The Dueling Divas

re: Noorjehan`s songs
To the credit of Noorjehan, she did her best despite the fact that she was not well supported by good musicians. I do not remember the names of even one music director from Pak. I am sure there were some good ones but most Indians would be hardpressed to name even one. OTOH, names like S.D Burman, Naushad are known to most music lovers. These guys were trendsetters. Who can forget the music of Naushad in Ganga Jumna, Ram aur Shyam, Baiju Bawra? And who can forget the music of S.D Burman in Bandhini, Bombay ka Babu, Jewel Thief, Aradhna, Talaash etc?
It is a fact that singers like Lata evolved as the music evolved. Lata herself has given credit to Ghulam Hyder for teaching her how to strike a high note and not sound out of breath. Ghulam Hyder subsequently migrated to Pak and is one of the music directors that old timers would recall. Did he attain the same fame in Pak that he did in India? I doubt it.

Singers learn from music directors and if latter are of the caliber of Naushad of S.D Burman, ordinary singers look good. Noorjehan had a great voice but not good music to back it up. Her voice seems to have been frozen in time. That time belonged to 1947 or thereabout. She did not evolve much after peaking early in the 40s and 50s.
Lata knew that, while she attained great talent, Noorjehan was born with talent. That latter could not attain the same fame as Lata is another matter. Lata often acknowledged the fact that she learnt a lot from her ``didi`` during intial days. She has not forgotten that debt to this day. That is her humility.
Sridhar

re:#13 by wadera
If Paki musicians and singers are better and more creative, explain why Pakis keep listening to Indian songs and watch Indian music? Do not give me the bull about Pakis being more liberal.
Your country has a jehadi culture where everyone from first grade onwards is taught to hate India and everything Indian and yet you guys when you grow up latch on to Bollywood and dance to the tune of A.R Rehman and copy the steps of Madhuri Dixit. Give me a rational explanation. The only thing i can think of is you like what you see. In India, Paki films and music are not so popular (i mean the filmi ones) and so they are not watched.
Sridhar

re:#16 by plats8
I have heard enough of Noor Jehan to form an opinion. Many years ago, we had a 2 hour program in Indian T.V channel in New York (one eg of liberalism here, Ahmedzai take note!) focussed on NoorJehan. I have recorded something like 25-30 songs. Enough exposure to form an opinion.
I am not saying Noorjehan is bad. She is very good but then we are comparing her with an all time great singer, the like of which India may never see again. To just give you an eg, for a long time the Tamil playback singer P.Susheela was often called the ``Lata of South``. If you listen to her old songs, they are very good. So, Noorjehan will face tough competition even from P.Susheela, leave aside Lata. Why are we forgetting Asha? She, i think, is better than Noorjehan.

Suman Kalyanpur was suppressed by Lata! That is news to me. In the heydays when Lata and Md Rafi had some differences over royalties from the songs, Suman Kalyanpur often gave the female voice for duets with Rafi. Some of those songs became very popular but she was not of the same class as Lata.
I have been hearing hindi songs since i was a kid. So i know what i am talking.
Sridhar

Indians and Pakistani Singers:
The relationship is not as one-sided as it is made out to be. Pakistani films never made it to India, even through pirated videos because of their reputation of lower quality. I remember a Muslim Lukhnavi who visited his Pakistani cousin and on return remarked that Pakistanis couldn`t make a decent film if their life depended upon it. This is obviously an exaggeration but that`s the image they have. On the other hand, Pakistani dramas had a very high reputation until a few years ago and were extremely popular among Indians.

Very little Pakistani film music is heard in India (although my ears are still ringing with Iqbal Bano`s old classic, ``ulfat ki nayee manzil ko chala``. But the same cannot be said of non-film music. Noor Jehan`s `mujh se pehli si mohabbat` and various singers` ``Mast qalandar`` are all-time hits in India. Unlike Pakistan, India allows Pakistani commercial artists to perform in India and collect royalties on the sale of their records. Junoon, Abida Parveen, Sabri brothers, Nusrat Fateh Ali, Mehdi Hassan and Ghulam Ali have all performed successfully in India several times and some of them owe their prosperity more to India than to Pakistan. As is well known, Adnan Sami even decided to move to India where he had a bigger market than in Pakistan.
Lately, a slew of Pakistani panjabi singers have also been selling quite a few records in India.

rsridhar #11,

By your own admission, you`ve heard only a few songs of Noor Jehan. Yet you
adamantly claim that she`s a notch below Lata. Isn`t it unfair to make such
a camparison without adequate exposure to both ? We in India never heard
Noor Jehan much, and it is a genuine loss for us. Hearing Lata a lot doesn`t
compensate for it.

About Lata suppressing younger talents, think Suman Kalyanpur.

ahmadzai #12, wadera #13

In the midst of all that musical sensitivity in Pakistan, perhaps you can
tell me what happened to Hindustani Classical music there.Now, here
we`re talking about a 600 year old heritage (with abundant Muslim
contribution) which has essentially disappeared in a half century. And
no, Abida Parveen, Noor Jehan or NFAK for that matter, do not qualify
as classical singers.

Also, care to elaborate as to why Noor Jehan isn`t heard much in
India, but Ghulam Ali/Mehdi Hassan are household names. Must
be all that Indian illiberal reaction to women with excessive make-up.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Leaving aside patriotic impulses and personal prejudices, the only way to evaluate singers and musicians is by the effect they have upon you by their performance.
There are some songs by Lata which can really move you emotionally, but Noor Jehan can leave you literally emotionally ruptured - I`ve been in some of her performances where we were brought to near hysteria.
A singer and song is not constrained by political boundaries - the feelings they arouse are irretrievably expressed. Such was the power when Noor Jehan sang. Such was the case with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. Such was the case with Pathana Khan. Such is the case with Abida Parveen. I hear amazing young singers every day, who incorporate western influences and instruments into their songs but who do not make the mistake of letting them dominate. Listen to Sajjad Ali or Junoon any day, or Hadiqa Kiyani`s ``Boohey Barian`` or ``Yaad Sajjan``...
Pakistan continues to produce real singers - I wonder what happened to the creativity of India`s music treasure? Is it because they have gone so deep into imitating western dances and music that it`s real heritage is being suffocated?

Why is Lata heard more in Pakistan than Noor Jahan in India?

IMHO its only because Pakistanis are more liberal than Indians. Pakistanis are a self-confident lot who have no insecurities in watching Indian movies, listenening to Indian music and buying their products.

As a beginning professional in a FMCG company in an international setting in 90s, my surveys of the market indicated that Pakistanis went for the quality (this may have been our spendthriftness) and that the product originated in India did not make any difference to them. Meanwhile, Indians only went for the India made products, even though the quality would be inferior.

The Indian diaspora and definite tendency to buy their own products resulted in a tremendous increase in their exports that paid rich dividends.

Our current tendencies would also endorse our liberal mindedness. Despite a distinct anti-Pakistanism showed by Indians at each and every level and despite our ``narrow-minded Madrassas based educational system, religious injunctions and values``, we continue to buy their products. Indians OTOH, have a distinct knack for settling for products made in India.

This point was also highlighted by Junaid Jamshaid of Vital Signs. After rounding up his very successful tour of the Gulf, UK, Spain, USA and Canada, he categorically stated that he feels surprised at the Indian attitude that goes as far as boycotting Pakistani offerings. He further added that Pakistanis have no such inhibitions.

On a needless comparison between Lata and Noor, I would always say that Lata`s voice and values were far superior. As a hard rocking musician myself I would say that our band had no problems in playing few tribute songs of Noor with slightly raised up volume of blusey layers of guitar. However, the only time we attempted a tribute song of Lata, we were booed, hissed and jeered off the stage for the common benefit of the humankind :-(

re: the article
There is not even an iota of doubt who is better. Lata scores over Noorjehan in talent, popularity and grace. When was the last time you heard of any controversy associated with Lata? People talk about Lata having prevented newer talents from coming up. Bunkum! She volunatarily gave up accepting Filmfare awards for the best singer after she won it 3 or 4 times to pave way for others. When did you ever hear Noor jehan of doing that? Lata has grace.

When was the last time NoorJehan gave a hit? My Paki friend once told me that it was in the 60s. If you compare the songs of Lata and Noorjehan in the 60s, you will know who is better. Lata reached her peak in late 50s and 60s and then started waning thereafter.
Besides, we living in India, never got to hear Noorjehan. Why should we bother when we were treated to the gems from Lata month after month, year after year. In Pak, Lata is much more heard. That fact is enough to show that she was more popular in the subcontinent.
This is not to depreciate the talent or greatness of Noorjehan but she was one notch below Lata. Of this there is no doubt. If Lata never acknowledged that, that is because she was humble.
Sridhar
P.S: I heard some of Noorjehan`s songs after i came to US. One song i cherish is ``Niyate-shoq bhar na jaye kaheen, to bhi dil se utar na jaye kaheen``. The song is superbly rendered.

Dost-mittar #5

Asha in her early stages actively imitated Geeta Dutt - well into the 60`s, I`d say.
She evolved finely thereafter.

Rozaiba #6

As for carrying the notes effortlessly, may I suggest you sample some of
Parveen Sultana`s work - you maybe pleasantly surprised. As for a more
``throaty`` voice, try Hira Devi Mishra`s thumris.

Just a suggestion. I am not a classical music buff either.

one is not `better` than the other, but each has her place, and by far both are divas... though personally Noor Jehan`s voice carries a lot more raw emotion... May Allah bless her soul, Ameen

hi everyone!
thank you for your comments and constructive criticism...it definitely does help a writer out!
the title`s dueling part really has to do with the fact that both dueled for the throne in our hearts.... every desi has debated who is better of the both....hence, the divas might not have dueled themselves, but the masses seemed to be in constant dispute of who was the queen...
in any case, the duel shouldnt be taken literally....their voices, styles, personalities were almost always in a duel with each other.... each trying to win the people over... perhaps sub-consciously.... but Lata, or Noor Jehan, wouldnt stop at anything for the success they now have today...
thank you all for your comments!

Ok. Lata`s voice was better.

But though I don`t think the two `dueled`, this I say: Nur Jehan was a far superior singer than Lata. I am no classical music or vocal expert- the conclusion is merely based on listening to them sing. Whatever language Nuri sang in, didn`t matter. I have yet to see a more powerful singer who could sing the variety of `notes` she mesmerisingly did.

I remember reading about Nur Jehan`s life at the time of her passing. I think the real tragedy is that in moving to Pakistan Nur Jehan was trapped in a smaller market and, despite her obvious talent, that limited her popularity. Lata, by virtue of having a larger audience, became better known. But Lata did not forget that the trail that was blazed by Nur Jehan and the debt of gratitude she owed her.

Zeeshan:
Thank you for a wonderful write-up on the two legends. I agree with temporal that the title is inappropriate. They never duelled and had too much respect for each other to have liked the word duel to compare them.
I think you would have done better if you had not included the last para. They were both legends in their own rights. Still, I think both Lata and Nur Jehan would have agreed with you but only because Lata is more refined and Allah Wasai (Nur Jehan) was less so.
Lata did imitate Nur Jehan, but she also imitated earlier singers like Amir Bai and others before she discovered her forte. This was not unique to Lata. In some of their earlier songs, both Rafi and Mukesh tried to imitate Sehgal before they were fully established.
Her father did not discover her talents by accident. He was a famous classical musician. Her brother, Hriday Nath Mangeshkar, is also a musician in his own right and has given music for some of Lata`s songs.
And finally, the comparison between Lata and Nur Jehan makes sense mostly in Pakistan. Nur Jehan is known in India only to senior citizens and coinnoisseurs of music. Even Lata is considered passé by the younger fans in India.