Bari Imam’s Republic of Peeristan

Re: # 8

[Stupid, perhaps.. irrational defintely! but unislamic? ] <<<< yes... had you known anything about islamic ideology and belief sytem lyou woulnd be asking this question. when something goes against islamic ideology it is called `unislamic`. When one believes in peers they are believing that this human (who is definately not a prophet) knows about the unknown and is connected to the creator and/or speaks to him.

Islamic ideology tells us that only phophets could know about the unknown, and that too generally through revelation. God`s messages were conveyed to prophets to let them know about commandments. Since there will be no more prophets and commandments are complete, there is no need for peers.

the very fact that people make fun of ``fake pirs`` proves that the real thing: the true pirs and awliya of Allah (saints) also exist. It is these awliya of whom Islamic history is replete and who are known to history as Sufi Saints. One of them, Hazrat Khwaja Gharib Nawaz of Ajmer Sharif, alone converted 90 lakhs of Hindus to Islam! Subhan Allah.

The reason I have not jumped to the defence of these awliya, hamidm2, is that Allah is enough to defend His Beloved Ones and also whenever I try to have a serious discussion on here with people about such aspects of Islam most ppl on here respond by making fun of these holy and sacred people--eg some pathetic idiots on here swore at Hazrat Pir Sayyid Mihr Ali Shah Sahib of Golra Sharif who was one of the true pirs and a great saint of Allah. Since I do not want to be responsible on Judgement Day for being the cause of disrespect by some heretics to such great people I decided not to interact on this topic and thread.

Had tappe tey Aouliah, behad tappe tey Pir
Had behad doheen langhawen, us da naam faqir

I was kind’a wondering about that. But given the abstruse nature of our discussion, I figured keh shaid koyee oonchi baat keh gai ha… better not to ask varna baisti na ho jai…

:-)) no worries.

Dear Malangi,

Something happened to my previous post. I never addressed you as a fool Malangi. I think Chowk`s new features are tweaking the interactors` words. My apologies. By the way, a fool to one person may be the wisest to the other person, but still just wanted to make a correction before it causes any misunderstanding.

Thanks.

malangi and sameerjb sahibaan -- what a delightfully laid back-- gentle discussion --

if I may be forgiven -- another view about -- surah Ikhlas -- one of the most rhythmic -- one of the shortest -- yet one of the most eloquently poetic, intellectually deep surah -- (the rest of Quran may be local history) -- –

Qul ho wallah o ahad.. the surah that once made me suspect the hand of God -- is usually used by people on the go -- people in a big hurry doing ‘fast-food namaz’ -- maximum `sawaab` -- minimum time -- minimum effort:-)

A correction to my earlier posting: it is Bikram Choudry (the yoga guru) and not Vikram.

SameerBJ,

As tempting as it is to engage in further discussion, I currently have better occupations for my time, perhaps you do as well, therefore please accept my regrets.

May you increase in knowledge.

Regards.

p.s. One last anecdote before I leave. A friend who is an Afridi Pathan by birth once told me that being a pathan is a state of mind: it has little to do with the area you were born in.

foolMalangi,

Thank you for your perspectives. Unfortunately, I beg to differ with you on both accounts.

For the point under discussion, I will replace ``Saint`` with ``Sage.``

``As the quantity of the idiots and crooks keeps on increasing, there will be fewer and fewer non-idiots (for lack of a better term) who will be available for the saint to impart the true knowledge. ``

I understand your point, but I want to take it a step further. The Sage is not commissioned in any way or shape necessarily to speak to only those who are non-idiots (just copying your expression). Sometimes certain words of wisdom can even change the life of those who apparently wore the garb of a fool. By the way, the term ``fool`` is also a very subjective notion. For example, someone chanting constantly a repetitive mantra on Punjabi this and Punjabi that can seem like a complete insecure fool to the other reader; but to himself he may appear like Gautum Budh or Lord of Wisdom and Logic. Nature has a weird and strange sense of humor when it comes to human beings. But then nature is a mystery; why fiddle with it ?

Another Perspective: One of my good teachers, once upon a time suggested a few strategies in keeping your skills up and running in the game of chess by using the following technique. Practice the game with three kinds of people:-

a) Someone better than you - to learn new techniques and improve your own strategic skills

b) Someone equal to you - to be on the same wavelength and fight at the same level.

c) Someone not as good as you - to be able to teach another person the art of playing well and improving their skills (I revised this based on many things that I`ve learned). That`s a big learning process. Just because you are a teacher does not mean that you do not explore new myths about life every day. On the other hand, the above pointer can also be construed as satisfying one`s ego to kick the hell out of someone who is less competent.

So there are different scenarios that can be applied vs. having just a hard and fast logic.

``Plus, unless the saint “feels” or is commissioned by God (take your pick) to actually impart his knowledge/wisdom to others, why should he (or she)? Historically this seems to be the tariqa (pun intended) of these personages. ``

That`s strange. And it`s probably because we have a different audience in mind. I have no clue on the rip offs and their antics. Sometimes some people deliberately give away their material stuff not because they are fools or like to be ripped off. It`s probably because they like to give the real fools some food for thought. Just my two convoluted cents!

Regards.

malangi:
I am not an Indian by birth. I am sure that plenty of stupid things going on overthere too in the name of religion(s). What I argued were two or more modes of Islamic exploitations in Pakistan - for illiterate villagers and for educated urbanites. There is no point to start another round of discussion about the glory days of Muslims which is just as easily explainable as either the rest of the world was more stupid than Muslims or Muslims produced few good scholars despite being Muslim. Muslims ruled subcontinent for 700 years. Where are their great intellectual or scholarly contributions? How many books written during that period are still popular or in print. As a Panjabi, I see nothing but a Badshahi Masjid, a Shalimar garden, Hiran Minar and peeri-mureedi in Panjab. Even Nawaz Sharif contributed more to the region that all the Islamic rulers of the past combined.

If you like to justify hajj and reading quran slowly or with meanings, just see hajis and those who have read quran slowly and with translation. They are on the forefront of obscurantism, Islamists, fundamentalism, Jihadis, and everything in between. Less you know about Islam, better you are - at least in the world that matters.

Exploitation of others is indeed a manifestation of the lower human desires overcoming the higher self; keeping the rights of others in mind is never the hallmark of such an individual.

It is truly sad if the Brelvis, Deobandi and Wahabis have portrayed such an negative image of Islam that you would be compelled to equate gathering of haj with that if any other urs. There are always people who would be cantankerous when discussing religion, but I do find some blame to be on the contemporary Muslim side as well.

There was a professor who once told me that, in times gone by, Muslims were successful because they considered themselves to be a part of a better value system and, most importantly, they let others be the judge of the excellence of their belief. This in his opinion was not the case in the present time, now what remained at best was just the belief that their value system is better, with little else to show for it.

You are correct in that exchanging sura Ikhlas (and not sura ahad…you are forgiven) with any other sura is not a mind shift. The mind shift is in understanding what you are saying and acting upon it. Unless you believe that a particular mantra or sound would do something for you: a common belief in eastern religions.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a dear friend, an artist, an architect and a one-time cartoonist for The Nation (Pakistan). We were walking after the iftaar and all around there were sounds of tarawhi prayers. I was taken aback by the speed of the recitation and remarked that I couldn’t even make out the separate words much less figure out what was being said. He replied “oh yaar, siraf sunna hota ha (implying that one just has to listen to the voice). My point in brining up his qualifications was to contrast his statement regarding matters of religion with his abilities otherwise.

But SameeBJ is this state of affairs only with Muslims and in Pakistan? What about Guru Rajnesh, who is able to exploit seemingly heads-up individual in the US of A? I mean we do not have the indoctrination, the shariat or the lack of education: there is nothing but challenge to submission in that society. And yet we see same piri-mureedi.

What about people prostrating before Gurumayi (quite a beautiful Indian lady I must confess). I have seen this with my own eyes. Supposedly highly educated doctors and research scientists, prostrating before her picture. I mean it is one thing to bow before a supra-human deity, but a human being!!! And to top it all after the prostration, they all dutifully deposited a handful of dollars each in a small basket.

What about the yogis like Vikram (of Bikram yoga fame) who has been accused of exploiting his position as a teacher and having illicit sexual relations with his students. He said in a recent interview in Newsweek magazine, “No one can mess with me…I have balls like atom-bomb” I laughed when I read this, as I could imagine him saying this in a desi accent J

Or maybe yogi Amrit Desai, who it was stated in that same Newsweek piece that he had to resign from his asharam for charges of sexually exploiting his students.

And the recent “witch-burnings” in India.

The victims here were probably non-Muslims, non-Pakistanis, educated, and had nothing to do with a third world environment.

Anyways. I don’t think I have much more to add to this discussion. I have exhausted my list of interesting anecdotes :-)

Thanks and Regards.

malangi:
It is all about exploitation. Exploitation according to sharia`at requires education or it is forced like Taliban. Peeri-mureedi is like tantra, a methodology, a short cut that requires no education - just follw the order. That is why exploitation of the urbanite middle classes with education is by deobandi, wahabi, barelvi wtc whereas exploitation of illiterate villagers and small town folks is through sufism and peeri-mureedi. I agree that with more education and more urbanization, peeri-mureedi will decrease but other sectarian following of sharia (the actual, original, in essense, true, original and revealed) will go up. There will be less urses at home but more people will go to the mother of all urs in Saudi kingdom. You will be exploited no matter what. You quit beedies addiction for the sake of Marlboro brand and that is it.

.....when an illiterate offers prayer, five times a day or once in a while, it is always surat ahad (qul ho wallah ho ahad) in every rakat whereas educated urbanite uses different surats in each rakat...is it a major break to change surats from stale and repetitive use of same surat over and over?......education for practicing muslims does not make a dent in the situation in Pakistan....because most muslims do not want to use their education to break the back of the camel.....an illiterate idiot muslim is lot less harmful than an educated idiot...an illiterate idiot would happiily participlate in culture whereas an educated idiot one wouldn`t even know the alphabets of cultural identity.....an idiot would sacrifice black goat once a year and educated will sacrifice brown, white or any color goat once a year....what a major shift in mindset?

.....muslims are indocrinated from early childhood through quotes from within religion and society to love to be exploited by religion without challenge....challenge is contrary to submission......education helps to follow it in the original form to score points with god in the way he meant muslims to score point with him.....i.e., sharia`at.....

....most muslim societies are poorly educated and that is why, many people believe that education will solve the religious exploitation problem. That is just not true. If Turkey or the city of Karachi are not considered educated than I wonder what education is. Karachi has no shortage of all the problems associated with exploitation by religion and more so than many illiterate communities in rural Sindh where peeri-mureedi has lock on the exploitation....

Two points:

ZahraJ,

As the quantity of the idiots and crooks keeps on increasing, there will be fewer and fewer non-idiots (for lack of a better term) who will be available for the saint to impart the true knowledge.

Plus, unless the saint “feels” or is commissioned by God (take your pick) to actually impart his knowledge/wisdom to others, why should he (or she)? Historically this seems to be the tariqa (pun intended) of these personages.


nasah,

To feed and shelter homeless at Data Sahib is one thing; Amir Khusro’s creation of the genre of qwwali as a vehicle for enhancing his relationship with his sufi master is one thing; however to go and pray (and not for the deceased) at data sahib or at Ajmer is quite another. How did this come about?

I am not sure if these urses (I like this term) are completely harmless, I see them more as a slippery slope. I hope that this does not make me a wahabi ;-)


Regards.

On taking a step further, all three need to be blamed:

- The idiot first for being taken for a ride and lacking in right insight.

- The saint for not sharing his wisdom with the ones who can avail them.

&

- The crook for taking advantage of the innocent beings.

But they all are acting as their designations suggest so why even blame anyone. I do not have a clear cut logic on that :( In general, the world is full of all kinds of people, good, real good, bad and real bad!

Baat Khatum...

``We shall never be able to wipe such a disease from our society when the government itself promotes it. I recently visited the Pakistan Tourism Board’s official website in which they have mentioned (quite proudly, I must say) about the Urs of Bari Imam, which is celebrated in the first week of May. Even worse, the prime minister of Pakistan, Mir Zafar Ullah Khan Jamali officially inaugurated the Urs with the custom of ‘Chadar Poshi’ this year.``

dear Hala -- aren`t U being a little too harsh on these famous Urses -- don`t you think these well known Urses like Nizamuddin Aulia in Delhi -- and Chishti`s in Ajmer -- are more like non-wahabi quasi cultural funs -- rather than serious religious gatherings?

Post 31:

True. Good Points.

PTV used to show quite a few plays on the same theme in late 80s for the naive and silly souls who will fall prey to such gimmicks.

On the other end, your argument on the true spiritualists and their gifts is indeed true and poignant. With one side of the family being wahabis and the other side having a strong leaning towards spiritualism, I find that a beautiful blend. The best part is that there is mutual respect. Mainly, for where there is love, understanding and sanctity for each others` beliefs, amazing results have been observed.

Lastly, the fact of the matter is, an idiot cannot distinguish between a saint and a crook. Why blame the saint or the crook? Blame the idiot!

There are two things...I wish to add here, firslty that this phenomena of fake spirtualism is going on and on here in our subcontinent for centuries now, and `Dubba peers` as they are termed in local slang have been looting the innocent souls with their cunning tricks for generations, however the sad part of the story is that many of us, who can speak a lot on such forum as we have here, never yell a word when they see even their own beloved ones being exploited by these fake evils.

And second thing is, please donot ever, confuse them with the real ``Allah Wa`llas``. I have seen these `Walli` people and I know that their one word or one prayer can shake and stir your whole life.

These real wallis, who keep a very very low profile all the time and never utter a single word to boost their spirutal well being or religious supermacy, come from every walk of life and donot clad themselves in `Jubbas` and `qabbas` and donot need a cerimonial urs or green chader for thier graves and tombs.