A Failed Education

#140 by AlephNull

The PDF that you posted is by far the most detailed and objective analysis of Pakistani curriculum. Most people of my generation (i.e. born in the mid-1970s) probably have no idea that earlier history textbooks even had chapters on Mauryas and M.K.Gandhi.

Some of the guidelines for social studies textbooks sound reasonable, e.g. teaching class-I kids about Islam, Quran, Kalima, Prophet Muhammad, etc. Children of that age are too young to be taught about other religions (especially religions that are not practised in their own households).

Nevertheless, Hindus have been unduly villified in some of these chapters. Children from non-Muslim families should also have been exempted from Islamiyat.

Since Pakistan is an ideological state like Israel, it would be interesting to compare the curricula of both countries. Do Israeli schools also teach Jewish children about Judaism and superiority of Jewish people from an early age?? Do Jewish textbooks teach kids that Israel belongs to Israelis? Or do they acknowledge the claim of Palestinians to the same land? What do Israeli textbooks say about Muslims and non-Jews?

The reason I ask these question is this:
The ideological and religious beliefs of the majority invariably impacts the curriculum of schools. If the majority believes in Calvinism, traces of Catholicism will eventually disappear from textbooks and social values. This is a natural phenomenon even in liberal and multireligious states. In ideological states like Israel/Pakistan, the Jews/Muslims comprise 90% of the population. It is therefore natural for the curricula of these states to reflect an Judaic or Islamist inclination.

While analysing the Pakistani curricula, we must therefore distinguish between Islamization (which IMHO is acceptable) and outright lies (e.g. ``Hindus don`t respect women``)

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

#98 HisExcellency

{{Pakistan`s problem is low enrolment, not its textbooks.}}

and

#137 Rsridhar

The most extensive study of Pakistan school textbooks I’ve seen is a report prepared by an NGO called the Sustainable Development Policy Institute, and signed by A.H.Nayyar and Ahmed Salim. It is nearly 150 pages long and documents its assertions with extensive extracts from actual curricula and textbooks. The PDF versions can be found at the link below:

The Subtle Subversion: The State of Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan

What is contained in the report is pretty damning and a real eye-opener for Indians. It simply has no counterparts in my experiences with Indian curricula. I must disagree with the word ‘subtle’ in the title – the agitprop it describes is anything but subtle and belongs only in a thoroughly ideological state.

Unfortunately the report limits itself to Urdu, English, Social Studies and Civics, i.e. the subjects that most easily lend themselves to the ends of political-religious indoctrination. I would have liked to see the high school mathematics, physics, chemistry, biology curricula and textbooks to compare them with those in India. I do have extensive complaints with the prescribed school textbooks I had to use two decades ago in India – not so much with the very ambitious syllabi.

I tend to suspect that the Pakistani curricula and textbooks would suffer by comparison in these fields as well. If so, it may partly account for the well-nigh total failure of Pakistanis whether in the diaspora or in Pakistan, to make any kind of mark in technical or scientific fields.

#137 by rsridhar

Thanks for your post. These textbooks indeed need a revision.

But let me point out that History and Pak.Studies is just one of many subjects that people study in school and college. I don`t know about matriculation board, but atleast in my school, Pak.Studies/History was not a compulsory subject in O-levels and A-levels.

Perhaps an accurate description of history will help reduce the hatred between Indians and Pakistanis. But when I talk about education, I talk about the practical subjects such as Economics, Finance, Comp.Sci, natural sciences, etc.

A balanced analysis of education cannot dwell on just one subject (i.e. Pak Studies/History).

Another point worth mentioning: despite the distorted view of Hindus presented in History textbooks, the vast majority of Pakistani students (from both Urdu-medium and English-medium schools) are quite moderate and tolerant in their views. A survey conducted by Dr.Tariq Rehman last year revealed the 60-70% of Pakistani students wanted peaceful relations with India, opposed war, and opposed violence in Kashmir. Madrassah students on the other hand, expressed strong hatred for India, and staunch support for Jihad.

This only indicates that most Pakistani students do not blindly accept what they read in History textbooks. If there is a problem in Pakistan, it is the madrassahs who don`t even teach students to use their own brains.

#135 by pmishra2

Dear pmishra2. You are indeed my favorite retard...HEHEHE.
You unnecessarily wasted your time in looking up India and Pakistan on Gartner. The CIO report that I posted already states that Pakistan has ``very high`` geopolitical risk. In fact, CIO Magazine as well as Gartner mention geopolitical risk as Pakistan`s **only** problem-- not lack of IT skills, not lack of quality education, and certainly not the lack of infrastructure.

If you agree with this statement, then we are both on the same page here.

The topic of discussion is Education. And incidentally, some chowkies said that Pakistan`s low share in IT market is because of poor IT education. This of course is not true. Pakistan has a few superb IT institutes and lots of ``better-than-average`` as well as ``just-average`` institutes. Collectively, these institutes produce enough graduates to sustain a higher amount of IT revenue.

Nevertheless, the actual amount of Pakistani IT revenue is much less than the potential revenue. The reason for this is 9/11, not academic or ideological. This is exactly what Gartner and CIO reports have also established.

By inference therefore, since all others ducks in the Pakistani IT market are already aligned.. the reduction of geopolitical risk should remain the key policy objective for Pakistani government-- not a major overhaul of the education system as some chowkies suggested. Gartner and CIO also agree with this diagnosis.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

oh!His!Great!fradulence!

A modest search of Gartner archives reveals the following:

(1) Articles on outsourcing to India

[quote]
Current Search: india outsourcing
Your Research: 1-25 of 196 results
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 next page
[end-quote]

includes articles like

Comparison: Indian and Chinese Software Services Markets

An In-Depth Assessment of the Philippines for Offshore IT-Enabled Services

and NOT A SINGLE ARTICLE ABOUT THE KINGDOM OF JIHAD, aka Pakistan.

(2)

Current Search: pakistan outsourcing
Your Research: 1-22 of 22 results

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Management Alert: What You Should Do Because of the India/Pakistan Crisis
19 June 2002
Strategy, Trends & Tactics


Dion Wiggins | Rita Terdiman | Debashish Sinha | Sujay Chohan | Rebecca S Scholl | Frances Karamouzis


The tension between India and Pakistan has affected the IT outsourcing market in India. Gartner offers guidelines and recommendations for how enterprises and vendors should deal with the situation. Business continuity plans are key.


Business Continuity Planning; Business Process Outsourcing; Globalization; Sourcing Strategies





What You Should Do About the India/Pakistan Crisis
8 June 2002 Pages: 7
Strategy, Trends & Tactics


Dion Wiggins | Rita Terdiman | Debashish Sinha | Sujay Chohan | Rebecca S Scholl | Frances Karamouzis


The tension between India and Pakistan has affected the IT outsourcing market in India. Gartner offers guidelines for how enterprises and vendors should deal with this situation. Business continuity plans are key.


Business Continuity Planning; Globalization; IT Services; Sourcing Strategies

---

80% of the articles concern the war risk on India due to Pakistan. A few articles speak to outsourcing to Egypt, Czech Republic, Cyprus, Malaysia, Nigeria and, yes, Pakistan. Most of these are circa 2001.

---

You are welcome to your delusions regarding CIO magazine. Those of us who have real access to this information have a different view.

#131 by yantric

I believe in death sentence for both [married] men and women who engage in adultery provided it is proven beyond reasonable doubt. It is up to society to decide how to carry out this sentence. Death by hanging, lethal injection or electric chair are acceptable alternatives.

++
Regarding your query as to why Hadood laws were not abrogated in Pakistan after Zia kicked the bucket - Do you think any Pakistani will try to have them abrogated and face the wrath of mullahs/MQM/Al Qaeda/ and other assorted Jehadis. Wouldn`t he/she be branded as a kafir and may be stoned as well.
++

Wrath of Mullahs didn`t prevent Jinnah from creating Pakistan, did it? They used to call him ``Kafir-e-Azam``. Yet his political stature and charisma dwarfed the Mullahs. Asma Jehangir, Benazir Bhutto and various human rights activists have been dubbed ``kafirs`` at some point or the other. Has any of them been stoned to death?

Mullahs are politicians too. If they cast themselves against public opinion, they will become irrelevant (just like they were in 1947). The same Fazlur Rehman who used to oppose Benazir because she was a woman in 1988, joined her government in 1993 and became Chief of Kashmir Committee.

It is therefore a misconception that people in Pakistan are afraid to speak their minds out because of Mullahs. After Zia`s crash, people spoke out against the Hudood laws and especially Qanoon-e-Shahadat as well. However, majority of Pakistanis frown upon blasphemy, adultery, alcohol consumption anyways. And most don`t understand the Qanoon-e-Shahadat.

Perhaps the critics of Qanoon-e-Shahadat should do a better job of educating the masses about its ill effects.

re:#98 by HisExcellency

``God knows how you arrived at this conclusion!! Pakistan`s problem is low enrolment, not its textbooks.``
You must be ignorant of a lot of things to make the above statement.
I am now going to quote a couple of articles to prove you are totally wrong.
Url:
http://members.tripod.com/~no_nukes_sa/chapter_8.html (written by a Pakistani)
Excerpts:
``Following the instructions given as `Specific Learning Objectives` in the curriculum for Pakistan/Social Studies for Class V, namely ``to understand the Hindu and Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan``, the writers project Hindu-Muslim differences. A survey of textbooks reveals this theme running through them all the way up to the graduation level. It can be summarised as follows: Muslims and Hindus lived always in a deeply hostile and antagonistic relationship. The Muslims were broadminded, accommodating and brought enlightenment to an otherwise inhuman society characterised only by the caste system and the practice of Sati.

The class 4 text book states:

The religion of the Hindus did not teach them good things -- Hindus did not respect women...

Another book tells the students:

Hindus worship in temples which are very narrow and dark places, where they worship idols. Only one person can enter the temple at a time. In our mosques, on the other hand, all Muslims can say their prayers together.

For another, the Hindus as a monolith were always cunning, scheming, and conspiring to deprive the Muslims of their due rights:

The Hindus always desired to crush the Muslims as a nation. Several attempts were made by the Hindus to erase the Muslim culture and civilisation. Hindi-Urdu controversy, shudhi and sanghtan movements are the most glaring examples of the ignoble Hindu mentality .

If the Hindus had any national aspirations then these were clearly a sign of their prejudices, while if the Muslim kings and invaders plundered Hindu temples then presumably they did so with very noble intentions.

The experience of colonialism is described in a textbook as a British-Hindu conspiracy:

The British joined forces with the Hindus to bring harm to the Muslims. Muslims tried in every way to maintain good relations with the British and Hindus, but they did not allow it to be so.

This typecasting of Hindus as a nation of collaborators in league with their colonial masters is typical. The entire freedom struggle is thus represented as though it was primarily a struggle of Muslims against a joint force of British and Hindus:

Exploiting the anti-Muslim policy of the British, the Hindus fully collaborated with them and obtained all kinds of monetary benefits. The British opened the doors of government service to them and also encouraged them in trade and commerce.

One book declares:

He (Mr. Jinnah) wanted to establish here a separate homeland for the Muslims . The Hindus did not like this and became his enemies. The English were also with Hindus.

Descriptions of the traumas of partition and the horrors that occurred are treated in a similarly biased manner:

While the Muslims provided all type of help to those wishing to leave Pakistan, the people of India committed cruelties against the Muslims (refugees). They would attack the buses, trucks, and trains carrying the Muslim refugees and they were murdered and looted.

It is hard to see such material as anything but an effort to fill young minds with hatred against an enemy, rather than against the acts of depravity and savagery committed by both sides. ``

The same article states:
`` The historical and cultural inevitability of Hindu-Muslim conflict and the attendant creation of irrational hate against Hindus are not confined to the curriculum and textbooks for young children in government primary schools. It continues all the way up to the degree level and extends even into the private education sector. No sector of education is immune. ``

Read on :

``As if this was not enough, education in Pakistan is now such that even the history of recent events, i.e. those within the lifetime of the parents of many of the children using these books, is not spared. For example while describing the events relating to the war of 1965 the book for Class 4 declares:
India always took initiative in souring relations between the two countries and on September 6, 1965, India launched an attack at the Lahore border without declaring war. Pakistani forces gave a befitting reply, and captured many Indian territorial areas``

``A little later the same book describes the outcome of the war as:

At last in the face of the valour of Pakistani soldiers and the people, the Indians surrendered.

The text on Muasherati Ulum for Class V says in the same context:
In the face of defeat, India pleaded with the UN to stop the war. The war ended and Pakistan returned the Indian territories.

Not to be outdone, the book of Pakistan Studies ``Mutalia-e-Pakistan`` for classes 9 and 10 states, in the context of the separation of East Pakistan:
In 1971 while Pakistan was facing political difficulties in East Pakistan, India helped anti-Pakistan elements and later on attacked Pakistan.… As a result of this war in December 1971, the eastern wing of Pakistan separated and appeared as Bangladesh on the world map.
As may be evident, both these selections suffer from gross omissions related to the events leading to the two wars in which the adventurism of the Pakistani establishment (the 1965 war) or the systematic policy of keeping the Bengalis out of power (the 1971 war) played a key role in precipitating the respective crises. These are classic examples of presenting historical events in such a manner as to absolve the Pakistani state of its fair share of the blame while laying the entire onus for these catastrophes on enemies.``

In this other article ``The menace of sectarian education`` Pervez Hoodhbhoy talks about the education system in Pak:
http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php/20030428231558859
According to Hoodhbhoy:
``The usefulness of having a national curriculum was soon recognized by General Zia-ul-Haq. In 1981 he decreed that henceforth Pakistani education was to be totally redefined and history rewritten according to his vision of Pakistan. From now on the struggle for Pakistan was no longer to be shown as a victorious struggle for a Muslim homeland. Instead, it was to be depicted as the movement for an Islamic state run according to Islamic law. Even if it conflicted with reality, the heroes of the Pakistan movement - Jinnah, Iqbal, Syed Ahmed Khan - were to be projected as Islamic heroes. Furthermore all subjects, including the sciences, were to be speedily Islamized. ``

More excerpts from the same Url:

``National Bureau of Curriculum and Textbooks Federal Ministry of Education, 1995 Government of Pakistan.

At the completion of Class-V, the child should be able to:
· "Acknowledge and identify forces that may be working against Pakistan.``[pg 154]
· "Demonstrate by actions a belief in the fear of Allah.`` [pg154]
· "Make speeches on Jehad and Shahadat`` [pg154]
· "Understand Hindu-Muslim differences and the resultant need for Pakistan.`` [pg154]
· "India`s evil designs against Pakistan.`` [pg154]
· "Be safe from rumour mongers who spread false news`` [pg158]
· "Visit police stations`` [pg158]
· "Collect pictures of policemen, soldiers, and National Guards`` [pg158]
· "Demonstrate respect for the leaders of Pakistan`` [pg153]``

``Consider the kind of people the national curriculum seeks to install as role models. They are not scholars and poets or scientists, nor people like Abdus Sattar Edhi or others who have struggled for the rights of others. Instead they are policemen, national guards, and soldiers. The child must collect their pictures, revere them, perhaps kiss them. His visits to police stations - where rapes, tortures, and deaths in custody occur so routinely as to be unremarkable - is expected to imbue him with the spirit of humanism and patriotism. Is a greater perversion of human values really possible?``
Go to the Url ( http://www.pakistan-facts.com/article.php/20030428231558859) to educate yourself more about the educational mess Pak is in.
There are a number of such articles but i think these 2 by Pakistanis themselves, should suffice.
Sridhar

His..... #106

I did not ask you whether in Pakistan stoning women to death was ever carried out. The question is that whether you agree with the principle ? It is being carried out in other islamic countries. Do you agree with that ?

Regarding your query as to why Hadood laws were not abrogated in Pakistan after Zia kicked the bucket - Do you think any Pakistani will try to have them abrogated and face the wrath of mullahs/MQM/Al Qaeda/ and other assorted Jehadis. Wouldn`t he/she be branded as a kafir and may be stoned as well.

wajahat # 124

Assuming that you are Syed Ali, the blame goes squarely to you. You should have taken the lead and mederated your thread. These hindus suffering from acute inferiority complex will always ruin your thread boasting how big theirs is. (Which ain`t, and they know it.)

re: arjun_m

++
The pakistani IT industry reports exports at 25million$. There was a dailytimes report on this. The numbers are nowhere near the 100million$ mark...
++

You didn`t read the CIO report. Read it again. It clearly puts the market size at $130m. Unlike CIO, the Daily Times is not a professional IT publication so it must be quoting figures from either the PSEB (Pak. Software Export Board) figures or PASHA (Pak Software Houses Assoication). Perhaps you should psot the entire news item so that we may verify the figures and their source.

++
Jihadi violence kills a brigadier in Kashmir. The same jihadis kill french engineers in Karachi.
++

Back to your political groove again, eh?

Speculations aside, there is absolutely no shred of evidence to establish a link between JeM/LeT/Hizbul Mujahideen and the terrorists who attacked the French engineers. These were neither the same people... nor did they have the same motivation. The former are fighting for a cause that has been legimtized by dozens of UN resolutions. The latter were reacting to Pakistan`s support for the U.S. war on terror.

#121 by arjun_m

++
That`s not how this model works. Good Experienced are hard to come by everywhere. The cost of hiring good experienced people isn`t an issue because it is usually spread out over the project.
++

You are making sweeping statements here. The project matrix (cost, quality, training, distance, control, risk factors) varies with the type of project. (i.e. application development, application maintenance, helpdesk, QA testing, system integration, e-business, business continuity/disaster recovery, IT security, call center, enterprise application integration, etc).

Generally cost is the numero uno factor outsourcing decisions though experience too helps. Pakistan, Russia and China surely lag behind India in the managerial area, but in the programming expertise these countries are competitive with India. (Programming is not rocket science anyway; 4-5 years of experience and one certification suffice for 80% of engagements; there are plenty of MCSD/J2EE/SAP certified professionals in these countries).