The Defence College Experience

Re: # 37
--Hopeless for Romair hun.
Bring your hopes down cuz` Romair`s base of argument is not shakin at all!

LOL

re: fuzair

cheema was a ds at staff college around 77/78 (?). he was definitely a brilliant officer and earmarked for the general staff. the better ones usually go for the war course instead of the ndc course which is more of a consolation thingee. i think you go for the war course first and then become ds at staff college - but i doubt if there`s a hard and fast rule about this - the ms has to take into account all sort of other things also. i don`t remember when cheema did his war course (before or after the stint at quetta) - don`t know about gulfaraz - what were his arms and when was he in quetta? as for zia - he was in my opinion quite a sick individual - if you were a brigadier or below the rank of a brigadier, you posed no threat to him - all promotions to maj. gen. and above used to be approved by him personally. many of those ``rebel officers`` at quetta were promoted to brig. and given good posts. those were the early days - bhutto was behind bars but still alive - and zia was moving with caution - i guess he was hoping that those chaps would eventually become part of the herd, but most of them retired as brig. i can`t think of any who made it to the rank of maj. gen.
right before executing bhutto, zia sent a questionaire to all formation commanders - brigade and div commanders (corps commanders ofcourse were already with him) asking for the opinion of the commander and his troops on the following: should martial law be lifted? and should bhutto be hanged? you can imagine what happened to the careers of the officers who gave unpleseant replies. there was actually one commander who literally asked his battalion commanders to call darbar and get the opinion of the troops :-) - during the eighties a lot of incompotent and corrupt officers were promoted just so that zia could keep them under his firm control - there are too many to list - i think fazal-i-haq and akhtar abdur rehman were probably at the top the ladder - it was quite prevalant in all services at that time - lots of stories about mrs. & acm anwar shameem - but you probably know all the stories anyway. the good thing is that they have faded away and i hope the likes of begs and nasirs are being sent home by the time they become majors.

Re: r.a. janjua #98

Thank you. Glad to be back.

I think you might be correct, Sarwar Cheema did resign his commission but I am sure that he was at NDC doing the War Course--which meant that he was marked as a high-flyer. Since I think he would have been a DS at Staff College before doing the War Course, this then doesn`t make sense. Why send someone who is a known piplia to the War Course? When was a DS? Mid 1970s?

I knew Col. Gulfaraz slightly; met him when he was in the States doing his Ph.D in Petroleum Engineering. He had been approved for Brigadier when he asked Zia at a Staff College dinner what it felt like to sign the death warrant of the man who had been his mentor, etc. etc. Gulfaraz liked to call himself a Brig since he was approved for promotion but was retired before he put on the rank. Was he one of the group of Staff College officers who were ``sorted out?`` Or is this a different group.

Re: the Niazi debate
I knew quite well (family connection) the G1 Ops Eastern Command during Niazi`s tenure as GoC there. He told me that several times he asked Niazi to approve plans for troop redeployment, defense of Dacca (and other large towns), contingency plans, etc. Niazi pooh-poohed every suggestion; said it smacked of defeatism; he was confident that the troops would be able to repel any attack; Chinese and US help was forthcoming; etc etc. Now, a lot of this could be self-serving post-facto nonsense but knowing what kind of a man he was, I believe him. Niazi was perhaps the worst Lt.Gen to have out there but he was a great ``commander type.``

If Dacca had been defended, a negotiated surrender was possible. Anyway, the rest is history.

Pmishra # 106,

Excellent observations!!!

pmishra2 #106 You points are valid. The question I was discussing is, as you correctly point out, the low level (or narrow) one in terms only of military actions. I dont think there is anything wrong in focussing on a narrow issue alone on chowk (God knows we have enough generalities tossed around when it comes to political discussions on chowk).

In terms of the broader political question, like you I too noted in my earlier post on this board that regardless of how one views the military actions, politically 1971 was indeed a victory for India. And indeed it goes to the credit of Indira Gandhi that she did not try to retain control over Bangladesh once it became an independent country. And I agree that our generals made a mess out of Afghanistan with their backing of one faction (the taliban) over others rather than trying to get these different factions to come together as the international community is trying to do now.

I would trade our generals for yours (who stick to military matters only, rather than trying to determine the political direction of the country) any day.

nazar #104 The way i understand, the basic objective in any military conflict is almost always one of preserving one`s forces while destroying enemy forces. Gaining or losing ground is important only insofar as it affects this objective.

I too recall that Yahya kept pushing Niazi to hold on to the political objective (i.e. not to yield an inch of territory), but once the Indian army attacked there seems no question that Niazi should have focussed on the military objective alone and pulled his forces back. No doubt somewhere along the way it became impossible to pull back forces anyway (given partisan actions in disrupting transport by the mukti bahini). But there is plenty of blame to go around on 1971, and not one head has rolled. I dont mind the military defeat actually (who cares, except for the many lives on all sides that were lost), but the lack of accountability for the manner in which the Bengali population was treated by our army - THAT is what Niazi and his friends should have been charged with as soon as they returned to Pakistan. This is the real shame of 1971 for us as Pakistanis. Not the military defeat.

#103 tahmed32

The real indian achievement w.r.t. Bangladesh is that India has allowed Bangladesh to follow its own path. To the credit of Bangladesh this path has been one of democracy; admittedly, like indian democracy this also has a large number of flaws (extreme poverty, attacks on minorities).

At the same time, there is no question that there has been huge progress since 1971 and especially when comparied to Pakistan today. There is no doubt in my mind that Bangladesh will be intact, little more prosperous and closer in spirit and style to Malaysia or India by 2020. One cannot say the same for certain other countries in india`s neighborhood.

I would say this is the real victory for India. It helped liberate a neighboring country from an oppressive regime but it did not destabilize it or destroy it. Low-level arguments about paki army vs. indian army miss the point. One need only look at Afghanistan to understand an alternative path for Bangladesh.

r.a.janjua #98 Many of the civil war battlefields (and indeed the revolutionary war battlefield at Yorktown as well) are indeed very well preserved. At Gettysburg, a lot of the vegetation has been restored to what it was at the time of the battle. One can actually re-trace the actual battle action - walk across the wheat field of Pickett`s charge at Gettysburg for example, and see for oneself how easy it was for the southerners to think the artillery preceding the charge had destroyed northern defenses when in fact the shelling had been largely ineffective, thereby changing Pickett`s charge to a bloodbath for the southerners, thus changing the tide of the battle that changed the tide of the war. Next time you should also visit Antietem, if you havent done so already - 19,000 men died on a single day in what was probably one of the fiercest battles that has ever taken place. No wonder there are so many civil war buffs in this country - they can re-live history for themselves.

Unlike US, one does not find battlefields so well preserved in Europe I think (due to lack of open spaces). In Pakistan, I think we have a number of important battlefields, but given our other unfortunate problems I guess we do not have the resources (at least not today) to restore and preserve them. In Multan, e.g., a couple of years ago I was casually told by someone that Alexander the Great received an arrow wound at the spot we were passing by. The Multan battle was not only fierce but significant in that it marked the turning point for Alexander`s conquests that had started in Greece. Someday hopefully we will have such battlefields also preserved, and the battle actions explained, as well as they do in the US.

harish_hyd #101 I have pointed out many times on chowk to many things that India can be proud of - the development of democratic institutions in a country of 1 billion people is a major major achievement; the lack of meddling of the military in politics; the IITs; secularism (tarnished no doubt by both the muslim family laws on the one hand and the rise of hindu extremism on the other, but nevertheless still present); as well as many aspects of Indian culture (not just movies either).

So, if you feel that I always give a negative spin to India then I think you are wrong in your feelings. I have a right to my views based on my understanding of the situation, and my understanding of 1971 is that it was not such a great military victory. I have been personally attacked by a couple of your disappointed compatriots as a result, but they have not presented any convincing arguments to reject what I wrote.

Also, can you claim, based on your posts on chowk, to have tried to be as balanced in your views on India-Pakistan relations and interactions and in your appreciation of Pakistani culture as I am able to say above??

This thread is coming to an End. Thanks every one for a quality feedback.

Tehmed32 # 92

I differ with your second paragraph. This was a classic example of why the Politicians should make the political decision and military decision should be left to the Generals.

In this specific situation, the issue was hot at the UN. Only a holding out time of about 2 weeks was required before the world community could get a ceasfire between India and Pakistan and a possible retention of East Pakistan in some form with Pakistan.

A political leader would have given a decision ``Hold East Pakistan or at the minumum Dacca for 2 weeks``. And then left it to the Army how it does it. By holding out at choke points or fortress defence of Dacca.

Since Yahya khan himself was a General - his mindset was military ``not losing an inch`` and was micro managing the military strategy sitting 1000 miles away.

Indians politicians knew the UN situation and rightly went for the kill - to get Dacca quickly and sabotage any UN resolution of ceasefire.

So in the last days, East Pakistan became Bangladesh because of Bhuttos greed (having torn the earlier Polish ceasefire resolution) and Yahya`s incompetence. More some other time.

re: 100

http://www.cr.nps.gov/history/online_books/mana/map1.jpg

#92 by tahmed32 on July 16, 2003 8:37am PT

[So, as i said earlier: it was a war of the incompetents, with the more incompetent general surrendering.]

Which, in other words means that the BETTER Army won. Trust Tahmed to put a negative spin on any Indian accomplishment (one of the swiftest and the most decisive military victories in recent times). Which proves that he is true-blooded Paki masquerading as a patriotic American.

Ref stuka #96

[Harimau: Are you in DC/Virginia area as well????? Damn!!]

Well, if I were there I would invite Mr. Nazar Hyatt Khan & family to dinner. Used to live there (Silver Spring, Gaithersburg, Reston, Potomac). Still have good friends and try to visit there once a year.

Ref tahmed32 #94

I was wondering how you got your wife to stop visiting the Manassas mall!

You need to stop being so serious all the time!

Ref stuka #89

[ But now the Mountain is coming to Mohammad and we can meet right here. :) ]

Surely you could have chosen a more felicitous phrase.

Beware: fatwa closing in rapidly!

re: 81

welcome back fuzair!
if my memory serves me right, ghulam sarwar cheema was not kicked out of the army - he resigned his commission to protest martial law. i personally know quite a few army officers who did that. cheema caught zia`s attention while he was a ds at staff college - that`s right around the time when martial law was imposed. there were many officers along with cheema who openly protested the imposition of martial law at quetta - which resulted in zia saab`s famous order to the commandant asking him ``to sort out these rebel officers``. what i know of gen. nishat - he would never have allowed those taping sessions at ndc your friend talks about. besides i am not sure why you would want to do that - an officer`s opinions and reputation, other news/views in the armed forces travel quite quickly by just word of mouth.


re: tahmed
i am a great fan of the civil war myself. had a chance once to see some of the battlefields - manassas, gettysburg, and there are couple of them right around the fredericksburg area - have you seen ken burn`s civil war series done for pbs. he did a nice job.

TAhmed: Bhai, I thought you were Canadian??!!??

Harimau: Are you in DC/Virginia area as well????? Damn!!

harimau #93

I did not say manassas.
I said ``major civil war battlefields``.
Manassas is not the only major civil war battlefield.

Ergo: duh-uh.

Ref tahmed32 #92

[The US civil war is another fascinating war i think, and i have visited all the major civil war battlefields in our area (until my wife decided enough was enough).]

How did THAT happen? After all, the mall at Manassas has been built on the battlefield of the battle at Manassas!

Nazar #83 I grew up in military cantonments, and have plenty of folks in the military (father, father-in-law, uncles, cousins, nephews, even a granduncle who fought in France in WWI, losing three fingers in a trench, and who told us how the pay was Rs. 10 and you were expected to bring your own horse). I am a certified armchair military guy though - but have enough interest in the subject that my wife thinks that all men are afflicted with some genetic problem that causes them to be fascinated by war. I read books when I can (one of the earliest was in class 8 when i finished a 1000 page 19th century published book written on Napoleon`s campaigns that was written by a chap - Abbott - who actually met napoleon. the latest was a book i read a four months back on the Bataan Death March plus subsequent liberation of the prisoners that is a fascinating read). The US civil war is another fascinating war i think, and i have visited all the major civil war battlefields in our area (until my wife decided enough was enough).

Also read up a bit on the 1971 war and discussed with participants (my father-in-law used to visit Bangladesh in those fateful days between march and december 1971 and would meet all the Niazis and others there and had some interesting things to tell about their mindset - which he did not appreciate at all i may add).

I understand that a basic problem was that the pak army had two strategies, one driven by political goals (and meant not yielding an inch of ground in bangladesh) and the other by military goals (and meant consolidating army by moving troops within a defense perimeter around Dhaka). The political strategy was geared to fighting the mukti bahini, while the military one was supposed to replace it in case the indian army attacked. The switch never took place, and indian army simply by-passed the troops scattered around the country and the rest is history. So, as i said earlier: it was a war of the incompetents, with the more incompetent general surrendering.

stuka #89 ``Any other Chowkies in the DC/ Virginia area?``

Moi. tauheedahmed@hotmail.com

Fuzair: Welcome back.

Fuzair: Guess my previous post got missed. Welcome back!!

Nazar: I just read your post about your vacation in Virginia in your ILog. I dunno how much sense it makes to publish your phone number there when an email would suffice (just from a safety perspective)


Anyways, I live in DC. Would definitely like to meet up. My email address is pvohra@yahoo.com

Any other Chowkies in the DC/ Virginia area? I was thinking of going to Nazar`s place in Kkarachi for dinner. But now the Mountain is coming to Mohammad and we can meet right here. :)

Madani Sahab,

Believe me, your post is much more interesting than the posts of some of your more educated compatriots. I would have loved to interact personally with you. Unfortunately I`d need a visa for that. Keep posting. They make Chowk a lively place.

Warm Regards,
Harish

Madani sahab: please mera bhi number likh lain; whenever you have time, would love to sit down and talk with you. 0300-2271678. aur isko istimaal karne ke liya courage waghaira ki koi zaroorat nahin; mujhe aap se milke khushi ho gi.

Harimou: Nazar is a bit too kind. The main problem of the Indian Armed Forces, as correctly pointed out by Americans, is the tight control or rather the stranglehold the bureaucrats have over uniformed services.

Now, the IAS`s mantra is ``civil control of armed forces`` which is exactly how it should be. However, the civil control means that the armed forces should reported to the elected representatives. There can at most be a bureaucrat per service to do liasion, such as secretary of the Army, Air Force etc. In India however, the MIN of Defense is composed entirely of IAS people who form an unbridgeable layer between the politicians and the military. In actual terms it means that the Armed Forces are stuck in inertia, be it in procurement, transfers or organizational changes at a macro level.

In India and Pakistan, money has been made on procurement. There is no difference at all. One hand it ismilitary officers that make money and on the other it is IAS. However. the crucial difference is that procurement procedures meet the needs of the Pakistan Army whereas in India constant delays have lead to unnecessary degradation of preparedness.

Nakhok # 82

Without going into long theories, let me give you my cold-blooded bottom lines in all cases:

1947 - If the tribal Lashkars had been sent, they should not have been stopped mid-way. Wrong political decision by Pakistan. India simply occupied the Muslim states within its territory. That was perhaps the only military solution ever possible in Kashmir case. After that there was none.

1962 - It was an oppurtunity for Pakistan to exploit just as India exploited the 1971 oppurtunity. Pakistan made the wrong political decision by not jumping into the war with China. No such oppurtunity will ever come in future.

1965 - A completely stupid war initiated by Pakistan that put Pakistan on the downhill out of which it has not recovered as yet. War outcome was a stalemate. For Pakistan, the day was saved by the Air Force which had good equipment.

1971 - A complete political and a miltary failure by Pakistan.

Kargil - A stupid action by Pakistan with no political foresight. Lost a great deal in terms of its image in the world, damaged the Kashmiri cause and finally lost militarily.

India`s Srilankan adventure and Tamils has been its one mistake. But it recovered in time and now never talks on this issue.

The future lies in forgetting all the above. Making an Economic SAARC Union and gradually progressing towards a political Union.

Harimou # 77

The US report is based on their own national interest. In Pakistan, they can directly deal with Army and get the thing regulaized from the Civil Government, if that happens to be different.

In India, there is a proper system of complete civilian control over the military, as it should be. The issue has to be resolved at the Political level before translating it into some action by the military.

Otherwise, there is absolutely no difference in man-to-man comparison or efficiency - both are from the same stock. Although Bangla Desh was primarily a political failure by Pakistan but even here the Pakistan Army used a poor strategy and the Indian Army used the correct strategy. (Pakistan Army spread itself too thin in Pockets - Indian Army simply bypassed them and reached Dacca)

So the US report is nothing more than what simply suites them. It is big subject. More some time later.

Tehmed 32

I am impressed by your knowledge of history. I am sure it is your personal interest or did you study the subject some where. You are most invited for dinner with Stuka and Madani Sahib.

Hello All,

After a long absence from Chowk, I thought I would poke around and see what was going on. Glad to see that some of the old gang is still around, still fighting the (same old) good fight!

Stuka, I am truly touched that you missed me!
Hello also to Romair, Tahmed, SameerJB and anyone else I may `know` on this board.

Someone I know did the War Course some years before WCDR Nazar (do I have the rank right or are you a GCPT?) did, when NDC was still in Lalkurti, and I am reminded of a story he used to recount. Gen Nishat (I think thats the name), a gentleman of the old school, was the Commandant and one day this person was called into his office. Gen. Nishat said that he should really control his syndicate`s discussion more tightly since the topics were sometimes getting out of hand. Basically, Col. Sarwar should stop badmouthing the corrupt generals in the Army otherwise Nishat might have to take official notice of it. Since the officer in question had just said this a few hours ago, it was unlikely that it had already been reported to the Commandant. So Nishat was asked how he knew what Sarwar had said to the syndicate? Apparently, all the conference rooms were bugged and the Commandant could listen in on the discussions!

BTW, for those of you who may recall him from his political days, this is the same Col. Sarwar who served Benazir Bhutto as her Minister of State for Defense after he was kicked out of the Army. Apparently, during a Q&A session with Gen. Zia, Sarwar asked him what he was going to do about the corrupt generals in the Army. Zia hemmed and hawed and said that while there was some corruption in the Army, it was minimal and he was going to act against it when and if it was found. Sarwar responded that he was not talking about general corruption in the Army but specifically about high ranking generals who were corrupt. Zia did his famous ``Heh, heh, heh,`` and changed the subject.

Sarwar was retired from the Army shortly thereafter and then went into politics. Sarwar had an excellent war record and was a very bright man, not to mention pretty darn near fearless, although as a politician, I`ve heard he decided to make money instead.

BTW, WCDR saab, in your sojourn at NDC, did you study the 1971 fiasco at all? Even 1965?

Regards.

This is what Altaf Gauhar (the powerful information secretary in the
regime of ``Field Marshal`` Ayub Khan) wrote the 1947 war of
``liberation`` in Jammu & Kashmir:

``.....the Kashmir invasion, planned by hoardes of lawless tribesmen of
the NWF, who indulged in murder and looting as they moved into the
territory of Jammu and Kashmir. Khurshid Anwar, an ex-army officer,
who was killed in the operation, was supposed to be the main organiser
of this operation. The tribesmen were assured that the Indian army was
too ill-organised to offer any counter offensive, so they could fight
their war of freedom without fear. No one remembered that frontier
rebels do not fight wars of freedom on behalf of other people. They
settle their tribal disputes through looting, murder and devastation.``

It is interesting to note that Pakistan`s ruling elite was quite
willing to have its cake and eat it too. Thus at independence, it
quickly accepted the Junagarh Nawab`s offer to join Pakistan even as
it organized the tribal onslaught on Jammu & Kashmir lest its Maharaja
does a Junagarh. It is another matter that Pakistan`s duplicity was
less than fruitful - losing 100% of Junagarh and retaining about a
third of Jammu & Kashmir.

stuka #80

I understand the literal meaning of ``Ummah``. I pointed out that it also has a certain negative definition that is not traditionally part of indian culture. Yes, if you are interpret ``hindu`` as its original meaning as ``indian`` you are absolutely correct.

I do not think that was the intent here. I think the intent was that, for the first time ever, we have similar to islamic ``ummah``, a similar hindu ``ummah`` in India. I disagree with that proposition, even though extremists like Modi and Thackeray are working towards that.

Pmishra: Ummah also means means community/brotherhood. In a non religious sense we are all Hindu Ummah ie Community of Hind.

Madani Sahab,

#70

That was a personal and touching glimpse of yourself. You appear to be a genuine guy who shoots from a pleasant& honest heart.

Adios

Ref harimau #73

Okay, Chowk decides to cut short my post without telling me it was going to do that so here is the URL.

Mr. Khan, your comments would be appreciated.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/EG12Df05.html

Dost Mittar:

``nothing will concentrate the Pakistani mind better on what they are doing wrong than seeing India forge ahead. ``

True. Just as the sweeping economic reforms announced by Moeen Qureshi motivated the Indians in the early 1990s.

Mr. Madani #70 First, for a country that lost two world wars, German strategists cannot have been the geniuses they are reputed to be. They took unnecessary risks (e.g. opening a two front war with Barbarossa) and allowed their arrogance to override their common sense (e.g. the Russians, whom they considered to be an inferior and uncivilized race, in fact surprised the Germans in Barabarossa with tanks and planes that were technically superior to anything the Germans had; and with tacits the Germans never anticipated - e.g. pulling back of factories to Siberia, excellent infantry-armor coordination). So, forget Barabarossa.
If you are looking for military smarts look at the following: (a) Dienbienphu: The French possessed air control and a modern army, but Giap marched his men to the surrounding heights from where they lobbed artillery shells at will; (b) Post-Tobruk retreat of Rommel: Even though Tobruk was a defeat for the outnumbered Germans, the masterful manner in which Rommel managed to retreat hundreds of miles and thus save his troops is considered to be a stroke of military genius; (c) The 6-Day War: The brilliance being on the part of the Israelis here (although the Arabs were incredibly dumb - I could tell you stories of the Arab overconfidence matched by incompetence from what I heard the Pakistani general Nawazish telling my father back then after having visited the Arab Israeli front back in 1967); (d) the recent Iraq war: Leaving aside the politics, I think militarily it was brilliant, and showed the value of preparing decades in advance for future battlefields.

I could go on. I in fact am very glad that the Indians won in 1971 - otherwise we would still be stuck with managing a structurally unmanageable county. And I think in 1971 God was indeed on the side of the Indians - after all, the writing was on the wall, and the Bengladeshis did not want to be part of Pakistan any more. We Pakistanis had no right to force a people living a thousand miles away, loaded with a tons of grievances against us, to remain part of us. And, as I said in my original post - it was indeed a political victory for India. But I dont consider it a great military victory by any means, for reasons I explained. The only thing I have heard from those disagreeing with me is that there were rivers in the way of the Indian Army. Rivers can be crossed by modern armies, particularly if they have control of the air. The Pakistan Army had already been fighting the Mukti Bahini for six months before this war started - the Indian Army administered the coup de grace. 1971 proved nothing. If anything, by speeding up the nuclearization of Pakistan, it ensured that 1971 was the last time the Indians would ever dare to engage in a full scale war with Pakistan.

Long post. But these are important military matters and need to be discussed carefully. I am unable to draw maps on chowk, otherwise I would do that too. Also, if I knew how, I would also add videos from World War II in order to make this scholarly post more enjoyable to read.

PS: Why are you so concerned that you dont have a car in Karachi, or that you are 56 years old, or that your english is not King`s English?? Your wife loves you, and you seem like a great chap. So screw everything else (sorry for the bad word in the last sentence).

#70 ahmedmadani

You seem to have actually looked at history and I agree with some of your comments. However, this

[quote]
First time in history India is Unofficial Hindu Ummah.
[end-quote]

is not correct. If you look at indian freedom struggle it was multi-religous and not exclusively hindu. The Mughals had many, many hindu generals of the highest rank.
Today, am proud to say that the richest man in India, the recent winner in the womens wimbledon doubles and its president are not hindus.

Maybe you mean something else by ``Ummah``? Unfortunately, I associate it with a bunch of self-obsessed people, only interested in their own culture and ideology, full of victim-complex and deeply intolerant towards the ``others``: hindus, jews, shias, ahmedias, .... On top of it all, their ugly and mean behavior is justified with references to some scripture and tradition !!

Definitely, india is not and does not aspire to this type of ``Ummah``. Hindu and Buddhist traditions have never been exclusivist and the idea of ``we are all hindus together`` is not something that fits easily in indian traditions. I realize that VHP (Vishwa Hinsa Parishad) and ``leaders`` like Modi and Thackeray want to change that but they are on the loosing side of history.

Dear Mr. Khan,



Would you care to comment on the following article from The Asia Times?



Thanks.



Harimau



India: The games the Pentagon plays

By Sultan Shahin



NEW DELHI - An acknowledged master of psyops, the Pentagon has succeeded in conveying to India its very low opinion of the Indian army without allowing a public uproar to build up. The method it used was leaking to sections of the media bit by palatable bit a classified US government report highly damning to the Indian defense services and their policymakers.



In the first leak in early April, one United States officer was quoted as saying, ``We want a friend in 2020 that will be capable of assisting the US militarily to deal with a Chinese threat,`` thus merely implying that the Indian army was not yet fully prepared to assume the role of a US friend. But gradually, through several leaks in different sections of the press, a fuller picture of the seeming contempt in which US generals hold Indian army officers and politicians has emerged.



....

ahmadmadani#70:
``I did not follow logic of Mr. Dostmitter when he said Bangla desh victory was not significant. ``
I did not say that. Tahmed said that and I responded. In fact, I said more or less the same that you did:
``You are right about the Indian army holding all the aces in the bangladesh war. Still, the outcome would not have been a certainty but for the sound tactics and planning of Gen. Maneckshaw and his men, and of the Pakistani delusion of thinking one pakistani soldier equal to ten Indian soldiers.``
You made several statements in your article which are partially incorrect. Contrary to what the RSS people say, the Marathas did not create a hindu ummah. During the battle of Panipat against the Afghans, they had an alliance with the mughals. Their artillery chief, a muslim, was known to be the best ``topchi`` of his time. When captured, the Afghans offered to spare his life if he switched allegiance from `kafirs` to them. He refused, saying that the marathas were his men while Afghans were the foreign enemy.
And yes, the Indians are producing a large number of qualified people, but their overall literacy rate looks good only when compared to Pakistan`s. But you are right in one respect, if India keeps marching ahead economically, Pakistan`s nuclear bomb will become a meaningless asset. But there also, I see a ray of hope for Pakistan. In my opinion, nothing will concentrate the Pakistani mind better on what they are doing wrong than seeing India forge ahead.

Madani Sahib, you may not realise it or know it, but many seem to take you seriously.

Your worldview makes eminent grass-roots sense. I will suggest that you try to get hold of a book Bunker-13 by Aniruddha Bahal and maybe there may be some more understanding of why troops of both sides face each other on borders, and sometimes also troops of same side face each other on borders.

Some day the truth will be told about the business aspect of the Bangladesh freedom movement. Your analysis that a tribesman would blow up a pipeline for 100000/- dollars and then earn 1000000/- every year to guard it is very apt.

Response #67
Dear Mr. Nazarkhan.... I very much appreciate your very kind to response. I have noted your number. I will take advantage of your kind invitation at proper time. I am 56 years old and work at lower level and normally my vocabulary is full of `` ha ji , thank you sir or madam etc. It`s joy to be taken seriously. Many times its contempt shown by accomplished people for ordinary people hurts. I will say without hesitation you are gentleman. One of the best liked article here read of yours `` life with wife``. It pleasure to read how people love even when they are not youth or post youth mentally and physically. It little hard for many like me as we have not car but rarely I go with wife to beach and its very pleasant and she feels better. She is not very educated so I read for her your article and translated bit. Then she asked me do you really feel same about me. Then she asked me why you never told me. I told her our problem is we are so tired , I know you are so tired day in and day out and when i return many times from night work as soon as hit bed asleep as dead man. At least for short time due your article we appreciated married bliss.
There are practical problems of dining with well accomplished people as most of time working at low level one develops inferiority complex. As in hospitality business we do not ask difficult question. When I feel courage , will call you.

My military information is due to my boss( manager). He is retired but likes to read military books. Recently he gave me interesting book to read `` operation Baborossa`` by Paul Elrich a german so its bised for german army and has contempt for Russians as barbarians( it is more operational description book but gives idea how both armies behaved and type of operations on eastern front.. Also I read recently book given by manager `` russia at war 1941-1945 by Alexzander worth``. This gave me some idea about planning , problems etc of military campaigns.

Tahmed 32: My vocabulary of miltary is not good. Airmachine= aircraft. As i was reading above books for last 1 month in spare time at hotel reception russian and german used word airmachimes for aircraft, same with military boat. So I used same.

I did not follow logic of Mr. Dostmitter when he said Bangla desh victory was not significant.
It was the be the best moment for Indian army of defeating, moving with speed, not getting bogged at points of resistance and frog jumping towards capital. As things turned out as they were does not mean they were easy or ordinary. Even with far superior armour, mobility, great legendary leadership and total air superiority , lost moral of russian army, lack of effective leadership of russian political appointed generals and lack of huge rivers on rolling plains germans armies ( battle hardened well oiled -3 million men strong on russian front) could not achieve that fast. They had hard time crossing rivers and establishing bridgeheads. Pakistan army considers the worst defeat- that is proof.
Other thing one should note. Up to now in history till rise of maraths Muslims were victorious. Maraths demolished mughal empire and first time established unofficial ``Hindu Ummah``. Once they achieved they were defeated only when Hindu Ummah failed. British defeated Marata Warlords one at time. First time in history India is Unofficial Hindu Ummah. They may not say it but it is, as they know united thay stand. The worthwhile achievement of India in last 50 century is monumental in this aspect. Hindu Ummah is controlling more land than british controlled directly. I studied the deaths of Indians in Kargil on their ``army web``. They gave list of dead including name rank, state. You can see people died were almost proportion to population of the state ( except few like bengal and gujrat- may be nonmartial shopkeepers and babus). This unofficial Ummah is arming it self, producing enormous wealth reducing poverty, life span, humming industry,upsurge of lower classes. I was looking in matrimonial of Indian web sites men women, from all casts engineers, doctors,accountants, businessmen, girls nody is doing ba etc most are professionals -I am talking Indians in India. One state produces 35,000 engineers ( even assuming quality is poor) this has enormous implications. As in IT tech India started producing computer people they changed India. This enormous explosion of education is more dangerous to us than their fancy nuclear missiles. I take india seriously. Its not Iran or Afghanistan. Indians do not want to go back or have nostalgia for gone things ( This hindu etc just vote catching thing). It is still time to work out things. As if Non BJP govt comes in power they will not dare to make real decisions. They can talk and talk. Then they will start playing with water and world will saay nothing. China is thinking of diverting water and india and Bangla desh will suffer. I have only heard few murmur internationally. We made mistake in 1965 assuming india will not cross international border, they crossed. Time comes they will again cross . This martial race theory no army person belives. Specially people who have faught against indians like my boss do not believe this crap. They respect bravery, courage, generalship and he never takes cheap shots. See defence journal, many officers who faught candidly write about this things.

So I will suggest to be polite, civilised. Abusing, name calling does not score points, it is infantile disorer of grown up men.
We should respect the views of Mr. Romair, Nazar Khan etc.

Nazar :
Do you usually invite people who ask you questions to dinner? If so, I have many questions of my own.

Madani #66 I hope sir that you will accept Mr. Khan`s kind invitation to dinner where he will also discuss the important questions you raise about flying bombs and airmachines. I wish people would invite me to dinner to discuss my posts.

Also, I dont believe that airmachines are real, because how can a machine not fall to the ground when there is in air?? And flying air bombs and laser tanks warboats and battle plans of Pakistan GHQ are very important secrets, and also very important science matters. So please dont tell them to anyone else. Also make sure Mr. Khan orders good dessert after dinner, and does not try to save money by ordering only one plate daal with naan and plain water not coca cola.

Also, take your ex-armyman boss with you to dinner. (Mr. Khan is very happy I am thinking for him and inviting your boss to his dinner as well.)

ahmedmadani # 66

I admire your curiosity. But you have asked a bundle of questions.
If you are in Karachi - call me at 5673477 - I will invite you to a Dinner and give you all my rusted-up ideas.

Sir my inquiry is to PAF (EX)or IAF or people who know about airmachimes etc.

Are tanks not useful as before as now fast moving airmachine with zip zap laser gided bombs? Does it means always thought and faught battles in Plains of Punjab and deserts of Sindh and Raja stan are things of past ? Can a aircraft carry tank destrying( bullets?) missiles in hundreds or it can carry less than 4 to 5? Can tank commander helpless aginst aircraft totally ? I was wondering if one airmachine can carry say if 100 missiles then any blitz can be brought to stop in tracks then what is use of modern fleets of tanks or they are only meant for close distance fighting. ( I was reading autobiography of General Z A Khan regarding his campaign in Raja stan. He wrote hunters two in numbers from IAF took shots at tanks and destroyed- and battle plans also destroyed, I assume they had no laser gun bombs.in 1965 war. and not indian army- not much army prescence was there it appears or wrongly employed at wrong places). Are there air-bomb resistant tanks?

I will like some body to throw light on gone old things.
How are afghans as airforce ? If in case situation arising aghan airforce will pose challenge to pakistan A.F.? Are they rated low as indians.as airforce ? ( I have read Mr. Chuck yager rated best israeli followed by Pakistani A.F.)
How was Vietnam airforce against americans? Did russian migs used by vietnam were useful at that time?
In 1971 I was 23 years old and have seen fires at petrol tanks in karachi harbor. At that time many thought it may be flying bombs from airplanes. Indians say it was by their military boats. People always asked why boats were not attacked by F-15 jets oe fighter aircrafts can not attack on water? Whater names of aircrafts for naval boats sinking type.

In 65 we had ai superiority. Indians fighter will run away to save himself and his plane- wise move. At the same time fighting generals always wote in their books major activity of transporting tanks during day was near to impossible and had to be carried out at night, making impossible to keep deadlines for offensive in Raja stan. Does it mean Because of Punjab and Kashmir borders more aircraft there and less for desert?

India attacked Sui Gas fields , but why they never attached simple more important targets like sluices of Sakkar , Tarbela or Mangala Dams? Or they coild not due to our defensive plans.

Recent damaging of sui gas ppelines two times brought country to standstill affecting people and industry. I have seen in open relatively almost unprotected gas compression Pumping plants. I wonder why not make them underground at present indian airmachine can drop few bomb destroy pumpstation, stopping energy lines. The war is in evitable so to depend on pipe lines for enegy prudent ?

Same way gas coming from Afghanistan (TAP) and IRAN- India pipeline( i think it can not happen and we should not) can be blown easily by indian aircraft when it risers to ground. ( as trbemen blew pipe ) is is sad to have and also indian friendly Afghan warlords can blow pipe line of TAP for 100000 dollars and collect money for repair. and bring Pakistan to standstill. So india can make big loss to us easily. Also afghan warlords will go on increasing protection money ( Friendly MQM does collect Bhatta) to make pipe line costly.
We kneed chowky economic type to write about TAP or CHOWK request some body.

Thanks very much

It indeed is a pity that India is trotted out as the bogeyman to justify a bloated Pakistan army which is now twice the size of what it was before the 1971 war.

But it is a crime when the flower of Pakistani youth is periodically sacrificed to satisfy the megalomania of a few generals.

I have seen:-

a) The officer selected to lead the Pakistan Army parade in Karachi on 14th August 1947, rushing on to join the Indian Army a few days later and facing his own regiment a few months later.

b) The grandson of the most recognised North Eastern (Nagaland, Phizo) separatist that India had, dying (IED) in Baramulla, Kashmir, wearing an Indian Army uniform.

c) The ongoing relationship between serving senior Indian and Pakistani Armed Forces officers while abroad.

d) The existence of a joint IAF/PAF fighter pilot`s group in Australia. Rumours of Middlecoat surfacing have been around for decades now.

Anybody here read Bunker 13 by Anirudhha Bahl?

re: 52

it takes more than 2-3 top army men. you pretty much need all the pso`s, head of the isi + majority of corps commanders on board. the pindi brigade is 111. but that`s ok, you are a shaheen and a pretty disgruntled one at that.

re:#21 by Maharana
You should tell our ``closet mullah`` (tahmed sahib, i say this with due apologies) what happened to the decision to send troops to Iraq. The latest is: India is not sending the troops. After much opposition and introspection, India has decided to say Sorry but NO. What about Pak? Mushy committed soon after Camp David to send troops. There was no debate. NO debate is necessary. In Pak, Army has the country and not the other way round.
Sridhar

hnasir # 57

You are absolutelt right about the perks etc.

Indian threat is projected in a manner to create a bigger Army.

In my opinion, there is no external threat to Pakistan.

The two threats to its security are both internal: (a) Military`s meddling in politics (b) Mullas meddling in politics.

ijaz_gul #45: I think you misunderstood my remarks, or I did not state them correctly, perhaps.

I am the biggest fan of the Pakistani military soldier - the sepoy to the rank of Colonel. I have lost quite a few close friends to military deaths. There is on one in Pakistan whom I have more respect for than the jawan sitting on the border, or the pilot risking his life. IN term of dedication to their land, these guys are a different breed from the rest of us. I say this as someone who once belonged to this breed, and no longer does. So I understand their dedication to the land very clearly.

Only a special person can risk his life to protect others. This is true for soldiers of all countries. These guys (mostly in their 20s and early 30s) are protecting our families, while we are living it up in North America, and (ironically) criticizing them. In my opinion, they deserve our gratitude, not our criticism. My life as an IT professional abroad is far easier than my life in the military.

The Pakistani soldier faces more risks than most soldiers of the world, since he always faces a much larger force. That is why survey after survey by in Pakistan, and by international organizations like the recent Davos survey, ranks the military as the most respected organization in the country. And no one, including the most opportunistic politicians ever criticizes the jawan and young officers. They only criticize the Generals (which I do also).

Something tends to happen around the rank of Brigadier. The same dedicated Colonels start transitioning into beaurecratic Generals, who are no different from their civilian counterparts. Even worse, these Generals end up hogging all the resources of the Army, leaving the rest of the force living hand to mouth.

There are very very few intellectuals in the command branches of the military, i.e. flying, infantry, armour, etc. However, most of these individuals consider themselves to be intellectuals when they become Generals (or when they retire). One cannot, all of a sudden, become an intellectual just by getting promoted or by retiring. It requires a certain amount of IQ and education and experience. My friends in PIA and other civilian areas are as stupid (or as intelligent) now as they were when they left the military. And I have friends who I know will become Generals someday, who have never had an original thought in their lives.

This does not mean the military does not have intellectuals. There are some extremely qualified and world-travelled officers in the Engineering, Medical etc. type of branches. I have quite a few coursemates in the military who have MS and Ph.D. degrees and are brighter than nearly all my friends in Silicon Valley. However, these guys aren`t in the command branches - maybe because they don`t want to, or are too scared to go into battle (Army engineers do go). They are professors at training institutions, surgeons, researchers in Kahuta, etc. Thus they have not developed command skills and will not become Generals.

I think the criteria for becoming a General needs to be changed, since times have changed. There needs to be combination of academic and command experience. And the academic experience should be in good civilian universities, preferably abroad. However, there are hardly any individuals in the command branches, who could handle that kind of academic load.

I never went to any Defence college so I can`t comment on what is taught there. I doubt it is of very high standard, because hardly any of the academic institutions in Pakistan, providing executive level training, has anything of high standard. Infact I don`t know of any such institution in Pakistan. What I do know is that the training institutions at the junior ranks are quite good. NUST is ranked as the best university in Pakistan by Asian magazines, and one of the top 20 in Austral-Asia. College of Aeronautical Engg. has a higher standard of students than most US universities. Army Medical College is one of the best in Pakistan. The flying training for cadets in PAF is world famous. I have been to some of these places and can speak from experience.

However, the standards for senior officers need to be greatly improved. And the pays of junior officers need to be greatly improved, because anyone who has some qualifications will leave the military (like I did) and like many of friends want to. I cannot blame them, since they are so poorly looked after in comparison to my colleagues in the civilian world.

I would say Pakistan has some of the most dedicated young officers and jawans in the world, and some very good training institutions at the juior level. And probably some of the most incompetent Generals (specifically in the Army) in the world. I have noticed that about the Colonel level people reach a plateau, and never seem to evolve beyond that. I don`t think this changes whether one remains in the military or resigns.

Jay # 46

I always mention it. Some time back, my whole article titled ``Preventing Military Take Overs`` appeared on Chowk. Please read it. Even Post # 47 says so. Incidently, poor Air Force and Navy play no role in it.

The Defence College syllabus should be drastically revised to contain only the military matters - otherwise you will continue to churn ourt semi-educated national planners from military like me.

No extraordinary courage is required to state this fact.

Ansari # 48

You are one person I will be happy to be stranded with on a lonely island. Listen to your poetry and watch with amusement the boats of some fiery interactors pass by.

Anything to do with military or religion is a good dish for the Chowkees. So far I have been avoiding it - this not being my favourite subject. I just let this one pass in.

Dear Nazar,

Would you be kind enough and opine on the following:

Our basic problem is not the Army itself; but the bloated corps of some 200 Maj. Generals, Lt. Generals and above.

The Army is an organized institution and its size is determined by the Indian threat as percieved in the context of Kashmir.

The size of the Army perhaps justifies about 30 2-Star+ Generals; we had 22 of them during the 1971 war.

But instaed of 30 we have 200 of the suckers. Most of them are not needed. You will find them manning useless directorates in the GHQ, leading formations that exist on paper only, or ``auctioned`` into civil institutions from PIA, KESC, Customs, Wapda, Irrigation, Cricket Board etc. Some of the special favorites are sent to FC and Rangers to spin in some more cash.

The ``Legal`` perks of a Major General have an intrisic Value of about RS 6.5 Million per year. In addition, a Brigadier is entitled to 2 Plots of Land with current market Value of about Rs 10 Million. Upon each ``Star`` promotion he is allotted even more land and other goodies.

In addition, they skim away on average about 30-40% of the Defense procurement Budget of some $ 350 M every year. Thats almost $ 90 M of bribes every year. Assuming that about 30% are monetarily honest; this amounts of an average Black Money income of Rs 35 M per head every year.

These days most of the promotions take place on the sex appeal of the officer`s wife; or his ability to procure women for the carnal pleasures of the promotion Board members or selected 3-Star mentors. Lt Gen Zarrar Azeem, Corps Commander lahore is considered to be an encylclopedia of the prostitution and call-girls industry ... Gen Muasharraf savors the pleasures of Lahore for at least 2 weekends a month. Some of the Brigadiers begin arranging ``Encounters`` between their wives and seniors at a very early stage ... giving rise to some comic (true) anecdotes .. but they must be censored here.

The growing role of American Military and FBI in Pakistani establishment is also a serious cause of concern; as some of our generals are virtually on their payroll; or captives to their interests. Our Generals are endowed with ``Canine`` sense of Loyality to the white skin and are happy to go to any extent to please their new found Masters. Amongst the most disgraceful in this department is Maj Gen Sadaqat of FC Quetta.

The legal take home income of a Maj Gen is about $ 600; about Rs 33,000 after deductables and Tax. Some of these johnies afford the education of two kids in the USA coting them a minimum of $ 50,000 every year. But they just dont seem to have any problems with that.

http://www.balochistanpost.com/reply.asp?Page=1&ID=4913

A little bit more:

An interesting point put forward by some Raja Ibrahim on the discussion forum of the SAT. “By the way how can one respect/like or not hate those who can ignite an ammunition depot in the middle of a city of 1 million to cover up their own loot. Yeah, I am talking about Ojhri Camp. See, India (and Pakistan too) avoided civilian targets during 1965 and 1971. But our own generals didn’t mind putting a big city on fire themselves.
And you still talk about everything else but not the real crooks and have the courage/guts to defend/condone them.
I am sad, extremely sad to observe this inexplicable callousness.”

Before some of gentlemen start their typical emotional blackmailing about soldiers defending the motherland, risking their lives and so on, I would like to pre-emptively add:

I have absolutely NOTHING against poor guys standing guard on our borders while we sleep. I SALUTE them. Actually, some people tend to forget the tragic facts that those who lay down their lives on the borders are not who get awards and plots. In some cases we don’t even accept their dead bodies (remember NLI and Kargil). Many true Shaheeds normally don’t even get proper burial.
As someone wrote on South Asia Tribune, begum of a general with aching back has much higher priority at a CMH than that of a hawaldar from the LOC with Indian bullet in his chest.
See, that hawaldar will be put in a stinking jawans’ ward, while civilian drunk teenager son of a general will get the best possible treatment in VIP awards. Can anyone deny?

In short, a handful of senior officers, those very individuals who are very fond of playing messiahs, are in reality the biggest curse for the nation.

Alephnull #91 Thanks for writing. From the tone of your post, you are clearly upset because I have questioned some dearly held convictions on your part concerning the 1971 war. You have however ignored the entire context of my post and reduced it to the petty India-Pakistan oneupmanship that goes on in chowk. You have also ignored the rationale I presented, and instead simply presented the rationale (which incidentally I consider to be quite weak) for your conviction that 1971 was some kind of a brilliant military victory.

I am perfectly content with you retaining your convictions concerning 1971, and will not waste your time or mine any further by engaging in what would (based on the tone of your post as explained above) be an inane discussion.

Jay Bhai # 46

Believe me, myself and Romair have never been involved in any coup.

It is done by the top 2-3 Army men and No 110 Brigade Commander based in Pindi. The coup procedure is well rehearsed. Prime Minister is arrested along with few key ministers. Telephone exchange, Radio and TV is taken in possession. And patriotic songs begin on media.

Shareefuddin Peerzada is called to prepare the ``Proclamation Statement`` to be announced on the media. (Shareefuddin charges Rs 1,000,000 for it. Waste of money. Old statement can be photocopied)

Navy, Air Force, rest of Army and poor souls like me and Romair get the news from radio.
Opposition is happy and distributes sweets. The wife of the Prime Minister enters a writ in Supreme Court. The judges get an extension and coup is validated. It is same story every time.

So please reconsider sending me and Romair to gallows just because we have spent a few years in military and were ekking out a living. We have moved on to the new pastures and new life. It is my third profession. Though in polite words, your hatred is well reflected in my article.

Incidently, what do you do for a living?

lately Indians and Afgans have teamed up to sponsor terrorism in Pakistan. Pakis are shouting blue murder. What`s up with that?

It seems Chowk is full of ex-paki military men - the eminent products from the esteemed defence college. ( How come we don`t see any such species from the Indian side in here? ) . So any thoughts on what`s going on? I mean Afgan was supposed to be some kind stretegic depth for Paki army. A brotherly nation that has suddenly turned step-motherly and given pakis a boot where it hurts most. And on top of that - it has teamed up with kafur hindu India.

Why blame afganis? Look at another brotherly nation , Iran. They too are sleeping with the same kafur. what the heck is going on guys? I mean , all you brilliant paki military officers running around with brilliant strategies for propelling the whole Ummah to giddy heights of world dominance - but no other brotherly nation gives a hoot! it seems nobody likes you guys anymore.

what is going on?

nazar:
Thanks for some superb insights into the minds of the people who matter in Pakistan today. No wonder you found yourself uncomfortable in that environment. I suspect that the military aspect of your article are probably true of the Indian army as well.

tahmed:
You are right about the Indian army holding all the aces in the bangladesh war. Still, the outcome would not have been a certainty but for the sound tactics and planning of Gen. Maneckshaw and his men, and of the Pakistani delusion of thinking one pakistani soldier equal to ten Indian soldiers.
But you are right about the long-term consequences. Indira Gandhi`s action in Bangladesh was wrong on strategic, geopolitical as well as moral grounds for India.

Nazar,

Intelligent and excellently written. Enjoyed it very much.

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#44
But in my opinion no one else is doing anything either. Lost 3-4 wars and using up of over 50% of national budget in last 56 years is not much of an achievement.

Truer words were never spoken.

Nazar sahab,

Urdue? LOL!

I haven`t read the article lekin ek qarz aapka mujh pe abhi udaar hai. . .insha-Allah jald hi. . .

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HEIGHT OF ABSURDITY,

As usual pakistanis are on a pretentious discussion on the military training in pakistan, with ocassional comparison with that of india. With so much of military men on chowk, no one has dared to touch up on that aspect pf pak military traini8ng that promts the generals to take over the country.

It would have been of some insight if one could identify the training process where where the notion of military that has a country is inculcated in the trainig.

The pathetic romairs and nazzar will not dare to mention that.

#33 by Romair
By luck and chance you quit the Army as a captain and found early success. So you tend to see the financial affluence amongst the officer corps from the window of your richness. I would tend to differ. The houses of Army officers are much neater, cleaner and imaginatively laid out than most of their civilian peers. You would alawys find a well laid out exclusive sitting room and a tidy presentation even if it only a glass of water. Your reference to eat outs like Pizza Hut betrays your level of richness. Even a person earning in the range of at least 50,000 in a month cannot be a frequent visitor. True armed forces officers cannot frequent it too often, but that does not affect their professionalism or attitude. Attitude is something generic. It is a constant. The level of spending remains constant to the level of affluence. A poor man if honest will remain so even if he strikes gold.

Yes a level of compartmentation did take place due to Saudisation during the 80s, but invariably most of the nouvelle rich were sorted out by the system itself. Those who were ingenuine invariably got superceded and have since joined the veterans ranks.

I remeber having read that it is the destiny of every professional soldier to lie in wait for a day that may never come and to be prepared when it does even at the peril of his life. No profession gets as close to the ideals of professionalism as a soldier as he is required to scarifice the ultimate; even his life. Just like catholic priests who practice celibacy so as to devote maximmum time to their congregation, too much riches are apt to distract the professionalism of some soldiers. Yet we find many super rich officers who volunteer in the hardiest of places with pride. Money or no money is secondary.

Let us not forget the gallantary displayed by our young officers in Kargil. Most have gone unsung. Officer to Jawan ratio in this war is startling and perhaps the highest in the world. Those still serving are since in different places, hardly anyone propogating a macho image. This is why I agreed with the conclusions of Nazar. Perhaps our young officer is amonst the most professional. This erosion subsequently has more to do with the approach to strategy and books like the `Conduct of War` that are misleading carrying out de education. All armies think alike and what makes the difference is the technology and the group traditions like being colonial, professional, revolutionary or a praetorian army.

Yes for those searching prestige in society, army may have lost its attraction. Such people are ready to forsake their citizen rights to get into uncle sam`s boots. They are a class in themselves.

Till such time our civil society does not metamorphise, attitudes to fixation and traditions will not change. So we will continue to learn from the past and live in it.

Ijaz-gul # 32

National strength is no more a function of militaries. National strength now means a sumtotal of national cohesiveness, poltical stability, economy, industrial growth, diplomacy and so on.

Sr # 28

Your intelligence showed that I was right. He is right that I did not do anything. In that salary, that is best I could do. Military was never my piece of cake. Nor, in fact, the profession of flying. I would have loved to continue my studies in a civil universirt for my self-actualization. But in my opinion no one else is doing anything either. Lost 3-4 wars and using up of over 50% of national budget in last 56 years is not much of an achievement. On top of it, ruining the national political system and bringing a bad name to the country. At least I never took any cuts or commissions. I think it is better if we stick to the issues and not personalities. I have too much information on this subject to throw mud. Wherever I name the personalities, it is where their personal agendas/views have harmed the national interest.

Dullabhatti # 30

My name in urdue means gift.

Romair # 31

Overall, I think the priorities have changed as from the past. Now the priority is promotion, perks and plots. Professionalism comes later.

#33 by Romair
By luck and chance you quit the Army as a captain and found early success. So you tend to see the financial affluence amongst the officer corps from the window of your richness. I would tend to differ. The houses of Army officers are much neater, cleaner and imaginatively laid out than most of their civilian peers. You would alawys find a well laid out exclusive sitting room and a tidy presentation even if it only a glass of water. Your reference to eat outs like Pizza Hut betrays your level of richness. Even a person earning in the range of at least 50,000 in a month cannot be a frequent visitor. True armed forces officers cannot frequent it too often, but that does not affect their professionalism or attitude. Attitude is something generic. It is a constant. The level of spending remains constant to the level of affluence. A poor man if honest will remain so even if he strikes gold.

Yes a level of compartmentation did take place due to Saudisation during the 80s, but invariably most of the nouvelle rich were sorted out by the system itself. Those who were ingenuine invariably got superceded and have since joined the veterans ranks.

I remeber having read that it is the destiny of every professional soldier to lie in wait for a day that may never come and to be prepared when it does even at the peril of his life. No profession gets as close to the ideals of professionalism as a soldier as he is required to scarifice the ultimate; even his life. Just like catholic priests who practice celibacy so as to devote maximmum time to their congregation, too much riches are apt to distract the professionalism of some soldiers. Yet we find many super rich officers who volunteer in the hardiest of places with pride. Money or no money is secondary.

Let us not forget the gallantary displayed by our young officers in Kargil. Most have gone unsung. Officer to Jawan ratio in this war is startling and perhaps the highest in the world. Those still serving are since in different places, hardly anyone propogating a macho image. This is why I agreed with the conclusions of Nazar. Perhaps our young officer is amonst the most professional. This erosion subsequently has more to do with the approach to strategy and books like the `Conduct of War` that are misleading carrying out de education. All armies think alike and what makes the difference is the technology and the group traditions like being colonial, professional, revolutionary or a praetorian army.

Yes for those searching prestige in society, army may have lost its attraction. Such people are ready to forsake their citizen rights to get into uncle sam`s boots. They are a class in themselves.

Till such time our civil society does not metamorphise, attitudes to fixation and traditions will not change. So we will continue to learn from the past and live in it.

CONTAINING THE CRESCENT,

If the pak trainers have any sense, they should look at the emerging political situation, the global task of containing the crescent from turkey to malaysia. Indonesia is taken care of by the australians. India and israle are the only countries who can perform the task and in that context india should send troups to iraq. Pakistan, the source of the most virulent form of islam, is almost surrounded with indian invlovement in afghanistan and iran and the central asian countries. With the building of road through iran to central asia, pakistan will be well and truly irrelevant. The central asia to pakistan gas pipeline has been abandoned by ADB because of no support from india. The LNG deal with iran is signed, ruling out the iran pakistan india pipe line.
At last the task of containing pakistans virulent strain, a little like SARS, is full on. No pak military men have the coirrage to accept the reality. nor the sihns that pakistan is on an iraquisation path.

Romair & Mohar 11

Air War College in Karachi teaches ``Aerial Strategy``. It has students from three services and also foreign students. (I have done this course and rather well)

Naval War College in Lahore (Navy wanted presence in Lahore) teaches ``Naval Strategy`` and it has students from three services including foreign students.

National Defence College in Islamabad (first it was in Pindi) runs two courses - ``National Defence Course`` and ``Armed Forces War Course``.

National Defence Course has students from three services, foreign students and a few Bueracrats from Government. They study National and Defence policy.

Armed Forces War Course studies Military Strategy (Army, Air orce, Navy). It has students from three services. (I did this course and I guess not too well )

The Quetta Staff College conducts basic army-orientated course. This has students from three services and a lot of foreign students.

The Instructors are called Directing Staff.

Latest drama is that Defence College is running a 5-day seminar for Naazims and politicians to teach them the National and Defence strategy.

It is like putting cart before the horse. The Parliament Defence committee should call the services`` representatives for briefing in the parliament like it is done all over the world.

The Defence College syllabus should be drastically revised to contain only the military matters - otherwise you will continue to churn ourt semi-educated national planners from military like me.

Nazar Khan wrote:

``I can never forget the colourful and scintillating dance and music show that they arranged for us at the Sonar Gaon Hotel. As West Pakistanis, we could never match their rich cultural heritage. Our group leader, Javid Nasir (latter ISI boss) sat with his back towards the show during the entire evening because of his misplaced interpretation of our faith. I thought that this was being extremely rude to our hosts.``

Javid Nasir was at least as philistine and boorish as he was rude.

Is this the same Defence College you guys are talking about. This guys says it is some kind of white elephant!!

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/ayaz/ayaz.htm

``These days, however, another entity seems almost on the verge of beating the hotels at this game: the National Defence College in Islamabad, one of the leading white elephants in a city abounding in this species.
``

Just to have an idea of the intellectual level of many of our star officers

Interview of Lt Gen Javed Ashraf Qazi to BBC world is available at:
http://www.satribune.com/archives/nov4_10_02/opinion_javedashraf.htm

Scroll down to get that audio file:
I strongly recommend you people to listen to him. You will be amused. You people will not believe your ears, I promise.

And if still not convinced:

Three stars
By Ardeshir Cowasjee
Dawn
Sunday, 12 January 2003

Javed Nasir, a retired lt-general of the Pakistan army, in October 2002 filed a complaint under Section 6(a)(b)(c), 8 & 11 of the Anti-Terrorist Act, 1997, before the Anti-Terrorism Court at Lahore.

`The complainant` proclaims himself to be one ``who symbolizes Tableeghi Jamaat`s most prominent member with international fame and reputation of the most scrupulously honest individual,`` and claims that in 1992 he ``became an instant international figure.`` The `Respondents/Accused` are: ``Mir Shakilur Rahman, editor-in-chief of the Jang Group of News, Lahore,`` and three others of his Lahore office.....

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/20030112.htm

wanna more ??
Just drop a line ... i will post hundreds of more stories.

Romair:
yaar most of your analysis start at your salary as F/L and end at the financial affluence you have succeeded to gain since leaving PAF. Don’t you think this massive recycling of arguments is getting boring?
There must be (and there are) lot many more aspects to military affairs too. Think about it next time you submit a reply on these lines.

RE #35 by khamkhwa.
I beg to differ (again). You are once wrong. Please try to remember the name of a famous cricketer and how it was written in urdu (HINT: the man with the golden arm).

nazr:
View/Offering/Gift
and the one you are talking about is:
Nazar:
Look/Glance/Favor/Motive/Countenance/Slight/View.

Both have a different Z. The appropriate Z which was used in the name of the cricketer and probably the same one in the writer`s name. This time you don`t have to agree with anyone who made a mistake, as you made it yourself. (which I think is less of a crime!)

The writer can clear up this confusion by telling how it is spelled in urdu and not gurmukhi. :)

Regards,

Aasif

Professor Tahmed #9 writes

{{In the war of the incompetents, the least incompetent will no doubt win.}}

Perhaps. Let us look at the example the Professor has in mind.

{{I am sorry if your national pride his hurt, but 1971 was basically a walkover and not even a case of the least incompetent winning - with a nonexistent airforce (6 sabre jets), the local population against them, lines of communication impossible due to geography, no natural barriers (mountains etc.) even a more imaginative general than Niazi could hardly have held on for very long.}}

“No natural barriers” - that is certainly a novel point of view. The most cursory glance at a map of Bangladesh tells me otherwise. Most of Bangladesh is an alluvial floodplain, the delta of the Ganga (Padma), the mighty Brahmaputra (Jamuna), and the Meghna. The land is divided by several major rivers, and subdivided by a host of smaller rivers together with lakes, ponds and swamps. The major rivers and their distributaries are several miles wide even in winter; during summer they merge into a broad sheet of water that covers one-third of the area of Bangladesh. That (together with the closing of the Himalayan passes on the Tibetan border in the North-East on the arrival of snow) is the reason why Indian forces in the Eastern Theater waited till late November to attack. Even so, only one of the approaches to Dacca – via Tangail – was considered tankable. The riverine terrain of Bangladesh would present severe logistical difficulties to any army, even if unopposed, trying to move a couple of hundred thousand men together with tanks, artillery, vehicles, and heavy equipment – quite unlike, say, the North African desert or the North German plain. Hence the modest plan originally approved by General Manekshaw only envisioned capturing Chittagong and Khulna. It was Lt. General Aurora’s brilliant Chief of Staff, Major General JFR Jacob who felt that the capture of Dhaka was both necessary and feasible, and who masterminded the logistical effort behind its execution. If Aurora’s forces were able to fight their way to Dhaka in three weeks or less, it was because they planned properly, used their limited resources in imaginative ways, and did not take their adversary or the terrain for granted.

And even though the Pakistani garrison in Bangladesh could not have survived indefinitely without help, all they needed to do was delay the Indian advance long enough to allow intervention by powerful friends – which in 1971, meant the United States and China. They had eight months in which to prepare their defences and dig in. Nothing prevented Pakistan from basing more aircraft in the East. A more determined, competent and disciplined force could certainly have held out longer. The Pakistan Army in Bangladesh, no doubt exhausted by their heroic exertions in donating genes to the population of Bangladesh, folded very quickly.

It is also interesting to note the way in which the number of Pakistani aircraft in Bangladesh is reduced by a factor of two or more. An innocent error or something else?

{{You may find this unacceptable, given the widespread (and UNTHINKING) acceptance in both India and Pakistan that this was a great military victory. But think about it and you will see what I mean.}}

I suppose we should all hire Professor Tahmed to teach us how to THINK. The results might be disappointing, though.

{{It was a great POLITICAL victory for India no doubt, though. And as much a blessing - albeit in disguise - for Pakistan as it was for Bangladesh. The concept of East and West Pakistan was even more impractical than the defunct UAR (Nasser`s attempt to bring Egypt and Syria together as one country, and there they spoke the same language too).}}

My cynical and unkind assessment is rather different. The political victory could not have been won without militarily defeating Pakistani forces in Bangladesh. The actual capitulation - to the forces of the nation officially designated as hate object - was so complete and crushing as to permanently damage the ‘honour and dignity’ of an Army that prides itself on its alleged warrior heritage and its martial and moral superiority over the Indians. And whether the original concept of East and West Pakistan was feasible, its end meant a refutation of the two-nation theory and a massive loss of national self-confidence and purpose.

That, perhaps, is why partisans of the Pakistan Army, even those who profess to have no use for the idea of national pride, try their best to paper over this deep psychic wound - by not honestly addressing the history of that era, by playing down the primary reason for the unviability of their previously united nation, and by an attempted summary dismissal of the thoroughgoing competence displayed by at least some in the Indian military during that conflict.

dulla bhatti #30

nazar, naazir, manzar.
root word is nazar = sight
naazir (pronounced as naazar by us paindoos) = one who sees.
manzar = scene which is seen.

the word `nazar` though feminine itself, is mostly used for men. Just like you have:
Man Preet for both genders.

ijaz-gul #32: ``I feel that if an individual is genuine, his attitudes will remain constant all his life. Vertical mobilisation will never alter his basic make up. So I disagree with the pro captain critic.``

I assume you are refering to me. The pro-Captain part was a joke, hence the :-).

I think if an individual is genuine, his basic ethics will remain constant (most of the time), but not his attitude. Attitude is depedent no a variety of factors. People who are very unhappy in Pakistan, migrate to the USA, and become very happy, and have a complete change in attitude. Many people who leave the military end up happier with a better attitutde in civilian lives. Many people in civilian lives change professions, get a divorce, get married, etc. and have a change in attitude, etc.

So attitudes are greatly dependent on surrouding factors e.g. one`s stage in life, one`s financial position, one`s boss - so on and so forth. I have seen colleagues who were unhappy due to poor pay in the PAF, and are now the happiest people in the world getting a small fortune in PIA. One of my close friends flunked out of the academy, joined PIA, bought a new new car and a house in Pindi in his twenties, while the rest of us were couldn`t afford an air-conditioner. His attitude was different from ours. Everytime I visit my military colleagues in Pakistan, I find them in all kinds of financial and other problems. They get scared when I ask them to go to Pizza Hut, because they cannot pay their side of the bill, but don`t want to admit it. They have a different attitude towards life.

There is also a distinct different from the previous generation of military men, from Ayub Khan to current Maj Generals (specifically in the Air Force and Navy) and those in it now. Till the 70s, the military was the prime choice of profession in Pakistan (much like the CSS). A lot of well-off families, like Kuli Khan Khattaks etc. sent their kids into the military. They were well looked after. Now the military is much lower on people`s list. Hardly any rich kids join it now. The no. 1 choice is migrating to North America, as professionals. No. 2 is private sector jobs in Pakistan. No. 3 is CSS. No 4 is probably doctor etc. in Pakistan. So on.

I think there is a huge disconnect between Generals and the junior ranks in the miltiary in Pakistan. This is one of the reasons I left. The Generals are of Nazar`s generation. And as Nazar has correctly pointed out, they consider themselves, ``know-it-alls`` (as do the retired folks of that generation, so one should not just limit this criticism to the Generals). They have a poor understanding of the issues and problems (specifically financial) of the junior officers. I have super-intelligent friends in the Pakistani military with Ph.Ds. and M.S degrees from abroad, who are living hand to mouth. My own salary nearly quadrupled when I left the military and got a little bit of extra education, within Pakistan. This is why I highlighted this dynamic.

I think there is a distinct change going on in the type of individuals who will becoming Generals. They will different from the previous ones etc. On the average, they will be much more middle class, from poorer backgrounds, more educated, used to a much lower standard of living, and with an inferiority complex with respect to civilians, developed over decades of lower-standard living. It is so apparent when I meet my military colleagues. And some of the them are sword of honor winners, who are bound to make General.

I don`t know if this change will be good or bad. But it will definitely have an effect on their attitudes.

Your remarks will be welcomed. It is good to have a knowledgeable discussion on this subjet. Previously, this site didn`t have enough individuals who had accurate knowledge of these issues.

I feel that Nazar`s article is thought provoking, precise, accurate and objective. Having been a student of Military Sociology, I must appreciate that he has formulated a hypothesis on which volumes could be written.

Of all the three services in Pakistan, Corporatism and Exclusivity runs the strongest in the Army being the largest force amonst the three. Perhaps same is the case with US Navy, that spreads national power across the oceans.

I am of the view that nothing in the Armed Forces has changed since the 80s. Armies by tradition are resistant to change. Today we see our son`s make the same notes in Infantry School that our parents made when they did the junior leadership course. Like the 25 pounder gun the old biases have a predisposition of getting back.


A word about the policies and battle as spelled by Nazar. The Army for a very long time has been studying the relation ship of War and Policy from the book by J F C Fuller, ``Conduct Of War`` This distorted and biased evaluation of Clausewitz has resulted over a period of time in evolution of the psyhce that leads to drawing war plans in the War College. It is the same situation that the German General Staff faced in the German Wars of Unifications and later the invasion of France. A militarily brilliant Sclieffen Plan was ruined through poor staff planning not because generalship had gone bankcupt as commomny believed but because all political linkages to the War were ignored. It would be worthwhile to analyse Pakistan`s wars in the same context. A tendency to explain why it becomes so easy in the War College to make openening narratives for War Games.

All military sociologists agree that militaries train and live in the past. Colonial/Post Colonial Armies are most resistant to change becoming even more inflexible if they develope Praetorian tendencies. Hence all policies get to be looked at through the window of security and preservation of inertia.

But the malaise is not just in the Armed Forces. It has crept in all walks of national life. Brilliancy and intellectualism has lost its merit long ago. Opportunity and sycophancy are the name of the game. In all institutions a deliberate exercise at de education is carried out. The plight of A Level students in various universities particularly NUST is a case in point. People like Nazar are fortunate to fly higher horizons. Most like me are cacooned in the system and forced to live with it.

I feel that if an individual is genuine, his attitudes will remain constant all his life. Vertical mobilisation will never alter his basic make up. So I disagree with the pro captain critic.

Thanks Nazar for your brilliant expose.

Nazar: do you pronounce your name as Nazar or Naazar? We had a Naazar Singh in our pind. I am wondering if it was distorted version of Nazar...unless it was given to him by fellow paindoos as naaN-zar..as he was very angry looking man. On the other hand Nazar(as in eye-sight) sounds like female name.

SR: #29: Is this the Air Defence College in Karachi?

I think you will get distinctly different responses from the PAF, Navy and Army. The fact that a commadant of the college can be objective enough to critique his own institution would be an indication to me that there is a higher level of objectivity in analysing the curriculum, than indicated in this article.

I have always been interested in seeing the behavior of my colleagues still in the military, those like me who left, and civilians who never joined the military. One sees some interesting patterns and trends, differences in attitudes, behaviors etc., divided obiviously along civilian-military boundaries, but also amongst military verticals (PAF, Army, Navy). And even within branchces of these verticals, i.e the more scholarly soldiers of the Engineering, Medical etc. branch and the lesser educated, but more gung-ho soldiers of the, ``command`` branches like Flying in the PAF, Armour, Infantry etc. in the Army, and Ship commanders etc. in the Navy.

There are even different points-of-views amongst individuals who retired. Those who retired as Generals, those who retired as Colonels (like Nazar) and those as Captains (like the group I hang around with) seem to have conflicting views about their experiences in the military. The Captains were unhappy in the military, but are happy in civilian life. They consider themselves civilians, but now consider their military experience an asset. The Generals were happy in the military, and are ever happier as civilians, and look back to their military experience with fondness. They still consider themselves to be soldiers, even after retirement. The Colonel group seems to have been the most unhappiest about the military. Those Colonels who were forced to leave, are unhappy because they feel they got a bum deal by not being promoted to General. Those who left voluntarily feel they lost their youth wasting time in the military (I think I would have been in this group had I made it to Colonel).

I think this article is mostly (though not completely, in my opinion) accurate about the military of Nazar`s generation. That was the generation where the officers were well-fed, well paid with ample private sector opportunities, and a higher living standard in comparison to civilians with similar talents and skills. They made a lot of money on military assignments to the Middle East. My guess in Nazar must have gone on one or two such assignments, also. You will find such individuals, now retired, doing well as civilians, living in Pakistan`s wealthiest areas. Due to this, that group of soldiers, both inside and outside the military had a misplaced superiority complex, about, ``knowing it all.`` I would say the last generation of this, ``well-fed`` group is now at the Major General rank.

Those from my group (currently Majors) are poorly paid, poorly looked after, with little opportunity in the private sector (unless they leave at an early stage like me) and have a much lower living standard than civilians with equal talent and skills. This group, thus, has developed a misplaced inferiority complex with respect to civilians. I can tell by the emails my friends in the military send me regularly. I doubt they will suffer from, ``knowing it all,`` until they become Generals. Quite the opposite of Nazar`s generation.

There are two common things I have noticed about retired officers of Nazars` generation:

1) Those of them who retired as Generals, consider themselves more successful and more, ``evolved`` than those who retired as Colonels, and consider the later to be losers, since the later group couldn`t, ``make it`` in the military. While those who retired (willingly) as Colonels consider themselves more, ``evolved`` than their General colleagues, since they feel they have more exposure :-)

2) They other thing I have noticed about retired officers of this generation is that a disproportionately high number of them (retired Generals and Colonels) like writing analystical articles about their military experiences, trying to explain how their group has evolved more than the others`. :-)

Each group seems to have a superiority complex with respect to the other (one can see more than a touch of this, in the article also - no offense Nazar :-)).

If you ask me the only sensible ones are the ones who retired as Captains. :-) They got the best of the military and the best of the civilian world.

It is good to see articles about the military on this site, from individuals who saw it from the inside, rather than the nonsensical illogical critiques that come from people who never spent a day in uniform. On the whole, a good article. I think it applies accurately only to Nazar`s genertion of officers, however. Those from my group are under completely different cirumstances/dynamics and do not consider themselves, ``know-it-alls`` (at least not while they are in the military:-)). They seem to be too pre-occupied by how to make their next payment for their Yamaha 100 motorcycle.

stuka # 22

just call me nazar. Feels more earthly.

I think my public school life was a liberating experience. But I guess it is just a habit of questioning and an open mind. An inquisitive approach generally gets you close to the correct answer.

Ayub`s era was not golden. This military involvement in politics weakened the very foundations of the state - finally led to the break up.

nazar #19 On protecting ``state secrets`` from ``The Enemy``. There used to be a joke about Gen. Musa, who some officer said in public was not too smart. The officer (so the joke went) was the court-martialled. Not for insulting a superior officer, but for divulging state secrets.

Being no great fan of the military in general and of General Zina-ul-Haq in particular, I could not have trusted myself to be objective in evaluating an article that was critical of the lot. Therefore, I sent the article to some old military friends of mine. The army fellows have not yet responded. However, one of them who, until very recently, used to be in the Air Force e-mailed me the following reply:

Sohail

Nazar is a hearty fat soul who now flies for the PIA.
He never did much in the PAF, but he seemed to have an
independent streak alright.

Having been a graduate, instructor and Commandant of
the Air War College as well as a graduate of the
National Defence Colelge, I am, I think qualified to
comment on Nazar`s piece. I AGREE WITH HIM 100%.
Thats the short of the long.

More later and sorry for being a bit abrupt. I have a
sick wedding to attend. The weather is damp and humid
and I am not impressed by the grooms `heat` either.

Good writing Khan sahib. Keep it up.

...SR

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Maharan #21 ``When you compare the two armies, Pak army turns out to be a law unto itself, while Indian army is just a government arm. ``
I agree here. The Indian army has certainly done the right thing in not meddling in politics, and Indian military leaders deserve full marks for that. Our generals on the other hand have set back our political institutions by one or two generations.

Having said this, my earlier comments on the unimaginative and ultimately incompetent approach to military strategy on both sides remain valid I think. If you see anything I specifically said (rather than anything you thought you read between the lines) that you think is illogical or unrealistic, I would be much obliged if you were to point that out.

As for national pride, if you had been on chowk as long as i have been, you would know that for me national pride is a meaningless, and indeed in today`s world, an unproductive concept. It is the future of the ordinary people in both India and Pakistan - and in particular the vast majority of people in both India and Pakistan who suffer grinding poverty while the ``bara sahibs`` play their war games - that is vastly more important than any of these dumb symbols of ``national pride``.

SameerJb...Fazl-e-Haq and Saeed Qadir also needed to be mentioned as the beneficiary of the `behtee ganga``. Remember the creation of NLC.

Romair. [At which point they end up commanding militaries against each other. ] Then Major Sahibzada Yaqoob Khan (FM, Gov., & Lt. Gen) commanded Paki troops in Kashmir in 1948 against his major brother in Indian Army.

stuka #15 My point is exactly that the induction of (revolutionizing) new military technology in south asia is NOT reflected in the military strategy of either Pakistan or India. The US did indeed fight a WWII style blitzkrieg in Iraq - but that succeeded because (a) the enemy (Iraqi forces) was also basically in the WWII era technologically as well as in terms of strategy - their scud missiles were essentially ineffective, and (b) while superficially the US fought a WWII style campaign, in fact behind the blitzkrieg style ground war as a completely new ``networked military``. As a result, the only real defense the Iraqis attempted was close to Baghdad where their armored columns came out to fight a WWII style battle and were quickly wiped out by US airpower.
The situation in India and Pakistan is different. They both have the ability to inflict incredible damage to their major cities as well as to any massed WWII style military formations, and this situation is not going to change anytime soon. Even if India develops a networked military a la the US, it would never be able to counter the ability of Pakistan to deliver nukes within minutes to places like Delhi etc. as well as to wipe out any massive ground push. The fact that this lesson was until last year at least lost on India is clear from the all out efforts the BJP government made to overrun Pakistan once and for all. The current peace initiatives seem to indicate a growing realization of this change - and is indeed the only option either India or Pakistan have of achieving any serious national objective (I do not consider the ambitions of jingoists on both sides to be part of any serious national objective).

re bbabu #6:

``How competent are the senior level generals in the Pakistani military ?``

The CEO of Goldman Sachs made a statement recently saying only 20% of the people in his firm contributed anything of real value. I agree with him. No matter how much heartburn it caused to the 80%, if the most prestigious firm in the world is like that, what hope is there for the rest of the world? This is by and large true of the Pakistani military also. As nazar pointed out most of the ``professional`` soldiers don`t make it beyond Major and Colonel level. And as you pointed out politics plays a much more important role in climbing up the ladder.

I think just as most Pakistanis believe that the BJP and RSS goons get up every morning to plan their latest conspiracy against the Muslims, the Indians also believe that Pakistani generals form a closely knit group that is forever scheming to harm India. Both impressions are probably incorrect. Most generals are political animals who will mould themselves to curry favor with the current commander-in-chief. The man at the top dictates everything. This is what Musharraf means when he talks about ``unity of command``. This subordination to the man at the top does not mean that there are no thoroughly ``professional`` generals in the Pakistani army. They are however generally not in the limelight and fade away quietly to run poultry farms.

The problem as I have pointed out before is not with the individuals but with the institution. Generals should be left to designing elaborate war-games. They should not be allowed to put their plans into action or they shouldn`t be asked to run our Universities or our foreign policy.

later
-sac

Tahmed # 9,
Janaab, I think my post hurt your national pride not mine. And yes I`m not interested in paper indo-pak wars either. But, if you notice no indian on chowk rationalizes the 1962 defeat as a walkover due to any reasons. Calling a spade, a spade is not wrong.
When you compare the two armies, Pak army turns out to be a law unto itself, while Indian army is just a government arm. Its precisely, this lack of accountability, that has led pak army to launch attacks on india first. Be it 71 or kargil. If they had any sense of strategy, or tactic, they would never have fooled around. Kind of like, Indian army not attcking pak even after amassing a million troops, knowing well that both nations are nuclear powers.

Adios

Nnazar Hayat Khan: Keeping in mind your article, as well as your thoughts published at other times, I would like to ask you a question. I was never in the Armed Forces but having grown up in that atmosphere I have seen it up close. I believe that institutionalized thinking ..a ``don`t rock the boat`` mentality, is a feature of armed forces personnel in general.

The fact that you grew up in an ideological state, went on to join the Air Force, and (i`m guessing here) reached adult maturity during the Ayub era which is nostalgically looked upon by Pak Faujis as a golden era, how have you managed to flesh out such an independent line of thought? Is it your family background, any education outside of the mainstream?

test

Romair # 14

Ali Kuli, son of Gen Habibullah, is a decent person. May be he would have been a safer COAS for Nawaz. Ahmed Kuli his brother is out of Air force and is now in Gandhara Insistries, father`s empire built during Ayub days.

Rahim Yousafzai was our course mate in this course.

We do not need the wisdom and efficiencies of persons like Javed Nasir or Ashraf Qazi at the political level. They are only good for military. They have a tunnel vision on the national affairs and have been a great source of embarrassment and loss to the nation.

sameerJb, aqazi, Stuka, Tehmed32, Sac, Veeresh

I had to put two cold buckets of water over me to make it soft and mellow to be digested by ``Dawn``. They liked it and published it twice with a gap. Some name dropping had to be done to keep the intelligence off my back. Even then Abbas Khattak, the PAF Chief then told me not to write such articles because ``Enemy`` may get to know our thinking. I was by then flying for the PIA.

Stuka - I was a fighter pilot in Air force. My themes are based on my experieces. Maybe forthcoming articles will be on flying and relationships.

Veeresh- Zia, one of our course mates, also became an ISI boss and is presently behind bars put by Musharraf. Incidently, Musharaf himself, a newly promoted excited Brigadier, was one of our Instructors. I bury my past completely not keeping in touch or misusing the contacts I made in official capacity.

Aqazi- My thinking was on right track 20 years back as the turn of events has proved and will continue to prove. I have no complex. Thank God the military system dumped me. I got to enjoy a bit of life.

Romair:

``Indian Sikh Police guy who put down the Sikh uprising in Punjab, ``

HAHA!! KPS Gill!! He is an MA of English Lit and is fond or poetry. Check out a movie called Mahol Theek Hai from your local store to get an idea of Punjab Police immediately in the aftermath of the movement.

nazarhayatkhan: If Ali Kuli Khan was with you in Defence College, that would mean your seniority must be around that or a bit lower than that of Musharraf. If Ali Kuli is the guy who was in contention with Musharraf for the COAS position.

Would you happen to know his younger brother (can`t remember first name) Kuli Khan. I was in Sargodha when he was there. Also, do you know someone named Rahim Yousafzai. I think the later was with Ali Kuli in Defence College also. So maybe you two were together.

My previous reply seems to not have shown up. Basically it is an interesting article. I would say I agree with most of it. The officers of your generation had a much higher living standard within and outside than the officers of today` military. So their views, problems and issues are different from what is faced by soldiers today.

I would not advise any young Pakistani with potential to join the military now. Primarily because the living standards and pay etc. are significantly lower than for the same amount of work and talent, in comparison to a Pakistani civilian life. My colleagues in PIA are living it up, while those in the military are in dire straits.

But if someone is going to join the military, hands down, Pakistan Navy is the best option.

Someone told me Javed Nasir used to be famous as a party animal in the Army, before he became religious. Is that true?

Also, I have Ashraf Qazi is very efficient, and has done a great job with Railways as the minister.

ACM Jamal is a very cultured and sophisticated man. Like an Urdu-speaking poet. He is from the driking and partying group of the Air Force, from what I have heard.

Ali Kuli Khan, unlike his political family, has a good reputation also.

I read in Eric Margolis` book that Akhtar Abdur Rahman and the Indian Sikh Police guy who put down the Sikh uprising in Punjab, are the two most intimidating men he has met in his whole life. And Margolis has met and fought alongside basically everyone from Afghan Mujahideen to US Generals. I wonder if he is right?

TAhmed: You are ignoring the technolgy induction that has taken place. Your WW2 example is accurate inso far as the ground war dominated strategic thinking. But that is in line with strategc objectives as well as geographical reality. The induction of missiles, AWACs etc does change the dimensions of technology. Beyond that any ground war will have superficial similarities to WW2. Iraq 1 can also follow in that category. Iraq 2 is similar to Guedrian`s blitzkreig across France.

stuka #7: The top Pakistani and Indian officers, in their respective military branches, go abroad for Staff College courses. I know quite a few from Pakistan who have gone to UK, Turkey, USA etc. Over there, they are with students from all over the world. Interestingly, in UK etc. the Pakistani and Indian officers and families generally hang out together, to the amazement of everyone else. Since the top officers are at their courses, they end up going to the General ranks in their forces. At which point they end up commanding militaries against each other. While at the same time, they are family friends, from their days in foreign Staff Colleges.

I have always found that interesting.

nazarhayat:

Good article. It seems you have more inside information than romair about Pakistani miliytary.....ah good old days when he ruled over chowk as the sole miltary expert...anyway, I hope you don`t get angry at discouraging comments like #10. Basically, it is your article and your right of whatever you wish to communicate. It would be actually dishonesty for a writer to write for the sake of pleasing as many people as possible.

Do you know that Ashraf Qazi was BB`s choice for COAS but Farooq Leghari appointed Jahangir Karamat as COAS and the begining of estrangement between Farooq Leghari and BB but Jahangir Karamat returned the favor by backing Leghari over firing BB government. Poor Ashraf Qazi has to wait several years to make a killing until Musharraf made him Railways minister. The irony is that now both Farooq Leghari and Ashraf Qazi are in the same boat and Jahangir Karamat is an outtsider but he does not care since the tanks deal with Ukrain....

The best killing in military was perhaps made by Akhtar Abdul Rehman and Zia. While Zia`s killings are still abroad and basically unknown, Akhtar Abdul Rehman`s killings are everywheer between Lahore and Lyallpur, from Peopsi bottling to Sugar Mills. Akhtar Abdul Rehman had several cousins in the military. As the story goes, Akhtar`s son, Humayun had actually lost election in Lahore and victor was announced but three of his cousin now at Brigadier and Major General Ranks made it possible to make him win. Like Zia, Akhtar was also Jullundhari and this khamosh Jullundhari Pathan mujahid made perfect match with Zia and quietly accumulated wealth from Afghan war funds and finally eliminated all signs of corruption at OjhRi camp, Rawalpindi on one fateful morning......

aqazi

I dont know about secularist vs religiosity--all i know is that somebody who is the chief of ISI and who sits with his back to people just because they arent muslim or punjabi or what have you is a sad piece of humanity. The mindset of people who base a country on ethnicity and religion and get into such positions of power--it is insane and sad...shouldnt somebody more progressive and tolerant find these people ridiculously foolish? the fact that somebody is actually writing about that mindset is commendable.

Fact is being `secular` or tolerant doesnt mean u neccessarily become less muslim or christian or whatever. It just means that you dont make another person`s identity a basis for disliking them. Their ability, character and behaviour dictate that rather than their name. It is a philosophy of competence rather than name and social status. Just that. Now tell me that doesnt empower you? that it doesnt make you feel more confident and master of your fate? That decisions about you are based on your competence rather than your name, appearance, religion or social status.

If Pakistan is so good, why do people migrate from the country i.e., societies where identities are not based on competence to a society where it is? a 60 billion dollar question.

This article is a curious mix of insider look and superiority complex. The author seems to hold the view that he`s inherently more intellectual than practically everyone in the Defense College course. And this bias taints all the interactions the author had with anyone. I highly doubt if the author learned anything in the course itself, apart from acting like Bee Khala and criticizing everyone, especially anyone who might, God Forbid, show any religious inclinations.

But of course, a big hit with all the ``secularists``.

Maharana #8 In the war of the incompetents, the least incompetent will no doubt win. I am sorry if your national pride his hurt, but 1971 was basically a walkover and not even a case of the least incompetent winning - with a nonexistent airforce (6 sabre jets), the local population against them, lines of communication impossible due to geography, no natural barriers (mountains etc.) even a more imaginative general than Niazi could hardly have held on for very long. You may find this unacceptable, given the widespread (and UNTHINKING) acceptance in both India and Pakistan that this was a great military victory. But think about it and you will see what I mean. It was a great POLITICAL victory for India no doubt, though. And as much a blessing - albeit in disguise - for Pakistan as it was for Bangladesh. The concept of East and West Pakistan was even more impractical than the defunct UAR (Nasser`s attempt to bring Egypt and Syria together as one country, and there they spoke the same language too).

I am not interested in any of these paper warrior India-Pakistan quarrels on chowk. If you read my post carefully, you will see that my point is not merely that the Indian military is basically ineffective in the context of any future India-Pakistan war.

My point is a little broader than that: My point is that BOTH sides, India and Pakistan, have militaries that are as useless in the nuclear age as Saddam`s airforce was in the recent war. In the nuclear age, their conventional weapons have been rendered ineffective - and that is why while there were 2 full scale wars in the first two decades after independence, there have been 0 wars in the last three decades. The continued heavy reliance on WWII like militaries by both sides is simply an index of their inability to read the writing on the wall. The saving grace is that with nuclearization, these conventional armies can at best serve to back up police (as is being done in Kashmir by India).

Nazar:

I would like to agree with SAC in saying that this was an excellent article. Too bad Fuzair does not come around to Chowk anymore otherwise he too would have enjoyed it.

I`d also like tosay that this is the calibre we expect from you, therefore our surprise at your telling us how to hold a fork and knife during a previous article.

Parag

Tahmed,
#5

``As for tactics, I am only glad that the Indian military is as unimaginative as the Pakistan military when it comes to strategy and tactics.``

The same unimaginative military rendered Pak army useless in 71`s fall of dhaka in 15 days. Please try not go against certain established facts. I do not consider indian military best and fualtless in the world . But on the contrary, with active american support Pakistani army has only been able to capture pakistan repeatedly. In light of all the wars fought between India and Pak and the resulting outcome, Indian military does prove to be a useful instrument of the state for any situation.
What was Pak army`s strategy

---

Talibaan, kaargil. You know the results of that. And I`m sure will continue to see in Pakistan in the coming days.

Adios

sac #4

How competent are the senior level generals in the Pakistani military ?
Even without the ideological crap politics makes it hard for people to rise in the ranks based on merit.

Good to get some insider stories on what what went on (goes on?) at the staff college. Your article also sheds some light on why so many army people think ``Father Military Knows Best`` for Pakistan.
As for tactics, I am only glad that the Indian military is as unimaginative as the Pakistan military when it comes to strategy and tactics. Both militaries are still geared to fighting Germans in North Africa in WWII. Thank God the Brits did not leave India right after WWI, otherwise the military geniuses on both sides would still be basing their thinking around trench warfare.

Technological advances that have taken place since WWII have simply been tacked on to this archaic ``military strategy``. The results are fascinating: Indian Army brings 1 million men on Pakistan borders, complete with armored columns, just like WWII. Pakistan Army responds by sending military to forward bases, again like WWII. THEN Musharaff (the man has street smarts, I`ll grant him that) pulls out the post-WWII weaponry (missile tests, reminder that pakistan retains right to first use of nukes if pushed). Result: The charade is exposed. The million man army from India goes back, the pakistan army calls back people from forward bases. No one questions the financial and economic cost to India of putting one million men on the border to fight a war that can no longer be fought. In Pakistan, no one questions the need for matching India`s charade with a charade of our own. No one asks why we need these massive militaries. The joke on the poverty stricken masses in both countries goes on, as the desi Colonel Blimps on both sides play their war charades.

This is definitely one of the better articles submitted on Chowk for a while. Absolutely on the mark with regard to the makeup of the officers that comprise the three branches of the armed forces.

I have a lot of respect for the author if he actually spoke the words that he did in front of Akhtar Rehman. A lot of people had their lives ruined professionally as well as personally for doing the same. Reminds me of something that appeared daily in the Nawai-waqt. ``The biggest jihad is telling the truth in front of a cruel despot``. A well-known story is about our Petroleum secretary. He asked some very uncomfortable questions in a staff college meeting attended by Zia and was duly thrown out. Being an enterprising man he ended up at Stanford, earned a doctorate in Engineering and went back during BB`s time to claim his (well-deserved) pound of flesh. He has subsequenctly served all governments that have come and gone. Others have not been so lucky.

later
-sac

Nnazar Hayat Khan: I did not know you were in the Air Force. My father attended National Defence College in India in 1993. I will email your article to him. What branch were you in?

Good reading and insight, thanks. Here are some from me . . .

a) The ``religion and gender at home`` formula is how it works here. Still.

b) Politics was simply absent, and as you put it, not required till you aspired to reach Brigadier.

c) Thank you for your compliments to the Navy. I found Pakistani seafarers who I met and/or sailed with to be excellent all around, too, though for the life of us, we Indians could never understand why they were all so universally bad in teen-patti.

d) Your little aside about Navy at 20 knots (or 10, or 30 . . .) is fine, but please to note that this was without brakes or parachutes or whatever. Leading to large dollops of pre-empting.

e) Hindu Kush Mountain is at your end and we are dreaming of Hindu Kingdoms AKhand Bharats?

f) How many bosses from ISI did you know? Akhtar Rehman, Javid Nasser, Ashraf Qazi have been mentioned by you.

Question: Do our countries have the luxury of a few more wasted years?

`` We also actually got Mullas as guest speakers who presentations sounded like Friday prayer sermon. ``

I always believed that the military training includes madrassa inputs and at last one can understand why mushy manuered the jihadists into power. The introduction of the graduate scheme, the hindrence to other parties and the rise to power of jihadists is simply the influence of a large section og the military. These are the kinds of info that ferzok would never dare to mention, a romair would deny and hamid woul phu phu