The Dueling Divas

long live antimason who suggested `aaj ki raat` on the chowk ... teray bachchay jiey.N ... i had long been looking for it on the net as the one i bought from sadaf was very bad quality and those on net are just 30 sec demos ...

i remember i was completely mesmerized when i happened to see that clip from `jugnu` on STN ... this in fact was the very first ocasion when a clip of any indian movie was broadcast on a pakistani tv channel as far as i can recall ... we have always had all latest indian stuff in our markets but such classics are always rare and mostly bad quality ...

My dearest delectible Paathan! Chamatkaar essay, I really enjoyed it! It was extensive, captivating, and I loved the sensitivity to detail. Also, the social and cultural implications that their careers held was also interesting. You`re an amazing writer.
All the Best!
Can you guess who this is??
Signed,
Amrapalli~Loved by everyone, belonging to no one.

Why does this have to be a conquest?

Each singers`s voice is unique each one`s appeal is timeless.

ussa

Excellent article. I opened it just to check which two singers it was about, but couldnt leave it till i had finished reading it all.

lots of new information for me. i must thank you for this.

best regards,

HH

Antimason #47 - I don`t know NYC - I live in Sindh, in Pakistan. The albums I have are vinyl albums and I am not sure if these are released on CD.
Mercedes Sosa must be available even on CD, I think, because of her standing in Argentina as a national icon for her resistance to the ruling military junta who even jailed and then exiled her. The live rendition is when she returned to Argentina, and there she had the entire stadium on their feet, thousands pouring out their hearts in the roar of their voices as she sang, oh so hauntingly.
This particular version of Sibelius is the best I have heard of the Lemmenkainen Suite (and THE best work of Sibelius, in my humble opinion), Sibelius wrote the piece when he himself was dying of cancer, in the long months of winter in the far North of Finland, his own internal darkness matching the cold heaviness of the snow-laden skies outside, and then finding expression in the brooding mythological Norse legend of a black forest and river, of a sorceress who has enchanted a princess into a black swan and the prince who wages a battle against her ... you can hear the entire story in the orchestral pieces, down to the wild gallop through the wilderness, the loss he feels as he wanders alone, and the deeper, deeper grief of the swan/princess who is unable to express, unable to escape and unable to save him from dismemberment at the hands of the sorceress.
If you are willing to let your mind lose control to your heart ... :) ... then you might want to find el Lebrejano - Flamenco singing at its wildest! Again, there are certain of his performances that are just trancendental ... I have a live cassette recording of it.
Enjoy !

Wadera...
would you know any place in NYC where I could get those pieces you mentioned? thanx in advance!

plats8 #45
I`ve visited the musicindiaonline.com quite a bit in the past - others I visit fairly often are:
http://classical.indianmuseek.com (has a lot of links) and http://www.mydesimusic.com.
Just as an aside, in case you want to hear some shockingly powerful music from other parts of the world, try these:

Mercedes Sosa (from Argentina) - Her live rendition of ``Gracias A LA Vida`` (this version is the one to listen to, sung in front of 60,000+ in a packed Argentinian soccer stadium) - this will make your hair stand up on end - and that is no exaggeration.

``Lemmenkainen Suite`` by Jean Sibelius (from Finland) - the version to listen to is the one by the Helsinki Philharmonic, conducted by Okko Kamu, on the Deutsche Grammaphon label. This is Finnish mythology set to classical music, dark and powerful.

Banjaara #41,

Rashid Khan has prodigious talent, but his taalim has remained rather incomplete
due to the differences with his guru Nisar Hussein Khan. Apparently, Khan-saab
wanted Rashid to marry his grand daughter, but this chap fell in love with a Hindu
girl in Calcutta and settled there, annoying Khan-saab to no end. This limits Rashid`s
repertoire to a handful of ragas - but when he`s on, it is absolutely riveting. He has
also become a sort of a cultural icon in Calcutta these days, and I`m not sure that is
a good thing.

Did read the article on Annapurna Devi on unplugged. Her divorce with Ravi
Shankar and the reclusiveness that followed has been a source of some gossip,
mostly maligning Panditji. Have never heard any of her (very few) records, but
she must have been phenomenal. Her brother certainly is.

Wadera #44,

I have very little exposure to rock music, and have never really appreciated it.
Definitely haven`t heard enough to pass judgment on any of the bands. Perhaps
you could check out musicindiaonline.com to sample some of the musicians
mentioned here, and then seek out extended recordings.

hey guys!
just wanted to know where i could get the recording of Noor Jehan`s and Lata`s joint concert which took place in `82...
maybe anywhere in NYC?
any help would be greatly appreciated!
Z

plats8 #41
I`m glad I managed to convey some of my feelings about music and singers. I would like to know more of India`s truly great singers - I am one of the greatest lovers of music and don`t care where it comes from, as long as I feel it reach me. About Junoon - let me say only this: They do not have the years of a Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan behind them - only time will tell if they live up to the promise they showed in `Parvaaz``. That is the difference here. I will give you another analogy: When I first heard ``New Year`s Day`` in `83 or so, I was stunned. I hunted down the album and got it. My good friend and classmate thought they were a one hit wonder, but all I could feel was the passion in both the singing and the guitar. Over time U2 has become one of rock`s greatest. And that is the key here: over TIME. I sense and feel the greatness within Junoon, but I cannot predict they will realize that potential. For that reason I will agree they do not belong with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan or Abida Parveen at this time - but I can tell you this: I`ve been in a few of their performances where they had us in `haal` - truly, truly memorable.

plats8# 41
[I`ve never been trained in classical music, but this I could almost feel in my bones.]

You would be surprised that not many lovers of classical music in this era are trained or educated to understand the nuances of the raaga and its composition, including my self
but it is that unknown factor that seems to hit you in the heart with a painful ecstacy or as you felt its encompassing grip over your bones, when an alaap soars to high heavens
invoking the blessings of Saraswati, that defines a lover of clasical music.I have heard very good comments bout Rashid Khan but have not heard him so far, maybe someday Insha
Allah. I have put up an article about Annapurna Devi at the `` Unplugged`` - literature and fine arts, you might enjoy it.

dost-mittar,
You are welcome. Labour day will meet .

rsridhar #37,

Thanks for mentioning SPICMACAY - well aware of it. It has done a superlative job
of increasing classical music awareness.

My appreciation of classical music has also come rather late, courtesy of a particular concert by Rashid Khan. He sang a bandish in Bhairavi - ``Kahiyo re prabhu`` ; would
strongly suggest dost-mittar and you and Banjaara to listen to it, if you haven`t already. I`ve never been trained in classical music, but this I could almost feel in my bones.

wadera #39,
I realise what you`re trying to say, and agree with much of it. Nusrat`s raspy voice is
almost transcendental - I completely concur. My point (which got lost in all this - my
own acerbic comments included) is that we DO have singers of such exceptional vocal quality in India today - you just have to look beyond Bollywood, which is what Pakistanis mostly get to sample. The Indian music experience is thankfully not defined by Bombay`s film industry, which has increasingly come to represent a beer commercial.

p.s: I am very reluctant to mention Junoon in the same sentence as Nusrat or Abida
Parveen.

Banjaara:
I really enjoyed that article by Prof. Najmi.
As I had said in the beginning, I do not like making comparisons between Lata and Nur Jehan. On my last trip, I went to several stores just to find some old songs of Nur Jehan. I think this obsession of comparing Lata and Nur Jehan seems to be unique to Pakistanis, in India people generally compare Lata with Asha. It is partly because Pakistani film music never became popular in India. So, younger Indians are almost totally unaware of Nur Jehan`s talents. Even the older ones know mostly her old songs.

But Prof. Najmi makes a valid point that Nur Jehan was more versatile than Lata. I do remember several happy songs by her (for example, aaj meray mun mein sakhi baansuri bajaye koyee, from Aan) but I dont think she ever sang any cabaret song. Even Asha has displayed quite a bit of versatility. With Umrao Jaan (Yeh kya jageh hai dosto, yeh kaun sa dayyaar hai) she proved she could do full justice to songs with pathos and poignancy.
Thanks again, for sharing that peace.

plats8:
The concert is on August 16. I`ll tell you how it went after that.

plats8 #33
I saw Noor Jehan sing classical pieces on two different concerts: One in 1970 in Lahore and another in Multan a little earlier. I believe the live recording of the Multan concert is available from Oriental Star. I wasn`t trying to say she was a better classical singer than this or that singer - merely that she had the talent for it - but her passion directed her elsewhere.
You are extrapolating my UK/USA analogy to well over the cliff`s edge - watch out! There is empty air below! The analogy points to the difference in singers (it had nothing to do with the film industry of India/Pakistan). It was an analogy - not a literal comparison.
Music appreciation can never be complete for anyone - not even for professional critics, because in the end we are limited by taste, however broad it may end up being. For me, there is only one purpose - NOT criteria, mind you- but `purpose`. And that purpose is realized only and only by my heart. My mind is seduced by words, verses, technical expertise, perfection of voice and harmonies - but it always takes second place to what occurs within my heart. There, Nusrat`s imperfect voice soars above all perfection, utterly submissive, absolutely powerful. There Abida Parveen and Pathana Khan and others like them reach for the Infinite King with heartbreaking simplicity, with no heroics and no trappings, but with a poignancy that is realized only by those who are giving. So too have Junoon performed beyond themselves - I was present in three such performances. Junoon finally arrived with their album `Parvaaz`, but we have to wait and see if they continue to let music be their Master.
I said it in my last post: bringing up classical music as the yardstick is meaningless because passion cannot be measured. It cannot be rebutted by comparing the quality of classical performers to ghazal singers, etc, because I am trying to put the light on the indescribable that takes place with certain singers but not others.

re:#31 by plats8
There is a popular organisation started by some IITans, called SPICMACAY that is involved in preserving and promoting classical music among young people in India. It has been quite popular in US and India.
http://www2.uiuc.edu/ro/spicmacay/
http://www.spicmacay.surat.8m.com/
Sridhar

re: Classical music in the South
My interest in Carnatic music started with the movie ``Shankarabharanam``. This was a bilingual Telugu/Tamil movie that i saw many years ago. S.P.B`s rendition of some difficult classical numbers was superb and made the classial music better appreciated by laymen like me. Then i heard M.S. Subbulaxmi and i got hooked. I still like to listen to old hindi songs but i think as one matures, one starts appreciating the finer aspects of classical music. Notes which would appear jarring to me many years ago appeared to be well rendered.
If some one wants to just get a feel of Carnatic music, i would recommend the songs from the movie ``Shankarabharanam``. As dost-mittar rightly pointed out, for those used to Ghazals and a different style of music, carnatic music may sound very different and many may not appreciate it.
Sridhar

dost-mittar jee,
Here is an article on the two divas, published in The News, Karachi, a couple of years ago. This is a biased and one sided article by a prof. Najmi, who could do with a bit of editing. I do not agree with the summation of this article for obvious reasons that the learned professor has not put any of Lata`s songs to let the reader see the control, grasp and mastery of her sur, taal , alaap and diction, as he has done in the case of Noor Jahan.I hope the two warring factions would read this piece and enjoy themselves and continue with their debate.

Noor Jehan and Lata Mangeshkar
By Prof Abdul Khaliq Najmi
Both queen of melody Noor Jahan and Lata Mangeshkar are the jewels of the subcontinent. Both are the greatest singers of the 20th century. Both are the brightest stars on the horizon of music. Both have been singing and entertaining music lovers uninterrupted for more than half a century. Both are equally melodic, equally well-versed in classical music. Both are the daughters of musicians, but of mediocre rank and both rose to eminence by dint of their hard work and devotion to music. Both were forced to make early debut to support their ailing parents and large families. Both influenced the music pandits of their time in a way that they had to recognise their talents. Both succeeded in carving room for themselves as talented singers in the presence of giants like Sehgal, Begum Khurshid, Shamshad, Surayya, Uma Devi and Anwari Bai Agraywali etc.

Both ruled the film industry of the subcontinent and without them the Industry would not have flourished to the present position. Both won acclaim of the prominent contemporaries like Feroz Nizami, Syed Kamal Amrohi, V M Viyas, S. Mukerji, Mirza Musharraf, Vermaji, Chawla, Rafique Ghaznavi, Rai Bahadur Chawanni Lal, Nanu Bhai Desai, Giyan Mukerji, Sohrab Modi, Shantosi, Hamansoo Rai Kaldip Kore, Shiyam, Sharmaji, Rafi, Mukesh, Kishore, Mehdi Hassan, Malka Pukhraj, Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and many others. Both have become legends in the subcontinent winning laurels and a large number of prestigious awards. Noor Jahan was recently awarded Nishan-e-Imtiaz.

Both have sung every kind of songs, ranging from low-pitched soft and sad songs to the high-pitched songs, from anthems and milli naghme to the war songs, from children`s lulabi to delirious dance songs, from Rag Vidhya to Dhurpad and from Khiyal Thumri, proving their talents in every field of singing. Both have shown variety, novelty and diversity of the greatest quality. Their melodious voices, sweet mellowness and artistic maturity and cadence are unparalleled and unprecedented. Their voices have been haunting and entertaining the hearts of the subcontinent for so long that they have become timeless legends. Their art have broken all barriers. Lata`s songs are listened to in Pakistan, Noor Jahan is loved in India. Both started their career from Bombay, but Noor Jahan made her debut a bit earlier in Lahore. Both have reached the height of their artistic career step by step maturing gradually and finally touching the culmination of fame.

But their domestic life had been different. While Lata remained unamarried, Noor Jahan led a full matrimonial life, enjoying conjugal bliss, marrying more than once and giving birth to four children.

It is very difficult to make comparison between the two queens. Both are the genius of the age, both sing with equal ease and have command of classical music. While both are the artistic paragons of perfection it is not easy to say who is the better of the two. Lata has a voice that is soft and mellow, while Noor Jahan`s voice is strong. Lata represents the softness, decency, inhibition and introversion of Delhi and Lucknow, while Noor Jahan represents the openness, strength and extroversion of the Punjab. Lata`s voice is so soft and so alluring that it penetrates the listeners` heart. A cuckoo might have been enthralled by Lata`s cooing in the song: Nindya Sey Jagi Bahar/Aisa Mausam Dekha Pehli Bar/Koyel Kookey Galy Malhar. -- such softness and naturalness is not found in Noor Jahan`s voice. Lata`s softness seems to be innate and natural as she does not sing in ``Ragi``, while Noor Jahan sings in ``Ragi`` meaning that she strains her vocal cords, thus rendering her voice an artificiality. In this respect she seems to be less gifted than Lata. But here is the difference which makes Noor Jahan more varied, more novel and more versatile. And this shortcoming of ``Ragi`` , if it is, in any way a shortcoming, has turned into a real ``something`` in her throat. She is able to change, vary, strain, snap, twist and swing her vocal cords according to the demand of the song. Lata with her soft voice has her limitations. It seems to be a chain, curbing her versatility and novelty: making her suitable only for sad songs. There is always lurking sadness in Lata`s voice. Even when she is singing a happy song, she conveys a subtle sadness. Noor Jahan`s God-gifted capability to strain her vocal cords wherever and whenever she desires, has really made her a unique artist. Even in Alaps (prelude modulation), Taans (a stretched key note), Pulteys (Turned-over modulation) and Murkis (sudden metrical zigzag), she is able to produce variety. All the great master musicians like: queen of music Roshan Ara Begum, Amanat Ali Khan, Fateh Ali Khan, Nazakat Ali Khan, Salamat Ali Khan, Ustad Ghulam Ali Khan, Ustad Barkat Ali Khan and Nazar Hussain Shami paid rich tributes to Noor Jahan`s versatility. When Noor Jahan rendered ``Murkis`` even the great Ustads like Bundoo Khan Sarangi player, Abdul Aziz Khan flute player, Fateh Ali Khan Sitar player etc had to be extra careful in following the rise and fall of her voice.

Noor Jahan is also able to produce the effects of deep sorrow and sadness which seems to be only Lata`s speciality. In their song: Jo Bacha Tha Woh Lutaney Key Liyay Aai Hain/Akhri Geet Sonaney Key Liyay Aai Hain -- while she alaps a couplet in alto as prelude to the song, she is able to produce the heart-rending effects of a last-cry of a dying beloved. Similar is the song: Jeo Dhola, Jeo Dhola/Tut Gai Aj Hunjwan Di Mala/Ghar Aya Naeen Karmanwala/ Kher Howay Shala/Jeo Dhola. Her songs in the film Anarkali bear out Noor Jahan`s novelty, diversity, versatility and maturity of the heighest rank. In the song: Banvari Chakori Karay Dunya Sey Chori Chori/Chanda Sey Peyar, the artistic Murkis in the song will always be alive for all future singers as model. Like Lata, Noor Jahan, too, seems to be capable of giving effect of lurking sadness in the song: Aa Bhi Ja/Aa Bhi Ja/Dekh Aa Kar Zara/Mujh Pey Guzri Hae Keya/Teray Peyar Main -- and Sayyoo Ni Meray Dil Da Jani/La Key Neon Tor Gaya Jay/Sayyo Ni Merey Dil Da Jani.

Noor Jahan is capable of producing atmospheric effects with the help of her ``Ragi``. In the song: Rim Jhim, Rim Jhim Parey Phowar/Tera Mera Nit Ka Peyar/--, it seems that it is drizling, outside when she is singing In the song: Sikhre Dopahri Piplee Dey Thaley/Mein Chankayan Wangaa -- Noor Jahan`s voice also contributes to the situation. The hearer himself feels the scorch of the mid-summer long blazing noon. Even the chink of the bangles can be felt in the throat of Noor Jahan. Her song: Sadey Ghar Aai Barjhai/Lakhan Khushian Naal Leai -- denotes general and collective happiness in bride-groom`s house full of near relatives. Here she pronounces the word ``Bharjai`` instead of ``Parjhai`` making one of the multi-faceted differences. In the song: Aj Qaidi Kar Liya Mahi Nooh/Main Chaj Patashay Wandan -- she communicates full-blooded happiness. When she gives alaps and skrill-shouts in between the Asthai (first verse) and the Antra (the following verses), she is able to produce the heightened happy effects in the song. Lata, on the other hand, inspite of her many a happy song, has never succeeded in communicating delirious gladness like it because of the limitation of her over-softened voice. Noor Jahan while in the songs: Sanoo Nehar Waley Pul Tey Bula Key/Khawray Mahi Kithey Rah Geya/-- and Lat Uljhi Suljha Ja Rey Balam/Main Na Lagaoon Gi Hath Rey -- she is pert and coquettish, but she is equally able to communicate the contrary feelings of dire hopelessness and total disappointment in the songs: Ja Apni Hasratoon Pey/Ansoo Baha Key So Ja -- Zinda Hain Kitney Loag Muhabbat Keyay Baghair/Hum Sey Badal Geya Woh Nigahain Tu Keya Howa -- . In the songs: Yar Sadqey, Dildar Sadqey-- and Tum Jug Jug Jeo Maharaj Rey/Hum Teri Nagarya Mein Aaey -- she seems to be in the state of trance. She takes the audience to the height where they feels dissolved into her song. Lata, herself, a number of times, has recognised and acclaimed this novel quality of Noor Jahan`s voice. Thus it seems to be a settled fact that, doubtless, Lata is greater than any of her contemporaries yet Noor Jahan is the greatest.

---

.

dost-mittar #34,

Thanks for your post. I kept feeling that there is a bit of disconnect between what
I was trying to say and what was being conveyed. Anyway, I have found it
disturbing that the Pakistani govt never provided patronage to the extraordinary
classical musicians who moved there (Bade Ghulam, Roshnara Begum, Nazakat/
Salamat). This cannot be a religious issue - Hindustani music has an overwhelming
Muslim presence. Then what was it ? They clearly retained and nurtured the Noor
Jehans and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khans.

You`re right about unknown vocalists in this arena with amazing taalim. That`s
why Anoushka Shankar`s undeserving publicity bothers me - sitarists of her
calibre are plentiful in India. Thankfully, by virtue of SPICMACAY or otherwise,
I think a reasonable-sized audience has been created in India for this.

I haven`t heard anything by Rajendra Kandalgaonkar - please do let me know
how the concert goes. I don`t think Bhimsen has been very prolific in terms of
producing accomplished students.

Antimason:
A word of advice! Don`t waste money on MS Subalaxmi`s music. Don`t misunderstand me. She is every bit as good as Sridhar says she is. But judging from your musical taste as reflected in your posts, she isn`t your cup of tea.

plats8:
I think that you are discussing with the wrong people. The only Pakistani on chowk that I know you could communicate with is banjaara and he is absent from this thread. The Pakistanis on this thread are using the word ``classical`` only in the sense of ``classics``; comparing Noor Jehan to classical singers is like comparing Frank Sinatra to Pavrotti.

I agree with you that the current classical music scene in India is quite vibrant. In fact, classical music and musicians never had it so good in India since losing the patronage of Maharajas and Nawabs. I am a member of the Hindustani Sangeet Mandal here and they keep bringing these wonderful people I had never heard of who are amazing in their training and practice. In fact, there is one coming next weekend, a disciple of Bhimsen Joshi named Rajendra Kandalgaonkar. These people cannot be compared with the Naseebo Lals of Pakistan or the dime-a-dozen Panjabi singers in India and Pakistan. I have heard both Naseebo Lal and Shazia Manzoor and do not mind either but they are in a different category.

wadera #32

Could you please point me to some classical vocal pieces of Noor Jehan ? The
classical-ish renditions that I have heard certainly wouldn`t put her anywhere
near the top. Mind you, this does not take anything away from her position in
the musical genre she was in. Same goes for Lata, Asha etc. In fact, Asha has
reminisced about her experience of recording ``Legacy`` with Ali Akbar Khan
and what that taught her about musicality at the end of a lengthy career.
Interesting read...by the way, I personally consider Ali Akbar Khan to be
God`s very special gift to humankind.

I also do think that classical music has a very special status in the musical
lexicon - both in western and our music. Going into the details of why it is so,
is better left for another time. By the way wadera, Nusrat had a surreal quality
in his voice which was very moving, but so do lots of other people - you can`t
limit your sample set to Udit Narayan or Kumar Sanu. And please don`t keep
mentioning Junoon in this context - their singing is pitifully mediocre; them and
NFAK belong to different sectors of the universe.

What I have tried to point out is that wadera, Antimason and Ahmadzai have a very
incomplete appreciation of the breadth and texture of the various musical traditions
in India. The South has an amazing musical culture, which I know little about and
I`d assume Pakistanis are unaware of. The absence to include this makes your
analysis flawed. The fact that Bollywood movies have songs in them is completely
incidental - film songs should not define the musical experience in any culture.

``In many ways I see a similarity between India/Pakistan which is analagous to that between the UK/USA. The really great musicians and movies/dramas/actors/directors are largely British. The US productions are long on flash but have no substance.``

You`re on a slippery slope with such absolutist statements. Are you suggesting that
Pakistani movies/dramas/actors/directors are not really flashy but are very
substantial ?

Antimason #28,

Since you bring up the issue of English, ``clubbing`` in this context actually refers to
uniting or combining for a common cause. You had put Ravi Shankar/Zakir/Lata/
Rafi together : hence that usage.

Since you bring up the issue of classical ``urdu`` music (theory, at that):
Khayal/Dhrupad bandish-es are very seldom in Urdu, if ever. They tend to be
in the Avadhi/Maithili type languages, mostly (corrections, anyone ?). And
ghazal and khayal are not the same type of music - a ghazal is basically a
rhyming couplet and not a musical composition. It doesn`t have a raag
associated with it.

Amaan and Ayaan are actually glorious exceptions to ``living off the father``
rule (Anoushka being an example of the rule). They are technically extremely gifted
(reminds one of a much younger Amjad), and have a musical instinct unusual
for their age. Shahid Pervez belongs to Vilayat Khan`s family, and has the
technical strength that all family members seem to have.

If you want to listen to a really potent voice, listen to Rashid Khan from the
mid-90`s. In terms of sheer vocal quality, he is essentially unmatched among
the younger classical singers. Lately, he seems to be in a bit of a rut. Most Indian
stores in the US carry his cd`s/tapes.

The musicians I mentioned are in classical music, hence they are popular among
people who listen to that sort of music. That has always been the case. My core
point is unless you have a sensitive audience responding to this art-form, it
wouldn`t continue to flourish ; so, your initial assessment about Indian music falling
to pieces seems untrue. Actually, places like southern India, Bombay, Pune,
Calcutta tend to have a sizable classical music audience. It seems to me that
this audience has by and large disappeared from Pakistan - even my Pakistani
friends with a keen sense of music seemed to be completely unaware of this
treasure that was there.

It is heartening to see that your musical intelligence is well propped up by quoting
poets and thinkers. Unfortunately, it has not persuaded me to compare Lata and
Noor Jehan and assign scores to them.

Having said all that, we can surely agree to disagree. Also, blame my rancour
on a particularly bad day at work ;)

Antimason, and ahmadzai and plats8 - and mainly sridhar (various posts):
Something we have to keep in mind is that classical music is not the epitome or pinnacle of music any more than is blues or rock or ghazals. We are creatures who (thankfully!) have a variety of tastes. What does begin to separate truly great singers and music is their direct connection to the listeners - how far they can take the listener.
What I have seen is that classical music connoisseurs tend to like a more cerebral style versus those who listen to a more earthy, passionate style. So the argument about who is a better singer by virtue of their skill in ``classical`` singing is meaningless. I`ve had some of the best experiences of my life listening to Rais Khan, yet the `dhammal` in Sindh has to be seen to be believed in the throes of its passion. For the record, Noor Jehan could sing classical ragas with the best of them. But she transports us to a raw, naked place when she sings, naked because she strips you of all defences inspite of yourself. All great ones do that.
Yes, Indian films/music are watched and listened to a lot - but I have yet to see an audience transported so far and so completely as in a performance by, say, Pathana Khan or Ustad Rais Khan or Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan - and now with the newcomers like Hadiqa Kiyani, Junoon (when at their best), or Rahim Shah, etc.
I think people watch Indian films because they like them - it is that simple. They like to watch the dances, the actresses, the photography and technical quality etc - but I don`t think they are bowled over by the quality of the script or the song lyrics (not the general run-of-the-mill Indian movie anyway)
In many ways I see a similarity between India/Pakistan which is analagous to that between the UK/USA. The really great musicians and movies/dramas/actors/directors are largely British. The US productions are long on flash but have no substance. In music the old blues and rock greats of America seem to have faded away and the real creative talent seems to come from the small island of UK. I just wonder what happened.

re:#29 by Antimason
Sorry if i sounded critical. I was trying to bring to light some facts which you may not have known.
There is a very selective audience for classical music. That has always been the cause. Light music (including filmi music) are based on classical music (looks less and less the case if one were to listen to bollywood music now-a-days) and are better understood by the masses. Hence the popularity. Both Lata and Noor were well trained in the classical mould but graduated to playback singing. Did Noorjehan continue to render classical music also while singing playback songs? I do not know. Perhaps you can enlighten us. But Lata certainly did not. So, i cannot call her a classical singer but she definitely had a good grasp of ragas as she was trained in classical music.
Interestingly, both male singers who attained great popularity ie Kishore Kumar in North and S.P. B in South are not trained in classical music. That training seems to help but is not necessary as these 2 would attest.
Sridhar

sridhar and plats...
you really dont have to get so charged up...it`s true we`re olny discussing singers, so let`s not think of the situation as being the end-of-the-world type :)
first things first, i think we should agree to disagree :)
secondly, we should, as a result of our ignorances, do some heavy duty desi music listening :)
i have realized that there are several singers whose works i have yet to hear and explore...and i have judged that the same goes for you as well....
do tell me of specific artists who are worth listening to, and some of their best songs...
i have only recently arrived in NYC, and i often browse through the old music section at several desi music stores and find many albums by MS...must be a force to reckon with: she got the padma bhushan, right? :)
anyway, thank you for your criticisms...they have only reiterated the fact that the ocean of knowledge...be it from any field...is vast and un-chartered...lets explore it together! :)

plats...
im not clubbing or bashing anyone as you may think...but your emotionally charged response is certainly aimed at clubbing some of us chowkies here!
all you really need is some lessons in english and maybe some classical music too...or at least the theory of the latter :)
ok fine, the singers you named might not be ``hardcore`` classical singers, but a lot of their less famous stuff, which doesnt make it to the mainstream market, is at least semi-classical, if not classical...a lot really depends on what listeners want...and sometimes, i guess, we just dont want the intricacies...
and by urdu music i mean the use of urdu lyrics in music... typically, ghazal and khayal style of music... sorry for the vague description...
i still stand firm in my view of the future of indian classical music...the singers you took the names of are hardly known to the masses...specifically indi mases... and you say the future is bright? in what quarters or classes of people? and please, dont bother mentioning people who live on the names of their ancestors...im referring to aman and ayan :)
as for the ``nice hierarchy`` ive made, you need not worry...seems like your musical intelligence has failed to notice it, but ill give you the example of famous urdu poet and thinker, Ashfaq Ahmed... he said, Noor Jehan is always comapred to Lata, and vice versa...but the fact is, Lata always stuck to rules...Noor Jehan MADE the rules...he even went so far as to refer to her voice as being a kite whose strings the kite flier let go of....the fact is...her voice really didnt have limits...she created them...
i ask you again to listen to some of her best songs...i really dont know what sort of songs indians hear when they wish to hear her best songs...but lata would really have to bust her butt off if she wanted to get in the groove with Noor Jehan :)

re:#23 by Antimason
Dude,
All you have heard is probably Ghazals and the Hindustani classical (Oops! i know you guys hate that word). I have heard a variety of music, including hindustani, karnatic, ghazals etc. In India, one gets exposed to everything. And who says Noorjehan was not promoted. As if govt of India had decided not to promote her. As if this was possible. People like Ghulam Ali, Mehdi Hassan used to be frequent visitors to India and had a huge following. Noorjehan was totally eclipsed by Lata. That is the hard truth.
Leave aside Lata. I bet you have not heard most of the south indian singers like Jesudas, SPB, P. Susheela etc. Have you listened to M.S. Subbulaxmi? Listen to the soul searching melodies of M.S and you will know what melody is. When M.S sang in Bombay, Lata was usually in the front row listening to her songs. At the 50 year celebrations (of India`s independence) GOI invited M.S to sing in the parliament, which she declined due to old age. Lata took her place. I rate these 2 as the greatest singers India has ever produced.

you are entitled to your opinion. Both Noorjehan and Lata were playback singers. So, popularity is a good measure of who the people liked better. But then who is to say who had a better voice. Some would prefer Noorjehan and others Lata. I was giving only my opinion, which i believe is shared by millions of Indians even in down south.
Sridhar

re:#21 by Antimason
I actually have not heard of any of these singers, musicians that you named in your post. NFAK of course is well known. I recently saw a DVD of A.R Rehman`s concert that happened sometimes ago in NY/NJ. He brought together incredible talents from North and South including people like Kavita Krishnamurthy, Udit Narayan, Hariharan (a south Indian guy who is an incredible Ghazal singer) and the like. He himself sang some good numbers including the Tamil song Humma, humma. In all, good entertaining music. And who do you think were watching? Indians, Pakis, Bangladeshis and many from UAE.
It is stupid to think music scene is done with in India. Only in India is there a huge thirst and market for good music. If not, your Paki singer (Adnan Sami?) would not be in India. You want to know the legends. Here are a few living legends in India still: S.P. Balasubramanyam is a living legend from South, who has sung for many hindi movies in the past (remember a movie: Ek Duje ke liye?). So is Jesudas. And so is A.R Rehman. Legend do not hang on trees to be picked. Who is a legend from Pak at present? NFAK, Noorjehan are gone. So, who is left? You guys sound pathetic when you try to compare the music scenario in Pak and India. There is really no comparison.
Sridhar

re:#22 by Antimason

``indian music`s flirtations with urdu music still havent finished, and that can solely be attributed to noor jehan being the queen of ghazal, film music and punjabi music...can lata be all that? dont think so...``
That is a funny statement. I do not know what to say. Flirtation with Urdu! Well, most of Lata`s songs (as well as most songs to the present day) are in Urdu because the script writers were (many still are) muslims. Heard of Sahir, Majrooh etc? That is what makes the music scene so exciting in India. Religion is relegated to background and for most musicians, music is a religion in itself.
Sridhar

Antimason #21

Actually, both your post and wadera`s thoughts on #13 are, shall we say,
interesting...

I`m sorry to say this, but your assumptions (as that of Ahmadzai/Wadera)
about the contemporary classical music scene in India are weak, at best. I was
bemoaning the non-existence of classical music in Pakistan in my previous post,
so I will stick to that theme. Before you start clubbing Ravi Shankar/Zakir Hussein
/Lata/Rafi and everybody`s second cousin together, it may be worthwhile to find
out what happened to this wonderful genre of music in your country
(Bade Ghulam Ali would be an interesting test case).

I hate to repeat it, but NFAK, Noor Jehan and Abida Parveen are not classical
musicians - in Pakistan, Nazakat/Salamat and their descendants are, as was
Roshnara Begum, as is Rais Khan. Lots of Bollywood singers have had classical
music training - Lata, Asha, Manna Dey etc - doesn`t qualify them as classical
vocalists. Neither does it detract from all of them being great singers.

``Indian music`s flirtation with Urdu music not having ended`` - care to explain
what Urdu music exactly is ?

About post-Ravi Shankar/Zakir musical crises, please listen to recordings of Ulhas
Kashalkar, Rashid Khan, Malini Rajurkar, Amaan and Ayaan Ali Bangash and
Shahid Pervez to begin with, and we can start having a discussion about the future
of Indian classical music and the existing musical sensibilities in that country.

``lata is a notch higher than Noor jehan? i believe the contrary, and so do
other experts on sub-continental music...Noor Jehan was a mega star, Lata,
a superstar``

May we have the names of some of these experts ? And how many steps above
a superstar is a megastar, since we seem to have a nice hierarchy here ?

RE: sridhar # 11...
lata is a notch higher than Noor jehan? i believe the contrary, and so do other experts on sub-continental music...Noor Jehan was a mega star, Lata, a superstar. You may not have heard material by Noor Jehan simply because she was not promoted in India after `65....and that is the reason why you havent heard her hits of the post `60`s era...
lata might be more heard, but the question isnt of poularity or for that matter quantity...think in terms of quality...the choice is clear...

re: # 13 by wadera...
you are very right...i have often thought what happened to indian music after the few legends they had, started waning out...ravi shankar and zakir hussein and lata/rafi are all legends and mastros, but who will carry the torch after them? how many more superstars can india boast of? pakistan, on the other hand, is still producing talented stars and they continue to be true to their music...
try listening to Naseebo Lal, and tell me if you arent mistaking her voice as that of Noor Jehan`s... or try Shabnam Majeed, Shazia Manzoor...even the ``senior`` stars are still going strong...iqbal bano, farida khanum and nayyara noor are still forces junior singers are reckoning with...
i still want to see how india fares out musically after a few years...copying and being influenced by external sources is not worth losing your heritage... india must realize this...

re: #15, plats8...
noor jehan, NFAK and abida not qualifying as classical singers? dude, they are what they are becoz of solid classical music foundations...thats unmistakable, and if you think otherwise, you dont know music AT ALL! :)
if noor jehan isnt a household name, its simply because her forte was not film music, but ghazals and punjabi music...music which has only recently become popular...dont know why mehdi hassan and ghulam ali are big across the border when a legend like noor ji was not promoted...
by the way, ask your elders who`s the real queen...inevitably the greatest song in sub-continental history will come up in the discussion and noor jehan`s name will follow soon afterword...indian music`s flirtations with urdu music still havent finished, and that can solely be attributed to noor jehan being the queen of ghazal, film music and punjabi music...can lata be all that? dont think so...

re: Noorjehan`s songs
To the credit of Noorjehan, she did her best despite the fact that she was not well supported by good musicians. I do not remember the names of even one music director from Pak. I am sure there were some good ones but most Indians would be hardpressed to name even one. OTOH, names like S.D Burman, Naushad are known to most music lovers. These guys were trendsetters. Who can forget the music of Naushad in Ganga Jumna, Ram aur Shyam, Baiju Bawra? And who can forget the music of S.D Burman in Bandhini, Bombay ka Babu, Jewel Thief, Aradhna, Talaash etc?
It is a fact that singers like Lata evolved as the music evolved. Lata herself has given credit to Ghulam Hyder for teaching her how to strike a high note and not sound out of breath. Ghulam Hyder subsequently migrated to Pak and is one of the music directors that old timers would recall. Did he attain the same fame in Pak that he did in India? I doubt it.

Singers learn from music directors and if latter are of the caliber of Naushad of S.D Burman, ordinary singers look good. Noorjehan had a great voice but not good music to back it up. Her voice seems to have been frozen in time. That time belonged to 1947 or thereabout. She did not evolve much after peaking early in the 40s and 50s.
Lata knew that, while she attained great talent, Noorjehan was born with talent. That latter could not attain the same fame as Lata is another matter. Lata often acknowledged the fact that she learnt a lot from her ``didi`` during intial days. She has not forgotten that debt to this day. That is her humility.
Sridhar

re:#13 by wadera
If Paki musicians and singers are better and more creative, explain why Pakis keep listening to Indian songs and watch Indian music? Do not give me the bull about Pakis being more liberal.
Your country has a jehadi culture where everyone from first grade onwards is taught to hate India and everything Indian and yet you guys when you grow up latch on to Bollywood and dance to the tune of A.R Rehman and copy the steps of Madhuri Dixit. Give me a rational explanation. The only thing i can think of is you like what you see. In India, Paki films and music are not so popular (i mean the filmi ones) and so they are not watched.
Sridhar

re:#16 by plats8
I have heard enough of Noor Jehan to form an opinion. Many years ago, we had a 2 hour program in Indian T.V channel in New York (one eg of liberalism here, Ahmedzai take note!) focussed on NoorJehan. I have recorded something like 25-30 songs. Enough exposure to form an opinion.
I am not saying Noorjehan is bad. She is very good but then we are comparing her with an all time great singer, the like of which India may never see again. To just give you an eg, for a long time the Tamil playback singer P.Susheela was often called the ``Lata of South``. If you listen to her old songs, they are very good. So, Noorjehan will face tough competition even from P.Susheela, leave aside Lata. Why are we forgetting Asha? She, i think, is better than Noorjehan.

Suman Kalyanpur was suppressed by Lata! That is news to me. In the heydays when Lata and Md Rafi had some differences over royalties from the songs, Suman Kalyanpur often gave the female voice for duets with Rafi. Some of those songs became very popular but she was not of the same class as Lata.
I have been hearing hindi songs since i was a kid. So i know what i am talking.
Sridhar

Indians and Pakistani Singers:
The relationship is not as one-sided as it is made out to be. Pakistani films never made it to India, even through pirated videos because of their reputation of lower quality. I remember a Muslim Lukhnavi who visited his Pakistani cousin and on return remarked that Pakistanis couldn`t make a decent film if their life depended upon it. This is obviously an exaggeration but that`s the image they have. On the other hand, Pakistani dramas had a very high reputation until a few years ago and were extremely popular among Indians.

Very little Pakistani film music is heard in India (although my ears are still ringing with Iqbal Bano`s old classic, ``ulfat ki nayee manzil ko chala``. But the same cannot be said of non-film music. Noor Jehan`s `mujh se pehli si mohabbat` and various singers` ``Mast qalandar`` are all-time hits in India. Unlike Pakistan, India allows Pakistani commercial artists to perform in India and collect royalties on the sale of their records. Junoon, Abida Parveen, Sabri brothers, Nusrat Fateh Ali, Mehdi Hassan and Ghulam Ali have all performed successfully in India several times and some of them owe their prosperity more to India than to Pakistan. As is well known, Adnan Sami even decided to move to India where he had a bigger market than in Pakistan.
Lately, a slew of Pakistani panjabi singers have also been selling quite a few records in India.

rsridhar #11,

By your own admission, you`ve heard only a few songs of Noor Jehan. Yet you
adamantly claim that she`s a notch below Lata. Isn`t it unfair to make such
a camparison without adequate exposure to both ? We in India never heard
Noor Jehan much, and it is a genuine loss for us. Hearing Lata a lot doesn`t
compensate for it.

About Lata suppressing younger talents, think Suman Kalyanpur.

ahmadzai #12, wadera #13

In the midst of all that musical sensitivity in Pakistan, perhaps you can
tell me what happened to Hindustani Classical music there.Now, here
we`re talking about a 600 year old heritage (with abundant Muslim
contribution) which has essentially disappeared in a half century. And
no, Abida Parveen, Noor Jehan or NFAK for that matter, do not qualify
as classical singers.

Also, care to elaborate as to why Noor Jehan isn`t heard much in
India, but Ghulam Ali/Mehdi Hassan are household names. Must
be all that Indian illiberal reaction to women with excessive make-up.

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Leaving aside patriotic impulses and personal prejudices, the only way to evaluate singers and musicians is by the effect they have upon you by their performance.
There are some songs by Lata which can really move you emotionally, but Noor Jehan can leave you literally emotionally ruptured - I`ve been in some of her performances where we were brought to near hysteria.
A singer and song is not constrained by political boundaries - the feelings they arouse are irretrievably expressed. Such was the power when Noor Jehan sang. Such was the case with Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. Such was the case with Pathana Khan. Such is the case with Abida Parveen. I hear amazing young singers every day, who incorporate western influences and instruments into their songs but who do not make the mistake of letting them dominate. Listen to Sajjad Ali or Junoon any day, or Hadiqa Kiyani`s ``Boohey Barian`` or ``Yaad Sajjan``...
Pakistan continues to produce real singers - I wonder what happened to the creativity of India`s music treasure? Is it because they have gone so deep into imitating western dances and music that it`s real heritage is being suffocated?

Why is Lata heard more in Pakistan than Noor Jahan in India?

IMHO its only because Pakistanis are more liberal than Indians. Pakistanis are a self-confident lot who have no insecurities in watching Indian movies, listenening to Indian music and buying their products.

As a beginning professional in a FMCG company in an international setting in 90s, my surveys of the market indicated that Pakistanis went for the quality (this may have been our spendthriftness) and that the product originated in India did not make any difference to them. Meanwhile, Indians only went for the India made products, even though the quality would be inferior.

The Indian diaspora and definite tendency to buy their own products resulted in a tremendous increase in their exports that paid rich dividends.

Our current tendencies would also endorse our liberal mindedness. Despite a distinct anti-Pakistanism showed by Indians at each and every level and despite our ``narrow-minded Madrassas based educational system, religious injunctions and values``, we continue to buy their products. Indians OTOH, have a distinct knack for settling for products made in India.

This point was also highlighted by Junaid Jamshaid of Vital Signs. After rounding up his very successful tour of the Gulf, UK, Spain, USA and Canada, he categorically stated that he feels surprised at the Indian attitude that goes as far as boycotting Pakistani offerings. He further added that Pakistanis have no such inhibitions.

On a needless comparison between Lata and Noor, I would always say that Lata`s voice and values were far superior. As a hard rocking musician myself I would say that our band had no problems in playing few tribute songs of Noor with slightly raised up volume of blusey layers of guitar. However, the only time we attempted a tribute song of Lata, we were booed, hissed and jeered off the stage for the common benefit of the humankind :-(

re: the article
There is not even an iota of doubt who is better. Lata scores over Noorjehan in talent, popularity and grace. When was the last time you heard of any controversy associated with Lata? People talk about Lata having prevented newer talents from coming up. Bunkum! She volunatarily gave up accepting Filmfare awards for the best singer after she won it 3 or 4 times to pave way for others. When did you ever hear Noor jehan of doing that? Lata has grace.

When was the last time NoorJehan gave a hit? My Paki friend once told me that it was in the 60s. If you compare the songs of Lata and Noorjehan in the 60s, you will know who is better. Lata reached her peak in late 50s and 60s and then started waning thereafter.
Besides, we living in India, never got to hear Noorjehan. Why should we bother when we were treated to the gems from Lata month after month, year after year. In Pak, Lata is much more heard. That fact is enough to show that she was more popular in the subcontinent.
This is not to depreciate the talent or greatness of Noorjehan but she was one notch below Lata. Of this there is no doubt. If Lata never acknowledged that, that is because she was humble.
Sridhar
P.S: I heard some of Noorjehan`s songs after i came to US. One song i cherish is ``Niyate-shoq bhar na jaye kaheen, to bhi dil se utar na jaye kaheen``. The song is superbly rendered.

Dost-mittar #5

Asha in her early stages actively imitated Geeta Dutt - well into the 60`s, I`d say.
She evolved finely thereafter.

Rozaiba #6

As for carrying the notes effortlessly, may I suggest you sample some of
Parveen Sultana`s work - you maybe pleasantly surprised. As for a more
``throaty`` voice, try Hira Devi Mishra`s thumris.

Just a suggestion. I am not a classical music buff either.

one is not `better` than the other, but each has her place, and by far both are divas... though personally Noor Jehan`s voice carries a lot more raw emotion... May Allah bless her soul, Ameen

hi everyone!
thank you for your comments and constructive criticism...it definitely does help a writer out!
the title`s dueling part really has to do with the fact that both dueled for the throne in our hearts.... every desi has debated who is better of the both....hence, the divas might not have dueled themselves, but the masses seemed to be in constant dispute of who was the queen...
in any case, the duel shouldnt be taken literally....their voices, styles, personalities were almost always in a duel with each other.... each trying to win the people over... perhaps sub-consciously.... but Lata, or Noor Jehan, wouldnt stop at anything for the success they now have today...
thank you all for your comments!

Ok. Lata`s voice was better.

But though I don`t think the two `dueled`, this I say: Nur Jehan was a far superior singer than Lata. I am no classical music or vocal expert- the conclusion is merely based on listening to them sing. Whatever language Nuri sang in, didn`t matter. I have yet to see a more powerful singer who could sing the variety of `notes` she mesmerisingly did.

I remember reading about Nur Jehan`s life at the time of her passing. I think the real tragedy is that in moving to Pakistan Nur Jehan was trapped in a smaller market and, despite her obvious talent, that limited her popularity. Lata, by virtue of having a larger audience, became better known. But Lata did not forget that the trail that was blazed by Nur Jehan and the debt of gratitude she owed her.

Zeeshan:
Thank you for a wonderful write-up on the two legends. I agree with temporal that the title is inappropriate. They never duelled and had too much respect for each other to have liked the word duel to compare them.
I think you would have done better if you had not included the last para. They were both legends in their own rights. Still, I think both Lata and Nur Jehan would have agreed with you but only because Lata is more refined and Allah Wasai (Nur Jehan) was less so.
Lata did imitate Nur Jehan, but she also imitated earlier singers like Amir Bai and others before she discovered her forte. This was not unique to Lata. In some of their earlier songs, both Rafi and Mukesh tried to imitate Sehgal before they were fully established.
Her father did not discover her talents by accident. He was a famous classical musician. Her brother, Hriday Nath Mangeshkar, is also a musician in his own right and has given music for some of Lata`s songs.
And finally, the comparison between Lata and Nur Jehan makes sense mostly in Pakistan. Nur Jehan is known in India only to senior citizens and coinnoisseurs of music. Even Lata is considered passé by the younger fans in India.

Lata has a better quality of voice & correct urdue accent.

Nur Jahan could put more emtions into her voice & excelled in Punjabi.

Both have an extra-ordinary control over their voices.

Zeeshan/Anti:

...recall reading this when you put it out on the unplugged...

...see you have not changed your mind about the title:)...had and still do have problems with dueling in the title...the two divas were not dueling at all...(and if they were they ceased to duel after `47)...

...if anything the two legends were complimentary...

...t

Hey Ms. Shah!
I agree with your viewpoint, hence the title of divas dueling. There has been a trend that I have noticed almost invariably. Punjabis and Lahoris love Noor Jehan, whereas Indians and Karachiites love Lata. Maybe that has something to do with it.
Thanx for your reply and your compliments!

Both Lata and Noor Jehan were played in our house and car...but too be honest Lata just a bit more....why just one queen and not two?

Great piece!