Bari Imam’s Republic of Peeristan

Re: # 8

[Stupid, perhaps.. irrational defintely! but unislamic? ] <<<< yes... had you known anything about islamic ideology and belief sytem lyou woulnd be asking this question. when something goes against islamic ideology it is called `unislamic`. When one believes in peers they are believing that this human (who is definately not a prophet) knows about the unknown and is connected to the creator and/or speaks to him.

Islamic ideology tells us that only phophets could know about the unknown, and that too generally through revelation. God`s messages were conveyed to prophets to let them know about commandments. Since there will be no more prophets and commandments are complete, there is no need for peers.

the very fact that people make fun of ``fake pirs`` proves that the real thing: the true pirs and awliya of Allah (saints) also exist. It is these awliya of whom Islamic history is replete and who are known to history as Sufi Saints. One of them, Hazrat Khwaja Gharib Nawaz of Ajmer Sharif, alone converted 90 lakhs of Hindus to Islam! Subhan Allah.

The reason I have not jumped to the defence of these awliya, hamidm2, is that Allah is enough to defend His Beloved Ones and also whenever I try to have a serious discussion on here with people about such aspects of Islam most ppl on here respond by making fun of these holy and sacred people--eg some pathetic idiots on here swore at Hazrat Pir Sayyid Mihr Ali Shah Sahib of Golra Sharif who was one of the true pirs and a great saint of Allah. Since I do not want to be responsible on Judgement Day for being the cause of disrespect by some heretics to such great people I decided not to interact on this topic and thread.

Had tappe tey Aouliah, behad tappe tey Pir
Had behad doheen langhawen, us da naam faqir

I was kind’a wondering about that. But given the abstruse nature of our discussion, I figured keh shaid koyee oonchi baat keh gai ha… better not to ask varna baisti na ho jai…

:-)) no worries.

Dear Malangi,

Something happened to my previous post. I never addressed you as a fool Malangi. I think Chowk`s new features are tweaking the interactors` words. My apologies. By the way, a fool to one person may be the wisest to the other person, but still just wanted to make a correction before it causes any misunderstanding.

Thanks.

malangi and sameerjb sahibaan -- what a delightfully laid back-- gentle discussion --

if I may be forgiven -- another view about -- surah Ikhlas -- one of the most rhythmic -- one of the shortest -- yet one of the most eloquently poetic, intellectually deep surah -- (the rest of Quran may be local history) -- –

Qul ho wallah o ahad.. the surah that once made me suspect the hand of God -- is usually used by people on the go -- people in a big hurry doing ‘fast-food namaz’ -- maximum `sawaab` -- minimum time -- minimum effort:-)

A correction to my earlier posting: it is Bikram Choudry (the yoga guru) and not Vikram.

SameerBJ,

As tempting as it is to engage in further discussion, I currently have better occupations for my time, perhaps you do as well, therefore please accept my regrets.

May you increase in knowledge.

Regards.

p.s. One last anecdote before I leave. A friend who is an Afridi Pathan by birth once told me that being a pathan is a state of mind: it has little to do with the area you were born in.

foolMalangi,

Thank you for your perspectives. Unfortunately, I beg to differ with you on both accounts.

For the point under discussion, I will replace ``Saint`` with ``Sage.``

``As the quantity of the idiots and crooks keeps on increasing, there will be fewer and fewer non-idiots (for lack of a better term) who will be available for the saint to impart the true knowledge. ``

I understand your point, but I want to take it a step further. The Sage is not commissioned in any way or shape necessarily to speak to only those who are non-idiots (just copying your expression). Sometimes certain words of wisdom can even change the life of those who apparently wore the garb of a fool. By the way, the term ``fool`` is also a very subjective notion. For example, someone chanting constantly a repetitive mantra on Punjabi this and Punjabi that can seem like a complete insecure fool to the other reader; but to himself he may appear like Gautum Budh or Lord of Wisdom and Logic. Nature has a weird and strange sense of humor when it comes to human beings. But then nature is a mystery; why fiddle with it ?

Another Perspective: One of my good teachers, once upon a time suggested a few strategies in keeping your skills up and running in the game of chess by using the following technique. Practice the game with three kinds of people:-

a) Someone better than you - to learn new techniques and improve your own strategic skills

b) Someone equal to you - to be on the same wavelength and fight at the same level.

c) Someone not as good as you - to be able to teach another person the art of playing well and improving their skills (I revised this based on many things that I`ve learned). That`s a big learning process. Just because you are a teacher does not mean that you do not explore new myths about life every day. On the other hand, the above pointer can also be construed as satisfying one`s ego to kick the hell out of someone who is less competent.

So there are different scenarios that can be applied vs. having just a hard and fast logic.

``Plus, unless the saint “feels” or is commissioned by God (take your pick) to actually impart his knowledge/wisdom to others, why should he (or she)? Historically this seems to be the tariqa (pun intended) of these personages. ``

That`s strange. And it`s probably because we have a different audience in mind. I have no clue on the rip offs and their antics. Sometimes some people deliberately give away their material stuff not because they are fools or like to be ripped off. It`s probably because they like to give the real fools some food for thought. Just my two convoluted cents!

Regards.

malangi:
I am not an Indian by birth. I am sure that plenty of stupid things going on overthere too in the name of religion(s). What I argued were two or more modes of Islamic exploitations in Pakistan - for illiterate villagers and for educated urbanites. There is no point to start another round of discussion about the glory days of Muslims which is just as easily explainable as either the rest of the world was more stupid than Muslims or Muslims produced few good scholars despite being Muslim. Muslims ruled subcontinent for 700 years. Where are their great intellectual or scholarly contributions? How many books written during that period are still popular or in print. As a Panjabi, I see nothing but a Badshahi Masjid, a Shalimar garden, Hiran Minar and peeri-mureedi in Panjab. Even Nawaz Sharif contributed more to the region that all the Islamic rulers of the past combined.

If you like to justify hajj and reading quran slowly or with meanings, just see hajis and those who have read quran slowly and with translation. They are on the forefront of obscurantism, Islamists, fundamentalism, Jihadis, and everything in between. Less you know about Islam, better you are - at least in the world that matters.

Exploitation of others is indeed a manifestation of the lower human desires overcoming the higher self; keeping the rights of others in mind is never the hallmark of such an individual.

It is truly sad if the Brelvis, Deobandi and Wahabis have portrayed such an negative image of Islam that you would be compelled to equate gathering of haj with that if any other urs. There are always people who would be cantankerous when discussing religion, but I do find some blame to be on the contemporary Muslim side as well.

There was a professor who once told me that, in times gone by, Muslims were successful because they considered themselves to be a part of a better value system and, most importantly, they let others be the judge of the excellence of their belief. This in his opinion was not the case in the present time, now what remained at best was just the belief that their value system is better, with little else to show for it.

You are correct in that exchanging sura Ikhlas (and not sura ahad…you are forgiven) with any other sura is not a mind shift. The mind shift is in understanding what you are saying and acting upon it. Unless you believe that a particular mantra or sound would do something for you: a common belief in eastern religions.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with a dear friend, an artist, an architect and a one-time cartoonist for The Nation (Pakistan). We were walking after the iftaar and all around there were sounds of tarawhi prayers. I was taken aback by the speed of the recitation and remarked that I couldn’t even make out the separate words much less figure out what was being said. He replied “oh yaar, siraf sunna hota ha (implying that one just has to listen to the voice). My point in brining up his qualifications was to contrast his statement regarding matters of religion with his abilities otherwise.

But SameeBJ is this state of affairs only with Muslims and in Pakistan? What about Guru Rajnesh, who is able to exploit seemingly heads-up individual in the US of A? I mean we do not have the indoctrination, the shariat or the lack of education: there is nothing but challenge to submission in that society. And yet we see same piri-mureedi.

What about people prostrating before Gurumayi (quite a beautiful Indian lady I must confess). I have seen this with my own eyes. Supposedly highly educated doctors and research scientists, prostrating before her picture. I mean it is one thing to bow before a supra-human deity, but a human being!!! And to top it all after the prostration, they all dutifully deposited a handful of dollars each in a small basket.

What about the yogis like Vikram (of Bikram yoga fame) who has been accused of exploiting his position as a teacher and having illicit sexual relations with his students. He said in a recent interview in Newsweek magazine, “No one can mess with me…I have balls like atom-bomb” I laughed when I read this, as I could imagine him saying this in a desi accent J

Or maybe yogi Amrit Desai, who it was stated in that same Newsweek piece that he had to resign from his asharam for charges of sexually exploiting his students.

And the recent “witch-burnings” in India.

The victims here were probably non-Muslims, non-Pakistanis, educated, and had nothing to do with a third world environment.

Anyways. I don’t think I have much more to add to this discussion. I have exhausted my list of interesting anecdotes :-)

Thanks and Regards.

malangi:
It is all about exploitation. Exploitation according to sharia`at requires education or it is forced like Taliban. Peeri-mureedi is like tantra, a methodology, a short cut that requires no education - just follw the order. That is why exploitation of the urbanite middle classes with education is by deobandi, wahabi, barelvi wtc whereas exploitation of illiterate villagers and small town folks is through sufism and peeri-mureedi. I agree that with more education and more urbanization, peeri-mureedi will decrease but other sectarian following of sharia (the actual, original, in essense, true, original and revealed) will go up. There will be less urses at home but more people will go to the mother of all urs in Saudi kingdom. You will be exploited no matter what. You quit beedies addiction for the sake of Marlboro brand and that is it.

.....when an illiterate offers prayer, five times a day or once in a while, it is always surat ahad (qul ho wallah ho ahad) in every rakat whereas educated urbanite uses different surats in each rakat...is it a major break to change surats from stale and repetitive use of same surat over and over?......education for practicing muslims does not make a dent in the situation in Pakistan....because most muslims do not want to use their education to break the back of the camel.....an illiterate idiot muslim is lot less harmful than an educated idiot...an illiterate idiot would happiily participlate in culture whereas an educated idiot one wouldn`t even know the alphabets of cultural identity.....an idiot would sacrifice black goat once a year and educated will sacrifice brown, white or any color goat once a year....what a major shift in mindset?

.....muslims are indocrinated from early childhood through quotes from within religion and society to love to be exploited by religion without challenge....challenge is contrary to submission......education helps to follow it in the original form to score points with god in the way he meant muslims to score point with him.....i.e., sharia`at.....

....most muslim societies are poorly educated and that is why, many people believe that education will solve the religious exploitation problem. That is just not true. If Turkey or the city of Karachi are not considered educated than I wonder what education is. Karachi has no shortage of all the problems associated with exploitation by religion and more so than many illiterate communities in rural Sindh where peeri-mureedi has lock on the exploitation....

Two points:

ZahraJ,

As the quantity of the idiots and crooks keeps on increasing, there will be fewer and fewer non-idiots (for lack of a better term) who will be available for the saint to impart the true knowledge.

Plus, unless the saint “feels” or is commissioned by God (take your pick) to actually impart his knowledge/wisdom to others, why should he (or she)? Historically this seems to be the tariqa (pun intended) of these personages.


nasah,

To feed and shelter homeless at Data Sahib is one thing; Amir Khusro’s creation of the genre of qwwali as a vehicle for enhancing his relationship with his sufi master is one thing; however to go and pray (and not for the deceased) at data sahib or at Ajmer is quite another. How did this come about?

I am not sure if these urses (I like this term) are completely harmless, I see them more as a slippery slope. I hope that this does not make me a wahabi ;-)


Regards.

On taking a step further, all three need to be blamed:

- The idiot first for being taken for a ride and lacking in right insight.

- The saint for not sharing his wisdom with the ones who can avail them.

&

- The crook for taking advantage of the innocent beings.

But they all are acting as their designations suggest so why even blame anyone. I do not have a clear cut logic on that :( In general, the world is full of all kinds of people, good, real good, bad and real bad!

Baat Khatum...

``We shall never be able to wipe such a disease from our society when the government itself promotes it. I recently visited the Pakistan Tourism Board’s official website in which they have mentioned (quite proudly, I must say) about the Urs of Bari Imam, which is celebrated in the first week of May. Even worse, the prime minister of Pakistan, Mir Zafar Ullah Khan Jamali officially inaugurated the Urs with the custom of ‘Chadar Poshi’ this year.``

dear Hala -- aren`t U being a little too harsh on these famous Urses -- don`t you think these well known Urses like Nizamuddin Aulia in Delhi -- and Chishti`s in Ajmer -- are more like non-wahabi quasi cultural funs -- rather than serious religious gatherings?

Post 31:

True. Good Points.

PTV used to show quite a few plays on the same theme in late 80s for the naive and silly souls who will fall prey to such gimmicks.

On the other end, your argument on the true spiritualists and their gifts is indeed true and poignant. With one side of the family being wahabis and the other side having a strong leaning towards spiritualism, I find that a beautiful blend. The best part is that there is mutual respect. Mainly, for where there is love, understanding and sanctity for each others` beliefs, amazing results have been observed.

Lastly, the fact of the matter is, an idiot cannot distinguish between a saint and a crook. Why blame the saint or the crook? Blame the idiot!

There are two things...I wish to add here, firslty that this phenomena of fake spirtualism is going on and on here in our subcontinent for centuries now, and `Dubba peers` as they are termed in local slang have been looting the innocent souls with their cunning tricks for generations, however the sad part of the story is that many of us, who can speak a lot on such forum as we have here, never yell a word when they see even their own beloved ones being exploited by these fake evils.

And second thing is, please donot ever, confuse them with the real ``Allah Wa`llas``. I have seen these `Walli` people and I know that their one word or one prayer can shake and stir your whole life.

These real wallis, who keep a very very low profile all the time and never utter a single word to boost their spirutal well being or religious supermacy, come from every walk of life and donot clad themselves in `Jubbas` and `qabbas` and donot need a cerimonial urs or green chader for thier graves and tombs.

hamidm #23

i think the burning had more to do with
the gender
than with being a spiritual offender.

happened in europe and the US
folks claimed to have been bewitched
but on the wizards
no one snitched

now you`ll understand
why the spiritual offender
is not reduced to tinder
after he
every pir of of the right gender

hamidm #23 IGNORE EARLIER VERSION OF MY POEM IN POST BELOW.

i think the burning had more to do with
the crime of ``wrong gender``
not with that of
``spiritual offender:.

happened in europe and at Salem
folks were bewitched
but on being bewizarded
no one snitched

now you`ll understan`
why in pakistan
the spiritual offender
is not reduced to tinder
every pir after all
is of the right gender

hala malik

your talk of bidaah reeks of wahabi extremism. the piris may be an illiterate and misguided bunch, but at least they are tolerant those who deviate from their version of islam (you never hear them criticizing shias for attending majalis or juloos). a lesson to be learnt here, my friend.

live and let live.

Good point by malangi.

The role of gurus, mullas, sufis and pirs in the west has been taken over by their media, hollywood, and porn websites. Instead of performing all the services as a single institution, they`ve departmentalised the human psychological and physiological needs.

a bit more on the sex connection:

There is a pir in hira-mundi called pir kaki-taar. He conducts what he calls a roohani-mujra, in which the dance performed by his courtesan-followers produces a mystical effect on the viewers (or so he claims). Some years ago this ``roohani`` mehfil, being conducted in a 5-star hotel in Islamabad, was busted by the police and made headlines the next day. Apparently some top bureaucrats were found in a mystical trance in that same gathering. He again made headline a few years later when a similar mehfil was busted in Lahore.

It is sad indeed, that apparently we have only these characters as an alternative to the khushk (dry) ``Islam`` of the mullah. Call it whatever you want, but there is an innate need of us humans to seek a higher power for assistance. It is Universal. You find people going to these pirs and Sufis in Pakistan and you find people prostrating before gurus and other supposedly “awakened” individuals in the US. Not much difference between the high level bureaucrat visiting a pir in Golra Sharif and an educated lawyer from the East Coast of the US going and doing guru-seva in the mountains of up upstate New York at guru-mai’s ashram.

nazarhayatkhan saheb, I agree with you in that people misplace spirituality with the antics of these jokers, however I believe that separating the genuine from the fake is a tall order. The “we”, whom you are asking to take corrective action, unfortunately do not have a (recent) history of applying their intellectual capital to religion, as they do to other matters of life. That is why you have, otherwise heads-up people going to these pirs and gurus.

SameerBJ I like your analogy of cigarettes :-)

It`s not only the weak ones who go there. Most powerful go there too. Everybody who goes there has certain delfish motives in his/her mind. It`s not good for the society if the convicted criminals are helped out in any way; but unfortunately, it`s become a part of our culture. Those who help criminals are not condemned; they`re praised and worshiped instead. Our society is suffering from the situation of poor law and order just because of this pshycholoy. Criminals are now dominating in every department of life. Law and order abiding people are suffering ultimately. Many of them are leaving our country just because they find no opportunities without the help of criminals who are the beneficiaries of this pshychology. Decent people are leaving, and they`re leaving. Please stop them.

iT Is all related to psycology.Psychic,illiterate,innocent soul go there.Weep,cry ,vent out and seek salvation.I don`t know what happen on Arus but normally Bari Imam is a hub for establishment.Federal secrtaries,Generenls,all big shots.They visit Gadi naseen,that person has a strong link with goverment.How Bari Imam manipulate the posting,transferand promotion only God knows better?

pir control...............

i think our friends on the wrong side of the border have found the perfect way to control pests like pirs, sufis, gurus, witches, seers and short ugly people .............from the bbc :

``Two women accused of witchcraft have been burned to death by a mob in the eastern Indian state of Jharkhand, police officials have said.
The incident took place in Godda, a tribal-dominated region about 300 kilometres (190 miles) north of the state capital, Ranchi.

According to police, the mob dragged Bahamay Kisku, 35, and Nanka Hembrom, 50, into a field where they were covered in hay and paraffin and set on fire.

The two women were accused of making another villager, Anant Hansda, sick, the AFP news agency reports. ``

............ that will teach them !

p.s. i wonder why our resident pir, hazrat naqshbandi - may the blessings of all prophets, dead and living, be upon him- , is so quite on this subject ............i would think he would be out their defending these miracle workers ..............

The sex connection.

Surprisingly, no one has touched that class of Pirs which pray (and prey) for the childless women.

This is most common in Punjabi villages. The women who do not have a child go to the Pir for the DUM or prayer.

Obviously, the Pir`s process is more biological than just the prayer. Some women even have a fetish for this religious sex.

One Pir in Lahore had this procedure for the act - the woman was required to be alone in the room. Then the Pir would say ``Open the Nala (shalwar tape)``. If the woman opened the Nala of her shalwar, then everything followed as understood by both.

If the woman got a shock and protested, the Pir simply said ``Look at the wall``. On the wall a Nala was hanging with a knot tied.

Hazrat Bari Imam was the Pir of Justice department. He had very powerful underhand connections with the judges. He could get his criminal mureeds released even from the death sentence. The top judeges were his khas mureeds. He was very influential in their promotions and postings. The holders of his gaddi still hold the same reputation. Anyone who can influence them can get away with anything if the matter goes to the high courts or the supreme court. For example, the biggest crime in Pakistan is the violation of the constitution of Pakistan. The dictators of Pakistan always get away with not only the violation of the constitution but also with the disgrace of it. They keep the gaddi nasheens of Imam bari happy. Our nation is suffering very badly due to all what`s going on in our courts of justice these days. Dictators, corrupt judges and bureaucrats are happy and comfortable. YEH SUB TERA KARAM HEY AAQA - BAAT AB TAK BANI HOVI HEY. They`ll remain happy and comfortable as long as the mela at the shrine of bari Imam is alive.

Peeri faqiri is now a part of Islam. Like Islamiyat, the myth of peers and soofis has been added in the syllabus of our schools and it`s taught in the compulsory Urdu subject from class 1 to class 10. Our so called Ulema and Mashaikh (Gaddi nasheens) hold joint conferences. They`re the essential parts and pacels of the power game of our unfortunate country. Ulema-e-Islam and Muskaikh-e-Islam eik he takrri kay chathay watay hein. We can`t get rid of them. They`ve not only messed up our social life in Pakistan, but they`ve also started following us in western countries where we go to earn respectable living. I hope they`ll not let us live respectably in any part of the world.

Eik jat apni murghi baghal wich daba kay apney pir sahib kole hazir hoya. Pir sahib neiN hazri tha maqsid pochia. Jat ney arz kitti keh tovady dada jan neiN judoN saday pind wich dera laiya see tay oh oss vailay ik faqir sun tay mera daday kole barriaN zameenaN sun. Mera dada tovaday daday diaN ghalaN touN bahut mutasir hoya aur sada tubar onhaN da mureed bun ghiya. Hon suth (60) saal baad nateeja eh nikaliya keh tussi bahut sairaN zameenaN thay malik bun ghay tay saday kole sirf eh murghi bachi hey. Tusi hone eh murghi vee sahnboo tay meiN faqir banan chala jay.

...........actually I am quite serious when I say that peeri mureedi is perhaps the most benign, least innocuous, and only entertaining facet of islam that even a diehard heretic like me can live with ………and it is necessary ………as silly as it might be, it is a fact that most human beings are plagued with fear and superstition and need “spiritual” support to get them through this terrible life, so they turn to nonsense like god and religion and hobgoblins and reincarnation ...........it is just one of those horrible facts of an ashraful maqhlooqat’s life………

..........some of my fondest memories of childhood are associated with visits to a certain pir in kohat ........... my khala and her sister, my mother (god bless her soul) , were convinced that pir sahib could deliver the goods for the price of a black bakra and a chador of roses .........so every time a cousin was bound for issb to pass the test to get into the army, or was having trouble at kakul, or was trapped in east pakistan or was up before the board for promotion, we would be off to kohat ...............we would pack a picinic lunch, the kids would pile into the opel and uncle would crank up the old morris minor and off we would go to pay homage to the pir of kohat ............ it was a treacherous drive in those days – you went through the winding kohat pass and it took hours to go the fifty miles and there was always the cousin who would throw up and the morris would overheat ……… but we didn’t care, we were off to see the pir .........i don’t actually remember seeing the pir, but I do remember all the black bakras who were slaughtered to make sure he put in a good word for us with the almighty ...............and he did.........things worked - everyone got through issb, nobody got thrown out of kakul, nobody was trapped in east pakistan, and the cousin who threw up made general ..........so what’s wrong with that ? ………

............... there are a lot of accidents and many people die on gt road between pindi and lahore , but I have never had so much as a fender bender ........ why?......because I have always thrown a rupee or two when passing by the the mazar on gt road right outside pindi on the road to lahore.............everyone does it, and those who don`t end up dead ............ a few years ago they built a new bridge a few miles upstream from the old mazar, but I was happy to see that the long dead pir sahib was moved to continue protecting the hapless travelers…..… only a fool would get on gt road without spiritual assistance ……

.........so let’s not nitpick little things piree muridee ........... let’s worry about bigger things like hajj which puts the urs of data sahib look like a boy scout gathering .............

Some facts about pirs and Sufis:

1. I don`t why they name the dens of Pirs as TAUNSA SHARIF, GHOLRA SHRIF, etc. Wouldn`t it be more logical and true if they call these places as TAUNSA BADMAASH, GHOLRA BADMAASH etc. You know very well what kind of people own these businesses. If they`re such big badmaash, then how come their forefathers with whom they relate different spiritual stories be smaller badmaash of their times.

2. Anyone can do these cheap tricks which they term as Karamaats. If someone tries to expose their tricks, then they simply kill him.

3. Many of the shrines which they do business with don`t have anyone burried in them. About one of the famous shire many people say that there`s donkey burried int the grave inside that shirine. It could be true. If people like General Zia-ul-Haq can have so many mureeds even when people have heard him what he talked like, then why not a donkey who never had a negative image in people with his nonsense talks.

Qaal Rahguzaar , Mard e Haal shoo
Paish Mard e Kamale, Paamall Shoo

“Leave idle talk aside, and cultivate thy “inner state”; (to achieve this purpose), bow humbly before a consummate personality”.

Rastan azeen parda key bar Jaan i tast
Be madad e Pir na Imkaan i Tast

“Getting rid of the veil that envelops thy soul, is not possible for thee except with the help of a Pir (spiritual guide)”.

If somebody is like as stated , I think it should work -----> Main loha tey mera Haadi paaris , naal assan zara khaeen o yaar

Other wise , What is wrong is wrong.

Tamadan Tassawaf Shariat Kalam
Butan i Ajam ke Pujaari Tamam

Haqeqat Kharafat main khoo gaye
Ye ummat ravayaat main khoo gaye

wo Sufi tha hidmat i Haq main mard
Mohabbat main Yakta , Hamiat main fard

Ajam key hialaat main khoo gaya
Ye saalik muqammat main kho gaya

Bujhi Ishaq ki aag andheer hai
Muslamaan naheen , raakh ka dhair hai

This is a wrong impression that piri mureedi was limited only to the uneducated people in the past and it`s recently become popular in the bureaucracy. The fact of the matter is that peeri mureedi was introduced in Pak-o-Ind by the Turkish bureaucrats also known as Saljok ghulams. Sufis formed an invisible bridge between the opportunist people in the general public and the ruling classes. The bureaucrats who could establish their links with Sufis and Pirs, moved fast upwards in the heirarchy of the establishment. In the later times of the British rule different Pirs monopolised different government departments. For example railway pir, custom pir, police pir etc. Not only the bureaucrats but professional type union leaders were (and still are) among their khas mureeds.

....oh well....on this second day of july in the year 2003 of our lord, I have to take this bitter pill of agreeing to Romair entirely...beware, it will come to pass....

temporal, you see my beard but ignore my turban....it is sameer singh pardesi and not mevlana sameer......SSP, aka jalebi...

hamidm saheb:
The debilitating practices you mention are performed by pirs/ mureeds as well.....difference is that jehad needs backing of resources and power and saudis are not interested in backing pirs, mashaikh and barelvis....not yet!

hala:

…welcome here…wish you had not lifted the lid just yet…was toying with traveling piri-shiri as a golden retirement package for myself…had even toyed with a name…pir saheb of torontoshareef…excellent business proposition…win-win…no down side despite what detractors may claim…had started cultivating mureeds in different cities…oh well…there is still a lot of time…how is the hikmat business there these days?…you know the maahir-e-imraaz-e-posheeda variety?

...t


ps:

and mowlana sameer...disagree with you yet again...a living pir is better than two dead pirs...or was it a pir in hand...

Hala Malik,

I`m with you. I hope Pakistanis quit this Pir/sufis and get back to the 7th century style of living asap.
After all that was the primary fear of jinnah, that muslims of sub-continent may not be able to do so, if they were to be a part of India.
Scr.w Taliban, scr.w everybody else and show the world, what it means to live by the book, and treat the deviants in Islamic style. I don`t understand, what took you folks more than fifty years to realize how unislamic you all are. Look, minorities are less than 5% now. Your experiment with Taliban has shown how beautiful a system can be created with equality for all and sundry, based of course on the holy teachings. Jihadis are being funded as a holy duty by the general population,without giving a thought for their lives.
Don;t wait any longer. Go for it.

Adios

It would be interesting to get Asif Naqshbandi`s comments on this.

Piri (or is it Pir-ee) sounds like a good profession. There is no fixed pay, but a lot of commisssions. The location is good. The health benefits seem good. The working environment seems very nice. There is an established clientile. One can pass on the business to one`s next generation, quite easily, along with the long client list. And all one has to do is give advice and say a few prayers. Almost as good a job as being a psychiatrist, without having to spend ten years in Med School.

There are definitely quite a few educated people in Pakistan who go to Pirs. I suppose when one is desparate, one is willing to do anything. If one has a sick child, and has tried all the doctors, one will go to anyone who can give hope.

The Pirs who charge money are crooks and ripping off others. The ones who don`t charge money or accept any type of gratuity, are alright. In a way, they are providing a public service.n Even though, I doubt it is effective.

The most dangerous Pirs are the ones who are feudals and are in politics. They have a triple threat. They are sajjada nashins and gaddi nashins etc. They get money through their Piri Fakiri, influence thru their lands, and power thru the elected political positions. There is no way they can lose an election. If they do lose, it is only to their cousin, who is also in the same category. I believe Faisal Saleh Hayat and Pir Pogaro etc. fall into this category.

.........piree muridee is the least harmful and deadly of islamic practices .......... the worst is the debilitating ritual that is practiced five times a day, and in between you have things like the insanity of fasting and jihad against infidels ................ actually urs can be a lot of fun - the music in uplifting, the food is good, the women are worth watching, and the drinks are therapeutic - the malangs at bari imam make the best bhang in the sub continent ..........i have never felt closer to god than at the urs of bari imam ...........

soundmeister:
The intro says,
[Before, this disease was limited to the illiterate population of Pakistan, but now it’s becoming more of a fashion for literate and well-known people to be seeing some Pir or Sufi. It’s the latest new trend. ]

There are understandable reasons for the surge in sufi/ pir trend in Pakistan. I do not wish to start India/ Pakistan pissing match so early and will wait until 4th of July to post my opinion about it.

I also agree with sobia that this very good topic could have been presented in much better package....per ab kia kareN? Pirophobia should have been pirophilia in the article.

Unless Pakistanis take off their Islam tinted glasses, kuch hope nahin hai----

How on earth is believing in pirs ``unIslamic``? Stupid, perhaps.. irrational defintely! but unislamic?

When people change their names to Shobhaa and Ektaa or tear down their walls so the door faces another direction, do we call them un-Hindu? Actually we just think their stupid.

And stupidity is the epidemic of the 3rd millennium--- glad to know it`s as prevalent on the other side of the border :))

You are chanting at the wrong spook! The rituals around the Bari Imam shrine are a part of the cutural history of the region. Qawallis, popular celbration, including the crass as well as the sophisticated expression of spitituality go on here. It can be a lot of fun.

Peers have been sought after by the literate people of Pakistan, including the elite forever. The most ridiculous and interesting aspect of it is the adoption of peers by bureaucrats in their early forties, by the time they often start feeling guilty about their daily corruption. There are other incentives too. Peers can pray for promotion, and they can use their ``powers`` to ``rescue`` you when you face a departmental inquiry or other misfortunes.

Best wishes,
tariq

This is just like tobacco companies. Once they promoted smoking cigarettes by extensive marketing and advertisements. Now many of the former smokers wish them to go out of business because they understand the harm of smoking.

Pirs also used same techniques one sees at Bari Imam and other places to convert, once in a while using poetry also to promote their cause. Now some of those addicts wish to go them out of business because they wish to smoke only Camel brand of it while others wish to get over this addiction altogether.

It is good to see some people are concerned about the pirophilia disease but these pirophobes must not then turn around and preach sufiphilia because pirophilia and sufiphilia are two names of same disease and harm of smoking won`t go away by switching to original Camel brand of cigarettes. Cigarettes are cigarettes no matter which brand you smoke.

Bari Imam is nothing what goes on in parts of Sindhs and southern Panjab. Believe me, a dead pir is lot better than an alive pir. One can compare Bari Imam with 10-15 miles away alive pir of GolRa Sharif. His father or grandfather is famous for one couplet, ``kithay Mehr Ali kithar teri sana--gustakh akhiaN kithay ja aRyaN``. Imagine miking one couplet of poetry for three generations at least. At least dead pirs like MiaN Mohammad Bakhsh are known for almost 10 couplets out of 300 page long saif-ul-malook, mostl of them posted by rozaiba on another thread. Bulley Shah Hussein and Ghulam Farid had much better percentage of memorable poems or verses from their poetry. Baba Farid would not have anything famous except Adi Granth made some of his stuff famous.

the topic is interesting but the writing style could have been more engaging; you could have used humor & sarcasm more effectively.

ACTS OF DESPERATION,

Malik,

My dear friend, this is the symptom of a society on its last legs. Reason has left the muslims of pakistan, the future is unpredicatble, crime is on the increase, there are no role models and the poor people are looking some form of comfort, some one to tell them that future cannot be that bad.

This is simply a reflection of the hopelessness and desperation of the pak people, trying to clutch to the word of a pir. Join me to shed a tear for the wretched of the land created in the name of TNT.

Has anyone read Taslima Nasrin`s experiences with a Pir in her autobiography, My Girlhood?

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Hala

You have highlighted an important issue.

These Pirs fill that gap of psychologists and psychtherapists in a poor illetrate society.

The rich who flock to them to fill their need for spirtuality - and of super natural.

This happens in all religions and socities. As long as we are asking for their prayers only whether free or on payment, it may be OK.

What we should never tolerate is their forcing us to imbibe their beliefs or how to run our lives - or how to run our society or country.

We should clearly differentiate between the harmless Pir, Fakir or Sufi, who confines himself to the spiritual aspects. And that other deadly version of the intolerant political Mulla, who has a completely worldly agenda and only uses the garb of religion to promote it.