Monsoon Days

dost mittar #118 While I do indeed have great love for pakistan, and i do indeed consider islam to be a very positive religion if properly understood, this by no means implies that it is at the expense of disrespect for any other culture. I have therefore always called for respect for other religions, including hinduism, in a hundred different ways on chowk. I have expressed appreciation for the rich culture of India.

It is true that I dont tolerate bs (paki bashing OR hindu bashing for that matter) and have sometimes gotten into some nasty exchanges with such posters. This does not change my basic views, although they do provide a dose of realism - neither all indians nor all pakistans, even after education, are free from the primitive aspects of their culture (and ridiculing other people`s religions is certainly the mark of a primitive environment the individual grew up in).

So could you please explain exactly what the problem is that you say you and dullabhatti have with what i write?? Is it that you dont really believe what I have written about respect for all cultures in the first para. above. Or are my conclusions in the second para. in anyway contradictory to what I have written in the first para.?? I am really curious to understand.

tahmed32:
...and I object to azaan only if the muezzin is `besuraa`:-).

tahmed32#117
I am not for banning religion; that post was only in retaliation to your remark about the killing of panjabi/tamil.
And you are right, even seventy years of official atheism could not kick the soviet citizen`s addiction to their `opium`. I have always maintained that religion fulfils an important need of many people to have a sense of certainty in their lives and hereafter and may add to their sense of fulfilment.
But you are wrong about the ability of translation. Could you tell me of a single translated ghazal of Ghalib which had captured even a fraction of the beauty of the original? Or of Shakespeare`s Hindustani translations achieving the same effect? I suspect that the same is true of the translations of Rumi or Omar Khayyam. The wealth of languages and cultures, even religious cultures, has been accumulated over millenia and it would be criminal of us to lose this wealth in the name of globalism.

dullabhatti#116:
Some people love their religion more than their country or culture, some love their countries more than their religion or culture, and some love their culture more than their religion or their countries. All are okay in my book as long as they do not want to score points at the cost of others. This is where you and I have a bit of problem with what tahmed says.

dost mittar #115 Freedom to practice one`s religion is in fact as much the right of any individual as is the freedom to not practice any religion. So, I would say that banning religion in fact means curbing individual freedom. An agnostic has as much of a right to be an agnostic as a hindu or muslim has to his beliefs.
Even if one agreed in principal that banning religion is a good idea (I shall discuss this further a bit below), the fact is that this has been tried as part of the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union for 70 years - and yet, after two or three generations of suppression and brainwashing of schoolchildren that ``religion is the opium of the masses`` after which religion should have been a distant memory of the Czarist days, as soon as the Soviet State ended lo and behold: the priests were back in their finery and the faithful were back doing what the faithful are supposed to do.

Having said the above, I understand your frustration with the mess that has been made in the name of religion in India and Pakistan. I think the problem is caused because, while religious freedom is permitted, the Second Law of Freedom that I mention in my post #113 below (namely, that ``your freedom of action ends where my nose begins``) is not applied. Under the second law, while everyone can practice religion, they can only do it as long as they dont bother other people - I oppose the muslim practice of ``azaan`` since it is clearly violating the right of other people to peace and quiet. Similarly, any mixing of religion in the workings of the state represent a violation of freedom. In Pakistan of course things are much worse than India in this respect, but India is no bed of roses either from everything I have read.

dullabhatti #116 if i had a penny for every time I have been called a hypocrite by some Indian poster (without the caller burdening himself with cutting and pasting anything I wrote as proof of what he was talking about), I would be a millionaire. So thank you for adding to my riches. Furthermore, if i had a penny for everytime i have been ridiculed as a muslim by indian posters for following the ``religion of the Arabs``, I would be a billionaire.

Harimau #114 It would indeed be sad to see the rich folk heritage disappearing from various regional languages as cultural change takes place. On the other hand, culture can be preserved - and the common language of english has made it possible for you to share with non-tamil speakers the beauty of this verse which would otherwise have been available only to tamil speakers. Just as the english translation of Rumi and other eastern writers have given them a far broader audience today than they would ever have had - since the persian of Rumi`s time is not understood even by the persians themselves. In any case one can no more stop people from coming up with a common language when they merge into a broader community (and due to globalization we are all basically becoming a single community in many ways) than one can stop the sea tides from rising.

Dost ji, those were harsh words by me indeed...sorry for any uncomfort. frankly one corner of my heart loves both countries immensely...or atleast Punjabs or ex-punjabs parts of both...I might dislike few but I don`t hate any other ethnic group..but at the same time I don`t feel obligated to shower my love left and right in the neighborhood to prove any kind of patriotism...why limit any such brotherhood to biharis or tamils only?..mere swedish te philphino gwanDiaN ne ki wighaReya ay? The problem I have is with hypocrite arguments like the one by tahmad below, put forward by some people... So one gets more freedom by giving up ones language and culture....I bet one can get many times more freedom by giving up ones religion and country too. tahmad sahib when are you giving up your Pakistani patriotism and Araby religion to get the freedom you preach to others? because when you decide to do that let us know and I will promise not to raise a voice for Punjabi again. urdu te hindi de halway manday Punjabi, Sindhi, Tamil, Gujrati di kabar te kiyoN pakkan? if you think these religional languages are a barrier in some kind of Indian or Pakistani brotherhoods, let us give up all native languages, let all suffer equally,and adopt Spanish instead. But why my language has to die at the expense of some else`s in a country that I call my own and in the freedom that I fought for?

tahmed:
The biggest constraint on individual freedom is relgions, especially established religions (including Hinduism and Sikhism) which imprison the minds of their followers through indoctrination that starts at birth. These established religions have the arrogance to deride newcomers as `cults`, forgetting that their own religions would have been called cults too if their founders today claimed that they parted a sea, were born without a father or kept hearing self-serving messges from God for 23 years. The true freedom would be to challenge these notions.
So, if you want true freedom, BAN RELIGIONS, not cultures.

Ref tahmed32 #113

I don`t know about Punjabi or Gujarati but if Tamil dies down we will forever lose poems like this written some 1500 years ago:

``Ko-keri-ko, crowed the rooster
My poor heart missed a beat
That the sword of morning came down
To cut me off from my lover
Entwined in my arms.``

dullabhatti #111 I think that if Tamil, Punjabi, Gujrati, Sindhi etc. die, then in fact that gives birth to true freedom for the individual. He or she is no longer a Punjabi or a Tamils or whatever, but an INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEING. He or she is no longer burdened by the baggage of ``culture`` (which is basically habits inherited from earlier generations), expected to live in certain ways, but is truly free to live as he or she pleases. No longer is he or she expected to marry a fellow panjabi, for example, of the same religion and/or caste and/or social status. No longer is he expected to follow the profession of his elders, as has been the case for thousands of years. No longer is he expected to hold certain views. I could go on. These are the various types of shackles that bind people, far more so in India and Pakistan than in the US or UK for example.

The only thing limiting the freedom of each individual is the nose of other people (``Your freedom ends where my nose begins``, as Justice Oliver Holmes said). This is true freedom. Everything else is oppression of one kind or another. The British Raj never touched the lives of the vast majority of people, nor the Mughal Raj before that. The oppression of social expectations, of language that exposed them to the thinking of the small community around them, of cultural practices - these were the true masters to which people of the subcontinent have been slaves for thousands of years.

dullabhatti#111:
Veeji, ina ghussa kyon?
If tamil or panjabi disappears (and there is no sign that it will) it will not be the govt.`s doing, at least in India. I think the founding fathers of India did well in recognizing all major languages as official (look at the Indian rupee notes). As far as panjabi is concerned, can you recall any period in history (including the sikh rule!) when panjabi literature, music, etc. flourished as much as it does now? Believe me, this would not have been possible without official patronage. Gosh, I get panjabi programs even in Ottawa all day Saturday and even on Sunday and I can even order a 24-hour panjabi TV channel from India for less than $10 a month. If some panjabis in Delhi have stopped speaking panjabi at home, they should blame themselves and not the govt. Even in Delhi, some official street signs are in panjabi. I think we panjabis should do more to develop pride in our language than blaming others. Our attitude to our language is best shown in that popular panjabi song ``Pancho Rama`` (which was also shown in Monsoon Wedding). The song is about this snobby groom`s party assessing potential brides. The song switches from Panjabi to Hindi/Urdu when the groom`s party says,
Hum to nahin karenge
hum to babu log hain
hum to genterman hain!
I think we panjabis have to get rid of this notion of not speaking panjabi because we are `genterman`.

Demise of the languages, that are spoken by millions for hundreds and in some cases thousands of years like Tamil, Punjabi, Gujrati, Sindhi etc, if happens is a genocide..pure and simple genocide of language and culture...sadly happening after all these subjects of a thousand years of slavery attained FREEDOM. Fuc* you India, Fuc* you Pakistan and Fuc* you Freedom. and fuc* you queen of England for throwing us in the dog house.

Ref dost-mittar #101

[Why blame second rate politicians? How about the ``visionary architect`` of India who sent his grandchildren to Doon school instead of letting them rub shoulders with the children of janata-janardhan in the schools run by his socialist government?]

It is well-known that J. Nehru was the last Englishman to rule India. He wasn`t going around naming his kid Hindi Rani or, God forbid, Queen Victoria!

Despite all the attempts at imposing Tamil on Tamilians (as opposed to the Central Government`s imposition of Hindi on Tamilians and the rest of the country), Unesco has placed Tamil among the languages that are in danger of disappearing within another century. This is a language that is spoken in Sri Lanka (for close to a thousand years), Malaysia and Singapore in addition to India.

Oh well, the glory of the Tamil language will live on in names like Tamil Arasan, Tamil Mani, Tamilkudimagan, much to the delight of Soysauce.

dost mittar #107 I did see Monsoon Wedding to check out the Delhi branch of the Panjabi family, and was glad to see that the lively spirit that characterizes any full-blooded panjabi guy or gal was alive and well. The movie was in english though, the language in which money talks. :-)

The panjabi language does seem to be developing some roots in the expat community thanks to daler mehndi.

tahmed32:
I partly agree with you regarding the uncertain future of panjabi -as well as other languages- in the diaspora. One can maintain one`s language beyond one or two generations in another country only by adopting a colonial attitude towards the `inferior` natives, like the Indians did in East Africa or the British did in India or the muslims in India did by creating/adopting a new language.
But panjabi as a language is not going to die if it dies in the diaspora (even here it is difficult to predict a certain death because of the emergence of the new multicultural global `pind`). The attitude of muslim panjabis in Pakistan and hindu panjabis in India is however not because of their hatred for their panjabi roots, of which most of them are quite proud, but because of a misplaced notion that their language is paindoo. This attitude persist despites the phenomenal success of the panjabi pop music, so you have panjabi kids talking in hindi/urdu and then bursting into a `shaawa-shaawa` song. This attitude was well displayed in the movie monsoon wedding. (you should start seeing some good movies, btw!!:-) )

Ref Romantic-Air #91

[I don`t know about everyone else, but I plan to start taking Chinese language lessons soon. And I seriously think, Pakistan should start pushing Chinese as a foreign language, to fill the large amount of jobs that will open up in the booming Chinese in 25 years.]

I really like your love for the Chinese and the Chinese language. It is so romantic and we all know romance is so hard to find on Chowk unless you count Ali1`s trolling for boyfriends as romance.

But seriously, do you believe that there is going to be a labor shortage in China in the future? Any economic data to support it? Or just wishful thinking?

Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi are not substitutes for English. English is a must for diaspora and also provides an edge in the job market in subcontinent. It is a question of bilingual kids or multilingual at some later stage in life. Desi children not knwoing Urdu, Hindi or Panjabi is not a loss in the job market but a disppointment for those who wish this most important part of heritage to pass on to the next generation.

The desi diasporta in Surinam, Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago and Fiji has practically lost all language heritage, just as African slaves to Americas, but African American problems are least due to losing heritage and desi diaspora is doing fine with losing heritage, becoming elites and primeministers except in Fiji recently. German diaspora across the globe does better than their neighbors, in Paraguay, Brazil, Russia but they have also lost language heritage.

However, most of the heritage losses of desis and others occured before modern means of communication, travel and staying in touch in many different ways than in the past when migration meant abandoning past. Yet heritage should never become an additional burden and should not be detrimental as Islamic heritage in the west is currently perceived with some reality. The clash of Islamic heritage and the western culture is a great example and lesson for all those who have some degree of desire of preserving heritage in the next and future generations. I have seen both type of kids from Pakistani and Indian families in USA. some parent want not a shadow of past/ heritage to be transferred and some want too much. One thing they all must consider and that is: parents should never play a conscious or unconscious role of unevening the level playing field for their kids in practical life. But they do it all the time, here as well as in subcontinent for their own ego, sensitivites and insecurities.