The Vagina Monologues

faisaluno # 151

I do not claim anything. My knowledge is limited. But I have not read nor heard any ``maulvi`` extolling the enjoyment of sex from a woman`s point of view. This is in the context of comtemporary religion as understood in South Asia.

This is not to say that women do not enjoy sex. This is only to say that enjoyment of sex is perceived only from the male viewpoint in Islam. Woman is the object. Man is never the object in any sexual discourse. The basic language of Quran is as if coming from a male.

I do not think it is an important issue. Man and woman desire and enjoy sex equally.

The ongoing Saminasha/Stuka debate, with Dost thrown in for good measure -

I have not seen the play, but am trying to understand what this is all about.
Is it fair to paraphrase the arugment thus far as:

Stuka/Dost - VM is a particular female narrative about themselves. It perhaps
qualifies as art, but has very little social relevance in the native South Asian
context. Surely not a harbinger for any real social change in that part of the world.

Samina - Such narratives exist in all sorts of societies, cultures and economic
settings. Perhaps not as a part of dominant discourse, but they are there (natka etc..)
and should be acknowledged.

Where is the disagreement here again ?

faisaluno: please post your evidence. i am interested.

so u think saying the word ``cunt`` is female liberation?....so what level of freedom are we talking here women go out do what ever they want to and still moan over `LIBERATION`
i hope you have recited the Holy Quran once in ur life time how bout catchin up The Holy Book `S translation and meaning as well that might help confused souls like nadia jamil LIBERATE themselves who were so very comfortable with telling the word how they scream while going through an orgasm. First you ladies say that we men should not treat you like objects of pleasure at the same time you want us to delve deep down into your cunts and liberate you...take a break ladies life aint THAT HARD :D

Ali87 # 127,

``Will there be a point in time say 150 years from now there will be hindus accepting that the worship of Shivling wrong?``

The above was your statement on that board. And hence my lengthy post on the relevance and siginificance of Lingum-Yoni worship in India. My intention never has been to act like an editor of islam, please show me instances.
Religious issues aside, I do believe, that sexuality needs to be looked upon in a much more open and healthy way, something that was considered profane west of indian sub-continent.
Today even indian sub-continent is no different in this aspect.
Reviving some aspects of tantric cultures including sexual issues is not a bad idea in my opinion. I`m sure this might be anathema to even bal thackerays and sighals who espouse an islamic version of hindu culture today(no offense intended).
Adios

nazar sahib:

i can produce evidence here from an american academic (and a white women no less!) which completely contradicts your claim about islamic literature and sexuality. however given the fear i have of fatwas against me, i am going to refrain from this action.

roohi
On my first trip as a new bahu to my in-laws ancestral village in rural UP the women sang something called nakta songs (at a married women only group) which I think you can classify as a form of rural VM …

…reminds me of a conversation i had with a friend…he showed me some tapes of giddah?…as he explained them to me…it was a ritual in rural (Indian) punjab…the women celebrated social events and were quite…er…raunchy and explicit…normally those women would be demure and would not look up the elders in the eye…while performing giddah(sp?) they would be merciless towards others…specially the older men and women in this song and dance routine…

…khatam-shud have you heard of anything similar in our punjab?

…t

Ssamina:


Is one`s opinion not valid without external reference? Like I said before, my opinion is out there like everyone else`s. Feel free in not responding to my posts.

Khatum-shud # 141

I am completely with you on your theme and liked your article. However, the mainstream Muslim literature, even Quran & hadith do not recognize the pleasure of sex to a woman. (not that I am a practising Muslim)

There is literature availble, especially in the Sufi school of thought, of which you mentioned, which is all encompassing and is dynamic; and which has an inbuilt ability to change, adapt and move with times. If there is anything that appeals to me in the Islamic thought, it is the Sufi school of thought. It is all about spirtuality and tolerance.

Sorry, my last post was too brief to convey the message.

Lately, you brought up Heer. Waris Shah also falls in the category of Sufi Punjabi poets. Waris Shah and the like were deadly against the typical ``Maulvi``. The South Asian saints were liberal and had followers across the different religions. Islam stuck and spread in South Asia because of these saints. If in the early period of history, Talibanic style of Islam had come to India, it would have been driven out. Talibanic/Wahabi/Sulfi schools are all about rituals, rigidity and intolerance.

Intolerant Islam that we see today is a recent phenomenon - after the break up of the Ottoman empire (First Worl War) and creation of Saudi Arabia. Its roots lie in the house of Saud. The Saudi oil money was channelled into the medreessas of the impoverished countries like Pakistan, Sudan, Somalia, Egypt etc, as charity, along with their Wahabi strict intolerant religious code. The rest is history.

Sharam, Hiya, Pardah, aur Pakeeza Khawateen aur baqi munafiqeen


I am sorry.. I still don`t understand what is wrong with a bunch of women discussing their sexuality ? What is this nonsense called sharam, pardah, hiya? This is all hypocrisy ... bharti nari, Pakistani larki, hindu Sita, aur pakeeza Musalman aurat... this is all the invention of men and the scriptures interpretted and forced down the throats of people ...

Denying natural urges, trying to be all prim and proper about sexual desire .. its all a show.. I admire women who are open and comfortable about their sexuality... I wish there were more women like that in Pakistan. And who gave us men the right to decide what is right or wrong anyway? Let women do what they want... roray atkanay ka koi faida nahin...

I say ... Rise up brave women of Pakistan... lead this nation of wretched fools to greatness...

-Manto

Stuka,

What I have a problem with, is that despite the various examples of text, cultural and literary examples, you have provided NOTHING and continue to argue. Have whatever opinion you want-but if you are not supporting it with anything except your own chauvinism, dont expect jack in response.

Stuka,

Read Dost Mittar`s posts.

dost-mittar: it is fallacious to think that you need to change male attitudes before you can affect women`s lives. To say that is to say that women need to be given their liberation - their freedom, equality, what have you must be handed over. That just does not cut it. To be free you have to embrace your freedom yourself - not wait for someone to give it to you at their convenience. and coming back to the Vagina Monologues, why is it so hard for men to understand that they are about fundamentals? Why is it so hard to accept them as heralds of some kind of change, even if that change comes in the form of a whisper?

question: has no one ever heard of heer?

ali_87: ure missing the point.

nazarhayatkhan: im a little confused about your last post...

Samina:

``You consistantly force yourself and your conservative viewpoints on issues you have very little authority on-like feminism.``

How am I forcing an opinion on anyone else? I am typing up my thoughts same as everyone else. How is that forcing an opinion?


``I dont see anyone else doing that, ``

Really? You don`t see anyone typing up a response either? You don`t see people disagreeing with people? You do not see people projecting alternative points of view?


``and I find it extraordinary that you think that your viewpoint is more valid than all the female interactors here. ``

Please tell me where I said my perspective is MORE valid than any others?

``And, if you are completely unrepetant about it, why have you settled yourself on this board to argue with women who, judging by the interacts, support the VM in varying aspects.``

That is the crux of your problem with me is it not? That I argue with you? That I present an alternative thought or philosophy whgich is not in tandem with yours? Even the author of this article has not questioned my right to argue. You do.

Why? Who died and made you queen? If the author has not said that the board is limited to women or men who agree with her, where the hell do you come up with implying precisely that?

If you do not want to read my posts, feel free to skip them. If you do not want to interact with me, I have no issues with that at all. But you do not have the right or the capability to tell me where and when I shall put forth my opinions. Oh yeah, Roohi has the right to her opinion. Do do you in fact along with everyone else. But the right to have an opinion does not automatically assume that everyone needs to agree with it.

Your mindset is indicative by the following sentence that you wrote..

``your conservative viewpoints on issues you have very little authority on-like feminism.``


Interesting that you mention ``authority`` on certain topics like feminism. Who are you to decide who has authority and who does not? Are conservative viewpoints irrelevant to feminism? On what basis? Coz you said so? I think as a professor you are no longer used to having your ideas challenged in a sustained manner beyond a certain point and that has led you to replicate that situation on chowk as well. Ain`t gonna work.