A Failed Education

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Hmmm, u asking for the solution who are been taught by the process you have explained,
they don`t even care, as they never got to learn that, what difference does it make, they do make fun of it, every other student make of that book of pakistan studies, in which they ask the pupil to learn 14 ponts of quad-e-azam but none of the teachers care to actually make them understand whats the idea, and why the great quaid actually gave those points, does any one of you know .. me neither.. i even dont remember the 14 points even after learning for 5 years (from class 8-12). I was never able to recite them in one go, because I cant ratofy anything.

Only one solution this, each school should be standardize with the education.everyone should take same education. and govt. school should be given to they mohallah they are in. they run them with a given standard (changing that standard shuould be easy) there can be a consortium to solve the issues (plz no anghota chaaps in ministry of education) I wud suggest government tht before spending money on IT(which is again a bullshit by some selfish ppl who played with govt. to make money ) and spent of incrasing the level of education of universities, some should first be spent on the school systems, and standardizing the schooling system, I dont see a reason for a person not teaching in a school if he will be given good renumeration package as govt is paying for universitites (that is necessary too but we need a base first) evrything stands on base, if the base is weak one can never have good fruit.
I hope I am clear.
hope to be listened

YOU HAVE HIT THE HEAD ON THE NAIL!

Bravo Sarwar Saheb!!! #4 ,5 and 182,183:--Good posts.

I wish some had your power of discernment.

Rule of Law versus Rule of Man and Cults.

This is the main issue. Democracy versus Dictatorship.
Army versus Civilian Rule.
Secularism versus Islamism/Hinduism.
Peaceful Co-existence versus Thousand years of war till qayamat.

How can we stop this madness!!!!! Can we bring things back to decency and civility????
Is there any hope for Pakistan???

Romair #163

{{1. What if regardless of how much proof is provided, Indians are completely brainwashed to an extent that they are unwilling to accept the proof? What can one do then?}}

(a) My point seems to have eluded you. An argument (including purported ‘proof’) stands or falls on its own merits. The ultimate determination of whether it is valid depends only on its objective content. It does not depend on who makes it (and her perceived past track-record of making honest and convincing arguments), or who is made to listen to it (and his perceived past record of following and accepting sound arguments).

Claiming that your audience is brainwashed misses the point and sounds like a weak excuse. Those who are not brainwashed would be able to scrutinize your claims and decide to what extent they are well-founded. They may be able to provide corroborating evidence. They may even be able to make a solider case to convince the alleged ‘brainwashed’ ones. Conversely, they may be able to show you just exactly where your ‘proof’ goes astray, where your account departs from reality.

(b) If you believe that your audience is brainwashed to reject your arguments, you can try to establish that this is the case. Brainwashing, indoctrination is not a particularly mysterious process. Consciously or unconsciously, overtly or subtly, in greater or lesser degree, it may be carried out by every nation and social group, beginning in early infancy. It is the foundation of various cults and most dogmatic religions. More intense brainwashing of adults in order to induce esprit de corps and unit cohesion is a key ingredient of much armed forces training as well as re-education camps. At the level of entire populations, there is the method of mass terror and ceaseless blaring agitprop to induce worship of the Race and the Supreme Leader.

You are welcome to substantiate the case that Indians at large are unreceptive to your arguments because they have been subjected to some form of brainwashing, by documenting the nature, intensity, and duration of the alleged brainwashing. Merely repeating your dubious bald assertions won’t do. Something on the lines of the SDPI report, complete with copious references (see my #140) would be welcome. You could even turn it into yet another Chowk article. I’m sure that it will be well-received if you provide solid evidence.

(c) You might also want to consider the possibility that, as a military veteran, you yourself have undergone severe brainwashing; and consequently your disconnect from reality is greater than that of your audience. As far as I am concerned, that gives a far simpler explanation – in the Ockham’s Razor sense - for the observed fact that your ‘proofs’ carry such little weight with the Indians.

((2. Isn`t it better to not make false statements to begin with?}}

Of course. May I suggest that truthfulness, like charity, ought to begin at home?

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re: post 149-great post HE!
sadly most ppl on here are islam haters and pakistan haters who will only be happy when pakistani society is basically totally mentally westernised.

Allah says in the koran:

``They [the Jews and Christians] will never be pleased with you until you become like them``

good article pasted arjun. i agree with it totally--what is needed is a revamp of the system from the primary UP and to produce our own education system suited to our own society with its own traditions.
For science education we could do worse than consult Richard Feynman`s theories on education.
For the overall system i would advise the govt. of pakistan to contact Shaykh Hamza Yusuf--an American convert and one-time advisor to the Bush govt. on islam--and use him as a consultant on how to reform our education system. Therein lies success and a system for creating unique individuals! :-)

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quote

`` I think modern school is a negative experience. I believe you can learn more out of school than in it. There is now a universal education system, whether you are in an Arab country, China or somewhere else. This universal education is only going to vary according to the political atmosphere of the given country. For example, in Iraq, the indoctrination is probably more obvious whereas in the US it is just more subtle. School is an artificial construct to socialize individuals into a group identity. The whole idea of a ``school of fish`` is that everyone swims together whereas traditional Islamic education was completely individualized. What it did
was give people all those tools (in the West called ``liberal arts``) such as grammar, rhetoric, and logic, through which people could actually think and use their brains.

In public high schools, you are not given tools, you are given information and data. In fact, a metaphor that is used in education today is that you`re basically a hard drive that needs to be written with a given software. You will then fulfill whatever are the social needs of the society. Schooling today is designed only to matriculate people into the logic of the system itself. Then people end up in meaningless jobs doing meaningless work, and never really think about what type of society they`re contributing to.
--Shaykh Hamza Yusuf

arjun-m#175
``India’s annual average per capita income is $470 but the National Council of Applied Economic Research ``estimates that the number of people living in households that earn at least $1,800 annually - considered the minimum for middle-income families - has increased 17% in just the past three years, to more than 700 million.`` At $1,800 per annum, Indian families can ``purchase motorbikes, televisions and refrigerators.``

Things dont add up. If 700 million people are making even $1800 each (not at least 1800) India`s per capita income will be more than $470 even if the rest of the population was earning zero dollars. Unless, the NCAER estimates realte to family income or purchasing power parity.

But I agree that India is on the march, and will continue onwards if the chaddiwallahs can be kept in check.

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rsridhar #162 I am all for constructive criticism. And certainly, chowk is enriched by the presence of Indian posters who can provide mature reasoned criticism, on how things look like from the Indian perspective. I consider Dost Mittar (an Indian poster) to be an excellent example of such a poster. Other examples are Stuka who, while appreciative of Pakistani culture and people, nevertheless does I think a very good job of presenting the Indian viewpoint on issues like Kashmir. Shankar is another example, even though he tends to go wild a bit. But what he says is I think worth understanding and internalizing for any Pakistani who feels chauvinistic. I have no problem with such criticism.

What I object to is put downs for the sake of denigrating pakistanis. I objected for example to your characterization of your fellow resident doctors as being ``less competent``. This is clearly a put down, and can hardly be considered constructive criticism. From all indications, and on a per capita basis, the Pakistani immigrant population has in fact generally done as well as the Indian or any other immigrant population in the US or elsewhere. So, by all means criticize things about pakistan (e.g. pakistan government policies, or culture, or chauvinistic posts written by an individual poster), but please keep it constructive. Your words will carry more weight in that case. You may even change a few minds of pakistanis reading your posts.

And people like arjun and jay are in a different class all by themselves - they actually are thrilled with any misfortune befalling pakistanis. I wonder what kind of education they received in India.

Alephnull #159 I think my post to rsridhar largely responds to your post as well.

All that needs to be added to respond to your post is this: if I had a penny for every time some indian poster mentioned how little pakistan is discussed in india, i would be a millionaire. The undeniable fact is that you (for example) are one of the several indian posters who seem incapable of discussing anything on chowk other than pakistan. Your actions belie your words.

HisExcellency #168 The french used to call Louis XIV ``Your Majesty``, and then proceeded to overthrow him. I am not suggesting by any means that this is the fate your future wife has in store for you though.

Congratulations to you (and YLH too) on your respective forthcoming weddings. Take it from a much older man: there is such a thing as marital bliss. You need to work on it though. I say this based on 2 decades of married life.

pmishra2 #164 oh my! having been exposed for what you are, you first resorted to trying to change the topic. Didnt work. Now you are lashing out at me in anger and frustration.

When you have cooled down, I suggest you reflect on the matter. You will realize you yourself demonstrated your poor Indian education. I merely drew attention to the obsession with trying to berate pakistan and pakistanis that is reflected in virtually every single one of your posts. Had you ever written anything (e.g. on some other subject), you would have been able to direct my attention to it. So, consider this ``Chowk education`` by a pakistani to be a form of adult remedial education. The education you never received in the home you grew up in, nor in the schools you went to in India.

You may end this discussion now, or continue your stupid responses. I wont be responding to your posts.

#166 by Mantolives

++
But people like P-mishra, friend, and others go beyond that... they get down to lying about Pakistan... and when their lies are exposed, they lie some more
++

I think they are just lazy. Instead of polishing their arguments, they resort to stereotypes, sweeping statements and name-calling. I mean even high school kids don`t do that nowadays, because the moment you do that... people think that you must be on a sticky wicket. At the risk of sounding condescending, I would advise these interActors to copy the styles of rsridhar and stuka especially. Debating with them is indeed a pleasure.

#167 by Mantolives

Congrats YLH. I suggest we form our own Ya-Ya Brotherhood! Rule#1 of the brotherhood: Thou shalt return to chowk every 100 days to stay in touch with the other folks (and occasionally pull a leg or two). I also invite other married or soon-to-be married chowkies (both Indian and Paksitani) to this secret society.

Congratulations His Excellency...


Seems like you and I both are going into that world of domesticated husbandry (pun) :) in december.

Alephnull,

Agreed... exposing flaws in the Pakistani educational system is a good idea. If you read my posts, you will find me the harshest critic of Pakistani education.

But people like P-mishra, friend, and others go beyond that... they get down to lying about Pakistan... and when their lies are exposed, they lie some more.

-YLH

#158 by tahmed32

++
You have to admit that explanation is a bit of a stretch. In any case, wait till you get married to this girl and she catches you spending all this time on chowk. You will be called other things
++

To be honest, she called me ``HisExcellency`` only twice.. it sounded so utterly royal that I assumed this title in cyberworld ever since. To add some humor, I asked some of my pals to form a ``Royal Court`` in cyberspace. Both these dudes also took royal titles. My friend ``Duke of Daleria`` got married last year. The ``Prince of Wuchwuchanga`` is still fishing for a bride on desi chat channels. (He should have chosen a better title for his princedom).
My own brief ``royal`` career at chowk will end in December. After that I will most probably disappear into the ``unroyal`` world of domesticated husbands :))

#157 tahmed32

Are you the chowkidar of Chowk to give us lectures on ``straying from the topic``??? Buzz off, bird brain.

This is an open forum. If you dislike spin-masters like HisFradulence being exposed when he makes delusional claims about the growth of IT (Info Tech, not Intl Terror which is doing just fine) in Pakistan, that is entirely your problem. Go someplace else.

ooops, there are some boys talking rudely in the last row of class, masterji, why don`t you go offer them your precious wisdom? Be careful, they may launch a spitball or two at you...

AlpheNull #159: ``If a statement made about Pakistan by an Indian happens to be false or ill-founded or ignorant or a misrepresentation of reality, it should be simply proved wrong``

Two points here:

1. What if regardless of how much proof is provided, Indians are completely brainwashed to an extent that they are unwilling to accept the proof? What can one do then?

2. Isn`t it better to not make false statements to begin with?

#145 tahmed

{{That is, the obsessive need to denigrate pakistan that is evident in posts from you and others (like the half-brain arjun, and with all due respect the doctor sahib rsridhar) on this board speaks for itself about the quality of education you have received in India. While there are a couple of pakistanis of your kind as well on chowk, by and large you dont find this obsessive need to degrade the India and Indians.}}

My take is that what attention Indians might pay to Pakistan today has little to do with their education in India, which, extrapolating from my own experiences, completely ignores Pakistan. One might even adopt the position that Indians paying attention to Pakistan today are making up for a misspent youth where they learnt nothing about the western neighbour (on the then reasonable assumption that it was and would continue to be of marginal significance in their lives).

This assumption of Pakistan’s relative insignificance has been proven wrong by the events of recent years. The establishment on the other side of the border has for several decades used hatred of India as a pillar of their official propaganda, and for at least a decade has continuously sponsored and supported extensive terrorist activities on Indian soil. It is therefore natural that an increasing number Indians are finally paying attention, if only of a completely negative sort. For instance, the education system of Pakistan – in schools following government-approved curricula - is central to understanding the origins of officially sanctioned Pakistani notions of the true, the good and the beautiful.

Pakistanis who resent having the most unsavoury aspects of their system exposed to pitiless scrutiny by Indians and other foreigners would do well to fix their system rather than complain about its exposure. What matters most about any statement is the degree to which it is an accurate depiction of reality. Who made it – whether Pakistani, Indian, American, male, female, fauji, civilian, religious fanatic, atheist, etc. – is of secondary importance [though it often gives some useful background information in the long run].

If a statement made about Pakistan by an Indian happens to be truthful, factual, it should be absorbed, heeded and acted upon no matter how hurtful it is to Pakistani honour, dignity and pride. If a statement made about Pakistan by an Indian happens to be false or ill-founded or ignorant or a misrepresentation of reality, it should be simply proved wrong and shrugged or laughed off no matter how hurtful it might be. The same should hold with all possible permutations of identity (Pakistani <-> Indian, etc.). Reality should be the only judge that counts. Whining about ‘denigration’, ‘hate-mongering’ and so on in secondary and tertiary media such as Chowk is pointless, futile, and only deflects from real issues.

re:#139 by HisExcellency
Thanks for your post.
I agree that these text books need to be revised. Let children not be exposed to hatred. A similar thing is being attempted in India but BJP will find it a tough going to change text books to suit its political needs. The media is more aware than ever before.
Sridhar

re:#140 by AlephNull
Thanks for your post. I will check out the link. It is good that there is awareness to this in Pak. This is the first step.
Sridhar

re:#145 by tahmed32
tahmed sahib,
If you think pointing out some mistakes or flaws or just the plain truth is wrong, then by all means i have wronged. I have no regrets. I do not do this to get any kicks. I strongly condemn bad things in both India and Pak.
Sridhar

pmishra2 #153 What does your post have to do with the point I made about your pakistan obsession??

This is the second time that I have caught you straying from the subject being discussed (first time you had started pointing to His Excellency`s name rather than face up to your problem). You are slipping back. You cant give up now, man!! In your last post, at least you made an effort to shake out of your obsession with disparaging pakistan when you cut and paste that article about israel. Keep trying and maybe you will start to peep about something other than about how bad pakistan is.

On the other hand, if you truly are incapable of saying anyting intelligent, then at least stick to cutting and pasting things from the internet. For example, just as you cut and paste that article on israel, you could cut and paste articles on things like space flight, the wonderful world of science. Maybe you could get bold and even post something from a porno site. This way people will think you are capable of thinking beyond your obsession with pakistan.

HisExcellency #154 You have to admit that explanation is a bit of a stretch. In any case, wait till you get married to this girl and she catches you spending all this time on chowk. You will be called other things (something about ``wasting time chatting with strangers`` for example), but not Your Excellency or Your Majesty or anything like that. (I talk from personal experience, of course).

tahmed, his excellency,

You fellas are wasting your time...

hate mongers like p-mishra, friend, etc are a dime a dozen.

#152 tahmed32

Clearly you have missed your vocation as a security aide at a school for drop-outs or some kind of prison guard. Why not consider a career change in that direction?

You seem to be under the illusion that Chowk is some kind of personal fiefdom that belongs only to you. It is with regret I have to inform you that, within some constraints, this is a forum for free expression. So get real....

#150 by tahmed32

The story behind my title is long and has something to do with the girl I am engaged to. Actually she gave me this title since I used to tease her with titles like ``Your Majesty``. There is nothing more to it actually.

#152 by tahmed32

++
Congratulations. I shall be your one man support group as you try to break free from whatever they did to your brain when you were going to school in india. pmishra2 ki jai howay!!
++

Make it a two-man support group. I can`t believe my eyes also. For a change, pmishra2 is arguing his point-of-view objectively, instead of resorting to negative stereotypes. Ajit [my favorite Bollywood villain] would probably agree that pmishra2 is a ``smaaart boy``.

pmishra2 #151 Very good. I am glad to see you are making an effort to break your obsession with denigrating pakistan. This must be the first chowk post ever you have written that has nothing to do with pakistan. Admittedly you just cut and paste an article on Israel, but that is a giant first step forward. Congratulations. I shall be your one man support group as you try to break free from whatever they did to your brain when you were going to school in india. pmishra2 ki jai howay!!

From the NYTimes, Aug 14, 1999

In Israel, New Grade School Texts for History Replace Myths With Facts

---

By ETHAN BRONNER

ERUSALEM -- Few ideas are as deeply ingrained in Israeli culture as the one summed up by the Hebrew phrase, ``me`atim mul rabim,`` or ``the few against the many.`` Schoolchildren have long been taught that the Jews have always been surrounded by enemies and that their victory over five Arab states in the 1948 War of Independence was a near miracle of David-and-Goliath proportions.

But the start of this school year marks a quiet revolution in the teaching of Israeli history to most Israeli pupils. New, officially approved textbooks make plain that many of the most common Israeli beliefs are as much myth as fact.

The new books say, for example, that it was the Israelis who had the military edge in the War of Independence. They say that many Palestinians left their land not -- as has traditionally been taught -- because they smugly expected the Arab states to sweep back in victoriously but because they were afraid and, in some cases, expelled by Israeli soldiers.

The books freely use the term ``Palestinian`` to refer to a people and a nationalist movement, unheard of in the previous texts. They refer to the Arabic name for the 1948 war -- the Naqba, or catastrophe -- and they ask the pupils to put themselves in the Arabs` shoes and consider how they would have felt about Zionism.

Finally, the books no longer separate Jewish and Israeli history from events around the world but weave them into a single tapestry.

``Only 10 years ago much of this was taboo,`` reflected Eyal Naveh, a history professor at Tel Aviv University and the author of one of the new ninth-grade textbooks on the 20th century. ``We were not mature enough to look at these controversial problems. Now we can deal with this the way Americans deal with the Indians and black enslavement. We are getting rid of certain myths.``

The ``new history`` approach that Naveh and other new textbook authors are using in their descriptions of the Israeli-Arab conflict is 10 or 15 years old. It has gained a growing following among academic scholars and then with a somewhat larger public after the 1993 Oslo peace accord between Israel and the Palestinians.

But while the publication of such revisionism by scholars is one thing, the inclusion of their perspective in school books is clearly something else. In all states, but especially new ones, school is typically viewed as a place not only to learn but to be imbued with civic and patriotic spirit.

The fact that these new books are currently being assigned and bought without advance publicity about the changes says something about Israel`s sense of its own maturity. But it seems nonetheless likely that when, in the coming months, the books` contents become known, controversy will ensue.




``Why not just translate the Palestinian books for our children and be done with it?`` fumed Aharon Megged, a novelist and outspoken critic of the new history, when he was read a passage from a new textbook. ``This is an act of moral suicide that deprives our children of everything that makes people proud of Israel.``

The passage to which Megged was reacting was from Naveh`s book, on the War of Independence:

``On nearly every front and in nearly every battle, the Jewish side had the advantage over the Arabs in terms of planning, organization, operation of equipment and also in the number of trained fighters who participated in the battle.``

The approach of earlier textbooks is typified by the following from a 1984 Education Ministry book on the years 1939 to 1949: ``The numerical standoff between the two sides in the conflict was horrifyingly unbalanced. The Jewish community numbered 650,000. The Arab states together came to 40 million. The chances of success were doubtful and the Jewish community had to draft every possible fighter for the defense of the community.``

This shift in perspective is common to the work of the new historians who are relying on newly opened state archives and the emotional distance of a young generation.

Instead of portraying the early Zionists as pure, peace-loving pioneers who fell victim to Arab hatred, the new historians focus on the early leaders` machinations to build an iron-walled Jewish state regardless of the consequences for non-Jews living here.

The controversy that this narrative has generated mirrors the wider dispute in Israel between those who favor more concessions to the Arabs and those who fear that such concessions place Israel`s legitimacy and its very existence at risk.

But the arrival of the new textbooks also mirrors the growing acceptance of some new history by Israelis. Last year, when the country marked its 50th birthday, a television series known as Tkuma, or rebirth, offered a more complex and less varnished version of Israeli history than had been typically shown. And a new military history book of Israel by a group of mainstream military historians has just been published that explodes several key myths about Israeli military feats.

Michael Yaron, who is in charge of the history curriculum at the Ministry of Education, says the issue is one of historical accuracy; he calls the changes salutary. He took up his post five years ago, during the liberal administration of Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, and quietly continued his work after Benjamin Netanyahu, a conservative, was elected in 1996, finishing approval of the new books just as Ehud Barak, who is in Rabin`s mold, was elected in the spring.


``We are beginning a new era in history teaching where, for the first time in Israeli textbooks, the picture is not black and white,`` Yaron said. ``That was an important goal of mine when I came, to make sure the Palestinian perspective was included.

``My second goal was to end the practice of separately teaching Jewish and Israeli history on the one hand and world history on the other. It was absurd. We used to spend one year teaching the Holocaust and the next teaching World War II. Now we will teach Jewish history in the larger context of other events. This doesn`t minimize Zionism. It puts it in context.``

Yaron`s department began integrating Jewish and world history for middle school in its sixth grade textbooks several years ago and is finishing this project with the new ninth grade books that have just been printed. Since ninth grade history class is devoted to the 20th century, when Israel was formed, this is the year when controversy may be expected.

Israel has a number of state-approved school systems and the new books will only be used in the mainstream secular system that serves about 60 percent of the population. The religious state system and the strictly-observant systems that operate with state approval and funds will not use the new books, meaning that the divisions between the various sectors may now be aggravated further.

There are three new competing ninth-grade history books for the secular system, one from the ministry`s own publishing division and two produced privately with ministry approval. All three take a much broader, more textured approach to Israeli history than textbooks have in the past. New books for the 10th through 12th grades are due out in the coming year and all take the new approach of integrating Jewish history with world history.

One ninth-grade book is ``Passage to the Past`` by Kezia Tabibyan, which not only mentions the 1948 massacre carried out by radical Zionist forces in the village of Deir Yassin, something Ms. Tabibyan says had never been done in a ninth-grade text before, but also engages in a kind of historiography by asking students to reflect on the use of myths in nation-building.

``If I want to educate the citizens of Israel after 2000 they must know that there is another point of view about things like our War of Independence,`` Ms. Tabibyan said. ``They must deal with Deir Yassin. They must know that there was another people that had their life here.``

The ministry book, edited by Danny Jacoby, is in some ways the most radical of the three. Its discussion of why the Palestinians became refugees includes the sentence, ``There were also localities in which the Jewish fighting forces conducted expulsion actions.`` The book also frankly discusses how Jews from North Africa and the Arab world felt mistreated by European Jews when they came here.

Clearly, part of what is driving the change in history texts is the ongoing Middle East peace effort.

The accords between the Israelis and Palestinians call on each side to fight racism and provocation and instruct their populations in coexistence.

Yet one of the issues that has most troubled Israeli commentators is the fact that the Palestinians are still using old Jordanian and Egyptian texts which never mention Israel and often portray Jews as evil and bloodthirsty.

An Israeli group called ``Palestinian Media Watch`` recently published the findings of its study of Palestinian textbooks. In one textbook on Arab history, the group noted, is the sentence, ``The best examples of racism and discrimination in the world are Nazism and Zionism.`` Another book, for sixth graders, says, ``One must be careful around Jews because they are lying traitors.``

Khalil Mahshi, director of international relations at the Palestinian education ministry, said he is troubled by the anti-Semitism that appears in the books used by Palestinians but noted that new books are being written.

``We are not rewriting our school history books,`` he said. ``We are writing them for the first time. It will take a few more years because we are just forming committees to set up the guidelines.``

Asked if the new books would include Israeli perspectives on the dispute, Mahshi begged for indulgence, saying that while the Palestinians want to be treated as equals, their historical development has not been equal to that of the Jews.

``We are attempting to be as objective as possible,`` he said. ``We should be living a new reality, taking a more mature view, but to do that means overcoming pain. To see the Zionist movement as having an equal right to our land as we do is to embark on a personal journey to history which is more complicated than most people realize.

``It took me a long time and even then I am not there. Israelis are changing because they can afford it. They are now so rich and powerful that they can afford to be magnanimous and say, `OK, there are people here we haven`t treated well.` But when you are still dealing with daily difficulties and view them as the fault of the people next door, can you afford to be so magnanimous?``

pmishra2 #147 ``His Excellency`` is indeed a pompous title. However, that has nothing to do with the point I made. I guess they didnt teach you how to pay attention to what you read either.

While we are discussing the flaws in Pakistani textbooks, we might as well discuss textbooks in other countries as well... just to get an objective perspective.

In September 1999, Maureen Meehan filed a special report for Washintgon-Report on Middle East Affairs. In this article, she exposes the racist and anti-Palestinian bias of Israeli textbooks. She bases her report on a study undertaken by Professor Daniel Bar-Tal of Tel Aviv University. Professor Bar-Tal studied 124 elementary, middle- and high-school textbooks on grammar, Hebrew literature, history, geography and citizenship. After the study he concluded that ``Israeli textbooks present the view that Jews are involved in a justified, even humanitarian, war against an Arab enemy that refuses to accept and acknowledge the existence and rights of Jews in Israel``

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html

This is the kind of material that Israeli students are learning in their elementary, middle and high schools:

1. Arabs are delegitimized by the use of such labels as ``robbers``,``‘bloodthirsty``, and ``killers``



2. Jews are described as industrious, brave and determined to cope with the difficulties of “improving the country in ways they believe the Arabs are incapable of.”



3. Hebrew-language geography books from the 1950s through 1970s focused on the glory of Israel’s ancient past and how the land was “neglected and destroyed” by the Arabs until the Jews returned from their forced exile and revived it “with the help of the Zionist movement.”



4. Geography textbooks justify the return of the Jews, implying that they care enough about the country to turn the swamps and deserts into blossoming farmland; this effectively delegitimizes the Arab claim to the same land



5. An excerpt from middle-school geography textbook: ``Palestinians were primitive and neglected the country and did not cultivate the land``.



6. Blatant negative stereotyping of Arabs as: “unenlightened, inferior, fatalistic, unproductive and apathetic.” Further, according to the textbooks, the Arabs were “tribal, vengeful, exotic, poor, sick, dirty, noisy, colored” and “they burn, murder, destroy, and are easily inflamed.”



7. Hebrew- as well as Arabic-language textbooks used in elementary and junior high schools contain very few references either to Arabs or to Arab-Jewish relations. Major historical events hardly get a mention either.



8. Textbooks used by the nearly one million Arab Israelis (one-fifth of Israel’s population) are in Arabic but are written by and issued from the Israeli Ministry of Education, where Palestinians have no influence or input.



9. For the past 15 years, not one new Palestinian academic has been placed in a high position in the ministry. There are no Palestinians involved in preparing the Arabic-language curriculum [and] obviously, there is no such thing as affirmative action in Israel.



10. There are no Arabic-language universities in Israel.



11. No major scholarships have ever been awarded to an Arab; there are no dorms for Arabs and no college-related jobs or financial aid programs. Israelis justify this legal discrimination by the fact that Arabs don`t serve in the army.



12. Discussion of Palestinian national and civil identity is never touched upon.



13. Elementary school textbooks teach children that Israel became a state in 1948 and that the Arabs started a war. They don’t mention what happened to the Arabs—they never mention anything about refugees or Arabs having to leave their towns and homes,”



14. Israeli researcher Adir Cohen sampled 86 children`s books. He counted the following descriptions used to dehumanize Arabs: Murderer was used 21 times; snake, 6 times; dirty, 9 times; vicious animal, 17 times; bloodthirsty, 21 times; warmonger, 17 times; killer, 13 times; believer in myths, 9 times; and a camel’s hump, 2 times.

#145 tahmed32

What is your point exactly? That we are to be subjected to the pompous and ignorant prattling of people who title themselves ``Excellency`` ? And that a sharp response to lies and disinformation is wrong?

#144 by pmishra2

Dear pmishra2, don`t bother lecturing us on hate material. Your own posts are dripping with it. Here is an advice: refrain from using terms like ``rogue-state`` for your neighbors. It just makes you sound like a Rwandan racist. Don`t tell us that you come from a secular, tolerant country. Show us that you belong to a secular, tolerant country.

When I asked questions about Israeli education system, I was looking for an objective analysis like the one AlephNull posted. It`s obvious (from your posts) that you are unfamiliar with concepts of ``objectivity`` and ``analysis``.

tahmed

Well said!

pmishra2: you are like a naked man who points to flaws in the other man`s clothes.

That is, the obsessive need to denigrate pakistan that is evident in posts from you and others (like the half-brain arjun, and with all due respect the doctor sahib rsridhar) on this board speaks for itself about the quality of education you have received in India. While there are a couple of pakistanis of your kind as well on chowk, by and large you dont find this obsessive need to degrade the India and Indians. I guess all well educated indians have better things to do than spend their time hooting at pakistanis. And most pakistanis here have lots of other things to talk about than trying to prove their superiority to indians.

#138 YourXXXX

Heh, heh ! I guess your fantasy got punctured here. From a sectarian scoundrel I am now promoted to being on the ``same page``. Aren`t facts really annoying.

Moving on to your next masterpiece (#141):

[quote]
Do Israeli schools also teach Jewish children about Judaism and superiority of Jewish people from an early age?? Do Jewish textbooks teach kids that Israel belongs to Israelis? Or do they acknowledge the claim of Palestinians to the same land? What do Israeli textbooks say about Muslims and non-Jews?
[end-quote]

I am familiar with these materials. They never emphasize anything like the ``superiority of anyone``. They certainly emphasize that Israel belongs to Israelis (WHo else does it belong to?). They clearly show the arab inhabitants of Israel as rightfully there and practicing their own culture. All three traditions: Christianity, Islam and Judaism are described without preference. You are clearly deeply ignorant of (modern) rabbinical judaism`s notion of ``others`` and how different it is from your own traditions.

Your comments clearly show the darkness in which the pakistani elite lives. Not the fanatics, because all fanatics are the same everywhere. You seriously believe that an open and democratic country like Israel would teach hatred in its elementary schools? Just because the military-ruled rogue state you originate from does??? You are truly deluded. Wow ! This is truly a revelation.

I am teaching my daughter Hindi from a NCERT textbook (Bal Bharati I) used throughout India today. It includes a chapted on Id and its celebration. There are four characters in the book:
Madan, Sushila, Sarla, Selma and Rahim. They play together and go to various activities in their little town.

Those who are aware of their ignorance can improve, but what of those who are unaware of it??? Truly a sad story here.

His excellency...

My History book in Grade 5 (in 1990) written by A K Haye of the Kakul Academy had a chapters on ancient Indian history, Ramayan, Maurayas, Asoka, Kanishka, and later on between the two chapters on Iqbal and Jinnah, there was a chapter on Gandhi who was praised abundantly. The view given was that Gandhi had a view different from Jinnah, yet this didn`t mean that Gandhi was a bad person ... that both had one final goal: peace and prosperity of the people...

It was not until I saw Gandhi the movie that I became aware of the abuse hurling match that Indians and Pakistanis were involved in with respect to their founding fathers who though political rivals always maintained very visible cordiality in public and never raised their voices with each other.

-YLH

#140 by AlephNull

The PDF that you posted is by far the most detailed and objective analysis of Pakistani curriculum. Most people of my generation (i.e. born in the mid-1970s) probably have no idea that earlier history textbooks even had chapters on Mauryas and M.K.Gandhi.

Some of the guidelines for social studies textbooks sound reasonable, e.g. teaching class-I kids about Islam, Quran, Kalima, Prophet Muhammad, etc. Children of that age are too young to be taught about other religions (especially religions that are not practised in their own households).

Nevertheless, Hindus have been unduly villified in some of these chapters. Children from non-Muslim families should also have been exempted from Islamiyat.

Since Pakistan is an ideological state like Israel, it would be interesting to compare the curricula of both countries. Do Israeli schools also teach Jewish children about Judaism and superiority of Jewish people from an early age?? Do Jewish textbooks teach kids that Israel belongs to Israelis? Or do they acknowledge the claim of Palestinians to the same land? What do Israeli textbooks say about Muslims and non-Jews?

The reason I ask these question is this:
The ideological and religious beliefs of the majority invariably impacts the curriculum of schools. If the majority believes in Calvinism, traces of Catholicism will eventually disappear from textbooks and social values. This is a natural phenomenon even in liberal and multireligious states. In ideological states like Israel/Pakistan, the Jews/Muslims comprise 90% of the population. It is therefore natural for the curricula of these states to reflect an Judaic or Islamist inclination.

While analysing the Pakistani curricula, we must therefore distinguish between Islamization (which IMHO is acceptable) and outright lies (e.g. ``Hindus don`t respect women``)

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#98 HisExcellency

{{Pakistan`s problem is low enrolment, not its textbooks.}}

and

#137 Rsridhar

The most extensive study of Pakistan school textbooks I’ve seen is a report prepared by an NGO called the Sustainable Development Policy Institute, and signed by A.H.Nayyar and Ahmed Salim. It is nearly 150 pages long and documents its assertions with extensive extracts from actual curricula and textbooks. The PDF versions can be found at the link below:

The Subtle Subversion: The State of Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan

What is contained in the report is pretty damning and a real eye-opener for Indians. It simply has no counterparts in my experiences with Indian curricula. I must disagree with the word ‘subtle’ in the title – the agitprop it describes is anything but subtle and belongs only in a thoroughly ideological state.

Unfortunately the report limits itself to Urdu, English, Social Studies and Civics, i.e. the subjects that most easily lend themselves to the ends of political-religious indoctrination. I would have liked to see the high school mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology curricula and textbooks to compare them with those in India. I do have extensive complaints with the prescribed school textbooks I had to use two decades ago in India – not so much with the very ambitious syllabi.

I tend to suspect that the Pakistani curricula and textbooks would suffer by comparison in these fields as well. If so, it may partly account for the well-nigh total failure of Pakistanis whether in the diaspora or in Pakistan, to make any kind of mark in technical or scientific fields.

#137 by rsridhar

Thanks for your post. These textbooks indeed need a revision.

But let me point out that History and Pak.Studies is just one of many subjects that people study in school and college. I don`t know about matriculation board, but atleast in my school, Pak.Studies/History was not a compulsory subject in O-levels and A-levels.

Perhaps an accurate description of history will help reduce the hatred between Indians and Pakistanis. But when I talk about education, I talk about the practical subjects such as Economics, Finance, Comp.Sci, natural sciences, etc.

A balanced analysis of education cannot dwell on just one subject (i.e. Pak Studies/History).

Another point worth mentioning: despite the distorted view of Hindus presented in History textbooks, the vast majority of Pakistani students (from both Urdu-medium and English-medium schools) are quite moderate and tolerant in their views. A survey conducted by Dr.Tariq Rehman last year revealed the 60-70% of Pakistani students wanted peaceful relations with India, opposed war, and opposed violence in Kashmir. Madrassah students on the other hand, expressed strong hatred for India, and staunch support for Jihad.

This only indicates that most Pakistani students do not blindly accept what they read in History textbooks. If there is a problem in Pakistan, it is the madrassahs who don`t even teach students to use their own brains.

#135 by pmishra2

Dear pmishra2. You are indeed my favorite retard...HEHEHE.
You unnecessarily wasted your time in looking up India and Pakistan on Gartner. The CIO report that I posted already states that Pakistan has ``very high`` geopolitical risk. In fact, CIO Magazine as well as Gartner mention geopolitical risk as Pakistan`s **only** problem-- not lack of IT skills, not lack of quality education, and certainly not the lack of infrastructure.

If you agree with this statement, then we are both on the same page here.

The topic of discussion is Education. And incidentally, some chowkies said that Pakistan`s low share in IT market is because of poor IT education. This of course is not true. Pakistan has a few superb IT institutes and lots of ``better-than-average`` as well as ``just-average`` institutes. Collectively, these institutes produce enough graduates to sustain a higher amount of IT revenue.

Nevertheless, the actual amount of Pakistani IT revenue is much less than the potential revenue. The reason for this is 9/11, not academic or ideological. This is exactly what Gartner and CIO reports have also established.

By inference therefore, since all others ducks in the Pakistani IT market are already aligned.. the reduction of geopolitical risk should remain the key policy objective for Pakistani government-- not a major overhaul of the education system as some chowkies suggested. Gartner and CIO also agree with this diagnosis.

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oh!His!Great!fradulence!

A modest search of Gartner archives reveals the following:

(1) Articles on outsourcing to India

[quote]
Current Search: india outsourcing
Your Research: 1-25 of 196 results
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 next page
[end-quote]

includes articles like

Comparison: Indian and Chinese Software Services Markets

An In-Depth Assessment of the Philippines for Offshore IT-Enabled Services

and NOT A SINGLE ARTICLE ABOUT THE KINGDOM OF JIHAD, aka Pakistan.

(2)

Current Search: pakistan outsourcing
Your Research: 1-22 of 22 results

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Management Alert: What You Should Do Because of the India/Pakistan Crisis
19 June 2002
Strategy, Trends & Tactics


Dion Wiggins | Rita Terdiman | Debashish Sinha | Sujay Chohan | Rebecca S Scholl | Frances Karamouzis


The tension between India and Pakistan has affected the IT outsourcing market in India. Gartner offers guidelines and recommendations for how enterprises and vendors should deal with the situation. Business continuity plans are key.


Business Continuity Planning; Business Process Outsourcing; Globalization; Sourcing Strategies





What You Should Do About the India/Pakistan Crisis
8 June 2002 Pages: 7
Strategy, Trends & Tactics


Dion Wiggins | Rita Terdiman | Debashish Sinha | Sujay Chohan | Rebecca S Scholl | Frances Karamouzis


The tension between India and Pakistan has affected the IT outsourcing market in India. Gartner offers guidelines for how enterprises and vendors should deal with this situation. Business continuity plans are key.


Business Continuity Planning; Globalization; IT Services; Sourcing Strategies

---

80% of the articles concern the war risk on India due to Pakistan. A few articles speak to outsourcing to Egypt, Czech Republic, Cyprus, Malaysia, Nigeria and, yes, Pakistan. Most of these are circa 2001.

---

You are welcome to your delusions regarding CIO magazine. Those of us who have real access to this information have a different view.

#131 by yantric

I believe in death sentence for both [married] men and women who engage in adultery provided it is proven beyond reasonable doubt. It is up to society to decide how to carry out this sentence. Death by hanging, lethal injection or electric chair are acceptable alternatives.

++
Regarding your query as to why Hadood laws were not abrogated in Pakistan after Zia kicked the bucket - Do you think any Pakistani will try to have them abrogated and face the wrath of mullahs/MQM/Al Qaeda/ and other assorted Jehadis. Wouldn`t he/she be branded as a kafir and may be stoned as well.
++

Wrath of Mullahs didn`t prevent Jinnah from creating Pakistan, did it? They used to call him ``Kafir-e-Azam``. Yet his political stature and charisma dwarfed the Mullahs. Asma Jehangir, Benazir Bhutto and various human rights activists have been dubbed ``kafirs`` at some point or the other. Has any of them been stoned to death?

Mullahs are politicians too. If they cast themselves against public opinion, they will become irrelevant (just like they were in 1947). The same Fazlur Rehman who used to oppose Benazir because she was a woman in 1988, joined her government in 1993 and became Chief of Kashmir Committee.

It is therefore a misconception that people in Pakistan are afraid to speak their minds out because of Mullahs. After Zia`s crash, people spoke out against the Hudood laws and especially Qanoon-e-Shahadat as well. However, majority of Pakistanis frown upon blasphemy, adultery, alcohol consumption anyways. And most don`t understand the Qanoon-e-Shahadat.

Perhaps the critics of Qanoon-e-Shahadat should do a better job of educating the masses about its ill effects.

re:#98 by HisExcellency

``God knows how you arrived at this conclusion!! Pakistan`s problem is low enrolment, not its textbooks.``
You must be ignorant of a lot of things to make the above statement.
I am now going to quote a couple of articles to prove you are totally wrong.
Url:
http://members.tripod.com/~no_nukes_sa/chapter_8.html (written by a Pakistani)
Excerpts:
``Following the instructions given as `Specific Learning Objectives` in the curriculum for Pakistan/Social Studies for Class V, namely ``to understand the Hindu and Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan``, the writers project Hindu-Muslim differences. A survey of textbooks reveals this theme running through them all the way up to the graduation level. It can be summarised as follows: Muslims and Hindus lived always in a deeply hostile and antagonistic relationship. The Muslims were broadminded, accommodating and brought enlightenment to an otherwise inhuman society characterised only by the caste system and the practice of Sati.

The class 4 text book states:

The religion of the Hindus did not teach them good things -- Hindus did not respect women...

Another book tells the students:

Hindus worship in temples which are very narrow and dark places, where they worship idols. Only one person can enter the temple at a time. In our mosques, on the other hand, all Muslims can say their prayers together.

For another, the Hindus as a monolith were always cunning, scheming, and conspiring to deprive the Muslims of their due rights:

The Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation. Several attempts were made by the Hindus to erase the Muslim culture and civilisation. Hindi-Urdu controversy, shudhi and sanghtan movements are the most glaring examples of the ignoble Hindu mentality .

If the Hindus had any national aspirations then these were clearly a sign of their prejudices, while if the Muslim kings and invaders plundered Hindu temples then presumably they did so with very noble intentions.

The experience of colonialism is described in a textbook as a British-Hindu conspiracy:

The British joined forces with the Hindus to bring harm to the Muslims. Muslims tried in every way to maintain good relations with the British and Hindus, but they did not allow it to be so.

This typecasting of Hindus as a nation of collaborators in league with their colonial masters is typical. The entire freedom struggle is thus represented as though it was primarily a struggle of Muslims against a joint force of British and Hindus:

Exploiting the anti-Muslim policy of the British, the Hindus fully collaborated with them and obtained all kinds of monetary benefits. The British opened the doors of government service to them and also encouraged them in trade and commerce.

One book declares:

He (Mr. Jinnah) wanted to establish here a separate homeland for the Muslims . The Hindus did not like this and became his enemies. The English were also with Hindus.

Descriptions of the traumas of partition and the horrors that occurred are treated in a similarly biased manner:

While the Muslims provided all type of help to those wishing to leave Pakistan, the people of India committed cruelties against the Muslims (refugees). They would attack the buses, trucks, and trains carrying the Muslim refugees and they were murdered and looted.

It is hard to see such material as anything but an effort to fill young minds with hatred against an enemy, rather than against the acts of depravity and savagery committed by both sides. ``

The same article states:
`` The historical and cultural inevitability of Hindu-Muslim conflict and the attendant creation of irrational hate against Hindus are not confined to the curriculum and textbooks for young children in government primary schools. It continues all the way up to the degree level and extends even into the private education sector. No sector of education is immune. ``

Read on :

``As if this was not enough, education in Pakistan is now such that even the history of recent events, i.e. those within the lifetime of the parents of many of the children using these books, is not spared. For example while describing the events relating to the war of 1965 the book for Class 4 declares:
India always took initiative in souring relations between the two countries and on September 6, 1965, India launched an attack at the Lahore border without declaring war. Pakistani forces gave a befitting reply, and captured many Indian territorial areas``

``A little later the same book describes the outcome of the war as:

At last in the face of the valour of Pakistani soldiers and the people, the Indians surrendered.

The text on Muasherati Ulum for Class V says in the same context:
In the face of defeat, India pleaded with the UN to stop the war. The war ended and Pakistan returned the Indian territories.

Not to be outdone, the book of Pakistan Studies ``Mutalia-e-Pakistan`` for classes 9 and 10 states, in the context of the separation of East Pakistan:
In 1971 while Pakistan was facing political difficulties in East Pakistan, India helped anti-Pakistan elements and later on attacked Pakistan.… As a result of this war in December 1971, the eastern wing of Pakistan separated and appeared as Bangladesh on the world map.
As may be evident, both these selections suffer from gross omissions related to the events leading to the two wars in which the adventurism of the Pakistani establishment (the 1965 war) or the systematic policy of keeping the Bengalis out of power (the 1971 war) played a key role in precipitating the respective crises. These are classic examples of presenting historical events in such a manner as to absolve the Pakistani state of its fair share of the blame while laying the entire onus for these catastrophes on enemies.``

In this other article ``The menace of sectarian education`` Pervez Hoodhbhoy talks about the education system in Pak:
http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php/20030428231558859
According to Hoodhbhoy:
``The usefulness of having a national curriculum was soon recognized by General Zia-ul-Haq. In 1981 he decreed that henceforth Pakistani education was to be totally redefined and history rewritten according to his vision of Pakistan. From now on the struggle for Pakistan was no longer to be shown as a victorious struggle for a Muslim homeland. Instead, it was to be depicted as the movement for an Islamic state run according to Islamic law. Even if it conflicted with reality, the heroes of the Pakistan movement - Jinnah, Iqbal, Syed Ahmed Khan - were to be projected as Islamic heroes. Furthermore all subjects, including the sciences, were to be speedily Islamized. ``

More excerpts from the same Url:

``National Bureau of Curriculum and Textbooks Federal Ministry of Education, 1995 Government of Pakistan.

At the completion of Class-V, the child should be able to:
· "Acknowledge and identify forces that may be working against Pakistan.``[pg 154]
· "Demonstrate by actions a belief in the fear of Allah.`` [pg154]
· "Make speeches on Jehad and Shahadat`` [pg154]
· "Understand Hindu-Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan.`` [pg154]
· "India`s evil designs against Pakistan.`` [pg154]
· "Be safe from rumour mongers who spread false news`` [pg158]
· "Visit police stations`` [pg158]
· "Collect pictures of policemen, soldiers, and National Guards`` [pg158]
· "Demonstrate respect for the leaders of Pakistan`` [pg153]``

``Consider the kind of people the national curriculum seeks to install as role models. They are not scholars and poets or scientists, nor people like Abdus Sattar Edhi or others who have struggled for the rights of others. Instead they are policemen, national guards, and soldiers. The child must collect their pictures, revere them, perhaps kiss them. His visits to police stations - where rapes, tortures, and deaths in custody occur so routinely as to be unremarkable - is expected to imbue him with the spirit of humanism and patriotism. Is a greater perversion of human values really possible?``
Go to the Url ( http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php/20030428231558859) to educate yourself more about the educational mess Pak is in.
There are a number of such articles but i think these 2 by Pakistanis themselves, should suffice.
Sridhar

His..... #106

I did not ask you whether in Pakistan stoning women to death was ever carried out. The question is that whether you agree with the principle ? It is being carried out in other islamic countries. Do you agree with that ?

Regarding your query as to why Hadood laws were not abrogated in Pakistan after Zia kicked the bucket - Do you think any Pakistani will try to have them abrogated and face the wrath of mullahs/MQM/Al Qaeda/ and other assorted Jehadis. Wouldn`t he/she be branded as a kafir and may be stoned as well.

wajahat # 124

Assuming that you are Syed Ali, the blame goes squarely to you. You should have taken the lead and mederated your thread. These hindus suffering from acute inferiority complex will always ruin your thread boasting how big theirs is. (Which ain`t, and they know it.)

re: arjun_m

++
The pakistani IT industry reports exports at 25million$. There was a dailytimes report on this. The numbers are nowhere near the 100million$ mark...
++

You didn`t read the CIO report. Read it again. It clearly puts the market size at $130m. Unlike CIO, the Daily Times is not a professional IT publication so it must be quoting figures from either the PSEB (Pak. Software Export Board) figures or PASHA (Pak Software Houses Assoication). Perhaps you should psot the entire news item so that we may verify the figures and their source.

++
Jihadi violence kills a brigadier in Kashmir. The same jihadis kill french engineers in Karachi.
++

Back to your political groove again, eh?

Speculations aside, there is absolutely no shred of evidence to establish a link between JeM/LeT/Hizbul Mujahideen and the terrorists who attacked the French engineers. These were neither the same people... nor did they have the same motivation. The former are fighting for a cause that has been legimtized by dozens of UN resolutions. The latter were reacting to Pakistan`s support for the U.S. war on terror.

#121 by arjun_m

++
That`s not how this model works. Good Experienced are hard to come by everywhere. The cost of hiring good experienced people isn`t an issue because it is usually spread out over the project.
++

You are making sweeping statements here. The project matrix (cost, quality, training, distance, control, risk factors) varies with the type of project. (i.e. application development, application maintenance, helpdesk, QA testing, system integration, e-business, business continuity/disaster recovery, IT security, call center, enterprise application integration, etc).

Generally cost is the numero uno factor outsourcing decisions though experience too helps. Pakistan, Russia and China surely lag behind India in the managerial area, but in the programming expertise these countries are competitive with India. (Programming is not rocket science anyway; 4-5 years of experience and one certification suffice for 80% of engagements; there are plenty of MCSD/J2EE/SAP certified professionals in these countries).

hamidm2 sahib:

i did not know about this organisation. so many thanks for the link. and please continue to pass out such information in the future.

Syed Ali:
From what I have learnt from Pakistani chowkies, it seems to me that the challenge in Pakistan is to improve both the quality and quantity of education. People who can afford to send their children to private schools seem to be getting a fairly decent education. If I am not mistaken, even the history taught in the English medium schools differs from that taught in govt. schools. The State must fulfil its responsibility of extending free education to small towns and rural areas, otherwise the gap will continue to be filled by the Madrassahs, especially of the kind that provide free boarding in return for teaching their brand of religion. And the emphasis must be on teaching language and arithmetic skills at the elementary level, with an emphasis on nourishing curiousity and the desire to know and learn. As far as history is concerned, one can understand the twisted version of history being taught (and this has been done in other countries as well), since the purpose is nation-building and a sometimes distorted version may be acceptable to achieve that purpose.
If you want to look for answers, don`t look at India. Despite some oasis of excellence, such as IITs and some private schools, the general quality of education in India is not much to write home about. India chose to spend too much of its eduational budget to subsidise higher education for the middle and upper middle classes while starving elementary education the resources it needed.

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HisExcellency #116

`` HEHEHE.. Russian exports are just $231m. Are you going to tell me that Indian educational system is better than Russia as well?? You guyz tested your first nuke in 1974... the Russians did it in 1950s. Or chew this... of the 25 best Engineering schools in Asia and 25 best MBA schools, there are only 3 Indian schools... Australian, Chinese, Singaporean and Japanese schools take the cake. Yet the total IT exports of these 4 countries are not even half of India. ``

Russia uses Russian for technical studies which is an impediment to IT outsourcing. Russian education system is in a state of disarray due to economic disarray. They are living off their past glory. Do not be surprised if India overtakes Russia in most fields in 10 years.

Australia is not an IT exporter or tech developer. Name one Australian tech company. They use IT to support their agriculture and tourism industries. Singapore is a base for MNCs nothing more or less. Japan is a formidable IT power. Their IT power is reflected in exports of Toyotas and Sony`s.

`` If your yardstick of measuring educational systems through IT export volume is true, then Australia, China, Singapore and Japan should produce more IT exports than India. Since their IT revenues are less than India, and their Engineering/MBA schools are certainly miles ahead of India, your ``brilliant`` criterion must be bogus. ``

Those countries have a per captia income much higher than India. Whether they make it from IT or not is irrelevant. Like India Pakistan faces serious economic troubles. What is Pakistan`s problem in not participating in the IT boom ? Not interested in money ???

This is a pretty challenging article from Syed Ali. However, I would like to question an average writer on Chowk`s desire to be over-critical of everything we have done. I have some concernes here:

1. If Pakistani students are not taught anything about EP/BD, are American students taught about how the Red Indians were wiped out, how Japan was bombed and how many people died there, how Vietnamese were treated during the Vietnam war, etc.? Are Australian kids taught that their lineage goes to such and such criminals, how they annihiliated the Aboriginies, etc. ? Are British kids taught that the archaeological wonders from all over the world that their museums showcase are actually thefts from regions like Asian Sub-continent?

2. If they are taught about the above things then in what context? For example, are the American kids taught about the magnitude of destruction of two nuclear bombs on Japan in two finishing sentences after devoting 10 pages on atrocities committed by Japanese military?

3. If e.g. reality is taught in liberal, secular, pluralist society of India, then why the Indians like Bal Thakray, Modi, Joshi and Advani and chowksters like arjun_m, jay, gay, m souza, pmishra, saxena, etc. remind us of Talibani extremists? At least we should be expecting from Indian politicians and leaders like Advanis to be standing out far and above their Pakistani counterparts in their open-mindedness. Indian analysts like Samit Ganguly and its television channels should not be reminding us of Goebbles. An average Indian should appear free from the propaganda that India`s current Government is bombarding them with subsequent to 9/11. There should have been no Godhra, Gujrat and Mumbai riots of the early 90s. There should have been no mob violence.

We criticise ourselves too much. Let the young girl sing and let the Imam recite the Azaan. The two have coexisted for all that long. Who are we as an outsider to complain? These two variations exist in every society. The name of the game is ability to accept the difference as part of a tolerant society. As a tolerant society, if Pakistan has failed due to its failed education then India has also failed despite its successful education. Therefore, the problem lies somewhere else.

Why is it that most of these posts eventually turn out to be a Pak vs India debate. The article requested from the outset that if you have to conduct a pissing game you should agree with your competition and go to another board dedicated to you antics. Having said that there were some ideas put forward by readers who are more interested in the subject than their patriotic egos. I would request that those readers should actually critique other positive ideas put forward by other readers and rationalise it with their own. We cannot give up because some imbeciles have started a sling match and totally defaced the debate in question.

HisExcellency:
``By your logic, Hindus should also be encouraged to insult Ram, Sita, Hanuman, Brahmu, Vishnu, Shiva, Ganesh and all other gods. Moreover, Hindus should start consuming alcohol and shun all forms of decency taught by the Vedas and Puranas. Only by insulting their religion and violating its norms, can the Hindus become educated and progressive, right??``

I was surprised to see this from you. Freedom of speech does not mean encouraging people to insult their or others` icons/religions, merely to tolerate those who are foolish/courageous enough to do so!

His excellency

First of all...why the hell are you arguing with a total loser like P-Mishra... he is just a hate mongering anti-Pakistan, anti-muslim fanatic. Secondly... your exchange with Romair though interesting is useless.. given that the other side of that fibre optic is mentally dunce...

If your figures are true then that is awesome news..


-YLH

Romair#95:
``All of us have now reached the Director level in comapanies, and are new entreprenuers.``
All? Very impressive indeed!
This article is quite irrelevant. Pakistani educational system must be doing something right and does not need any improvement. India`s IITs and IIMs should send delgations to Pakistani educational institutes to find out their secret of turning out world class leaders who become directors in American companies a few years after landing here.

#107 by arjun_m

++
India exports more than 8 billion $ worth of IT and Pakiland a piddly 25million $. Does that mean we should generalize and draw conclusions about the Indian/Paki education system?

Hell yes...
++

HEHEHE.. Russian exports are just $231m. Are you going to tell me that Indian educational system is better than Russia as well?? You guyz tested your first nuke in 1974... the Russians did it in 1950s. Or chew this... of the 25 best Engineering schools in Asia and 25 best MBA schools, there are only 3 Indian schools... Australian, Chinese, Singaporean and Japanese schools take the cake. Yet the total IT exports of these 4 countries are not even half of India.

If your yardstick of measuring educational systems through IT export volume is true, then Australia, China, Singapore and Japan should produce more IT exports than India. Since their IT revenues are less than India, and their Engineering/MBA schools are certainly miles ahead of India, your ``brilliant`` criterion must be bogus.

Go figure.

Where a country is spending only 2% of their budget on education, then what quality of education you people are expecting? Let me clear this to you I am patriotic Pakistani but the eyes never be twinkled to look the fact. I am working abroad and I have a better comparison. India`s education quality is very higher than Pakistanis as they belong to any state of India but their children starts talking in English when they grew up. No one can foreget their mother tongue. The reason is their parents are qualified they knows