The Vagina Monologues

Dost Mittar,
A quick google of nakta yielded these three different texts.

“…El-Fanoun gives you a full taste of a Palestinian wedding with a nice twist. This album is a modern interpretation of a Palestinian wedding following the story of Miriam who chooses her own lover to marry despite her parents` plans for an arranged marriage. Follow along with the ``tulbah`` - when the groom asks for his bride`s hand, to all the traditional activities emanating from the wedding including the ``henna`` hand decorations and the groom`s bath (hamam) all the way to the wedding scene…”

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“…For sure, women are exploited, overworked and un-derappreciated in Nepal, as perhaps everywhere.**** But in one instance at least, women have the freedom to flaunt their intellect in public and even be risqué while doing so.
Women are not be as subjugated, repressed, exploit-ed and battered as you may have believed, if you get to watch a certain late-night programme on Nepal Tele-vision, and its clone on the private satellite station, Channel Nepal. These are semi-dramatised sing-along jousting sessions, called the dohori geet, where men and women sing playful and often suggestive, unrehearsed lyrics in an attempt to defeat the other side.
These programmes are just organised enough to allow video-graphy, but they re-main spontaneous enough to emulate the sing-alongs of real life that happen across mid-hill Nepal. In the natural settings, bat-ches of women and men are on the prowl, seeking each other’s company during festi-vals and fairs. When they meet, the members sit down facing each other, a crowd gathers around, someone bri-ngs a madal drum and the sarangi string instrument, and the competition begins.
The dohori geet has its origins in the various male-female bonding routines used by the different hills communities, particularly during melas (fairs), where boys and girls are allowed the time and space to get to know each other. The mostly-unmarried women and men address each other directly, making eye contact, and creating impromptu verse that has the crowd on edge. The lead singers require quick-wittedness and superior observational skills. The format of the dohori geet is simple, with a four-line submission sung by the lead female or male singer, after which a chorus common to both sides is repeated. The rhythm is zesty. Drawn by the beat, men and women rise to dance.
****The lyrics tend to involve romance, elopement, marriage, jobs, income, household chores, village activities, mothers-in-law... They can go further afield, and include travel in India and (always) riding trains, going off on a jeep (invariably “raising dust”), references to gifts of silk handkerchiefs, ribbons and the wearing of watches and dark glasses. The goal of the protagonists is to try and playfully embarrass each other. ****The lead female singer is given ‘equal time’, and her intellect is allowed to range free. Further, she can dare be as suggestive, explicit or as subtle as she chooses in the use of humour, sarcasm, irony or even sexual reference.****

****The genre, therefore, could be seen as indicator of the relative emancipation of Nepal’s hill women – their ability to interact in public with the men, to dance, to joke and laugh about intimate subjects. And the fact that the two television channels of Nepal see fit to present this genre of song-and-dance too says something positive. Look at it this way – these programmes are probably among the few (if not the only) that show men and women in close physical and mental proximity in an unrehearsed rural/folk situations. Certainly, you would not find anything like this in Bangladesh or Paki-stan Television. Door-darshan may on occa-sion show folk dances where the sexes min-gle, but none of the unrehearsed interact-ion that is the soul of the dohori geet repertoire.

****These are times when cultures across South Asia are being drowned under generic brushstrokes, pummeled by television and the market. A superficial oneness threatens to subsume all that is rare and precious in the nooks and crannies of our society. The dohori geet is one such institution. Nepal’s television seems to have discovered it just before it disappears from the scene altogether and it is swallowed by urban middle class morality. The moment we lose our little cultural eddies is when South Asia (and Nepal) stops being South Asia (and Nepal). For this reason alone, as well as for the relative freedom that it represents for womankind, let us hope that the dohori geet tradition continues, using the help of television if necessary.
The dohori geet projects the men and women as equals – although I admit the camera tends to linger on the women more than on the men. Do I have a problem with that?…”

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Indian women want more from their men
By Delhi Correspondent Daniel Lak

Attitudes towards sex in contemporary India are changing.
There are signs in the growth of agony aunt columns and frank public discussion, especially among women, of love, sex, even orgasm.
A lot of Indian women are complaining that their sex lives just are not good enough.


A rising divorce rate shows that for many married life is not as happy as the courtship and marriage.
One 32-year old woman, M, has been married for seven years, but says she has never had an orgasm.
She and her husband have a son, but she says she has never been able to enjoy sex, that making love was painful, and that she tried to find ways of avoiding it.

School yard

In India, young girls tend to learn about sex in the school yard, rather than the class room. There is no sex education at all.
For generations, many young women have not been told that sex is to be enjoyed, an expression of love.
A lot of people in the urban middle classes get their notions about sex from racy films like Kama Sutra, its uncensored version is widely available on videotape.
Magazines like the local version of Cosmopolitan tell women how to attain the ultimate orgasm. But psychiatrist Achal Bhagat says such advice sits uneasily with middle class prudishness and only produces confusion.


Journalist Pinky Varani, a Bombay social commentator, says that today`s Indian woman has too much on her plate, much like her counterpart in the west, and that a happy sex life has to take its place in the queue.
And then there are the men. Dr Prakash Kothari says Indian men are having a hard time coping with newly empowered women who are aware of their needs in the bedroom.
He says men have not been used to bothering about their partner`s satisfaction and that they need to learn that ``sex lies between the two ears and not the two legs``.


Achal Bhagat says some women explore striptease, or have extra-marital affairs.
But while such activities may not be for all the changing attitudes towards sex in India are visible in films and newly suggestive song lyrics, magazine racks, and the way that women, increasingly, are speaking up and telling the world about their problems.
Now it remains to be seen if men shed the image of their fathers and the film heroes of yesteryear and learn to cope with the new Indian woman, in bed, in the office and in the street.

Saminasha:
.....further point.

I have noticed that on this board women have almost completely supported VMs. I do not underestimate the significance of this fact. Normally, it should mean that we men should mind out own business and shut up. Except that, in the South Asian context, the male domination is so complete in most societal strata, that no change is possible without a change in the male attitude. If I were to give a similar example, it would be that of the caste system in India. There could not be reservation and special quotas for the lower castes unless the enlightened segments of the dominant upper castes recognized the evil perpetrated by the caste system and worked for the uplift of the downtrodden. If you notice the leadership of even the communist party in the fifties in India was full of brahmin names like Namboodripaad, Dange, Joshi, Mukherjee, etc.

Saminasha:
Sorry, I didn`t get back to you earlier.
I overlooked your earlier question regarding the role played by plays in men`s liberation. Chalrles Dickens comes to mind, but let me refer you to a more contemporary phenomenon, the TV serial `All in The Family`. The serial played a significant role in changing American attitudes towards race and gender issues through the use of humour and gentle shock. The serial worked because it came after the civil rights movement of the `60s, which had prepared the way for characters like Archie Bunker`s daughter and son-in-law. Our sympathies were always with the long-suffering Edith because of the ignorant stupdities of Archie. We laughed at him while at the same time recognizing the Archie within us. But I am almost certain that All in the Family would not have worked if it had been produced in the `50s. Similarly, VMs cannot have the same impact in India or Pakistan, as in contemporary North America, except in the small category of people sometimes called RNIs (Resident Non Indians).

I do not know about the `nakta` songs but do have an old album of some fairly raunchy folk songs, sung by Gulabi Devi. However, these are merely vulgarities aimed at having some fun and amusement but do not carry any significant message.

Now, it is not my position that art has to have a message. Far from it! But when an art form such as VMs is presented as a catalyst of change, it is fair to ask if it is likely to achieve its purpose.

In case, I have not made it clear so far, let me do so. I care deeply about the women`s issues in South Asia. In my opinion, VMs scandalise and triviliase these issues and take away the focus away from what needs to be done.

Stuka,

Actually. no. You consistantly force yourself and your conservative viewpoints on issues you have very little authority on-like feminism. I dont see anyone else doing that, and I find it extraordinary that you think that your viewpoint is more valid than all the female interactors here. Why is that? Why cant you accept what the women are saying on this board? Dont you think there is something really male chauvinistic about telling women that their opinions about a performance about self are problematic? Dont you think attitudes like yours are precisely the problem? And, if you are completely unrepetant about it, why have you settled yourself on this board to argue with women who, judging by the interacts, support the VM in varying aspects.

re: nakta

If you`ll look at my posts to Dost Mittar, you`ll notice that I referred to female critiques in local songs. I know of songs sung at mehndis and the subject matter of them. My own experience researching minority narratives in literature have taught me (have you read the Canterbury Tales lately-lots of alternative genres, fables, allegories, tales) that they exist in every society. One does not have to be an expert in contemporary urban Indian culture to figure this out.

If there are Pakistani interactors who know of nakta that might fit into some of the discussion here, please post.

re:``...Now, with regards to nakta, first of all it is limited to a few Hindu communities. It is certainly not a Pan Hindu phenomenon, and NO Muslim community has anything like this...``

Again, my point of local narratives. And dont be so sure what you havent seen, heard or read doesnt exist.

In addition, can you speak for all Muslim communities? Extraordinary. I know while current dominant Quranic interpretation prohibits homosexuality, it exists. Can I pretend it doesnt? That would be silly, wouldnt it?

In an essay about a Muslim community in Egypt, a Muslim woman who is a PH.D recalls that her community of women-mothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, friends and neighbors would discuss the Quran and its aspects - and come up with alternative understandings and interpretations and meanings. The author points out that these oral discourses existed for women who had no access to or acceptance in places of institutionalized Islamic scholarship. Now, do we then argue that these critiques and interpretations dont exist? NO.

re:``...Secondly, I am quite familiar with the lyrics. They are explicit. That is about their only connection with VM. The songs are about relationships, some illicit and some not...``

Do these songs present a female point of view? Do they analyse gender dynamics? Do they speak of the female body? Are the songs performed? Are they performed for a community or audience? It would seem that nakta adhere to the performative criteria that the VM does.

re: ``... Now it is Roohi`s opinion that they may be considered as a version of VM and yes she is welcome to have that opinion...``

Now this is really heartening. Roohi is allowed to have her own opinion...

re:`` But it is a measure of your desperation to clutch at any straw in the wind when you try to utilize that opinion to justify your entire argument about the validity of VM in a South Asian milieu.``

NO STUKA. THAT IS NOT MY ARGUMENT. READ CAREFULLY.

My arguments is that women have written and performed critiques of gender dynamics and the female relationship to their bodies from time immemorial. If we were to research the written texts, oral histories, songs, art, legal texts, medicinal practices, religious debates, clothing, political participation of women in ANY time in South Asian history, we would find female critiques of dominant male culture. They have always existed.

re:``... If the connection you seek is so tenuous, then any girl yelling ``bhen..d`` on a Delhi street could also be performing a ``South Asian version of VM`` though I doubt that would serve the cause of reducing gender inequality...``

Arre, who has said this? Please find ONE POST on this board that says that the VM will directly reduce gender inquity?

Also, as I had pointed out to Dost Mittar, do you know of any single work of art that has changed South Asian society? So why set up a ridiculous straw man argument?

And if you`ll also notice, there are Pakistanis who live in Pakistan who are not sure what a kitty party is. Acknowledge it.

Stuka,

Kindly read my posts to Dost Mittar. I believe our discussion is over.

Man... frankly speaking... this is not good.

Samina

``Why is it that you loudmouths suddenly quieted down when a few interactors pointed out that South Asian VMs exist in marriage songs? ``

South Asian Blah blah...

This is what one INTERACTOR said..


``On my first trip as a new bahu to my in-laws ancestral village in rural UP the women sang something called nakta songs (at a married women only group) which I think you can classify as a form of rural VM – I didn’t get most of it (thank goodness !!) - but they definitely exist``


First of all, you were not aware of these first hand. My statement that you are to a large extent ignorant about ``South Asian`` present day culture stands. This is true more so in an urban context.

Now, with regards to nakta, first of all it is limited to a few Hindu communities. It is certainly not a Pan Hindu phenomenon, and NO Muslim community has anything like this.

Secondly, I am quite familiar with the lyrics. They are explicit. That is about their only connection with VM. The songs are about relationships, some illicit and some not. Now it is Roohi`s opinion that they may be considered as a version of VM and yes she is welcome to have that opinion. But it is a measure of your desperation to clutch at any straw in the wind when you try to utilize that opinion to justify your entire argument about the validity of VM in a South Asian milieu. If the connection you seek is so tenuous, then any girl yelling ``bhen..d`` on a Delhi street could also be performing a ``South Asian version of VM`` though I doubt that would serve the cause of reducing gender inequality.

Chowk Staff:

Thanks for celebrating women`s week in the month of July. It`s better than never. I do not think that you guys gave that much importance to ``sinfae` nazuk`` in the month of March. It`s so sweet to find everyone contemplating on one simple miracle of nature: Women :)

Thanks again for initiating the effort around Chowk`s Women Awareness Week.

Stuka,

I ``think`` I know about distortions? Why is it that you loudmouths suddenly quieted down when a few interactors pointed out that South Asian VMs exist in marriage songs? What happened to the insistance that female critiques were a ``phorren Western feminazi pop cultural desi aunty thing for kitty parties``?

Really. Know when to put up already.

On Shivalinga and yoni worship - why do people here not get that it is the creative principle that is symbolised in the yoni-ling that is worshipped - the same that is in the Chinese yin-yang, the balance of male and female energies. In India there is always deep metaphysics behind simple symbolism ... take it at the level of your own spiritual maturity.

Fertility rites all over the world have evoked the similar imagery ... look at obelisks of Europe like in Stonehenge and Amesbury, and continued to this day in May-Pole dances. The most graphic contemporary display is of course the Shinto Kanamara festival of Japan (which you all have heard of ... ? ) ... it absolutely makes the Indians look like a bashful prudes!!

Apart from the Yoni, the sanctum-sanctorum of every single Hindu Temple is known as the Garbha-griha or womb and the Lotus Flower symbolizes the cosmic womb throughout Asia ... like in Delhi`s own Bahai Temple.

As for Kitty Parties - haven`t you guys at least seen the Zee TV Serial written by the matchless Shobha Dee ??

re: 22
``What next? The Penis Monologues?!``

that would be an appropriate title for your interacts.

khatam-shud # 117

Thanks. It is the Sufi school of thought that has spread and kept Islam going for the past centuries. It is the most tolerant and egalitarian version with spirtuality as its theme and not rituals.

If it was Wahabi or the Talibanic version of Islam, Islam would have been extinct by now.

Saudi`s discovered oil in 1950.

Ref sameerJB #124

Where exactly in the USA do you live and how long have you lived in the US?

[Although, technically, the capital is in Virginia but all the action takes place on Pennsylvania Avenue.]

The capital city of Washington is in the Federal territory of District of Columbia , not in Virginia. In fact, an area shaped like a square with the Potomac river (which is the boundary between Maryland and Virgnia) as the diagonal was initially given to the Federal government by Maryland and Virginia for the Federal capital. Most of the area south of the Potomac river (except for the land on which the National Airport is situated) was returned to Virginia; so Washington, DC, is primarily out of land donated by Maryland.

[Penn State has been more often nationally ranked football team than University of Virginia although Lorena Bobbit from Show-Me state tried to decapitate Penn State offense once.]

Missouri is the Show-Me State.

#114 by Maharana on July 29, 2003 11:30am PT

Streching the facts a wee bit is a standard device in marketing. It is easier to pass of a lie if it based on the facts or streches the facts a bit.

In this case I was not suggesting that hindus ``need to evolve from worship of of Pennis and shiva``

Why will I be giving the hindus such a suggestion? In this matter if any suggestion is to be given by me it will be to examine Islam and accept it if they find right. Who am I to dictate what the Hindus should do with their religion? Unlike some of you who like to take the role of editors of Islam.

In that post I was pointing out the possibility that in future hindus may not be worshiping the Pennis of shiva. The possibiltiy is a hypothesis given that many other aspects of religion were changed or abandoned it is possible(not necessarily compuslary) that Hindus may not be comfortable with it and abondan its worship.

..............

That apart it brings to fore the apparent lack of knowledge of the western feminists. Notice there are people who are quite comfortable with sexual organs.. In fact people go about with names like Mahalingam etc. Well now that I think about it the criticizm seems fair. we dont have ladies named maha yoni do we?? Perhaps this is the discrimiation that the writer of the article is talking about!!!!

Khatam Shud

Damn, can`t you choose a shorter nick?

``For all the men who think we silly women are making mountains out of molehills, do you realize that youre just validating everything you refute, exactly because you refute it? ``

That`s a pretty self serving argument. You mean we can either agree with what you say thereby validating your point to a further degree or we can refute it thereby validating it in the first place? That hardly leaves room for an alternative perspective.


``you insinuated that i was a butter and oil loving desi...lighten up``

LOL!! I honestly did not. First of all you are not Indian, leave alone a Delhite and my remarks were aimed at a specific subset of Delhi subculture. No wonder Roohi got it right away.

Khadhija Hassan... lets take your argument further lets further take the issue of comfort. We should not only be comfortable in just our genital organs but also the use of genital organs.
So can we see some of our feminists friends in a street doing a street play perhaps with binoclars handed out to the bystanders so that they can get a closer look.

then we can go about getting comfortable with our other uses of genital organs we can perhaps organise a mass sh?t out on July 4th next year infront of the Capitol to proudly declare our freedom and comfort level withour bodies???