President Pervez Musharaff’s Views

This is crazy::
#190 by sarwar on July 23, 2003 5:48pm PT
Jihad Industry Gathers Steam in Pakistan
Mon Jul 21, 8:26 AM ET Add World - OneWorld.net to My Yahoo!

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=655&ncid=655&e=3&u=/oneworld/20030721/wl_oneworld/105021058792550
Pakistan needs to do something about these un-employed, un-educated youth in Pakistan who fall easy trap for these jihadi outfit managers with their un-audited charities. Next time you pay to them, be sure that the you have actually paid for a bullet of you local mafiaso who will use it against you someday.

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Naqshbandi #187

`` alephnull/bbabu...thanks for correcting my mistakes..i am not too hot on military stuff at present! ``

I am not an expert on military stuff. A lot of your comments were based on popular misconceptions.

`` From what I have read the PAF badly needs to modernise and i personally think the Russian MiGs (25, 27, 29, 31) and Su-s (27, 30, 35) are our best option. I am sure we can buy them off Ukraine if not Russia itself--with the correct diplomacy. After all Russians need cash--if we can give them the billions of dollars as well as India why should they complain--this way they sell twice the weapons and get twice the revenue...``

Let us examine your last claim. Pakistan defence budget is 2.8 billion if you believe the likes of Romair, HisExcellency. The true figure is close to 4 billion dollars. The military procurement portion is $600 million. This is for all military equipment including spares and munitions. There is not a lot of money to be made selling weapons to Pakistan. India defence budget is $15 billion. Military purchases account for 3 billion dollars. I believe Russia gets 60% of all contracts.

I see no reason why the PAF would need the MiG-25 and MiG-27. Feel free to waste your money. If the MiG-31 exists it has not been offered to any country.

`` China also upgrades many of the RusAF`s best planes and makes them in China itself--eg j-10, j-11 etc. Can`t we get them off the Chinese if the Russians/Ukrainians refuse? ``

The jet engines and other critical parts are imported from Russia.

`` Then there are the latest French planes... Rafale and MiG 2000-5`s...``

Ever check the price tag

`` We also need a high quality interceptor and the MiG 25 is the best...it easily outperforms US planes..I have been researching it...though it is expensive to maintain due to v high fuel consumption... mach 2.83 is much faster than any equivalent US fighter...and it can still do 4.5g maneuvres...(India already has some!!) ``

IAF has 6-8 aircraft for reconnaissance. They are not equipped with air to air weapons.

`` Then I noticed a massive lack of a supersonic bomber in the PAF inventory..this also needs to be remedied...again some of the Russian stuff looks good especially the Tu-22M which India is leasing too... ``

If China was denied the Tu-22M the odds of Pakisttan getting it are zilch. As you noticed Russians would only lease it to India. IAF has 5-10 Tu-22M. I believe they wanted to purchase 100 Tu-22M bombers.

`` Add some AWACs too...

If pak doesn`t get at least SOME of these 4th/4.5th/5th gen planes soon we will be wasted by India...``

Is this some kind of weird wish list ?
The procurement cost of 3 AWACS + 10 Tu-22M + 100 Su-27 + 40 Mirage-2000-5 would be
8 billion dollars. The operational cost of these equipment will be hundreds of millions. With all these additions the PAF would at best be in a draw with the IAF. PAF bases has no defenses against Prithvi missiles which would force them to operate from airfields 200-300 km away from the border. It eliminates their effectiveness.

`` Also how is pakistan`s air defense capability? We need some SAM batteries...preferably American (Arrow/Patriot via the Israelis?--hence my post in unplugged about why we need to recognise israel.--) if not Russian...``

I would not know if the Arrow can be used as an anti-aircraft missile.

some interesting stuff on the MiG 25 Foxbat:

quote

MiG-25 Speed Limit -

...the Foxbat can carry its full weapons load to Mach 2.8, while a clean recon version can do Mach 3+. Actually, the recon versions have the same limit as the interceptors: Mach 2.83. This is not a thrust limit. You might note that the RB versions of the Foxbat can carry four bombs(!) to Mach 2.83. The Mach 2.83 is a theoretical stability limit on the airframe (which has been safely exceeded on numerous occasions by test pilots). At speeds greater than Mach 2.6 however, throttle control must be precise to keep the engines from overspeeding.

Western Fighter Comparisons -

Lest you think that I am implying that the Foxbat is not a capable aircraft, especially in performance, you might consider the abilities of Western fighters. The F-16 can just barely squeak past Mach 2.0 with a pair of tip `winders. The F-14 can only manage Mach 1.81. And the mighty Eagle is only good for Mach 1.78. The Foxbat can outclimb all of these fighters by a healthy margin, and has a mauch better supersonic endurance than the best Western fighter. Furthermore, the Foxbat has demonstrated the ability to outrun all U.S. frontline fighters at _low_ altitude. The Foxbat is hardly a dud.

Gulf War Experience -

Did you know that a MiG-25PD recorded the only Iraqi air-to-air kill of the Gulf War? It dropped an F-18C on the first night of the war--then went on to fire another missile at an A-6 and buzz an A-7, all while avoiding escorting F-14s and F-15s.
An isolated incident? How about the single Iraqi Foxbat-E that eluded eight sweeping F-15s then tangled with two EF-111As, firing three missiles at the Ravens and chasing them off station. Unfortunately, the Ravens were supporting an F-15E strike, and the EF-111`s retreat led to the loss of one of the Strike Eagles to a SAM. Oh BTW, the Foxbat easily avoided interception and returned safely to base.

There`s more. When F-15 pilots were fighting for the chance to fly sweeps east of Baghdad late in the war, itching for a chance to get a shot at an Iraqi running for Iran, they weren`t expecting the fight that a pair of Foxbats put up. Two Foxbats approached a pair of F-15s, fired missiles before the Eagles could get off shots (the missiles were evaded by the Eagles), then outran those two Eagles, four Sparrows and two Sidewinders fired back at them. Two more Eagles maneuvered to cut the Foxbat`s off from their base (four more Eagles tried, but were unable to effect an intercept), and four more Sparrows were expended in vain trying to drop the Foxbats.

The Iraqis had a total of twelve MiG-25PDs at the beginning of the war, of which maybe half were operational at any given time. Imagine what trouble they would have caused if there had been more. The Foxbats, when well flown, proved capable of engaging allied fighters and avoiding them at will. Only the limitations of their weapons proved a problem.


endquote
http://aeroweb.lucia.it/~agretch/RAFAQ/MiG-25.html

alephnull/bbabu...thanks for correcting my mistakes..i am not too hot on military stuff at present!

---

From what I have read the PAF badly needs to modernise and i personally think the Russian MiGs (25, 27, 29, 31) and Su-s (27, 30, 35) are our best option. I am sure we can buy them off Ukraine if not Russia itself--with the correct diplomacy. After all Russians need cash--if we can give them the billions of dollars as well as India why should they complain--this way they sell twice the weapons and get twice the revenue...
**

China also upgrades many of the RusAF`s best planes and makes them in China itself--eg j-10, j-11 etc. Can`t we get them off the Chinese if the Russians/Ukrainians refuse?

**

Then there are the latest French planes... Rafale and MiG 2000-5`s...

**

We also need a high quality interceptor and the MiG 25 is the best...it easily outperforms US planes..I have been researching it...though it is expensive to maintain due to v high fuel consumption... mach 2.83 is much faster than any equivalent US fighter...and it can still do 4.5g maneuvres...(India already has some!!)
**

Then I noticed a massive lack of a supersonic bomber in the PAF inventory..this also needs to be remedied...again some of the Russian stuff looks good especially the Tu-22M which India is leasing too...

***

Add some AWACs too...

**

If pak doesn`t get at least SOME of these 4th/4.5th/5th gen planes soon we will be wasted by India...

Also how is pakistan`s air defense capability? We need some SAM batteries...preferably American (Arrow/Patriot via the Israelis?--hence my post in unplugged about why we need to recognise israel.--) if not Russian...

***

AlephNull #184

`` The Tu-95 Bear, on the other hand, has had a long career – nearly 5 decades – in multiple variants. It is remarkable for being a turboprop capable of attaining speeds more commonly associated with jet aircraft. Originally developed as a bomber, it was adapted to the maritime reconnaissance and ASW role as the Tu-142 Bear-F. The Indian Navy operates 8 Tu-142s in precisely this role.
``
The Indian navy ordered 6 more in addition to the original 8. The Indian navy plans to equip them with anti-ship missiles that have powerful 1000 or 2000 pound warheads.

`` Neither the Blackjack nor the Bear is stealthy. The claim that they ‘outperform’ anything the US has is highly subjective at best – it would depend on the mission - and very questionable.``

They would be sitting ducks for USAF F-16, F-15, F-18 and F-14s. They would need escorts for long range bomber missions which is a problem because the escort fighter aircraft lack the range of the bombers.

`` The Su-37 features canard fore-planes and thrust-vectoring engines as specific innovations in configuration and propulsion over the baseline Su-27. These together with full-digital FBW account for its exceptional maneuverability.``

I believe Su-37 is vaporware or a cosmetic improvement over Su-27/Su-30 platform. Russians are hurting badly for $$$ to fund their advanced research. It is bad in the long run for India because it leaves them at the mercy of USA, France, UK, Israel for advanced technologies.

Naqshbandi #183

I regret that much of your information is antiquated or just plain incorrect.

{{For example it is commonly known that the Tupolev ``Blackjack`` and ``Bear`` are the largest and best bomber aircraft in the world--i seriously doubt the Russians would give these to anyone. They outperform anything even the USA has.}}

The swing-wing Tu-160 Blackjack is the largest bomber in the world and the heaviest combat aircraft ever constructed. It was not built in large numbers (about two dozen) and was never very serviceable. Not too many are reported to be flying in recent years.

The Tu-95 Bear, on the other hand, has had a long career – nearly 5 decades – in multiple variants. It is remarkable for being a turboprop capable of attaining speeds more commonly associated with jet aircraft. Originally developed as a bomber, it was adapted to the maritime reconnaissance and ASW role as the Tu-142 Bear-F. The Indian Navy operates 8 Tu-142s in precisely this role.

Neither the Blackjack nor the Bear is stealthy. The claim that they ‘outperform’ anything the US has is highly subjective at best – it would depend on the mission - and very questionable.

{{As for the Su-37 it exists…The engines, avionics and armaments are also improvements on those originally installed in the SU-27. The AL-37FU engines are configured for thrust vector control … The Su-37 is also equipped with a rearward facing radar in the tail stinger area of the fuselage. The Su-37 features fly-by-wire and relaxed static instability, which along with 3D thrust vectoring give the aircraft tremendous agility. ...}}

The Su-37 features canard fore-planes and thrust-vectoring engines as specific innovations in configuration and propulsion over the baseline Su-27. These together with full-digital FBW account for its exceptional maneuverability.

{{Russia`s Air Force has not ordered any Su-37s. Sukhoi is studying the possibility of developing a two-seat version of the Su-37 with enhanced strike capabilities.`` ... No mention of India!}}

Not so fast. Check out India’s Su-30 MKI, which was custom-ordered from Sukhoi in 1996 and is now arriving in batches about 10 a year to make up an initial set of 50 aircraft, with a further 140 to be built in India. It is a two-seat fighter-bomber which answers exactly to the description of the “enhanced two-seat version of the Su-37” above. It has canards, thrust-vectoring (pitch axis only) AL-31FP engines, a monster radar (Phazotron N-011M) which practically makes it a mini-AWACS, rearward-facing radar in the tail-sting, advanced cockpit displays, other advanced avionics (a mix of western, Israeli and Indian equipment), etc, etc. It is the most potent development of the Su-27 platform currently in service (the Chinese variant Su-30 MKK doesn’t come close in its capabilities - it lacks canards, thrust-vectoring, has a less powerful radar, etc.). Neighbour’s envy, owner’s pride!

{{So Pak should try to get some of the Su-30s and the Su 27 and MiG 29 and Mig 31 if we can}}

You are by no means the first Pakistani to have thought along those lines. Check out this plaintive lament by Air Marshal (Retd) Ayaz Ahmed Khan:

http://www.piads.com.pk/users/piads/ayaz1.html

{ … The Russian refusal to sell combat aircraft to Pakistan amounts to a failure of Pakistani diplomacy.…. The Su-27 has already been evaluated by the PAF fighter pilots, who are duly impressed by its high performance. Renewed efforts are required at PAF and government levels to procure the Su-27 from Russia. The deal should be on the pattern of the one struck between Moscow and New Delhi. At least 50 Su-27s, modified to PAF requirements, should be ordered to balance out the air power gap with India.}

Unfortunately for Pakistan, India has undoubtedly made its massive arms purchases from Russia conditional on advanced Russian armaments not being sold to Pakistan. So unless you can outspend the baniyas, there will be no Russian Sukhois or MiGs for you.

Naqshbandi #183

``bbabu--some of your `facts` on military aircraft are not correct. Go to www.fas.org and you can see what I mean. For example it is commonly known that the Tupolev ``Blackjack`` and ``Bear`` are the largest and best bomber aircraft in the world--i seriously doubt the Russians would give these to anyone. They outperform anything even the USA has.``

The largest bomber aircraft are not the best necessarily. USAF B-52 are effective because USAF establishes complete dominance of the skies. No one would not lose any sleep if the PAF gets 100 B-52s because PAF could never achieve complete dominance. IAF would have a hard time getting that kind of air supremacy versus Pakistan.

The Bear is a turbo-prop aircraft that can be easily shot down by a vintage fighter aircraft. Indian navy has 14 Bears which can be used to hit countries as far as South Africa.
The Blackjack claims are questionable on two grounds. Russians have not mass produced them and have not sold it to foreign states.

The Backfire is the best choice for India, China, Pakistan and even Russia. It is a compromise between speed and payload. India has leased 5-10 of those aircraft.

`` As for the Su-37 it exists..``

It exists on the drawing board. I doubt the prototype described has the full functionality.

`` No mention of India!``

Click on the Su-30. They mention the sale to India.

``So Pak should try to get some of the Su-30s and the Su 27 and MiG 29 and Mig 31 if we can...``

30-40 million a pop if you can convince the Ruskies to ignore India and sell to Pakistan.
India retrofitted Su-30 with Israeli avionics which are a lot superior to Russian avionics.

bbabu--some of your `facts` on military aircraft are not correct. Go to www.fas.org and you can see what I mean. For example it is commonly known that the Tupolev ``Blackjack`` and ``Bear`` are the largest and best bomber aircraft in the world--i seriously doubt the Russians would give these to anyone. They outperform anything even the USA has.

As for the Su-37 it exists..
``The Su-37 is a super-maneuverable thrust vectoring fighter derived from an Su-35 prototype. The Su-37 represents a new level of capability compared with the Su-27 and Su-35. The Su-37 test aircraft made its maiden flight in April 1996 from the Zhukovsky flight testing center near Moscow. This impressive single-seat all-weather counter-air fighter and ground attack aircraft, derived from the SU-27, has an updated airframe containing a high proportion of carbon-fibre and Al-Li alloy. The engines, avionics and armaments are also improvements on those originally installed in the SU-27. The AL-37FU engines are configured for thrust vector control, with the axisymmetric steerable thrust vector control nozzle is fixed on a circular turning unit. The steel nozzle in the experimental engines is replaced in production engines by titanium units to reduce the weight of the nozzle. The nozzle only moves in the pitch axis, and the nozzles on the two engines can deflect together or differentially to achieve the desired thrust vector for a particular maneuver.
The Su-37 has a variety of other innovative equipment such as a radar configured for simultaneous surveillance of airspace and the ground and a high-precision laser-inertial/satellite navigation system. The all-weather digital multi-mode phased array radar operates in either air and ground surveillance modes or in both modes simultaneously. Ground surveillance modes include mapping (with Doppler beam sharpening), search-and-track of moving targets, synthetic aperature radar and terrain avoidance. The Su-37 is also equipped with a rearward facing radar in the tail stinger area of the fuselage. The Su-37 features fly-by-wire and relaxed static instability, which along with 3D thrust vectoring give the aircraft tremendous agility. It incorporates state of the art ECM in wing-tip pods, allowing improved survivability in electronic warfare environments. The Su-37 can carry air-to-air and air-to-surface weapons on 12 stations. The number of missiles and bombs carried can be increased to 14 with the use of multi-payload racks.

Sukhoi used payments earned in the sale of an Su-27 license to China to finance the Su-37 development. Russia`s Air Force has not ordered any Su-37s. Sukhoi is studying the possibility of developing a two-seat version of the Su-37 with enhanced strike capabilities.``

No mention of India!

So Pak should try to get some of the Su-30s and the Su 27 and MiG 29 and Mig 31 if we can...

I read a few days back the Pak Military demanded 70,000 acres plus from Punjab govt and received half the land in Punjab for the purpose of donating the land to Kargil military participants. Besides the point that Pakistan is admitting active military involvement in Kargil my question is this:

What happens when there is no more land to give away to the military in Pakistan. At the rate officers/generals and their families are getting the land, even the feudals may not have any more land.

Aren`t the people getting sick & tired? Besides, Kargil ``heros``!
What heros?

arjun_m #180

I see the link. But the university has no record of any professor - full time or adjunct.

http://www.gwumc.edu/edu/medicine/Edtrain/card.htm

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arjun_m #178

`` chalk up another victory for mushy...first the kargil victory and now this...maybe mushy should stick to collecting rent from farmers..i`m sure he`ll prevail over the farmers.``

you get a lot of $$$ collecting rent

`` A package of $3 billion spread over 5 years, in real terms, comes to less than $600 million per year; the economic content will be less than $350 million/year. In May this year Centcom estimated that Pakistani economy suffered a loss of more than $10 billion since 9/11,as a direct result of US lead operations in Afghanistan. ``In view of this, the package is economically insignificant,`` says Pirzada also a member of the Institute of Strategic Studies in London.``

I seriously question Centcom`s economic analysis. Pakistani exports have not fallen despite a global recession. USA cannot be held responsible for the internal security in Pakistan.

`` The Indian caucus on Capitol Hill has won the day, observes Dr Mubashir Choudry, professor of cardiology in George Washington University, who left Pakistan in 1984 and is currently president of APPNA (Association of Pakistani Physicians of North America) Washington chapter.``

I went to George Washington University cardiology department. No mention of a professor by that name.

``The aid package is so insignificant that it`s not even worth discussing,`` says Washington`s leading cardiologist and senior White House Advisor on Drug Control. Choudry blames America for buckling under Indian pressure. ``Apart from giving this paltry sum, Indians pressured the US to deny Pakistan the F-16s.``

If it is a paltry sum please return the $$$. US taxpayers could use some of it.

`` Moeed Pirzada goes a step further, saying, ``Humbling Musharraf on the question of F-16s, and signalling Israel to sell anti-missile systems to India are deeply disturbing symptoms of US priorities in South Asia. At this moment it will be preposterous to comment as to what kind of defence components will be allowed. If it turns out that Pakistan is persuaded to buy pieces like attack helicopters, and transport planes then a question arises: are we seeing a qualitative change in terms of US desire to turn Pakistan Army into a police force equipped for fighting Islamic radicals rather than a force capable of defending its national frontiers?``

Pakistani army might have to fight Islamic radicals first before they take on India.

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