions to maj. gen. and above used to be approved by him personally. many of those ``rebel officers`` at quetta were promoted to brig. and given good posts. those were the early days - bhutto was behind bars but still alive - and zia was moving with caution - i guess he was hoping that those chaps would eventually become part of the herd, but most of them retired as brig. i can`t think of any who made it to the rank of maj. gen.
right before executing bhutto, zia sent a questionaire to all formation commanders - brigade and div commanders (corps commanders ofcourse were already with him) asking for the opinion of the commander and his troops on the following: should martial law be lifted? and should bhutto be hanged? you can imagine what happened to the careers of the officers who gave unpleseant replies. there was actually one commander who literally asked his battalion commanders to call darbar and get the opinion of the troops :-) - during the eighties a lot of incompotent and corrupt officers were promoted just so that zia could keep them under his firm control - there are too many to list - i think fazal-i-haq and akhtar abdur rehman were probably at the top the ladder - it was quite prevalant in all services at that time - lots of stories about mrs. & acm anwar shameem - but you probably know all the stories anyway. the good thing is that they have faded away and i hope the likes of begs and nasirs are being sent home by the time they become majors.

Re: r.a. janjua #98

Thank you. Glad to be back.

I think you might be correct, Sarwar Cheema did resign his commission but I am sure that he was at NDC doing the War Course--which meant that he was marked as a high-flyer. Since I think he would have been a DS at Staff College before doing the War Course, this then doesn`t make sense. Why send someone who is a known piplia to the War Course? When was a DS? Mid 1970s?

I knew Col. Gulfaraz slightly; met him when he was in the States doing his Ph.D in Petroleum Engineering. He had been approved for Brigadier when he asked Zia at a Staff College dinner what it felt like to sign the death warrant of the man who had been his mentor, etc. etc. Gulfaraz liked to call himself a Brig since he was approved for promotion but was retired before he put on the rank. Was he one of the group of Staff College officers who were ``sorted out?`` Or is this a different group.

Re: the Niazi debate
I knew quite well (family connection) the G1 Ops Eastern Command during Niazi`s tenure as GoC there. He told me that several times he asked Niazi to approve plans for troop redeployment, defense of Dacca (and other large towns), contingency plans, etc. Niazi pooh-poohed every suggestion; said it smacked of defeatism; he was confident that the troops would be able to repel any attack; Chinese and US help was forthcoming; etc etc. Now, a lot of this could be self-serving post-facto nonsense but knowing what kind of a man he was, I believe him. Niazi was perhaps the worst Lt.Gen to have out there but he was a great ``commander type.``

If Dacca had been defended, a negotiated surrender was possible. Anyway, the rest is history.

Pmishra # 106,

Excellent observations!!!

pmishra2 #106 You points are valid. The question I was discussing is, as you correctly point out, the low level (or narrow) one in terms only of military actions. I dont think there is anything wrong in focussing on a narrow issue alone on chowk (God knows we have enough generalities tossed around when it comes to political discussions on chowk).

In terms of the broader political question, like you I too noted in my earlier post on this board that regardless of how one views the military actions, politically 1971 was indeed a victory for India. And indeed it goes to the credit of Indira Gandhi that she did not try to retain control over Bangladesh once it became an independent country. And I agree that our generals made a mess out of Afghanistan with their backing of one faction (the taliban) over others rather than trying to get these different factions to come together as the international community is trying to do now.

I would trade our generals for yours (who stick to military matters only, rather than trying to determine the political direction of the country) any day.

nazar #104 The way i understand, the basic objective in any military conflict is almost always one of preserving one`s forces while destroying enemy forces. Gaining or losing ground is important only insofar as it affects this objective.

I too recall that Yahya kept pushing Niazi to hold on to the political objective (i.e. not to yield an inch of territory), but once the Indian army attacked there seems no question that Niazi should have focussed on the military objective alone and pulled his forces back. No doubt somewhere along the way it became impossible to pull back forces anyway (given partisan actions in disrupting transport by the mukti bahini). But there is plenty of blame to go around on 1971, and not one head has rolled. I dont mind the military defeat actually (who cares, except for the many lives on all sides that were lost), but the lack of accountability for the manner in which the Bengali population was treated by our army - THAT is what Niazi and his friends should have been charged with as soon as they returned to Pakistan. This is the real shame of 1971 for us as Pakistanis. Not the military defeat.

#103 tahmed32

The real indian achievement w.r.t. Bangladesh is that India has allowed Bangladesh to follow its own path. To the credit of Bangladesh this path has been one of democracy; admittedly, like indian democracy this also has a large number of flaws (extreme poverty, attacks on minorities).

At the same time, there is no question that there has been huge progress since 1971 and especially when comparied to Pakistan today. There is no doubt in my mind that Bangladesh will be intact, little more prosperous and closer in spirit and style to Malaysia or India by 2020. One cannot say the same for certain other countries in india`s neighborhood.

I would say this is the real victory for India. It helped liberate a neighboring country from an oppressive regime but it did not destabilize it or destroy it. Low-level arguments about paki army vs. indian army miss the point. One need only look at Afghanistan to understand an alternative path for Bangladesh.

r.a.janjua #98 Many of the civil war battlefields (and indeed the revolutionary war battlefield at Yorktown as well) are indeed very well preserved. At Gettysburg, a lot of the vegetation has been restored to what it was at the time of the battle. One can actually re-trace the actual battle action - walk across the wheat field of Pickett`s charge at Gettysburg for example, and see for oneself how easy it was for the southerners to think the artillery preceding the charge had destroyed northern defenses when in fact the shelling had been largely ineffective, thereby changing Pickett`s charge to a bloodbath for the southerners, thus changing the tide of the battle that changed the tide of the war. Next time you should also visit Antietem, if you havent done so already - 19,000 men died on a single day in what was probably one of the fiercest battles that has ever taken place. No wonder there are so many civil war buffs in this country - they can re-live history for themselves.

Unlike US, one does not find battlefields so well preserved in Europe I think (due to lack of open spaces). In Pakistan, I think we have a number of important battlefields, but given our other unfortunate problems I guess we do not have the resources (at least not today) to restore and preserve them. In Multan, e.g., a couple of years ago I was casually told by someone that Alexander the Great received an arrow wound at the spot we were passing by. The Multan battle was not only fierce but significant in that it marked the turning point for Alexander`s conquests that had started in Greece. Someday hopefully we will have such battlefields also preserved, and the battle actions explained, as well as they do in the US.

harish_hyd #101 I have pointed out many times on chowk to many things that India can be proud of - the development of democratic institutions in a country of 1 billion people is a major major achievement; the lack of meddling of the military in politics; the IITs; secularism (tarnished no doubt by both the muslim family laws on the one hand and the rise of hindu extremism on the other, but nevertheless still present); as well as many aspects of Indian culture (not just movies either).

So, if you feel that I always give a negative spin to India then I think you are wrong in your feelings. I have a right to my views based on my understanding of the situation, and my understanding of 1971 is that it was not such a great military victory. I have been personally attacked by a couple of your disappointed compatriots as a result, but they have not presented any convincing arguments to reject what I wrote.

Also, can you claim, based on your posts on chowk, to have tried to be as balanced in your views on India-Pakistan relations and interactions and in your appreciation of Pakistani culture as I am able to say above??

This thread is coming to an End. Thanks every one for a quality feedback.

Tehmed32 # 92

I differ with your second paragraph. This was a classic example of why the Politicians should make the political decision and military decision should be left to the Generals.

In this specific situation, the issue was hot at the UN. Only a holding out time of about 2 weeks was required before the world community could get a ceasfire between India and Pakistan and a possible retention of East Pakistan in some form with Pakistan.

A political leader would have given a decision ``Hold East Pakistan or at the minumum Dacca for 2 weeks``. And then left it to the Army how it does it. By holding out at choke points or fortress defence of Dacca.

Since Yahya khan himself was a General - his mindset was military ``not losing an inch`` and was micro managing the military strategy sitting 1000 miles away.

Indians politicians knew the UN situation and rightly went for the kill - to get Dacca quickly and sabotage any UN resolution of ceasefire.

So in the last days, East Pakistan became Bangladesh because of Bhuttos greed (having torn the earlier Polish ceasefire resolution) and Yahya`s incompetence. More some other time.

re: 100

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/mana/map1.jpg

#92 by tahmed32 on July 16, 2003 8:37am PT

[So, as i said earlier: it was a war of the incompetents, with the more incompetent general surrendering.]

Which, in other words means that the BETTER Army won. Trust Tahmed to put a negative spin on any Indian accomplishment (one of the swiftest and the most decisive military victories in recent times). Which proves that he is true-blooded Paki masquerading as a patriotic American.

Ref stuka #96

[Harimau: Are you in DC/Virginia area as well????? Damn!!]

Well, if I were there I would invite Mr. Nazar Hyatt Khan & family to dinner. Used to live there (Silver Spring, Gaithersburg, Reston, Potomac). Still have good friends and try to visit there once a year.

Ref tahmed32 #94

I was wondering how you got your wife to stop visiting the Manassas mall!

You need to stop being so serious all the time!

Ref stuka #89

[ But now the Mountain is coming to Mohammad and we can meet right here. :) ]

Surely you could have chosen a more felicitous phrase.

Beware: fatwa closing in rapidly!

re: 81

welcome back fuzair!
if my memory serves me right, ghulam sarwar cheema was not kicked out of the army - he resigned his commission to protest martial law. i personally know quite a few army officers who did that. cheema caught zia`s attention while he was a ds at staff college - that`s right around the time when martial law was imposed. there were many officers along with cheema who openly protested the imposition of martial law at quetta - which resulted in zia saab`s famous order to the commandant asking him ``to sort out these rebel officers``. what i know of gen. nishat - he would never have allowed those taping sessions at ndc your friend talks about. besides i am not sure why you would want to do that - an officer`s opinions and reputation, other news/views in the armed forces travel quite quickly by just word of mouth.


re: tahmed
i am a great fan of the civil war myself. had a chance once to see some of the battlefields - manassas, gettysburg, and there are couple of them right around the fredericksburg area - have you seen ken burn`s civil war series done for pbs. he did a nice job.

TAhmed: Bhai, I thought you were Canadian??!!??

Harimau: Are you in DC/Virginia area as well????? Damn!!

harimau #93

I did not say manassas.
I said ``major civil war battlefields``.
Manassas is not the only major civil war battlefield.

Ergo: duh-uh.

Ref tahmed32 #92

[The US civil war is another fascinating war i think, and i have visited all the major civil war battlefields in our area (until my wife decided enough was enough).]

How did THAT happen? After all, the mall at Manassas has been built on the battlefield of the battle at Manassas!

Nazar #83 I grew up in military cantonments, and have plenty of folks in the military (father, father-in-law, uncles, cousins, nephews, even a granduncle who fought in France in WWI, losing three fingers in a trench, and who told us how the pay was Rs. 10 and you were expected to bring your own horse). I am a certified armchair military guy though - but have enough interest in the subject that my wife thinks that all men are afflicted with some genetic problem that causes them to be fascinated by war. I read books when I can (one of the earliest was in class 8 when i finished a 1000 page 19th century published book written on Napoleon`s campaigns that was written by a chap - Abbott - who actually met napoleon. the latest was a book i read a four months back on the Bataan Death March plus subsequent liberation of the prisoners that is a fascinating read). The US civil war is another fascinating war i think, and i have visited all the major civil war battlefields in our area (until my wife decided enough was enough).

Also read up a bit on the 1971 war and discussed with participants (my father-in-law used to visit Bangladesh in those fateful days between march and december 1971 and would meet all the Niazis and others there and had some interesting things to tell about their mindset - which he did not appreciate at all i may add).

I understand that a basic problem was that the pak army had two strategies, one driven by political goals (and meant not yielding an inch of ground in bangladesh) and the other by military goals (and meant consolidating army by moving troops within a defense perimeter around Dhaka). The political strategy was geared to fighting the mukti bahini, while the military one was supposed to replace it in case the indian army attacked. The switch never took place, and indian army simply by-passed the troops scattered around the country and the rest is history. So, as i said earlier: it was a war of the incompetents, with the more incompetent general surrendering.

stuka #89 ``Any other Chowkies in the DC/ Virginia area?``

Moi. tauheedahmed@hotmail.com

Fuzair: Welcome back.

Fuzair: Guess my previous post got missed. Welcome back!!

Nazar: I just read your post about your vacation in Virginia in your ILog. I dunno how much sense it makes to publish your phone number there when an email would suffice (just from a safety perspective)


Anyways, I live in DC. Would definitely like to meet up. My email address is pvohra@yahoo.com

Any other Chowkies in the DC/ Virginia area? I was thinking of going to Nazar`s place in Kkarachi for dinner. But now the Mountain is coming to Mohammad and we can meet right here. :)

Madani Sahab,

Believe me, your post is much more interesting than the posts of some of your more educated compatriots. I would have loved to interact personally with you. Unfortunately I`d need a visa for that. Keep posting. They make Chowk a lively place.

Warm Regards,
Harish

Madani sahab: please mera bhi number likh lain; whenever you have time, would love to sit down and talk with you. 0300-2271678. aur isko istimaal karne ke liya courage waghaira ki koi zaroorat nahin; mujhe aap se milke khushi ho gi.

Harimou: Nazar is a bit too kind. The main problem of the Indian Armed Forces, as correctly pointed out by Americans, is the tight control or rather the stranglehold the bureaucrats have over uniformed services.

Now, the IAS`s mantra is ``civil control of armed forces`` which is exactly how it should be. However, the civil control means that the armed forces should reported to the elected representatives. There can at most be a bureaucrat per service to do liasion, such as secretary of the Army, Air Force etc. In India however, the MIN of Defense is composed entirely of IAS people who form an unbridgeable layer between the politicians and the military. In actual terms it means that the Armed Forces are stuck in inertia, be it in procurement, transfers or organizational changes at a macro level.

In India and Pakistan, money has been made on procurement. There is no difference at all. One hand it ismilitary officers that make money and on the other it is IAS. However. the crucial difference is that procurement procedures meet the needs of the Pakistan Army whereas in India constant delays have lead to unnecessary degradation of preparedness.

Nakhok # 82

Without going into long theories, let me give you my cold-blooded bottom lines in all cases:

1947 - If the tribal Lashkars had been sent, they should not have been stopped mid-way. Wrong political decision by Pakistan. India simply occupied the Muslim states within its territory. That was perhaps the only military solution ever possible in Kashmir case. After that there was none.

1962 - It was an oppurtunity for Pakistan to exploit just as India exploited the 1971 oppurtunity. Pakistan made the wrong political decision by not jumping into the war with China. No such oppurtunity will ever come in future.

1965 - A completely stupid war initiated by Pakistan that put Pakistan on the downhill out of which it has not recovered as yet. War outcome was a stalemate. For Pakistan, the day was saved by the Air Force which had good equipment.

1971 - A complete political and a miltary failure by Pakistan.

Kargil - A stupid action by Pakistan with no political foresight. Lost a great deal in terms of its image in the world, damaged the Kashmiri cause and finally lost militarily.

India`s Srilankan adventure and Tamils has been its one mistake. But it recovered in time and now never talks on this issue.

The future lies in forgetting all the above. Making an Economic SAARC Union and gradually progressing towards a political Union.

Harimou # 77

The US report is based on their own national interest. In Pakistan, they can directly deal with Army and get the thing regulaized from the Civil Government, if that happens to be different.

In India, there is a proper system of complete civilian control over the military, as it should be. The issue has to be resolved at the Political level before translating it into some action by the military.

Otherwise, there is absolutely no difference in man-to-man comparison or efficiency - both are from the same stock. Although Bangla Desh was primarily a political failure by Pakistan but even here the Pakistan Army used a poor strategy and the Indian Army used the correct strategy. (Pakistan Army spread itself too thin in Pockets - Indian Army simply bypassed them and reached Dacca)

So the US report is nothing more than what simply suites them. It is big subject. More some time later.

Tehmed 32

I am impressed by your knowledge of history. I am sure it is your personal interest or did you study the subject some where. You are most invited for dinner with Stuka and Madani Sahib.

Hello All,

After a long absence from Chowk, I thought I would poke around and see what was going on. Glad to see that some of the old gang is still around, still fighting the (same old) good fight!

Stuka, I am truly touched that you missed me!
Hello also to Romair, Tahmed, SameerJB and anyone else I may `know` on this board.

Someone I know did the War Course some years before WCDR Nazar (do I have the rank right or are you a GCPT?) did, when NDC was still in Lalkurti, and I am reminded of a story he used to recount. Gen Nishat (I think thats the name), a gentleman of the old school, was the Commandant and one day this person was called into his office. Gen. Nishat said that he should really control his syndicate`s discussion more tightly since the topics were sometimes getting out of hand. Basically, Col. Sarwar should stop badmouthing the corrupt generals in the Army otherwise Nishat might have to take official notice of it. Since the officer in question had just said this a few hours ago, it was unlikely that it had already been reported to the Commandant. So Nishat was asked how he knew what Sarwar had said to the syndicate? Apparently, all the conference rooms were bugged and the Commandant could listen in on the discussions!

BTW, for those of you who may recall him from his political days, this is the same Col. Sarwar who served Benazir Bhutto as her Minister of State for Defense after he was kicked out of the Army. Apparently, during a Q&A session with Gen. Zia, Sarwar asked him what he was going to do about the corrupt generals in the Army. Zia hemmed and hawed and said that while there was some corruption in the Army, it was minimal and he was going to act against it when and if it was found. Sarwar responded that he was not talking about general corruption in the Army but specifically about high ranking generals who were corrupt. Zia did his famous ``Heh, heh, heh,`` and changed the subject.

Sarwar was retired from the Army shortly thereafter and then went into politics. Sarwar had an excellent war record and was a very bright man, not to mention pretty darn near fearless, although as a politician, I`ve heard he decided to make money instead.

BTW, WCDR saab, in your sojourn at NDC, did you study the 1971 fiasco at all? Even 1965?

Regards.

This is what Altaf Gauhar (the powerful information secretary in the
regime of ``Field Marshal`` Ayub Khan) wrote the 1947 war of
``liberation`` in Jammu & Kashmir:

``.....the Kashmir invasion, planned by hoardes of lawless tribesmen of
the NWF, who indulged in murder and looting as they moved into the
territory of Jammu and Kashmir. Khurshid Anwar, an ex-army officer,
who was killed in the operation, was supposed to be the main organiser
of this operation. The tribesmen were assured that the Indian army was
too ill-organised to offer any counter offensive, so they could fight
their war of freedom without fear. No one remembered that frontier
rebels do not fight wars of freedom on behalf of other people. They
settle their tribal disputes through looting, murder and devastation.``

It is interesting to note that Pakistan`s ruling elite was quite
willing to have its cake and eat it too. Thus at independence, it
quickly accepted the Junagarh Nawab`s offer to join Pakistan even as
it organized the tribal onslaught on Jammu & Kashmir lest its Maharaja
does a Junagarh. It is another matter that Pakistan`s duplicity was
less than fruitful - losing 100% of Junagarh and retaining about a
third of Jammu & Kashmir.

stuka #80

I understand the literal meaning of ``Ummah``. I pointed out that it also has a certain negative definition that is not traditionally part of indian culture. Yes, if you are interpret ``hindu`` as its original meaning as ``indian`` you are absolutely correct.

I do not think that was the intent here. I think the intent was that, for the first time ever, we have similar to islamic ``ummah``, a similar hindu ``ummah`` in India. I disagree with that proposition, even though extremists like Modi and Thackeray are working towards that.

Pmishra: Ummah also means means community/brotherhood. In a non religious sense we are all Hindu Ummah ie Community of Hind.

Madani Sahab,

#70

That was a personal and touching glimpse of yourself. You appear to be a genuine guy who shoots from a pleasant& honest heart.

Adios

Ref harimau #73

Okay, Chowk decides to cut short my post without telling me it was going to do that so here is the URL.

Mr. Khan, your comments would be appreciated.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EG12Df05.html

Dost Mittar:

``nothing will concentrate the Pakistani mind better on what they are doing wrong than seeing India forge ahead. ``

True. Just as the sweeping economic reforms announced by Moeen Qureshi motivated the Indians in the early 1990s.

Mr. Madani #70 First, for a country that lost two world wars, German strategists cannot have been the geniuses they are reputed to be. They took unnecessary risks (e.g. opening a two front war with Barbarossa) and allowed their arrogance to override their common sense (e.g. the Russians, whom they considered to be an inferior and uncivilized race, in fact surprised the Germans in Barabarossa with tanks and planes that were technically superior to anything the Germans had; and with tacits the Germans never anticipated - e.g. pulling back of factories to Siberia, excellent infantry-armor coordination). So, forget Barabarossa.
If you are looking for military smarts look at the following: (a) Dienbienphu: The French possessed air control and a modern army, but Giap marched his men to the surrounding heights from where they lobbed artillery shells at will; (b) Post-Tobruk retreat of Rommel: Even though Tobruk was a defeat for the outnumbered Germans, the masterful manner in which Rommel managed to retreat hundreds of miles and thus save his troops is considered to be a stroke of military genius; (c) The 6-Day War: The brilliance being on the part of the Israelis here (although the Arabs were incredibly dumb - I could tell you stories of the Arab overconfidence matched by incompetence from what I heard the Pakistani general Nawazish telling my father back then after having visited the Arab Israeli front back in 1967); (d) the recent Iraq war: Leaving aside the politics, I think militarily it was brilliant, and showed the value of preparing decades in advance for future battlefields.

I could go on. I in fact am very glad that the Indians won in 1971 - otherwise we would still be stuck with managing a structurally unmanageable county. And I think in 1971 God was indeed on the side of the Indians - after all, the writing was on the wall, and the Bengladeshis did not want to be part of Pakistan any more. We Pakistanis had no right to force a people living a thousand miles away, loaded with a tons of grievances against us, to remain part of us. And, as I said in my original post - it was indeed a political victory for India. But I dont consider it a great military victory by any means, for reasons I explained. The only thing I have heard from those disagreeing with me is that there were rivers in the way of the Indian Army. Rivers can be crossed by modern armies, particularly if they have control of the air. The Pakistan Army had already been fighting the Mukti Bahini for six months before this war started - the Indian Army administered the coup de grace. 1971 proved nothing. If anything, by speeding up the nuclearization of Pakistan, it ensured that 1971 was the last time the Indians would ever dare to engage in a full scale war with Pakistan.

Long post. But these are important military matters and need to be discussed carefully. I am unable to draw maps on chowk, otherwise I would do that too. Also, if I knew how, I would also add videos from World War II in order to make this scholarly post more enjoyable to read.

PS: Why are you so concerned that you dont have a car in Karachi, or that you are 56 years old, or that your english is not King`s English?? Your wife loves you, and you seem like a great chap. So screw everything else (sorry for the bad word in the last sentence).

#70 ahmedmadani

You seem to have actually looked at history and I agree with some of your comments. However, this

[quote]
First time in history India is Unofficial Hindu Ummah.
[end-quote]

is not correct. If you look at indian freedom struggle it was multi-religous and not exclusively hindu. The Mughals had many, many hindu generals of the highest rank.
Today, am proud to say that the richest man in India, the recent winner in the womens wimbledon doubles and its president are not hindus.

Maybe you mean something else by ``Ummah``? Unfortunately, I associate it with a bunch of self-obsessed people, only interested in their own culture and ideology, full of victim-complex and deeply intolerant towards the ``others``: hindus, jews, shias, ahmedias, .... On top of it all, their ugly and mean behavior is justified with references to some scripture and tradition !!

Definitely, india is not and does not aspire to this type of ``Ummah``. Hindu and Buddhist traditions have never been exclusivist and the idea of ``we are all hindus together`` is not something that fits easily in indian traditions. I realize that VHP (Vishwa Hinsa Parishad) and ``leaders`` like Modi and Thackeray want to change that but they are on the loosing side of history.

Dear Mr. Khan,



Would you care to comment on the following article from The Asia Times?



Thanks.



Harimau



India: The games the Pentagon plays

By Sultan Shahin



NEW DELHI - An acknowledged master of psyops, the Pentagon has succeeded in conveying to India its very low opinion of the Indian army without allowing a public uproar to build up. The method it used was leaking to sections of the media bit by palatable bit a classified US government report highly damning to the Indian defense services and their policymakers.



In the first leak in early April, one United States officer was quoted as saying, ``We want a friend in 2020 that will be capable of assisting the US militarily to deal with a Chinese threat,`` thus merely implying that the Indian army was not yet fully prepared to assume the role of a US friend. But gradually, through several leaks in different sections of the press, a fuller picture of the seeming contempt in which US generals hold Indian army officers and politicians has emerged.



....

ahmadmadani#70:
``I did not follow logic of Mr. Dostmitter when he said Bangla desh victory was not significant. ``
I did not say that. Tahmed said that and I responded. In fact, I said more or less the same that you did:
``You are right about the Indian army holding all the aces in the bangladesh war. Still, the outcome would not have been a certainty but for the sound tactics and planning of Gen. Maneckshaw and his men, and of the Pakistani delusion of thinking one pakistani soldier equal to ten Indian soldiers.``
You made several statements in your article which are partially incorrect. Contrary to what the RSS people say, the Marathas did not create a hindu ummah. During the battle of Panipat against the Afghans, they had an alliance with the mughals. Their artillery chief, a muslim, was known to be the best ``topchi`` of his time. When captured, the Afghans offered to spare his life if he switched allegiance from `kafirs` to them. He refused, saying that the marathas were his men while Afghans were the foreign enemy.
And yes, the Indians are producing a large number of qualified people, but their overall literacy rate looks good only when compared to Pakistan`s. But you are right in one respect, if India keeps marching ahead economically, Pakistan`s nuclear bomb will become a meaningless asset. But there also, I see a ray of hope for Pakistan. In my opinion, nothing will concentrate the Pakistani mind better on what they are doing wrong than seeing India forge ahead.

Madani Sahib, you may not realise it or know it, but many seem to take you seriously.

Your worldview makes eminent grass-roots sense. I will suggest that you try to get hold of a book Bunker-13 by Aniruddha Bahal and maybe there may be some more understanding of why troops of both sides face each other on borders, and sometimes also troops of same side face each other on borders.

Some day the truth will be told about the business aspect of the Bangladesh freedom movement. Your analysis that a tribesman would blow up a pipeline for 100000/- dollars and then earn 1000000/- every year to guard it is very apt.

Response #67
Dear Mr. Nazarkhan.... I very much appreciate your very kind to response. I have noted your number. I will take advantage of your kind invitation at proper time. I am 56 years old and work at lower level and normally my vocabulary is full of `` ha ji , thank you sir or madam etc. It`s joy to be taken seriously. Many times its contempt shown by accomplished people for ordinary people hurts. I will say without hesitation you are gentleman. One of the best liked article here read of yours `` life with wife``. It pleasure to read how people love even when they are not youth or post youth mentally and physically. It little hard for many like me as we have not car but rarely I go with wife to beach and its very pleasant and she feels better. She is not very educated so I read for her your article and translated bit. Then she asked me do you really feel same about me. Then she asked me why you never told me. I told her our problem is we are so tired , I know you are so tired day in and day out and when i return many times from night work as soon as hit bed asleep as dead man. At least for short time due your article we appreciated married bliss.
There are practical problems of dining with well accomplished people as most of time working at low level one develops inferiority complex. As in hospitality business we do not ask difficult question. When I feel courage , will call you.

My military information is due to my boss( manager). He is retired but likes to read military books. Recently he gave me interesting book to read `` operation Baborossa`` by Paul Elrich a german so its bised for german army and has contempt for Russians as barbarians( it is more operational description book but gives idea how both armies behaved and type of operations on eastern front.. Also I read recently book given by manager `` russia at war 1941-1945 by Alexzander worth``. This gave me some idea about planning , problems etc of military campaigns.

Tahmed 32: My vocabulary of miltary is not good. Airmachine= aircraft. As i was reading above books for last 1 month in spare time at hotel reception russian and german used word airmachimes for aircraft, same with military boat. So I used same.

I did not follow logic of Mr. Dostmitter when he said Bangla desh victory was not significant.
It was the be the best moment for Indian army of defeating, moving with speed, not getting bogged at points of resistance and frog jumping towards capital. As things turned out as they were does not mean they were easy or ordinary. Even with far superior armour, mobility, great legendary leadership and total air superiority , lost moral of russian army, lack of effective leadership of russian political appointed generals and lack of huge rivers on rolling plains germans armies ( battle hardened well oiled -3 million men strong on russian front) could not achieve that fast. They had hard time crossing rivers and establishing bridgeheads. Pakistan army considers the worst defeat- that is proof.
Other thing one should note. Up to now in history till rise of maraths Muslims were victorious. Maraths demolished mughal empire and first time established unofficial ``Hindu Ummah``. Once they achieved they were defeated only when Hindu Ummah failed. British defeated Marata Warlords one at time. First time in history India is Unofficial Hindu Ummah. They may not say it but it is, as they know united thay stand. The worthwhile achievement of India in last 50 century is monumental in this aspect. Hindu Ummah is controlling more land than british controlled directly. I studied the deaths of Indians in Kargil on their ``army web``. They gave list of dead including name rank, state. You can see people died were almost proportion to population of the state ( except few like bengal and gujrat- may be nonmartial shopkeepers and babus). This unofficial Ummah is arming it self, producing enormous wealth reducing poverty, life span, humming industry,upsurge of lower classes. I was looking in matrimonial of Indian web sites men women, from all casts engineers, doctors,accountants, businessmen, girls nody is doing ba etc most are professionals -I am talking Indians in India. One state produces 35,000 engineers ( even assuming quality is poor) this has enormous implications. As in IT tech India started producing computer people they changed India. This enormous explosion of education is more dangerous to us than their fancy nuclear missiles. I take india seriously. Its not Iran or Afghanistan. Indians do not want to go back or have nostalgia for gone things ( This hindu etc just vote catching thing). It is still time to work out things. As if Non BJP govt comes in power they will not dare to make real decisions. They can talk and talk. Then they will start playing with water and world will saay nothing. China is thinking of diverting water and india and Bangla desh will suffer. I have only heard few murmur internationally. We made mistake in 1965 assuming india will not cross international border, they crossed. Time comes they will again cross . This martial race theory no army person belives. Specially people who have faught against indians like my boss do not believe this crap. They respect bravery, courage, generalship and he never takes cheap shots. See defence journal, many officers who faught candidly write about this things.

So I will suggest to be polite, civilised. Abusing, name calling does not score points, it is infantile disorer of grown up men.
We should respect the views of Mr. Romair, Nazar Khan etc.

Nazar :
Do you usually invite people who ask you questions to dinner? If so, I have many questions of my own.

Madani #66 I hope sir that you will accept Mr. Khan`s kind invitation to dinner where he will also discuss the important questions you raise about flying bombs and airmachines. I wish people would invite me to dinner to discuss my posts.

Also, I dont believe that airmachines are real, because how can a machine not fall to the ground when there is in air?? And flying air bombs and laser tanks warboats and battle plans of Pakistan GHQ are very important secrets, and also very important science matters. So please dont tell them to anyone else. Also make sure Mr. Khan orders good dessert after dinner, and does not try to save money by ordering only one plate daal with naan and plain water not coca cola.

Also, take your ex-armyman boss with you to dinner. (Mr. Khan is very happy I am thinking for him and inviting your boss to his dinner as well.)

ahmedmadani # 66

I admire your curiosity. But you have asked a bundle of questions.
If you are in Karachi - call me at 5673477 - I will invite you to a Dinner and give you all my rusted-up ideas.

Sir my inquiry is to PAF (EX)or IAF or people who know about airmachimes etc.

Are tanks not useful as before as now fast moving airmachine with zip zap laser gided bombs? Does it means always thought and faught battles in Plains of Punjab and deserts of Sindh and Raja stan are things of past ? Can a aircraft carry tank destrying( bullets?) missiles in hundreds or it can carry less than 4 to 5? Can tank commander helpless aginst aircraft totally ? I was wondering if one airmachine can carry say if 100 missiles then any blitz can be brought to stop in tracks then what is use of modern fleets of tanks or they are only meant for close distance fighting. ( I was reading autobiography of General Z A Khan regarding his campaign in Raja stan. He wrote hunters two in numbers from IAF took shots at tanks and destroyed- and battle plans also destroyed, I assume they had no laser gun bombs.in 1965 war. and not indian army- not much army prescence was there it appears or wrongly employed at wrong places). Are there air-bomb resistant tanks?

I will like some body to throw light on gone old things.
How are afghans as airforce ? If in case situation arising aghan airforce will pose challenge to pakistan A.F.? Are they rated low as indians.as airforce ? ( I have read Mr. Chuck yager rated best israeli followed by Pakistani A.F.)
How was Vietnam airforce against americans? Did russian migs used by vietnam were useful at that time?
In 1971 I was 23 years old and have seen fires at petrol tanks in karachi harbor. At that time many thought it may be flying bombs from airplanes. Indians say it was by their military boats. People always asked why boats were not attacked by F-15 jets oe fighter aircrafts can not attack on water? Whater names of aircrafts for naval boats sinking type.

In 65 we had ai superiority. Indians fighter will run away to save himself and his plane- wise move. At the same time fighting generals always wote in their books major activity of transporting tanks during day was near to impossible and had to be carried out at night, making impossible to keep deadlines for offensive in Raja stan. Does it mean Because of Punjab and Kashmir borders more aircraft there and less for desert?

India attacked Sui Gas fields , but why they never attached simple more important targets like sluices of Sakkar , Tarbela or Mangala Dams? Or they coild not due to our defensive plans.

Recent damaging of sui gas ppelines two times brought country to standstill affecting people and industry. I have seen in open relatively almost unprotected gas compression Pumping plants. I wonder why not make them underground at present indian airmachine can drop few bomb destroy pumpstation, stopping energy lines. The war is in evitable so to depend on pipe lines for enegy prudent ?

Same way gas coming from Afghanistan (TAP) and IRAN- India pipeline( i think it can not happen and we should not) can be blown easily by indian aircraft when it risers to ground. ( as trbemen blew pipe ) is is sad to have and also indian friendly Afghan warlords can blow pipe line of TAP for 100000 dollars and collect money for repair. and bring Pakistan to standstill. So india can make big loss to us easily. Also afghan warlords will go on increasing protection money ( Friendly MQM does collect Bhatta) to make pipe line costly.
We kneed chowky economic type to write about TAP or CHOWK request some body.

Thanks very much

It indeed is a pity that India is trotted out as the bogeyman to justify a bloated Pakistan army which is now twice the size of what it was before the 1971 war.

But it is a crime when the flower of Pakistani youth is periodically sacrificed to satisfy the megalomania of a few generals.

I have seen:-

a) The officer selected to lead the Pakistan Army parade in Karachi on 14th August 1947, rushing on to join the Indian Army a few days later and facing his own regiment a few months later.

b) The grandson of the most recognised North Eastern (Nagaland, Phizo) separatist that India had, dying (IED) in Baramulla, Kashmir, wearing an Indian Army uniform.

c) The ongoing relationship between serving senior Indian and Pakistani Armed Forces officers while abroad.

d) The existence of a joint IAF/PAF fighter pilot`s group in Australia. Rumours of Middlecoat surfacing have been around for decades now.

Anybody here read Bunker 13 by Anirudhha Bahl?

re: 52

it takes more than 2-3 top army men. you pretty much need all the pso`s, head of the isi + majority of corps commanders on board. the pindi brigade is 111. but that`s ok, you are a shaheen and a pretty disgruntled one at that.

re:#21 by Maharana
You should tell our ``closet mullah`` (tahmed sahib, i say this with due apologies) what happened to the decision to send troops to Iraq. The latest is: India is not sending the troops. After much opposition and introspection, India has decided to say Sorry but NO. What about Pak? Mushy committed soon after Camp David to send troops. There was no debate. NO debate is necessary. In Pak, Army has the country and not the other way round.
Sridhar

hnasir # 57

You are absolutelt right about the perks etc.

Indian threat is projected in a manner to create a bigger Army.

In my opinion, there is no external threat to Pakistan.

The two threats to its security are both internal: (a) Military`s meddling in politics (b) Mullas meddling in politics.

ijaz_gul #45: I think you misunderstood my remarks, or I did not state them correctly, perhaps.

I am the biggest fan of the Pakistani military soldier - the sepoy to the rank of Colonel. I have lost quite a few close friends to military deaths. There is on one in Pakistan whom I have more respect for than the jawan sitting on the border, or the pilot risking his life. IN term of dedication to their land, these guys are a different breed from the rest of us. I say this as someone who once belonged to this breed, and no longer does. So I understand their dedication to the land very clearly.

Only a special person can risk his life to protect others. This is true for soldiers of all countries. These guys (mostly in their 20s and early 30s) are protecting our families, while we are living it up in North America, and (ironically) criticizing them. In my opinion, they deserve our gratitude, not our criticism. My life as an IT professional abroad is far easier than my life in the military.

The Pakistani soldier faces more risks than most soldiers of the world, since he always faces a much larger force. That is why survey after survey by in Pakistan, and by international organizations like the recent Davos survey, ranks the military as the most respected organization in the country. And no one, including the most opportunistic politicians ever criticizes the jawan and young officers. They only criticize the Generals (which I do also).

Something tends to happen around the rank of Brigadier. The same dedicated Colonels start transitioning into beaurecratic Generals, who are no different from their civilian counterparts. Even worse, these Generals end up hogging all the resources of the Army, leaving the rest of the force living hand to mouth.

There are very very few intellectuals in the command branches of the military, i.e. flying, infantry, armour, etc. However, most of these individuals consider themselves to be intellectuals when they become Generals (or when they retire). One cannot, all of a sudden, become an intellectual just by getting promoted or by retiring. It requires a certain amount of IQ and education and experience. My friends in PIA and other civilian areas are as stupid (or as intelligent) now as they were when they left the military. And I have friends who I know will become Generals someday, who have never had an original thought in their lives.

This does not mean the military does not have intellectuals. There are some extremely qualified and world-travelled officers in the Engineering, Medical etc. type of branches. I have quite a few coursemates in the military who have MS and Ph.D. degrees and are brighter than nearly all my friends in Silicon Valley. However, these guys aren`t in the command branches - maybe because they don`t want to, or are too scared to go into battle (Army engineers do go). They are professors at training institutions, surgeons, researchers in Kahuta, etc. Thus they have not developed command skills and will not become Generals.

I think the criteria for becoming a General needs to be changed, since times have changed. There needs to be combination of academic and command experience. And the academic experience should be in good civilian universities, preferably abroad. However, there are hardly any individuals in the command branches, who could handle that kind of academic load.

I never went to any Defence college so I can`t comment on what is taught there. I doubt it is of very high standard, because hardly any of the academic institutions in Pakistan, providing executive level training, has anything of high standard. Infact I don`t know of any such institution in Pakistan. What I do know is that the training institutions at the junior ranks are quite good. NUST is ranked as the best university in Pakistan by Asian magazines, and one of the top 20 in Austral-Asia. College of Aeronautical Engg. has a higher standard of students than most US universities. Army Medical College is one of the best in Pakistan. The flying training for cadets in PAF is world famous. I have been to some of these places and can speak from experience.

However, the standards for senior officers need to be greatly improved. And the pays of junior officers need to be greatly improved, because anyone who has some qualifications will leave the military (like I did) and like many of friends want to. I cannot blame them, since they are so poorly looked after in comparison to my colleagues in the civilian world.

I would say Pakistan has some of the most dedicated young officers and jawans in the world, and some very good training institutions at the juior level. And probably some of the most incompetent Generals (specifically in the Army) in the world. I have noticed that about the Colonel level people reach a plateau, and never seem to evolve beyond that. I don`t think this changes whether one remains in the military or resigns.

Jay # 46

I always mention it. Some time back, my whole article titled ``Preventing Military Take Overs`` appeared on Chowk. Please read it. Even Post # 47 says so. Incidently, poor Air Force and Navy play no role in it.

The Defence College syllabus should be drastically revised to contain only the military matters - otherwise you will continue to churn ourt semi-educated national planners from military like me.

No extraordinary courage is required to state this fact.

Ansari # 48

You are one person I will be happy to be stranded with on a lonely island. Listen to your poetry and watch with amusement the boats of some fiery interactors pass by.

Anything to do with military or religion is a good dish for the Chowkees. So far I have been avoiding it - this not being my favourite subject. I just let this one pass in.

Dear Nazar,

Would you be kind enough and opine on the following:

Our basic problem is not the Army itself; but the bloated corps of some 200 Maj. Generals, Lt. Generals and above.

The Army is an organized institution and its size is determined by the Indian threat as percieved in the context of Kashmir.

The size of the Army perhaps justifies about 30 2-Star+ Generals; we had 22 of them during the 1971 war.

But instaed of 30 we have 200 of the suckers. Most of them are not needed. You will find them manning useless directorates in the GHQ, leading formations that exist on paper only, or ``auctioned`` into civil institutions from PIA, KESC, Customs, Wapda, Irrigation, Cricket Board etc. Some of the special favorites are sent to FC and Rangers to spin in some more cash.

The ``Legal`` perks of a Major General have an intrisic Value of about RS 6.5 Million per year. In addition, a Brigadier is entitled to 2 Plots of Land with current market Value of about Rs 10 Million. Upon each ``Star`` promotion he is allotted even more land and other goodies.

In addition, they skim away on average about 30-40% of the Defense procurement Budget of some $ 350 M every year. Thats almost $ 90 M of bribes every year. Assuming that about 30% are monetarily honest; this amounts of an average Black Money income of Rs 35 M per head every year.

These days most of the promotions take place on the sex appeal of the officer`s wife; or his ability to procure women for the carnal pleasures of the promotion Board members or selected 3-Star mentors. Lt Gen Zarrar Azeem, Corps Commander lahore is considered to be an encylclopedia of the prostitution and call-girls industry ... Gen Muasharraf savors the pleasures of Lahore for at least 2 weekends a month. Some of the Brigadiers begin arranging ``Encounters`` between their wives and seniors at a very early stage ... giving rise to some comic (true) anecdotes .. but they must be censored here.

The growing role of American Military and FBI in Pakistani establishment is also a serious cause of concern; as some of our generals are virtually on their payroll; or captives to their interests. Our Generals are endowed with ``Canine`` sense of Loyality to the white skin and are happy to go to any extent to please their new found Masters. Amongst the most disgraceful in this department is Maj Gen Sadaqat of FC Quetta.

The legal take home income of a Maj Gen is about $ 600; about Rs 33,000 after deductables and Tax. Some of these johnies afford the education of two kids in the USA coting them a minimum of $ 50,000 every year. But they just dont seem to have any problems with that.

http://www.balochistanpost.com/reply.asp?Page=1&ID=4913

A little bit more:

An interesting point put forward by some Raja Ibrahim on the discussion forum of the SAT. “By the way how can one respect/like or not hate those who can ignite an ammunition depot in the middle of a city of 1 million to cover up their own loot. Yeah, I am talking about Ojhri Camp. See, India (and Pakistan too) avoided civilian targets during 1965 and 1971. But our own generals didn’t mind putting a big city on fire themselves.
And you still talk about everything else but not the real crooks and have the courage/guts to defend/condone them.
I am sad, extremely sad to observe this inexplicable callousness.”

Before some of gentlemen start their typical emotional blackmailing about soldiers defending the motherland, risking their lives and so on, I would like to pre-emptively add:

I have absolutely NOTHING against poor guys standing guard on our borders while we sleep. I SALUTE them. Actually, some people tend to forget the tragic facts that those who lay down their lives on the borders are not who get awards and plots. In some cases we don’t even accept their dead bodies (remember NLI and Kargil). Many true Shaheeds normally don’t even get proper burial.
As someone wrote on South Asia Tribune, begum of a general with aching back has much higher priority at a CMH than that of a hawaldar from the LOC with Indian bullet in his chest.
See, that hawaldar will be put in a stinking jawans’ ward, while civilian drunk teenager son of a general will get the best possible treatment in VIP awards. Can anyone deny?

In short, a handful of senior officers, those very individuals who are very fond of playing messiahs, are in reality the biggest curse for the nation.

Alephnull #91 Thanks for writing. From the tone of your post, you are clearly upset because I have questioned some dearly held convictions on your part concerning the 1971 war. You have however ignored the entire context of my post and reduced it to the petty India-Pakistan oneupmanship that goes on in chowk. You have also ignored the rationale I presented, and instead simply presented the rationale (which incidentally I consider to be quite weak) for your conviction that 1971 was some kind of a brilliant military victory.

I am perfectly content with you retaining your convictions concerning 1971, and will not waste your time or mine any further by engaging in what would (based on the tone of your post as explained above) be an inane discussion.

Jay Bhai # 46

Believe me, myself and Romair have never been involved in any coup.

It is done by the top 2-3 Army men and No 110 Brigade Commander based in Pindi. The coup procedure is well rehearsed. Prime Minister is arrested along with few key ministers. Telephone exchange, Radio and TV is taken in possession. And patriotic songs begin on media.

Shareefuddin Peerzada is called to prepare the ``Proclamation Statement`` to be announced on the media. (Shareefuddin charges Rs 1,000,000 for it. Waste of money. Old statement can be photocopied)

Navy, Air Force, rest of Army and poor souls like me and Romair get the news from radio.
Opposition is happy and distributes sweets. The wife of the Prime Minister enters a writ in Supreme Court. The judges get an extension and coup is validated. It is same story every time.

So please reconsider sending me and Romair to gallows just because we have spent a few years in military and were ekking out a living. We have moved on to the new pastures and new life. It is my third profession. Though in polite words, your hatred is well reflected in my article.

Incidently, what do you do for a living?

lately Indians and Afgans have teamed up to sponsor terrorism in Pakistan. Pakis are shouting blue murder. What`s up with that?

It seems Chowk is full of ex-paki military men - the eminent products from the esteemed defence college. ( How come we don`t see any such species from the Indian side in here? ) . So any thoughts on what`s going on? I mean Afgan was supposed to be some kind stretegic depth for Paki army. A brotherly nation that has suddenly turned step-motherly and given pakis a boot where it hurts most. And on top of that - it has teamed up with kafur hindu India.

Why blame afganis? Look at another brotherly nation , Iran. They too are sleeping with the same kafur. what the heck is going on guys? I mean , all you brilliant paki military officers running around with brilliant strategies for propelling the whole Ummah to giddy heights of world dominance - but no other brotherly nation gives a hoot! it seems nobody likes you guys anymore.

what is going on?

nazar:
Thanks for some superb insights into the minds of the people who matter in Pakistan today. No wonder you found yourself uncomfortable in that environment. I suspect that the military aspect of your article are probably true of the Indian army as well.

tahmed:
You are right about the Indian army holding all the aces in the bangladesh war. Still, the outcome would not have been a certainty but for the sound tactics and planning of Gen. Maneckshaw and his men, and of the Pakistani delusion of thinking one pakistani soldier equal to ten Indian soldiers.
But you are right about the long-term consequences. Indira Gandhi`s action in Bangladesh was wrong on strategic, geopolitical as well as moral grounds for India.

Nazar,

Intelligent and excellently written. Enjoyed it very much.

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#44
But in my opinion no one else is doing anything either. Lost 3-4 wars and using up of over 50% of national budget in last 56 years is not much of an achievement.

Truer words were never spoken.

Nazar sahab,

Urdue? LOL!

I haven`t read the article lekin ek qarz aapka mujh pe abhi udaar hai. . .insha-Allah jald hi. . .

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HEIGHT OF ABSURDITY,

As usual pakistanis are on a pretentious discussion on the military training in pakistan, with ocassional comparison with that of india. With so much of military men on chowk, no one has dared to touch up on that aspect pf pak military traini8ng that promts the generals to take over the country.

It would have been of some insight if one could identify the training process where where the notion of military that has a country is inculcated in the trainig.

The pathetic romairs and nazzar will not dare to mention that.

#33 by Romair
By luck and chance you quit the Army as a captain and found early success. So you tend to see the financial affluence amongst the officer corps from the window of your richness. I would tend to differ. The houses of Army officers are much neater, cleaner and imaginatively laid out than most of their civilian peers. You would alawys find a well laid out exclusive sitting room and a tidy presentation even if it only a glass of water. Your reference to eat outs like Pizza Hut betrays your level of richness. Even a person earning in the range of at least 50,000 in a month cannot be a frequent visitor. True armed forces officers cannot frequent it too often, but that does not affect their professionalism or attitude. Attitude is something generic. It is a constant. The level of spending remains constant to the level of affluence. A poor man if honest will remain so even if he strikes gold.

Yes a level of compartmentation did take place due to Saudisation during the 80s, but invariably most of the nouvelle rich were sorted out by the system itself. Those who were ingenuine invariably got superceded and have since joined the veterans ranks.

I remeber having read that it is the destiny of every professional soldier to lie in wait for a day that may never come and to be prepared when it does even at the peril of his life. No profession gets as close to the ideals of professionalism as a soldier as he is required to scarifice the ultimate; even his life. Just like catholic priests who practice celibacy so as to devote maximmum time to their congregation, too much riches are apt to distract the professionalism of some soldiers. Yet we find many super rich officers who volunteer in the hardiest of places with pride. Money or no money is secondary.

Let us not forget the gallantary displayed by our young officers in Kargil. Most have gone unsung. Officer to Jawan ratio in this war is startling and perhaps the highest in the world. Those still serving are since in different places, hardly anyone propogating a macho image. This is why I agreed with the conclusions of Nazar. Perhaps our young officer is amonst the most professional. This erosion subsequently has more to do with the approach to strategy and books like the `Conduct of War` that are misleading carrying out de education. All armies think alike and what makes the difference is the technology and the group traditions like being colonial, professional, revolutionary or a praetorian army.

Yes for those searching prestige in society, army may have lost its attraction. Such people are ready to forsake their citizen rights to get into uncle sam`s boots. They are a class in themselves.

Till such time our civil society does not metamorphise, attitudes to fixation and traditions will not change. So we will continue to learn from the past and live in it.

Ijaz-gul # 32

National strength is no more a function of militaries. National strength now means a sumtotal of national cohesiveness, poltical stability, economy, industrial growth, diplomacy and so on.

Sr # 28

Your intelligence showed that I was right. He is right that I did not do anything. In that salary, that is best I could do. Military was never my piece of cake. Nor, in fact, the profession of flying. I would have loved to continue my studies in a civil universirt for my self-actualization. But in my opinion no one else is doing anything either. Lost 3-4 wars and using up of over 50% of national budget in last 56 years is not much of an achievement. On top of it, ruining the national political system and bringing a bad name to the country. At least I never took any cuts or commissions. I think it is better if we stick to the issues and not personalities. I have too much information on this subject to throw mud. Wherever I name the personalities, it is where their personal agendas/views have harmed the national interest.

Dullabhatti # 30

My name in urdue means gift.

Romair # 31

Overall, I think the priorities have changed as from the past. Now the priority is promotion, perks and plots. Professionalism comes later.

#33 by Romair
By luck and chance you quit the Army as a captain and found early success. So you tend to see the financial affluence amongst the officer corps from the window of your richness. I would tend to differ. The houses of Army officers are much neater, cleaner and imaginatively laid out than most of their civilian peers. You would alawys find a well laid out exclusive sitting room and a tidy presentation even if it only a glass of water. Your reference to eat outs like Pizza Hut betrays your level of richness. Even a person earning in the range of at least 50,000 in a month cannot be a frequent visitor. True armed forces officers cannot frequent it too often, but that does not affect their professionalism or attitude. Attitude is something generic. It is a constant. The level of spending remains constant to the level of affluence. A poor man if honest will remain so even if he strikes gold.

Yes a level of compartmentation did take place due to Saudisation during the 80s, but invariably most of the nouvelle rich were sorted out by the system itself. Those who were ingenuine invariably got superceded and have since joined the veterans ranks.

I remeber having read that it is the destiny of every professional soldier to lie in wait for a day that may never come and to be prepared when it does even at the peril of his life. No profession gets as close to the ideals of professionalism as a soldier as he is required to scarifice the ultimate; even his life. Just like catholic priests who practice celibacy so as to devote maximmum time to their congregation, too much riches are apt to distract the professionalism of some soldiers. Yet we find many super rich officers who volunteer in the hardiest of places with pride. Money or no money is secondary.

Let us not forget the gallantary displayed by our young officers in Kargil. Most have gone unsung. Officer to Jawan ratio in this war is startling and perhaps the highest in the world. Those still serving are since in different places, hardly anyone propogating a macho image. This is why I agreed with the conclusions of Nazar. Perhaps our young officer is amonst the most professional. This erosion subsequently has more to do with the approach to strategy and books like the `Conduct of War` that are misleading carrying out de education. All armies think alike and what makes the difference is the technology and the group traditions like being colonial, professional, revolutionary or a praetorian army.

Yes for those searching prestige in society, army may have lost its attraction. Such people are ready to forsake their citizen rights to get into uncle sam`s boots. They are a class in themselves.

Till such time our civil society does not metamorphise, attitudes to fixation and traditions will not change. So we will continue to learn from the past and live in it.

CONTAINING THE CRESCENT,

If the pak trainers have any sense, they should look at the emerging political situation, the global task of containing the crescent from turkey to malaysia. Indonesia is taken care of by the australians. India and israle are the only countries who can perform the task and in that context india should send troups to iraq. Pakistan, the source of the most virulent form of islam, is almost surrounded with indian invlovement in afghanistan and iran and the central asian countries. With the building of road through iran to central asia, pakistan will be well and truly irrelevant. The central asia to pakistan gas pipeline has been abandoned by ADB because of no support from india. The LNG deal with iran is signed, ruling out the iran pakistan india pipe line.
At last the task of containing pakistans virulent strain, a little like SARS, is full on. No pak military men have the coirrage to accept the reality. nor the sihns that pakistan is on an iraquisation path.

Romair & Mohar 11

Air War College in Karachi teaches ``Aerial Strategy``. It has students from three services and also foreign students. (I have done this course and rather well)

Naval War College in Lahore (Navy wanted presence in Lahore) teaches ``Naval Strategy`` and it has students from three services including foreign students.

National Defence College in Islamabad (first it was in Pindi) runs two courses - ``National Defence Course`` and ``Armed Forces War Course``.

National Defence Course has students from three services, foreign students and a few Bueracrats from Government. They study National and Defence policy.

Armed Forces War Course studies Military Strategy (Army, Air orce, Navy). It has students from three services. (I did this course and I guess not too well )

The Quetta Staff College conducts basic army-orientated course. This has students from three services and a lot of foreign students.

The Instructors are called Directing Staff.

Latest drama is that Defence College is running a 5-day seminar for Naazims and politicians to teach them the National and Defence strategy.

It is like putting cart before the horse. The Parliament Defence committee should call the services`` representatives for briefing in the parliament like it is done all over the world.

The Defence College syllabus should be drastically revised to contain only the military matters - otherwise you will continue to churn ourt semi-educated national planners from military like me.

Nazar Khan wrote:

``I can never forget the colourful and scintillating dance and music show that they arranged for us at the Sonar Gaon Hotel. As West Pakistanis, we could never match their rich cultural heritage. Our group leader, Javid Nasir (latter ISI boss) sat with his back towards the show during the entire evening because of his misplaced interpretation of our faith. I thought that this was being extremely rude to our hosts.``

Javid Nasir was at least as philistine and boorish as he was rude.

Is this the same Defence College you guys are talking about. This guys says it is some kind of white elephant!!

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm

``These days, however, another entity seems almost on the verge of beating the hotels at this game: the National Defence College in Islamabad, one of the leading white elephants in a city abounding in this species.
``

Just to have an idea of the intellectual level of many of our star officers

Interview of Lt Gen Javed Ashraf Qazi to BBC world is available at:
http://www.satribune.com/archives/nov4_10_02/opinion_javedashraf.htm

Scroll down to get that audio file:
I strongly recommend you people to listen to him. You will be amused. You people will not believe your ears, I promise.

And if still not convinced:

Three stars
By Ardeshir Cowasjee
Dawn
Sunday, 12 January 2003

Javed Nasir, a retired lt-general of the Pakistan army, in October 2002 filed a complaint under Section 6(a)(b)(c), 8 & 11 of the Anti-Terrorist Act, 1997, before the Anti-Terrorism Court at Lahore.

`The complainant` proclaims himself to be one ``who symbolizes Tableeghi Jamaat`s most prominent member with international fame and reputation of the most scrupulously honest individual,`` and claims that in 1992 he ``became an instant international figure.`` The `Respondents/Accused` are: ``Mir Shakilur Rahman, editor-in-chief of the Jang Group of News, Lahore,`` and three others of his Lahore office.....

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20030112.htm

wanna more ??
Just drop a line ... i will post hundreds of more stories.

Romair:
yaar most of your analysis start at your salary as F/L and end at the financial affluence you have succeeded to gain since leaving PAF. Don’t you think this massive recycling of arguments is getting boring?
There must be (and there are) lot many more aspects to military affairs too. Think about it next time you submit a reply on these lines.

RE #35 by khamkhwa.
I b