A Failed Education

#42 by Romair

You have hit the nail on the head. We need to replicate the success stories of LUMS, GIK, AKMC, KEMC, IBA, NUST, etc on a grand scale. We need dozens more institutes.

Here is a suggestion: Let`s work with the U.S. government to get educational loans and upgrade existing universities like Jamshoro, NED, UET, Peshawer University, Bolan University, and dozens other across Pakistan.

Simultaneously, bring the madrassahs into the mainstream.

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academically the stuff here was easier than what I faced in Pakistan.
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Right. I also felt the same way. Pakistani students really study a lot in high school and college. In contrast, the average American student ends up partying and binge-drinking during most of his college years. And of course in high school, the workload is just half of what we had to go through in Pakistan.

So after all that noise it turns out that these clowns can bareful cite a dozen pakistanis at major universities. Hah, hah ! What a joke ! It is like a bunch of semi-literate people discussing some fine grammatical nuance.

I guess as long as you have attitudes like (this gem is from HisGreatFlatulence)

[quote]
Christian, Jewish and Hindu civilizations may have a reason for forgeting their past (After all, they were backward for most of history while Muslims were enlightened)
[end-quote]

There is little hope for you. As Tom Friedman has put it - the assumption of superiority above others is so strong amongst parts of islam, that the clash with reality leads to taking refuge in fantasy.

#33 by arjun_m

Like millions of educated Hindu fans of Hedgewar, Thackeray, Praveen Togadia and Narendra Modi, there are also educated Muslim fans of Osama Bin Laden. There is absolutely no difference between these two fanaticisms. Since you are not prepared to condemn the former, you sound hollow and self-serving when you criticize the latter.

FYI, the hardcore Al-Qaeda elements are not illiterate. They are in fact highly educated professionals, engineers, doctors and businessmen. Osama Bin Laden, Ayman Al-Zawahiri, Abu Zubeida, Khalid Sheikh Muhammad, Muhammad Ata, and the other 19 hijackers were not exactly Madrassah-educated zealots.

#39 by harris_ansari

I agree with your post. However, let me add that Muslim civilizations need not be embarrassed by their past either.

We have the examples of Ibn Sina, Ibn Khaldun, Farabi, Jabir Ibn Hayyan, Ibn Rushd, Rumi, Al Beiruni, Al-Razi and Al-Bajra who are counted among the forefathers of philosophy, mathematics and science.

Christian, Jewish and Hindu civilizations may have a reason for forgeting their past (After all, they were backward for most of history while Muslims were enlightened). Muslims don`t. We should take strength from the past, but live in the present.

The education system in Pakistan needs improvement at a grand scale, but I don’t think primarily in the areas, which many people are hitting upon. I think Pakistan’s educational system needs improvement in the following areas:

- A much larger budget
- A much larger number of schools and colleges
- Graduate many more individuals with doctorates to become professors etc.

- The Pakistani syllabus isn’t ideal, but considering the limitations in resources, I actually don’t think it is that bad. There just need to be more and much better equipped universities teaching it. All of us are products of that system. Every Pakistani graduate of an Engineering university, I met in North America, seems to have breezed through his/her MS degree here. In most cases, their GPAs are higher than those of their Americans colleagues. A lot of this can be explained by their hard work, but they must have learnt something in their undergrad degrees in Pakistan from resource-challenged institutions like NED, UET etc. And hardly anyone of them are Talibanized. A few maybe borderline Abduls, but none are Talibanized. The only reason I didn’t do too well in my graduate studies here was the social distractions that were present in US universities. Otherwise, academically the stuff here was easier than what I faced in Pakistan.

- The, “rote” concept is actually under-rated. It actually helps a lot, in many cases, if you ask me. I have seen far too many American students flunk college classes I taught, because they were too busy carrying out, “independent thinking.” While my Indian and Pakistani students whizzed through through those classes. Granted, rote shouldn’t be the primary form of learning. But it didn’t seem to have effected the Pakistani students, even when they got into US universities, where they had to carry out independent thinking.

- I bunked and slept through a lot of the Pak Studies and Islamiyyat classes in Pakistan. But from what I remember, hardly any student gave them any importance. These classes had the tiniest books, by far the lowest paid teachers. The only time anyone opened the books for these classes was before the exams. For every five days, Pre-engineering students spend on anatomy, they probably spend one hour on Pak Studies and Islamiyyat. And I haven’t met a single high school student in Pakistan, who wanted to major in these two subjects. They are considered easy subjects, that one can use to build up a high GPA.. The only students majoring in these subjects are in the madrassahs. And they would also want to attend a convent and major in Math, if our rich elite built one for them.

- So I find it odd when people point out Pak Studies and Islamiyyat as having a, “great effect” on the Pakistani student’s thought process. And a cause for the downfall of Pakistan. Very few Pakistani students (other than Manto) can barely tell you Jinnah’s birthdate and where he went to college – much less anything detailed like what kind of toilet paper he used. What to talk of being brainwashed on Pakistan’s ideology, they don’t even know when the ideology formed. Just go take a look at how many students flunk in their B.A. Pak Studies classes. And I bet no one, other than Naqshbandi, can recite the second kalima, even after taking Islamiyyat. How in the world could they have been Talibanised and developed anti-India feelings by classes that most of them slept through. If we were to take away Islamiyyat and Pak Studies, it would reduce every students grades, not to mention, they would lose their opportunity to skip class to go smoke a cigarratte. This, and not the classes, would cause a bigger problem.

- Pakistanis hate India, not because of any educational system. Pakistanis hate Indians because Indians hate Pakistanis, and because of the wars, and the media, and Kashmir and just because everyone has to hate someone. And because most Pakistanis, haven’t met any Indians. Pakistanis line up to get the latest video copy of Gadar and Mission Kashmir and any other anti-Pakistani movie coming out from India. They will watch those the whole day, listen to the songs, and still not like India. It has nothing to do with Islamiyyat and Pak Studies. If education had something to do with, then only literate Pakistanis would dislike India. However, illiterate Pakistanis dislike India, just the same.

The only way to reduce this dislike is by the two people meeting each other, get to know about each other, and by resolving the outstanding issues. And by Indians stop disliking Pakistan. Changing the syllabus isn’t going to do much. Pakistanis would hate India equally, even if you started teaching syllabus from Indian schools in Pakistan Studies. Since most of them would skip those classes also.

So, as long as Pakistanis shine in US universities (which they do) and as long as they top O and A levels in the world (which, surprisingly and apparently they do) and as long as they have the decency to get along with Indians when they meet (which they do in North America) and as long as they know more about India than Indians know about Pakistan (which they definitely do), and as long as they continue to buy Indian VCR tapes that are anti-Pakistan (which they always do) and as long as they are equally or more interested in Technology than in Pak Studies and Islamiyyat (which all of them are, including the madrassah students, if they are given a decent school to attend), then I think people talking about a Talibanised syllabus etc., producing illiterate Pakistanis, are overstating their argument greatly, just to suit their cause.

The real problem is that there just isn’t enough money available, and that more schools with better facilities need to be created.

Alephnull

Yes... who can forget Eqbal Ahmed

Also... Tariq Ali is part of visiting faculty in some places right?

Just a comment. Great article. This problem resonates in all Muslim countries. We need a serious solution all over. It`s time to be realistic and truthful about the history. Great nations learn from their mistakes, and move on. Weak nations look in past.

``The past has vanished, Everything that was uttered belongs there. Now is the time to speak of new things. -Jelaluddin Rumi(1207-1273)``

#32 by arjun_m

LUMS undergrad program is only 7 years old. The IITs were founded decades ago. The gap between Pakistani educational sector and Indian sectors is diminishing every year. Already the number of Pakistani engineers in U.S. economy has shot up in the last 5-7 years. Indian engineers have a demographic advantage over Pakistan, not a qualitative one.

The rankings that you are quoting take into account the reputation of institutions as well. Newer institutions are usually not considered even if they are better or equivalent to older ones in quality and facilities. In general, it takes about 15-20 years for newer institutes to get recognized by U.S. News and other ranking agencies. You will rarely find any institute in the top 10 list that was founded less than 10 years ago (regardless of its quality and facilities).

Since LUMS, GIK and NUST were inaugurated just 7-10 years ago, it would be natural to expect the U.S. News to hold back on its rankings yet. It is just a matter of time before Pakistani institutes attract the critical mass and reputation needed to enter the top 10.

#8 by pmishra2

Most people drink from the fountain of knowledge, but it seems you gargled. Next time you feel like making a statement, please use some references and/or statistics. Your posts are like yawns. They make a loud sound, tell us that you are awake and then fade away since they contain no intelligible ideas or facts.

Here is a suggestion: Please don`t yawn with your mouth open.

#7 by Romair

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GIK has had problems with faculty leaving. I checked their salaries in an Asian economics magazines, and they were actually higher than those of IIT professors.
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I don`t know GIK well enough to diagnose whether this is a political or administrative problem. It could well be that the professors left for private sector jobs that pay higher than academics institutes. A certain % of turnover is therefore expected. Can you elaborate on the GIK problem if you know the details?

#4 by sarwar

Tampering with education and history for political ends, is not an exclusively Pakistani practice. Indians also do the same. 90% of Indian students don`t know that even in 1937 elections, Gandhi and Congress had been rejected by Sikhs, Muslims, Christians and Scheduled Castes. Hatred for Pakistanis is as predominant in India, as it is in Pakistan.

Attitudes toward India cannot be used as a yardstick for educational success in Pakistan. The goal of educational policy is to increase male/female literacy and improve the quality of education (especially technical and professional) in Pakistan. To do this, we must attract more private investment in educational sector. With more money to play with, we can attract better faculty.

This is already happening in Pakistan. There are more Business-institutes in Lahore today than paan shops. With the passage of time, these small institutes will grow larger, get international recognition and attract better faculty.

Let market demand determine how many institutes and what quality of graduates we need.

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Mantolives #32

You could also add the late Eqbal Ahmed - certainly quite well-known.

Professor Anwar Bhatti`s wife Shabnam Bhatti is also a professor...