The Vagina Monologues

Stuka and Samina,

I think both of you are adults and sane beings.

Why engage in useless conversation ? It`s certainly your prerogative to carry on, but I could not resist pointing out the silliness of this interaction.

Kindly send each other a nice email or a harmless hug.

Please stop this thah thah thuk thuk.

Thanks.

plats8 #264:

Your post must have been lost in the process of submission, it was not rejected.

Regards

Chowk Staff

``Apparently your poor mother didnt do you any good staying home- she`s raised a selfish, self centered child who wants the ``consideration`` of the very women he maligns``

Apparently a certain feminists thinks that a self centred male is the fault of a female. Oh the irony ..the irony of it all.

Roohi,

You are correct...plenty of mas raise self centered and selfish children...my impression is that all the best intentions of a parent may not be enough...my husband and I have decided for example that should we start a fam, they will not be watching about, er, 90% of the Hollywood movies out there. We took my husband`s godson to see Bad Boys II at the boy`s request...even tho we badly wanted him to see some well acclaimed movie about a child and a whale...sigh...

Harimau,
Got it. My recent days at Chowk have been a bit more rancorous than I am comfortable with. I need to spend my time over at Sawnet much more.

Plats,

Its frusterating to have to constantly refute the kind of disinformation and stereotype that comes from too many male interactors. It is a constant and infuriating battle that, if you notice, maybe one or two female interactors even bother with. (with the valiant efforts of Khatam Shud). There was an obvious effort on the parts of these interactors to discredit what the VMS were about-and this is insidious paternalism. Please be aware that descriptions like ``defensive``. ``vitriolic`` and ``sanctimonious`` are not without their connotations.

Should I post my CV? Like many women at Chowk, I`ve worked with anti domestic violence programs. I`ve worked in a transitional housing program for homeless women with famillies who fled abusive relationships. And all this in the tri state area with women who are are classified as impoverished by state standards. I am not alone - and I think the work of women on Chowk as well as their intellectual work needs to be recognised-and not belittled.

Chowk staff:

A post of mine that well preceded #260 seems to have disappeared. Is it a
technical problem of some sort, or have I committed a sin here ?

Harimau:

``I thought my specific reference to post #244 (which was addressed by Saminasha to Stuka) would have indicated that I was aiming my barbs at Stuka and people (read, men) who try to tell women what they should do or not do. ``

Listen u oily little piece of shite, u wanna tell me where I am telling women what to do and what not to do?

Plats8:

Hey man, thanks for the effort. Basically my communication with Khatam Shud was actually about VM, where yes, I took my time to realize her point, but I did so.

As far as the other interactor is concerned, I did not initiate contact because we talk at each other and not to each other. She chose to butt in where I was not addressing anything to her.

As far as misogyny is concerned, by the time that remark came out, the conversation had degeneated into personal commentary rather than constructive interaction.

I do agree that my personal take on inter-gender relations is biased simply because in my family women have always been educated and have done what they want. My grandmother was a doctor making more than my grandfather journalist and no one raised an eyebrow. Things like dowry, keeping women sheleterd etc has no space at all in my personal domain, be it friends or family. However, that does not mean I am unaware of gender discrimination beyond the pale. Now my reaction on to this article was the same as it would have if my cousin who lives alone in NYC had started talking about raising consciousness. I would be incredulous if she did that simply because somebody completely independent in a personal and professional sense, who lives, works and fucks on her own terms would hardly have the need to talk of gender based consciousness. Her lifestyle is no different from that of a guy doing the exact same thing because it is based on personal choices. There are no restrictions.

Compare that to gender inequity in South Asia as it exists beyond the elite of socity and you get a fair idea of where efforts can be focused. Now, interacting with the author made me realize that this was reaffirming play. It is an intra-woman affair. Fine. I can accept that. But then why are certain interactors flying off the handle in trying to make men accept that?

My take is they should not even care. Now I do get that perspective from the author but not from the hysterical female interactor.

As far as credibility is concerned, I have never based any of my interacts on theory therefore what I have read or not read is immaterial. Gender interaction takes place in all spheres of life therefore anyone can have a perspetive that is as valid as any others. Besides, if an interactor can claim credibility in talking about a part of the world that she has never experienced living in, well, I think the courtesy can be extended to someone who interacts with women on a daily basis if nothing else.

Plats8:

I appreciated your post because Chowk lacks the presence of reasonable and decent men. A good number of well educated men on Chowk are pretty damn crude. Your reasonably put forth stance stood out and deserved a pat on the back. That`s it :) Please do stick around.

Regards,

PS: I am already damned for being part and parcel of various controversial subjects therefore I`d rather not get into the promotion of any mono-shono logues.

As the poet says...

~Aur Bhee Fiqrae`n Hae`n Zamanae Main ``Monlogues`` Kae Sivaa`

:)

ZahraJ # 258

Thanks. Create more controversy, by all means. First step to disseminate awareness,
as you well know. Unfortunately, the thread has moved far from the artistic merits
of VM at this point.

Saminasha #255

Sorry, it`s me again. I completely agree with you that Hindu misogyny is as bad
as any other religious group - several instances of that in my own family from
even a generation back. If Stuka was trying to imply that somehow the collective
Hindu consciousness is more open to treating women as equals, the ground realities
would prove him wrong. About special cases of his family and yours, I have no
way to contrast ; nor would I want to do it.

``No, if you`ll notice, I`ve QUALIFIED my statements with phrases like ``a majority of men on this board``. A qualifier is an automatic amendment to a generalization. I also stand by my position. Its really a shame, and another reason why I encourage women interactors to go on Sawnet, where this nonsense would not be tolerated.``

C`mon, that is a very weak qualifier, at best. By the way Samina, I do not believe
that you can`t detect the sanctimonious nature of your last sentence. Your earlier
interacts on other boards would make me think otherwise.

On Closure:

Khad.i.ja a.k.a Khatum Shud that was a reasonable closure.

In fact, I thought your other post where you have discussed your family and their sentiments on watching the play was an equally decent closure. Your energetic and fighting spirit to state your cause and create awareness must be appreciated. Keep it up!

I am still not sure if the play is alive and kicking in Lahore ??? I`d love to ask some friends and family to look into it. Hell, I may even end up watching it in Lahore on my forthcoming trip in the next few months :)

Personally, I am having the urge to send out information on this play to a few mailing lists, but am trying to refrain from indulging in controversial subjects :)


Post 254 ``plats8``:

Good points!

OK my turn to be hysterically defensive! What are you saying here Samina ?

``Apparently your poor mother didnt do you any good staying home- she`s raised a selfish, self centered child who wants the ``consideration`` of the very women he maligns.``

``didnt do you any good`` ??? ``she`s raised a ... child`` ???
What does his Mom or her staying home have to do with his (bad) behaviour as an adult? Working Mom`s can`t raise self centered kids?

Ref khatam-shud #250

[harimau: just in response to your last post...you may or may not have referred to me specifically...]

No, I did not. I thought my specific reference to post #244 (which was addressed by Saminasha to Stuka) would have indicated that I was aiming my barbs at Stuka and people (read, men) who try to tell women what they should do or not do.

[...but i`d like to give my side of it anyway....im not here to TELL women what to find their liberation in. i do feel that this is something fundamental even though the cynic in most people may not agree because of the current fashionable status of the monologues. but i did find considerable reason to believe that such sharing can be and is liberating...]

You don`t need to, behn-ji, I am already on your side. While VM can be and IS liberating for women, I think you underestimate its effects on the insecure male. For him, it is CASTRATING. Hence the vehement replies.

[and what initially struck me as wrong about ahmed madani was not his broken english but the bigotry that was apparent in what he wrote about himself in his profile...there is a fairly long chat-pick-up-line-ish description including his skin color height etc. followed by a tirade against his wife and how tied down he feels and how he is suffering her for the sake of the children.]

Well, I too read Mr. Madani`s resume, as he calls it. He struck me as the typical head-of-household (I was about to say man but realized I should be gender-neutral) who has daily worries to cope with. He is representative of the ordinary man-in-the-street that you encounter everywhere in the world, trying to create a good life for his family and trying to leave his children a little bit better off than he was when he started out in life. After reading his profile, I gave him 5 stars for his honesty and his integrity.

[now harimau, you can go ahead and criticize me for assuming things about ahmed madani when i simply do not know him - but aren`t you assuming things about everyone in exactly the same way? and aren`t these unfair generalizations? why assume that flawless english implies a control freak? and then again...isn`t your english fairly flawless too?]

Obviously, while my English might have been grammatically flawless, I obviously didn`t convey the meaning I intended to convey. And it is obvious that Hamidm2 would have done a tremendous job of putting the insecure males in their place and that is why I missed his comments.

Peace!

Ref Saminasha #252

Please read my reponse to khatam-shud`s post #250. I really had difficulty writing that interact because I didn`t want to get into a slinging match with Stuka or Naqshbandi or any number of males (by naming them) who were trying to tell women what they should or shouldn`t do. In not naming them, I guess you thought my post came out in support of them. I have too much respect for individual thought for me to support their position.

[Lost in this discussion were the voices of men who were willing to engage in what was being written here without the usual hysterical defensiveness. And it is a profound shame that this is what the the majority of men in my generation have to offer.]

I fully agree. I didn`t want to argue for or against VM because as a man I really have no locus standi. I haven`t spent one day in my life as a woman so I really really don`t know the daily humiliations women go through to survive in a male-dominated society. And I was pointing out to you that you are arguing with people whose misogyny knows no bounds, not even that of the womb.

Peace!

Plats,

re: `` But it is also clear that he has well-thought out arguments that are his own, and he
clearly doesn`t need to augment them with a bibliography.``

Please summarize his ``well thought out arguments``. Address in addition the generalization that Muslim famillies have practiced misogyny towards their women-my family and community has also about three generations of independent women. Please include a defense of how Muslim misogyny is more pernicious than Hindu misogyny.

re: ``... I happen to have some friends who are involved in grassroots level social activity in India (mostly involving empowerment of women in various forms) and I can safely predict that none of them have read any feminist literature...``

And their experience WORKING in these areas would qualify them as credible discourse members. Also, as an experiment, ask them what they have read.

re: ``.. I`d hope this does not invalidate their instinctive understanding of the issues (which may be quite different from yours), and resultant actions...``

Why would you assume there would be such dissonance between their understanding and mine? Had you knowledge of contemporary feminism, you`d be reading essays and studies by feminist who work in these orgs and in the field. In other words, today`s feminists arent isolated in the world of academia-drawing on the methodologies of the social, political and economic sciences, they are researching what is happening in rural communities-any decent bibliography will bear that out. In addition, they are often PART of the communities of which they write- which is often overlooked when stereotyping feminist lit, theory and research.

re: ``...You`ve also raised issues of academic background and how doing research is the
privileged domain of those in academia - in a way, making assumptions about me
(I think, because you were responding to one of my posts) with no information
at all...``

You need to be clearer and more precise here. Find the text and make the case.

Secondly, my comment was not that research is ``privilleged``. My comment is that research is valued more than talking off the top of one`s head. If you`ll notice, Shandana mentioned that the issues of female sexuality were often explored in dance. The reader/discourse community will have the expectation that Shandana has seen, decodified and understood the meaning of the dance performances she is writing about. If she had not seen any dance performances and yet opined, how credible would her statement be?

Her analysis of dance performance is a kind of research, as are other interrogations of culture.


re:``... You`ve gone into sweeping generalizations about the level of male intellect
here and how it takes ``only`` 180 or so interacts for men to get VM. Would you
care to replace ``men`` with ``women`` in that post and re-read it ?...``

No, if you`ll notice, I`ve QUALIFIED my statements with phrases like ``a majority of men on this board``. A qualifier is an automatic amendment to a generalization. I also stand by my position. Its really a shame, and another reason why I encourage women interactors to go on Sawnet, where this nonsense would not be tolerated.

And I agree with you on one thing, Khatam Shud has been wonderful. Lets see how she is three years from now.

Saminasha,

As a relatively new interactor to this forum, I`d have to say that there was more
defensiveness and vitriol from you in this thread than everybody else put
together. I`m genuinely sorry to say this, because I have been reading chowk
articles and interacts for a while, and you do come across as a thoughtful and
sensitive person. On that note, I do appreciate Khatam-shud`s attempts at
moderating the debate to some extent.

From what I`ve read so far, Stuka`s politics and mine are quite different. But
it is also clear that he has well-thought out arguments that are his own, and he
clearly doesn`t need to augment them with a bibliography. I happen to have some
friends who are involved in grassroots level social activity in India (mostly involving empowerment of women in various forms) and I can safely predict that none
of them have read any feminist literature. I`d hope this does not invalidate their
instinctive understanding of the issues (which may be quite different from yours),
and resultant actions.

You`ve also raised issues of academic background and how doing research is the
privileged domain of those in academia - in a way, making assumptions about me
(I think, because you were responding to one of my posts) with no information
at all. You`ve gone into sweeping generalizations about the level of male intellect
here and how it takes ``only`` 180 or so interacts for men to get VM. Would you
care to replace ``men`` with ``women`` in that post and re-read it ?

People like Stuka are not your adversary in this, unless you choose to make him
one.

Stuka,

1. If I want to talk about economics and business without having read anything on these disciplines, I will be limited to only my subjective knowledge.

2. Having subjective knowledge only, I must accept my limitations.

3. Having those limitations, if I write of economics/business and insist that economic theory, nor practice is relevant, I will expect that people who are well read and studied in these fields will disagree.

4. Should I take my limitations to a classroom and insist that I am correct, I will expect the prof to suggest how I might research my ideas.

5. If I consequently research my ideas and am able to honestly admit where my subjective ideas are faulty or limited, I will have gained some objectivity.

6. Moreover, I will be able to support my ideas having canvassed the main ideas of that subject.

7. If I am able to disagree with an economic theory having committed myself to research, careful engagement and explication of my subject, I expect my ideas to be respected by my discourse community.

By the way, I have given several of my students who have ideas or interpretations I dont agree with high marks, if they follow the standard of basic scholarship. To do less would be dishonest and unethical.

While I find some of your other statements problematic, I see little benefit in responding to them.

Finally, I agree that any further interaction would be pointless.