Monsoon Days

Aata hai yaad mujh ko bachpan ka voh zamana.
About 40 years ago in India this is kind of experiences I had which I miss at my age living in canada.
No body can react those memories od childhood and youth.
It has been ages ago that I have seen lightening and heard thunder as I did in Panjab.
I miss clear sky and glittering stars at night.Artificial light anf artificial life has taken away the nature from our lives.

#27 by tahmed32 on July 7, 2003 9:20pm PT
``Just check with us panjabis when you karachiwallas are struggling with urdu. ``
#135 by RZaidi on July 22, 2003 1:20pm PT
``And is it such a big crime to speak a decent sophisticated language? And since when did showing respect to someone become a sign of whimpy-ness??``

``Urdu is the language of Pakistan, not Punjabi or Pushto or any other dialect.``

First of all being from Karachi does not necessarily mean Urdu speaking. Secondly Urdu was the language of the army and not the elite of India.

Language is just a means of communication. It is culture that counts. Differences between people are primarily on the basis of ehnicity, dress and eating habits. Language and religion of course are factors, with religion probably coming in last.

Urdu was never the language of Pakistan but was spoken in areas that are part of India today, whereas Punjabi and Pushto both are. These languages are not dialects but are languages though without their own script.

#121 by roohi on July 16, 2003 8:05am PT

``BTW - Is it right to say in Pakistan literary Urdu is the language mostly of the elite and educated ... in North India Hindi dialects are both the mother tongue of the masses and refined and embellished are the language of the educated too. ``

I would agree with tahmed 32 that Urdu is not the literary language or the language of the elite in Paksitan. The elitist language is English and if you look at any person outside of a few cities in Sindh, who may be categorised as partof the ``elite`` , then the language would be their respective mother tongues. Urdu typicaly is spoke by the lower middle and the low income groups in some cities.

OK! I read almost all of the replies to this article and its amazing that people have managed to completely forget the article and itself and talk about everything and anything but the monsoon that Bina`s talking about!

#27 by tahmed32 on July 7, 2003 9:20pm PT
``Just check with us panjabis when you karachiwallas are struggling with urdu. ``

Since when did Punjabis become the masters of Urdu? as far as my knowledge goes, Punjabis speak Punjabi because they live in Punjab! whereas proper ``bhagaar``- ``kaanch`` type Urdu is the language spoken mostly by people who migrated from India..
I do however have a problem with Punjabis always thinking they`re somehow better than urdu-speaking people or Karachiwallas in particular. I think Punjabi is just a twisted completely slang version of Urdu, which is a mix of at least 2 very beautiful languages...Arabic and Farsi or Persian (just a little clarification for the tahmed32`s of the world)

As far as the word ``bijli`` is concerned...in proper Urdu the word bijli means electricity NOT lightening as in thunder and lightening or ``garaj-chamak``

garaj = thunder
chamak = lightening

I really wish people would just shut up about things that they have no knowledge of!


#41 by hamidm2 on July 8, 2003 8:29am PT

``punjabis, on both sides of the border, should secede and create a homeland where we can be free from the tyranny of the urdu speakers;``

that`s exactly why Pakistan has failed to rise above the ``developing country`` status, because of the Punjabis and the Pathans and the God-knows-what-nots of Pakistan, who dont seem to be satisfied with the fact that they have a country they can call their own. A country that was made so they could lead proper Muslim lives. Why cant we just call ourselves Muslims and learn to live together?

And is it such a big crime to speak a decent sophisticated language? And since when did showing respect to someone become a sign of whimpy-ness??Are we so cruel because we`re urdu-speaking? Urdu is the language of Pakistan, not Punjabi or Pushto or any other dialect. And I`ve never come across a single urdu-speaking person who actually makes fun of the Punjabi accent. I`ve always been made fun of because I DONT have a punjabi accent and because I cant speak a word of Punjabi. Shouldnt I be calling Punjabis tyrants then?

And the article by Bina, its a simple article talking about something extremely beautiful, why do we have to ruin it by bringing differences of culture between it?

I think its a great article, esp for someone like me who lives in Dubai where the weather is almost always dry and humid, for us rain is truly a blessing and reading this article made me want to go to karachi asap!

Way To Go Bina!

Ref sameerJB #102

{harimau:
There is always an earlier stage when words for a new discipline can be added and as the discipline grows, the words in that language grow. That is why, Spanish, German and French have equivalent words or spellings for equivalent technical terms. Unfortunately when scientific disciplines were developing in Europe, University were being open, our guys were doing Sufi poetry, Urdu poetry, buliding Taj Mahal, chasing Anarkali [on Lahore-Islamabad motorway], killing their brothers to get to the throne and in a constant state of war/ empire building with no interest in science.}

Unfortunately, you have bought into history, even scientific history, as told by Western historians.

While inhabitants of South Asia and their invaders from Central Asia may not have arranged known elements on a periodic table, they did know of and make use of metals such as copper, tin, lead, iron, silver and gold. They also seem to have known of the value of a particular crystalline form of carbon: diamonds.

To this day, there is no explanation of who forged the 1600-year old, 7-meter tall, 6-tonne iron pillar that stands outside the Qutb Minar and has stood there for 1600 years.

How many people know that the Potala in Lhasa at 17 stories remained the tallest building in the world until the early years of the 20th century?

hunney khatam...main te ajay boleya ee nai.:-)

tahmed: I consider you amongst the few relatively sober people on chowk...I am sorry to say that the argument that I called hypocrite happened to come from you..this time....but it is very common. Some people have rationalized in their minds that aborting of `other` languages and cultures and religions to bring other people into `our` language, culture and religion is good for `other` people because `our` religion, culture and language is superior to `other`s. sorry..my language, culture is as important to me as others` is to others. Religions, I am finding, are equally bad. As a Pakistani you can`t fathom the thought of India swallowing Pakistan to bring everyone together for everyone`s better future. I totally understand it. then why should Sindhi be swallowed by Punjabi or Punjabi by Urdu or Tamil by Hindi etc etc? If it is based on economy or the need in the market then everyone should be forced to learn English and color their hairs blonde because we know that English speaking persons are richer and blondes are more free than people with say black hairs.

dost-mittar #129 And on that happy note, I think we can end our discussion on this particular board. Thanks for an interesting exchange.

AlephNull #130 So you are basically pointing to the similarities between ideologies, whether they be Communist or Islamic. I agree with that, nor is that inconsistent by any means with the extract from my post that you pasted.

I would add that ideological ways of thinking does not stop with Communism or Islam... But from your post it seems you dont see it that way, and that is fine.

Tahmed #117 writes:

{{ Even if one agreed in principal that banning religion is a good idea (I shall discuss this further a bit below), the fact is that this has been tried as part of the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union for 70 years - and yet, after two or three generations of suppression and brainwashing of schoolchildren that ``religion is the opium of the masses`` after which religion should have been a distant memory of the Czarist days, as soon as the Soviet State ended lo and behold: the priests were back in their finery and the faithful were back doing what the faithful are supposed to do.}}

As usual you fail to see the obvious.

Communism displays all the characteristics – in belief and practice - of a revealed prophetic millennial religion. Its closest parallel is Islam.

It is a dogmatic system of belief which pivots on intangible notions, inaccessible to logic and empirical investigation, eventually declared to be beyond argument of any kind (and thus a matter of faith). It typically claimed its belief system to be final, absolute, complete, perfect, based in reason, and inevitably destined to be the common universal creed of all mankind. It became the common duty of communists to hasten the approach of the millennium through actions ranging from proselytization, to political intrigue and armed struggle, to outright seizure of power.

Communism has its ponderous tomes of Holy Scripture and its pantheon (panhagion?) of sainted prophets. The exact set of canonical works varies from one sect of communists to the other, but all would include the works of Hazrat Karl Marx, Rasul of the Proletariat. The precise set of recognized prophets varies as well, but Hazrat Marx inevitably has pride of place as the visionary founding prophet, with Hazrat Engels and Hazrat Lenin also occupying places of honour.

Each sect elevates one or more of its Great Thinkers and Leaders to the Communist pantheon as subsidiary Nabis while denouncing the leading lights of other sects as impostor Nabis – witness the fate of schismatic Communists from Trotsky to Lin Piao.

Like some other well-known revealed religions, Communism had its designated repositories of evil and targeted hate objects that had to be either converted to the True Faith or liquidated. These foes of the Path of Righteousness included at different times the bourgeois, kulaks, imperialists and deviationists from the straight path.

Further like common revealed religions, Communism has its promised heaven – to be attained when the dictatorship of the proletariat is established and the state withers away – some time in the indefinite future, rather than after death. This ludicrous pie-in-the sky promise is just as hollow as its predecessors in Christianity and Islam.

The evolution of Communist sects as a social phenomenon, in regions where it was a minority creed without effective political power, displayed strong analogies with the typical evolution of sects in dogmatic religions, with its eternal doctrinal squabbles, futile polemical theological debates, lurid accusations of heresy, and constant schism and fission and subdivision.

In countries – such as Russia and China - where some Communist sect or other managed to capture temporal power, they rapidly moved to make their control absolute, and then set up a repressive theocratic totalitarian police state where their particular variant of Communist doctrine became the official state religion. All other religions and sects were denounced as ill-founded or rejectionist or heretical and their adherents could expect to face increasing degrees of social disability, expropriation of property, physical violence, etc. At this point, ‘philosophical’, i.e. doctrinal divergences, were punished through the expulsion or liquidation of dissenters. Satirical attacks on the Supreme Leader and the True Faith were verboten and were punished with death. The risible notion of blasphemy was as strongly disapproved and punished under Communism as under Islam (and mediaeval European Christianity). There are strong parallels between the typical theocratic Communist police state and the theocratic Medinan state set up by Muhammad.

---

So seen in the proper cynical light, Soviet Communism was simply another revealed religion like Islam, moving as Islam typically has to stamp out all competition from religions native to the soil of the region. The brainwashing of schoolchildren that `religion is the opium of the masses` exactly parallels the indoctrination given to young Muslims that most other systems of belief are kufr and jahalat and the like. Given that the Russian Orthodox faith was thoroughly imbricated in a thousand years of Russian history and culture, it is no surprise that that faith would recrudesce at least partially in the vacuum left by the defeat and discrediting of Communism.

tahmed32:
Rest assured, I love Urdu as much as you do, if not more, and speak it with a Dehlvi , not panjabi accent :-).

roohi #121 In response to your question, I dont think it is correct to say that urdu is the language of the elite in Pakistan. Some urdu lovers in karachi no doubt wish it was, but the fact is that english is the language in which all serious business (professional education, government business, modern private sector business) is conducted. And in discussions, panjabis speak either in panjabi or in urdu (the latter they use generally if the group includes non-panjabi speakers). Pathans (including their elite) are much more uptight about their regional language (pushto or pukhto as some of them call it), and will almost invariably switch to pushto if two pathans are talking. I am not sure about sindhis, but the few i have known spoke urdu and/or english.

I think things are a bit different for indians who seem to not only use english for business, education, government but also to communicate with people who dont speak their regional language. I would be interested in any thoughts you may have on this.

dost mittar #125 I agree with most of what you are saying. One minor puzzlement (to use the term of the King of Siam): you seem very touchy about other urdu and arabic. I used panjabi merely as an example. But since you seem to assume that this means i care less for panjabi or ANY OTHER language, let me state what I think should have been obvious: Urdu and arabic are as much destined for extinction as panjabi or tamil or ANY OTHER language (other than the one universal language that has emerged, namely english).

Hope this sets to rest any suspicions you may have of favoritism towards any particular language.

roohi:
You are right about the tragic sacrifice of magdhi, bhojpuri, brajbhasha, etc. The big fish have eaten the small fish. You are right too about khari boli being the base of Hindi/Urdu/Hindustani. I think these languages have become the victim of the religious politics of language. Starting with the 20th century, hindus started identifying with hindi and muslims with urdu, so the other languages had to be sacrificed to the great religious divide. Urdu is now suffering in India because of that continuing association.
Panjabi too would have gone the same way except for the same politics of religion. Fortunately for panjabi, sikhs identified with gurmukhi, the script in which Guru Granth Saheb is written, which in turn is identified with panjabi. This is ironic in a way because most of the gurbani actually is not in panjabi but in the languages you mention, though written in gurmukhi script. As an example, ardaas has a more or less similar status for sikhs that aarti has for hindus. And the starting lines of the ardaas are actually in bhojpuri, as follows:
aagya bhai akaal kee
tabhi chalaayo panth
sab sikhan ko hukam hai
guru maanyo granth

tahmed32:
`` While I do indeed have great love for pakistan, and i do indeed consider islam to be a very positive religion if properly understood, this by no means implies that it is at the expense of disrespect for any other culture``
By comparing islam with ``other cultures``, you seem to imply that islam is not just a faith but also a culture. I agree with you here though it contradicts your general position that isalm is nothing more than the essence of quran which is the same as any other religion.

Coming to the main point of discussion. Culture and language are inseparable. Language is the umbilical cord which cannot be separated from a culture. You dont have to go farther than North America to see the evidence of that. The majority of people in New Hampshire, Louisiana and a large number of Americans in many other states have French roots and many still carry their French names. However, there is hardly any trace of French culture left in them (unless you think cajun food as french!) as they have lost their language. On the other hand, French Canadians in Quebec have maintained a very vibrant french culture there because they have been able to zealously retain their langugage even at the cost of curbing some individual liberties. I do agree with them that some individual freedoms have to be sacrificed for the rights of ``collectivity``.
So, when you say that you respect other cultures and at the same time talk indifferently about the death of panjabi/tamil etc., you are really not showing respect for other cultures. Now, if you had given as an example, the death of arabic, urdu, etc. , the reaction would have been different. But when you offer the others` oxes to be gored instead of your own, you can expect them to protest.
[I know you are panjabi, too, but your religious and national identities seem to be stronger than your linguistic/cultural identity].

Linguistic map of South Asia at:

http://www.himalmag.com/2003/april/map_of_the_month.htm

Dost etc.
Sadly Hindi can die too at the hands of Hindi ... all the different bhashas of northern india from Khari Boli, Bhojpuri, Awadhi, Braj Bhasha, Maithali, Maghadhi ... have been lost in the standard sankritised hindi taught today. Khari Boli of Delhi area is the base language that today’s Hindi/Urdu started from ... but consider the beauty of the Braj of Kabir and Tulsi and the Awadhi of Surdas. Maithali (Northern Bihar) even had/has it`s own grammer and script. Of course probably every major Indian language has a large % of Persian Arabic loan words.

BTW - Is it right to say in Pakistan literary Urdu is the language mostly of the elite and educated ... in North India Hindi dialects are both the mother tongue of the masses and refined and embellished are the language of the educated too.

dost mittar #119 (I may have accidentally re-sent my post #117 so please ignore that with my apologies).
So we agree on the freedom to practice religion, AS LONG AS that freedom respects the right of other people to peace and quiet. I personally consider all religions to be indistinguishable in the essence from one another anyway, this being a combination of a desire for learning more and certain broad universal values (like individual freedom as we have just discussed). One can call it islam, or hinduism, or christianity, or agnosticism. It does not matter.

On what is lost in the translation: I think we make too much of what is lost in the translation - after all, the finest works of literature and art transcend boundries of space and time anyway. There is certainly a certain beauty to verses in the original language, that cannot be replicated in the translation. Here we have a trade-off: since everyone cannot learn all languages, one can either share the finest works of one`s culture with others by translating it into english (the common language around the world today), or else leave it for only the subset of the human population that understands the regional language. Anyway, I have (like others) read many works from other languages and cultures that have been translated into english, and enjoyed everyone of them.

dost mittar #118 While I do indeed have great love for pakistan, and i do indeed consider islam to be a very positive religion if properly understood, this by no means implies that it is at the expense of disrespect for any other culture. I have therefore always called for respect for other religions, including hinduism, in a hundred different ways on chowk. I have expressed appreciation for the rich culture of India.

It is true that I dont tolerate bs (paki bashing OR hindu bashing for that matter) and have sometimes gotten into some nasty exchanges with such posters. This does not change my basic views, although they do provide a dose of realism - neither all indians nor all pakistans, even after education, are free from the primitive aspects of their culture (and ridiculing other people`s religions is certainly the mark of a primitive environment the individual grew up in).

So could you please explain exactly what the problem is that you say you and dullabhatti have with what i write?? Is it that you dont really believe what I have written about respect for all cultures in the first para. above. Or are my conclusions in the second para. in anyway contradictory to what I have written in the first para.?? I am really curious to understand.

tahmed32:
...and I object to azaan only if the muezzin is `besuraa`:-).

tahmed32#117
I am not for banning religion; that post was only in retaliation to your remark about the killing of panjabi/tamil.
And you are right, even seventy years of official atheism could not kick the soviet citizen`s addiction to their `opium`. I have always maintained that religion fulfils an important need of many people to have a sense of certainty in their lives and hereafter and may add to their sense of fulfilment.
But you are wrong about the ability of translation. Could you tell me of a single translated ghazal of Ghalib which had captured even a fraction of the beauty of the original? Or of Shakespeare`s Hindustani translations achieving the same effect? I suspect that the same is true of the translations of Rumi or Omar Khayyam. The wealth of languages and cultures, even religious cultures, has been accumulated over millenia and it would be criminal of us to lose this wealth in the name of globalism.

dullabhatti#116:
Some people love their religion more than their country or culture, some love their countries more than their religion or culture, and some love their culture more than their religion or their countries. All are okay in my book as long as they do not want to score points at the cost of others. This is where you and I have a bit of problem with what tahmed says.

dost mittar #115 Freedom to practice one`s religion is in fact as much the right of any individual as is the freedom to not practice any religion. So, I would say that banning religion in fact means curbing individual freedom. An agnostic has as much of a right to be an agnostic as a hindu or muslim has to his beliefs.
Even if one agreed in principal that banning religion is a good idea (I shall discuss this further a bit below), the fact is that this has been tried as part of the totalitarian state of the Soviet Union for 70 years - and yet, after two or three generations of suppression and brainwashing of schoolchildren that ``religion is the opium of the masses`` after which religion should have been a distant memory of the Czarist days, as soon as the Soviet State ended lo and behold: the priests were back in their finery and the faithful were back doing what the faithful are supposed to do.

Having said the above, I understand your frustration with the mess that has been made in the name of religion in India and Pakistan. I think the problem is caused because, while religious freedom is permitted, the Second Law of Freedom that I mention in my post #113 below (namely, that ``your freedom of action ends where my nose begins``) is not applied. Under the second law, while everyone can practice religion, they can only do it as long as they dont bother other people - I oppose the muslim practice of ``azaan`` since it is clearly violating the right of other people to peace and quiet. Similarly, any mixing of religion in the workings of the state represent a violation of freedom. In Pakistan of course things are much worse than India in this respect, but India is no bed of roses either from everything I have read.

dullabhatti #116 if i had a penny for every time I have been called a hypocrite by some Indian poster (without the caller burdening himself with cutting and pasting anything I wrote as proof of what he was talking about), I would be a millionaire. So thank you for adding to my riches. Furthermore, if i had a penny for everytime i have been ridiculed as a muslim by indian posters for following the ``religion of the Arabs``, I would be a billionaire.

Harimau #114 It would indeed be sad to see the rich folk heritage disappearing from various regional languages as cultural change takes place. On the other hand, culture can be preserved - and the common language of english has made it possible for you to share with non-tamil speakers the beauty of this verse which would otherwise have been available only to tamil speakers. Just as the english translation of Rumi and other eastern writers have given them a far broader audience today than they would ever have had - since the persian of Rumi`s time is not understood even by the persians themselves. In any case one can no more stop people from coming up with a common language when they merge into a broader community (and due to globalization we are all basically becoming a single community in many ways) than one can stop the sea tides from rising.

Dost ji, those were harsh words by me indeed...sorry for any uncomfort. frankly one corner of my heart loves both countries immensely...or atleast Punjabs or ex-punjabs parts of both...I might dislike few but I don`t hate any other ethnic group..but at the same time I don`t feel obligated to shower my love left and right in the neighborhood to prove any kind of patriotism...why limit any such brotherhood to biharis or tamils only?..mere swedish te philphino gwanDiaN ne ki wighaReya ay? The problem I have is with hypocrite arguments like the one by tahmad below, put forward by some people... So one gets more freedom by giving up ones language and culture....I bet one can get many times more freedom by giving up ones religion and country too. tahmad sahib when are you giving up your Pakistani patriotism and Araby religion to get the freedom you preach to others? because when you decide to do that let us know and I will promise not to raise a voice for Punjabi again. urdu te hindi de halway manday Punjabi, Sindhi, Tamil, Gujrati di kabar te kiyoN pakkan? if you think these religional languages are a barrier in some kind of Indian or Pakistani brotherhoods, let us give up all native languages, let all suffer equally,and adopt Spanish instead. But why my language has to die at the expense of some else`s in a country that I call my own and in the freedom that I fought for?

tahmed:
The biggest constraint on individual freedom is relgions, especially established religions (including Hinduism and Sikhism) which imprison the minds of their followers through indoctrination that starts at birth. These established religions have the arrogance to deride newcomers as `cults`, forgetting that their own religions would have been called cults too if their founders today claimed that they parted a sea, were born without a father or kept hearing self-serving messges from God for 23 years. The true freedom would be to challenge these notions.
So, if you want true freedom, BAN RELIGIONS, not cultures.

Ref tahmed32 #113

I don`t know about Punjabi or Gujarati but if Tamil dies down we will forever lose poems like this written some 1500 years ago:

``Ko-keri-ko, crowed the rooster
My poor heart missed a beat
That the sword of morning came down
To cut me off from my lover
Entwined in my arms.``

dullabhatti #111 I think that if Tamil, Punjabi, Gujrati, Sindhi etc. die, then in fact that gives birth to true freedom for the individual. He or she is no longer a Punjabi or a Tamils or whatever, but an INDIVIDUAL HUMAN BEING. He or she is no longer burdened by the baggage of ``culture`` (which is basically habits inherited from earlier generations), expected to live in certain ways, but is truly free to live as he or she pleases. No longer is he or she expected to marry a fellow panjabi, for example, of the same religion and/or caste and/or social status. No longer is he expected to follow the profession of his elders, as has been the case for thousands of years. No longer is he expected to hold certain views. I could go on. These are the various types of shackles that bind people, far more so in India and Pakistan than in the US or UK for example.

The only thing limiting the freedom of each individual is the nose of other people (``Your freedom ends where my nose begins``, as Justice Oliver Holmes said). This is true freedom. Everything else is oppression of one kind or another. The British Raj never touched the lives of the vast majority of people, nor the Mughal Raj before that. The oppression of social expectations, of language that exposed them to the thinking of the small community around them, of cultural practices - these were the true masters to which people of the subcontinent have been slaves for thousands of years.

dullabhatti#111:
Veeji, ina ghussa kyon?
If tamil or panjabi disappears (and there is no sign that it will) it will not be the govt.`s doing, at least in India. I think the founding fathers of India did well in recognizing all major languages as official (look at the Indian rupee notes). As far as panjabi is concerned, can you recall any period in history (including the sikh rule!) when panjabi literature, music, etc. flourished as much as it does now? Believe me, this would not have been possible without official patronage. Gosh, I get panjabi programs even in Ottawa all day Saturday and even on Sunday and I can even order a 24-hour panjabi TV channel from India for less than $10 a month. If some panjabis in Delhi have stopped speaking panjabi at home, they should blame themselves and not the govt. Even in Delhi, some official street signs are in panjabi. I think we panjabis should do more to develop pride in our language than blaming others. Our attitude to our language is best shown in that popular panjabi song ``Pancho Rama`` (which was also shown in Monsoon Wedding). The song is about this snobby groom`s party assessing potential brides. The song switches from Panjabi to Hindi/Urdu when the groom`s party says,
Hum to nahin karenge
hum to babu log hain
hum to genterman hain!
I think we panjabis have to get rid of this notion of not speaking panjabi because we are `genterman`.

Demise of the languages, that are spoken by millions for hundreds and in some cases thousands of years like Tamil, Punjabi, Gujrati, Sindhi etc, if happens is a genocide..pure and simple genocide of language and culture...sadly happening after all these subjects of a thousand years of slavery attained FREEDOM. Fuc* you India, Fuc* you Pakistan and Fuc* you Freedom. and fuc* you queen of England for throwing us in the dog house.

Ref dost-mittar #101

[Why blame second rate politicians? How about the ``visionary architect`` of India who sent his grandchildren to Doon school instead of letting them rub shoulders with the children of janata-janardhan in the schools run by his socialist government?]

It is well-known that J. Nehru was the last Englishman to rule India. He wasn`t going around naming his kid Hindi Rani or, God forbid, Queen Victoria!

Despite all the attempts at imposing Tamil on Tamilians (as opposed to the Central Government`s imposition of Hindi on Tamilians and the rest of the country), Unesco has placed Tamil among the languages that are in danger of disappearing within another century. This is a language that is spoken in Sri Lanka (for close to a thousand years), Malaysia and Singapore in addition to India.

Oh well, the glory of the Tamil language will live on in names like Tamil Arasan, Tamil Mani, Tamilkudimagan, much to the delight of Soysauce.

dost mittar #107 I did see Monsoon Wedding to check out the Delhi branch of the Panjabi family, and was glad to see that the lively spirit that characterizes any full-blooded panjabi guy or gal was alive and well. The movie was in english though, the language in which money talks. :-)

The panjabi language does seem to be developing some roots in the expat community thanks to daler mehndi.

tahmed32:
I partly agree with you regarding the uncertain future of panjabi -as well as other languages- in the diaspora. One can maintain one`s language beyond one or two generations in another country only by adopting a colonial attitude towards the `inferior` natives, like the Indians did in East Africa or the British did in India or the muslims in India did by creating/adopting a new language.
But panjabi as a language is not going to die if it dies in the diaspora (even here it is difficult to predict a certain death because of the emergence of the new multicultural global `pind`). The attitude of muslim panjabis in Pakistan and hindu panjabis in India is however not because of their hatred for their panjabi roots, of which most of them are quite proud, but because of a misplaced notion that their language is paindoo. This attitude persist despites the phenomenal success of the panjabi pop music, so you have panjabi kids talking in hindi/urdu and then bursting into a `shaawa-shaawa` song. This attitude was well displayed in the movie monsoon wedding. (you should start seeing some good movies, btw!!:-) )

Ref Romantic-Air #91

[I don`t know about everyone else, but I plan to start taking Chinese language lessons soon. And I seriously think, Pakistan should start pushing Chinese as a foreign language, to fill the large amount of jobs that will open up in the booming Chinese in 25 years.]

I really like your love for the Chinese and the Chinese language. It is so romantic and we all know romance is so hard to find on Chowk unless you count Ali1`s trolling for boyfriends as romance.

But seriously, do you believe that there is going to be a labor shortage in China in the future? Any economic data to support it? Or just wishful thinking?

Hindi, Urdu, Punjabi are not substitutes for English. English is a must for diaspora and also provides an edge in the job market in subcontinent. It is a question of bilingual kids or multilingual at some later stage in life. Desi children not knwoing Urdu, Hindi or Panjabi is not a loss in the job market but a disppointment for those who wish this most important part of heritage to pass on to the next generation.

The desi diasporta in Surinam, Guyana, Trinidad and Tobago and Fiji has practically lost all language heritage, just as African slaves to Americas, but African American problems are least due to losing heritage and desi diaspora is doing fine with losing heritage, becoming elites and primeministers except in Fiji recently. German diaspora across the globe does better than their neighbors, in Paraguay, Brazil, Russia but they have also lost language heritage.

However, most of the heritage losses of desis and others occured before modern means of communication, travel and staying in touch in many different ways than in the past when migration meant abandoning past. Yet heritage should never become an additional burden and should not be detrimental as Islamic heritage in the west is currently perceived with some reality. The clash of Islamic heritage and the western culture is a great example and lesson for all those who have some degree of desire of preserving heritage in the next and future generations. I have seen both type of kids from Pakistani and Indian families in USA. some parent want not a shadow of past/ heritage to be transferred and some want too much. One thing they all must consider and that is: parents should never play a conscious or unconscious role of unevening the level playing field for their kids in practical life. But they do it all the time, here as well as in subcontinent for their own ego, sensitivites and insecurities.

Ally #103 I seem to have disappointed my fine fellow panjabis on both sides of the border (first dost mittar, now you) by saying that panjabi is a dying tongue (like all other tongues).
Let me present my case is this way: As expats, I ask you two to look at panjabi children born in the west - do you know of even ONE panjabi child (born of pakistani or indian parents, it does not matter) born in the US who is more comfortable in panjabi than in English?? Just ONE child?? Is there any reason to think that what is happening to the expats today will not happen to the inpaks (to use Mr. Madani`s unique contribution to the english language) tomorrow??

I rest my case. :-)

I agree that it seems incredible that a language spoken by 150 million people (I assume this is a good figure Ally came up with) is doomed to extinction in just a few more generations.

dost mittar #100 I must admit I am more of an armchair theorist on this, and not one to start a campaign to teach the Quran in english. The closest I came was when I volunteered once as a sunday school teacher for small kids (which included my own). First thing I did, I went through the Kalima in English (``There is no God but God, and Mohammed is his prophet``), and we spent three or four Sundays discussing the implications of this one sentence only.

As for expressing oneself in one`s mother language, I think you do a pretty good job of expressing yourself in English. :-) You and I could probably have a great conversation in panjabi on chowk e.g. = but we dont, since that basically means cutting every nonpanjabi speaker out. Sometimes temporal starts off in urdu and then i respond in urdu, but that too is unfair to non-urdu speakers who are therefore deprived of out incredible wit and wisdom. ;-) So, lets have a universal language. If you want to learn gurmukhi, that is fine. But it would be a matter of personal interest, not to promote better communication with other souls on this planet (including the unfortunate souls who were born non-Panjabi).

tahmed #93,

i dont think its fair for you to say that Punjabi is a dying language, many more Punjabi ppl, are now turning back to their native tongue though not for anything professional, there has been a renewed interest in the language from Punjabi ppl, and more so from the ppl abroad. I am taking time out to read in Shahmukhi, and train my eye to read it without confusing it with Urdu, also i would like to learn Gurmukhi, and there is so much help on the internet and things for those with an interest.

Eventually the borders will ease, and Punjabi ppl will communicate with each other, they will do it, in Punjabi. There will eventually end up being more interaction and development, between Chandigarh and Lahore. Punjabi has a sophisticated vocabulary, its been forgotten, but now ppl are reviving it, there are efforts under way to add more vocabulary to it. As Punjabi ppl progress and prosper, so will their language. So i wouldn`t write the native language of about 150 million people worldwide off the books just yet.

harimou:
``Oh, the same thing happens amongst Sangilikkaruppans and Sudalaimuthus of Tamil Nadu in India where the politicians send their children to English-medium schools while opening Tamil-medium schools for the hewers of wood and drawers of water. `
Why blame second rate politicians? How about the ``visionary architect`` of India who sent his grandchildren to Doon school instead of letting them rub shoulders with the children of janata-janardhan in the schools run by his socialist government?

harimau:
There is always an earlier stage when words for a new discipline can be added and as the discipline grows, the words in that language grow. That is why, Spanish, German and French have equivalent words or spellings for equivalent technical terms. Unfortunately when scientific disciplines were developing in Europe, University were being open, our guys were doing Sufi poetry, Urdu poetry, buliding Taj Mahal, chasing Anarkali [on Lahore-Islamabad motorway], killing their brothers to get to the throne and in a constant state of war/ empire building with no interest in science. Now it is too late to create Kendriya Hindi Sansthan and try to unify northern Indian languages and make it scientific using Sanskrit.

There is not a single element in the periodic table that owes it to Indian, Chinese, Arabs, Muslims or Turkish empires. The disciplines require systematic and constant approaches which were not there. The scholarships in certain areas owed it to few scholars and with the death of the scholar or his disciples, the area of specialty suffered.

Hindi, Urdu, Panjabi are good for communication, producing movies, songs and literature and culture. These are the languages of about one tenth of humanity. These languages are here to stay but for the above mentioned purposes. But we do have misplaced and obsessive infatualtion with our languages and the rivalries between them is additional headache. Two northeners would be fighting over it a third northerner would be inventing scientific equivalents words. All three are wasting time. North has to learn many thing from south India and Language development within rational boundries is one of them. Actually ``What North India should be taught by (or should learn from) South India`` is a good topic worthy of several articles at chowk. Perhaps you or somebody from south should take this challenge.

I disagree with Romair that no multi-ethnic country should have an absolute majority of a single group. He forget to mention Britain and Switzerland surviving without any problem while Russia and Yugoslavia did not. Similarly the rise of China or India in the future would not invent wheels to Mandrinize or Hindiaze all scientific languages. They will actully find way to spell the already developed words in Mandarin, same as we have haspatal and iskool for hospital and school respectively or French, German or Spanish do with new scientific words.

tahmed#93:
My reference to arabic and quran was in the context of language rather than religion. So we can then expect you to lead a camaign against the teaching of arabic in the madrassas of the U.S:-). And you didn`t say that you would like to replace urdu with english in Pakistani schools and colleges. There is nothing natural about the decay of Panjabi in Pakistan or among hindus in India. These tendencies are a hangover from the pre-partition notions of hindi-hindu-hindustan and muslim-urdu-pakistan. I am only now learning gurmukhi script so that I can enjoy some of the new panjabi literature. I believe people can express themselves best in their mothertongue. There is something pathetic when one hears a panjabi saying things like `meray godday mein dard ho rahi hai!``.

romair:
I agree with some of the things you say. It was not long ago that french was considered to be the language of international communication (hence the term lingua franca?) . You are right about the rush to learn chinese. I remember that after the oil crisis of 1970s, there was a rush to learn arabic. The domination of english also may not continue for ever, though it is likely to remain so during my lifetime.
But I disagree wrt hindi/urdu. And this is because of its status in India. Hindi is NOT the lingua franca of India, english is and is likely to remain so. Protagonists of hindi fought and lost the battle to make hindi the official language of India in the 1960s. Almost all office work in India in the govt and private offices takes place in english or in the regional languages in the states. This is unlikely to change.

`Horde`` originated from Turko-Mongol word “Ordu” (as in the hordes of Mongols descending from the Central Asian Steppes), which means army. There is a city by the name of Ordu in the northern Turkey, near the Black Sea. Even the military museum in Istanbul, closer to Taksim Square, if I remember correctly, is called Ordu museum.

Urdu evolved as a lingua franca of Delhi’s armies between 1200 and 1600. The language evolved as a necessity to allow troops from diverse background, speaking Indian languages, Persian, Turkish and Arabic, could communicate with each other effectively. Thus its vocabulary and composition. The language became sophisticated and gentrified when Delhi-based bureaucrats gradually adopted it.

Romair: #91 The goras may be going into extinction due to low birth rates and intermarriages, but what used to be called the third world is not that far behind: Both China and India have undergone reductions in birth rates over the past two decades that even the best and the brightest did not dare to predict back in the 1960`s and 1970`s. The same is happening whereever urbanization takes place, the link between low birth rates and urbanization being a phenomenon that has been well understood and recorded by demographers starting from the 19th century.

Also, reality is more complicated and such linear thinking is no predictor of the future: in addition to falling birth rates we must recognize other dimensions of change (revolutionary advances in genetics, growth of a common culture, the increasing irrelevance of race resulting from intermarriages) that are now taking place. While no one can predict the future, one thing we can predict I think for sure is: it WONT be a linear projection of today`s world.

Thus, for example: english is no longer the first language of the english only. For example, in the US, the largest ethnic group today is of German descent - and virtually all of them think of english as their first language. The US (and Canada too I think) is expected to continue a significant population growth for the rest of this century due to continued immigration - and US born children of virtually all immigrants - hispanic or asian -speak english fluently (and in most cases are more comfortable in it than the language of their parents).

dost mittar #90 In answer to your question, I think the only language one should read the Quran in is a language which one understands. To read it in Arabic is as absurd as to would be to read the Faust in the original German without knowing a word of German.

I have always maintained on chowk that the spirit of the Quran is opposite to the violent and chauvinistic spirit of the muslim extremists, and that is all the more reason for muslims trying to understand Islam to read the Quran with understanding. So I am surprised that you should even feel need to ask me this question.

As for panjabi being a dying language, I think I am merely stating the obvious. As a fellow panjabi, I enjoy speaking the language as much as you do. But please dont shoot the messenger. :-)

And btw, if the rest of humanity can live a perfectly fulfilling life without knowing a word of panjabi, I think so will future generations of panjabis. After all, all cultures change anyway - the Lahore panjabi culture today for example is vastly different from the village panjabi culture of the 19th century, and indeed (for the middle and upper middle class at least) vastly similar to urban culture in any other city in the world.

Ref Mullah32 #71

[.... although Lahore drivers still seem to drive as if the family honor is ruined unless they chase a couple of pedestrians off the streets and unless they cut across the guy in front.]

You must admit that that is a vast improvement over believing that their family honor is ruined unless they kill their daughters. ;-)

PS. That smiley is my usual pathetic attempt at sick humor.

PPS. My PS spares the resident Mullah from pointing it out.

Ref sameerJB #77

[There is no necessity for 130 million people anywhere in the world to be forced to adopt overtly as in Pakistan and covertly as in India to a language of 450 million people. Neither of these languages are scientific or technical to provide an edge for any speaker in market place. These languages are not going to invent 35-40 million new words just to name all the chemicals in the world. This is just as example.]

There are some countries where they do go to the trouble of inventing new words. An example is Bahasa Malaysia/Bahasa Indonesia. Some 15 years back, the governments of Malaysia and Indonesia added 200K new words to their language to be able to teach scientific subjects in the native languages. This gave rise to words such as `sains` for `science`, `teknologi` for `technology`, etc. The confusion is compunded when the Malay word for water is `air` (pronounced a-yer) and because they abandoned their Jawi script 70+ years ago and adopted the Roman script.

The Northies also attempted to introduce thousands of new scientific terms into Hindi. With the result that a state like Bihar that produced Rajendra Prasad today produces Lalloo Prasad and a state like Uttar Pradesh that produced Jawaharlal Nehru today produces Mayawati. Meanwhile, Telugu and Tamil seem to be the most common languages among expatriate software engineers in the US, and not Java or HTML.

#Ref tahmed32 #83

[I was surprised a few years ago when, visiting Bangladesh, my Bengladeshi colleage spoke bitterly about politicans talking about making Bangla the national language and medium of instruction in schools while sending their own kids to english medium schools and sending them to the US or UK at the first opportunity.]

Oh, the same thing happens amongst Sangilikkaruppans and Sudalaimuthus of Tamil Nadu in India where the politicians send their children to English-medium schools while opening Tamil-medium schools for the hewers of wood and drawers of water.

At least, the Bengalis have the sense not to name their kids `Bangla Babu` as opposed to the `Tamil Kings` that you see in Tamil Nadu.

#Ref UmerMurtaza #82

[I`m not trying to be rude but who are you?]

Just someone whose respect for the Punjabi language increased dramatically when I read somewhere that 85% of Punjabi is high-velocity abuse and the other 15% is low-velocity abuse!

#Ref Saminasha #82

[Interestingly enough, my Indian friends make very little distinction between Urdu and Hindi...which makes Hindi a vehicle weighted with the same freight as Urdu, nahin?]

Don`t even get me started on Hindi. My native language is Tamil.

PS. My cousins and nephews who grew up in Delhi speak fluent Hindi/Hindustani/Urdu. I ask them to translate Hindi movies for me but even they stumble over Bombay Hindi which is something else!

PPS. I do watch Hindi movies on the flights to India (they have subtitles) because they are so unintentionally funny.

tahmad/dost-mittar #90: ``In future, everyone will speak the same language. And that language will be english. ``

I was sitting in a restaurant and heard an interesting conversation, the other day. Two Canadians were discussing the USA`s war on Iraq. And one guy said, ``I don`t know why all these people are fighting over these things, eventually the whole world will be Chinese and Indian, and we (goras) will be extinct.``

I think English was definitely the dominanting language of the 20th century and continues to be the dominating language of the 21st. But I think, it has reached its peak, or is close to its peak as the percentage-wise dominant language in the world. It was dominant, not due to any in-built features in the language that made it easy to understand. It was dominant due to two English speaking countries that ruled the world in the 20th century, i.e. England and USA.

These countries will remain powerful, however, other areas of the world are going to become powerful also, thereby, introducing some new languages into international lingua franca. China`s economy may be the size of the USA`s in 25 years. This will make Chinese a far more understood language than it is now. People in other countries will have to learn Chinese to get a share of this market, just like people have to know English to get to the US market.

Similarly South Asia will not always remain as poor as it is, while its population is going to keep growing. It will not dominate USA, but it will grab a much greater chunk of the international economic market, thereby bringing South Asian languages like Hindi/Urdu into the international mainstream.

The whole continent of South America is lying dormant. Someday it will be a major player in the economic arena, and this will lead to a rise of Spanish and Portugese again.

The Arab speaking countries are not going to remain (rich and) backwards forever. As they advance, Arabic will gain a more solid footing in the world and will add its economic value to its religious value.

While third world countries are progressing, they need to go out of their way to learn the dominate language(s) of the world. However, once they have reached a certain level of confidence and progress, they tend to start looking at their own roots, and want to shed, ``outside`` influences. They actually start to go towards their own historic culture. I don`t know if this is good or bad, but this is what human nature seems to do. Apparently, now Sottish and Irish Gaelic language teaching seems to be political issues in Ireland and Scotland (not sure about this). Much of this, may have to do with the new found confidence in Ireland due to its IT boom. The furthur third world countries progress (specially those with huge populations like China, India, Brazil and Pakistan), the more other people will be forced to start learning these countries` languages, making these languages stronger in the world.

There are about 1 billion speakers each, of the following three languages in the world: Mandarin, Englilsh, Hindi/Urdu (other languages in the Indic set). There are around 500 million speakers of Spanish/Portugese. http://www.linguasphere.org/languageNJ.html#most%20spoken.

However, there are only 375 million native speakers of English, while there are 885 million native speakers of Manadarin alone. And I believe English is the official mother tongue of only a few large countries and a bunch of tiny ones. While Mandarin is the official language of well over a billion people. Hindi/Urdu is the official language of over a billion people also.

The number of Mandarin, Hindi/Urdu and Spanish native speakers in the world is increasing, while the native English speakers is close to constant or even decreasing. In fact, of the total English speakers, 750 million actually speak it as a second language. As soon, as the countries speaking Mandarin, Hindi/Urdu and Spanish start making their mark in the world, the influence of these languages is bound to increase (there own populations are large enough to ensure this). This will result in English actually losing its hold as the dominant language and not increasing it. One can even see this within the USA, with Spanish becoming more and more popular in the Southwestern states. Many signs are in Spanish, etc.

I think the world will be speaking English as the only dominant language for a while (maybe 50 years). Meanwhile, Mandarin, Spanish and Hindu/Urdu will start making their marks as the international lingua franca. In the following phase, the world will be English, Spanish/Portugese (due to very sharpe rise of Spanish speaking population within the USA and rise of South America) and of course Mandarin (due to China) speaking. Then Hindi/Urdu is going to make a mark. And eventually at some stage, as the whole world progresses to US levels (who knows when - maybe in 100 to 200 years), Mandarin and Hindi/Urdu will dominate (just due to population alone).

So anyone looking out for a Hindi/Urdu or other Indian dialect is actually doing us all a favor. Professionals who can speak English and Chinese are right now worth their weight in gold in the international business market. Someday individuals who can speak English, Chinese and Hindi/Urdu will be worth their weight in diamonds and uranium.

So contrary to the initial point about English in previous replies, anyone who can, ``just`` speak English, will probably be, according to my opinion, left completely behind starting in from the middle of the 21st century by those who can speak the above three languages (plus Spanish as an added bonus).

Most of us desis already know two of the above three. I don`t know about everyone else, but I plan to start taking Chinese language lessons soon. And I seriously think, Pakistan should start pushing Chinese as a foreign language, to fill the large amount of jobs that will open up in the booming Chinese in 25 years.

It is very difficult to consolidate the costs of multiple languages with their benefits. It adds culture, but can and does potentially divide people. This is a historic fact. Countries with one language tend to be more cohesive than countries with multiple languages. However, forcing a language down everyone`s throat is not a solution.

Language differences are a results of hundreds of years of cultural evolution, and are thus an indicator of differences amongst communities. These differences could be due to lack of interaction because of geographical boundaries, different religions, kingdoms etc. It is only natural that words will enter a language due to the above factor. Urdu has so many Turkish words in it. Urdu now has English words in it. There is nothing wrong with that. It is neither here nor there.

If Arabic words appear in Punjabi and people accept it, so what. That is how languages evolve in the first place.

What is more important is the equal distribution of resources and wealth amongst people in different areas. I think one of the biggest problems facing Pakistan is the size of the Punjab province, not the decline or rise of the Punjabi language. Punjab needs to be divided into smaller provinces, so that other provinces can get a fair deal. After the break up of USSR and Yugoslavia (not 100% sure), I think Pakistan is the only country left in the world where one province/state has a larger population than the rest of the provinces combined. We have seen what happened to the USSR and Yugoslavia. I think the same thing could happen to Pakistan, due to the dominance of Punjab in every field due to its large size.

Sooner or later, the dialects of Urdu and Punjabi and Sindhi etc., will evolve in different directions between Punjabis and Sindhis and Lucknowis in Pakistan and India. This is a natural process, when people speaking the same language end up in different countries. I am not sure how and why that can or should be stopped. It should neither be shoved down people`s throats nor discouraged. I think Pakistan (and India) would be better off and more united within their countries, if their different languages evolved towards one common language within each country. I certainly wouldn`t have any problem if Urdu and English was the only languages spoken in Pakistan. Even though neither is my mother tongue. Or English and Punajabi, or English and Pushto etc. Provided it was not done forcefully.

tahmed32:
`` From a practical perspective, a language is a merely a means of communication. Far too much has been made of the ``language issue`` over the past 50 years. In future, everyone will speak the same language. And that language will be english. ``
Would you say the same thing about arabic and the language of quran? Will you advocate the end of teaching arabic in the madrassas in the United States, if not in Pakistan and India? Would you also start a campaign on chowk that Pakistani schools and offices should stop using urdu as a medium of instrunction and work and use only english for this purpose? Or is this only a convenient tool to deny panjabi its rightful place in the province where 75% of panjabis live?

It did not end in 1971. Guess what language is Nazim from, the newly introduced word for mayor by Mutt and Naqvi, as if people were unhappy with the word mayor of the city. Nazim is not even used much in Urdu except for JI who calls their section incharge as nazim and nazim-e-aala etc. There is actually a commission under the chirmanship of a professor in Panjab University, Lahore, working to remove and add words fit with Pakistan ideology.....

tahmed32 #86.

As I mentioned: ``21st February 1952 was the beginning of the end of Pakistan and Two Nation Theory.`` That was the day the seeds of Bangladesh were sown and we saw the outcome in 1971. During these two decades, we were also guilty of further alienating the majority of Pakistan, with our behaviour, with our power, with our supposedly superior culture and with our actions.

Rahe naam Allah ka.

Banjaara #85 I have driven by those monuments, but have not visited them. I also saw smaller monuments of a similar design (like an inverted U, with the top part bent 45 degrees) in a number of small towns in Bangladesh when I used to go there in 1996-99. I was surprised to learn that the monuments were for the language riots of the 1950`s, not victory monuments to 1971. Clearly, the language riots seem to have left a much deeper impression on the Bangla psyche than the events of 1971, contrary to common belief outside Bangladesh.

tahmed32# 83

21st February 1952 was the beginning of the end of Pakistan and Two Nation Theory. Five killed in police firing, three bystanders and two jute mill workers, none of the leaders was wounded or killed. The Bangladeshis pay homage to their language movement on 21st February known as `` Ekkuish February- Matro bhasha aandolun dibosh``. They raised a national monument at the site of the killings, which is located between the old campus of Dhaka University and Dhaka Medical College.It is the most visited spot in Bangladesh after the 1971 Martyrs Memorial in Sagar, 20 kilometer north-east of Dhaka.

jayjay #80

Excellent article by Safir Rammah. To a degree it absolves the urdu speaking people from the oft repeated charges that urdu has been imposed on the Punjabis by the Urdu speaking clique and puts the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Punjabis themselves. Sometime ago someone mentioned on Chowk that not a single newspaper in Punjabi is published, whereas there are so many in Urdu out of Lahore alone. Perhaps the person was unaware of the fact that most of the owners, printers and publishers of the urdu language newspapers are Punjabi themselves, amongst whom the names of Majeed Nizami and Mir Khalil-ur-Rahman are at the top of the heap. Both of whom are long dead but their publications are still holding aloft the banner of urdu journalism in Punjab.

Harimauji,

Urdu comes from the Turkish word meaning ``encampment``- and considering the diversity of its speakers, its not such a bad description. Interestingly enough, my Indian friends make very little distinction between Urdu and Hindi...which makes Hindi a vehicle weighted with the same freight as Urdu, nahin?

sameerJB #77 Historically, language has periodically become an issue in pakistan only when some ideologue tried to impose urdu as a ``kaumi zabaan``. This happened of course in bengal, where the language riots of 1953 created a bitterness in Bengal that soured relations ever since all the way to 1971. It happened again periodically after that, particularly in Sindh. Today, it is not just expats who appreciate the value of english (lacking that, they would have no jobs except the lowest paying ones), but also ordinary people in Pakistan.

I was surprised a few years ago when, visiting Bangladesh, my Bengladeshi colleage spoke bitterly about politicans talking about making Bangla the national language and medium of instruction in schools while sending their own kids to english medium schools and sending them to the US or UK at the first opportunity.

re: 79

I`m not trying to be rude but who are you?

Umer M

http://www.apnaorg.com/articles/safir/psn.html

Status of Punjabi in Pakistan

Safir Rammah

Punjabi is the mother tongue of the majority of people in Pakistan. According to 1981 census, the last census for which the figures are available, Punjabi (including Saraiki, Hindko and other variations) is the “commonly spoken in the household” language for 60.43 per cent Pakistanis, followed by Pushto for 13.14 per cent, Sindhi for 11.77 per cent, Urdu for 7.60 per cent and Baluchi for 3.02 per cent. Yet, Punjabi has no official status either in Pakistan or in West Punjab. The medium of teaching in government and private schools in West Punjab is Urdu and, to a lesser extent, English. There is not a single Punjabi medium school in Pakistan, as compared to 36,750 Sindhi medium schools in Sindh and 10,731 Pushto medium schools in the NWFP, per a study in 2001. Except for a very small number of writers and activists, Punjabis are illiterate in their own language – they can neither read nor write Punjabi. The rich tradition of Punjabi literature, going back to the 12th century AD when Baba Farid composed his poetry in a highly developed and sophisticated Punjabi language, has been forgotten. Among the educated classes of Punjabis, instead of pride and affection, contempt and shame for their culture and language is commonly observed.

A closer study of this unique social phenomena of systematic and deliberate denial of their own ethnic identity by West Punjabis, as highlighted by their rejection of Punjabi language, provides many insights into the dynamics of search for an identity by various ethnic and religious groups in the subcontinent during and after the British colonial period and the way power structure has evolved in Pakistan.

The Lack of British Patronization: Prior to the annexation of Punjab by the British in 1849, Punjabi language had developed on the same course followed by most other regional languages in India. Throughout the period of Muslim dominance of India, Persian was the official language of Delhi durbar for conducting the official business until it was officially replaced by English in 1837. The language policies of British Government provided the catalyst for a number of local languages to flourish and develop into their modern and standardized forms. Prior to the British rule, a large number of local schools were functioning in the Punjab. They can be classified as madrassas (for Arabic and Islamic education), maktabs (for Persian education), Gurmukhi schools (for Punjabi language in Gurmukhi script and Sikh religious studies) and patshalas (Sanskrit schools). In all of these schools, Punjabi was the medium of teaching even though the main purpose was to teach other languages and religious subjects. For a number of years after the British conquest of the Punjab, official circulars and court orders were published in Punjabi. The subject of adopting Urdu or Punjabi as the official vernacular and medium of education in government schools was widely debated among the British officers. A number of them supported Urdu for various reasons, including their fear of resurgence of Sikhs if Punjabi was officially promoted. Most of the low level functionaries in the British governments bureaucracy in the Punjab had come from Urdu speaking areas. They also supported Urdu. Eventually, the British government adopted Urdu for Punjab’s schools and lower courts. Although Punjabi continued to be taught in some private schools in Gurmukhi script to Sikh children, it only served the purpose of religious studies since government employments were available only in Urdu and English. Punjabi missed the boat of British patronization that was the key turning point in the development of other regional languages, e.g., Urdu, Hindi, Bengali, Sindhi, etc.

Urdu and the Muslim Identity: During the same time, the Hindi-Urdu controversy had erupted in Northern India where militant Hindu nationalists had begun to identify with Hindi language and the Muslims with Urdu. The fact that the Muslim League had made no inroads in Muslim majority provinces, including Punjab, until a couple of years before Partition and most of its following was in the provinces where Urdu was the spoken language of Muslim minority, helped Urdu to become the official language of Muslim League. The paramount political need to claim a separate identity of Indian Muslims overshadowed all regional sentiments among them. The educated classes of Punjabi Muslims accepted the hegemony of Urdu without any question. A review of Punjabi literature during the first half of 20th century reveals that while during the previous millennium, Muslim writers and poets had dominated Punjabi writings, they were conspicuously absent from the Punjabi literary scene after Urdu medium schools had replaced the traditional local schools in the Punjab. Corresponding to this change in the education system, the golden era of Punjabi Sufi poetry ended with Khwaja Ghulam Farid and Mian Muhammad at the beginning of the 20th century. Sikhs and Hindus wrote most of the Punjabi literature during this period. Punjabi Muslim intellectuals, writers and journalists abandoned their own language and willingly aligned themselves with Urdu as an indispensable requisite of their claim of a separate Muslim identity.

The Post-partition Crisis of Identity: After Partition, the language policy of Pakistan became a tool in the hands of military-civil bureaucracy axis that viewed the promotion of regional cultures and languages as a threat to their centralized power. Soon after independence, many regional movements, demanding a fair share of the state’s resources, had risen in East Bengal, Sindh, Baluchistan and the NWFP against the powerful center that was dominated by Punjabis. To counterbalance these demands for regional autonomy, efforts were made to develop a new national identity for all Pakistanis based on a Pakistani, and later Islamic, ideology and by making Urdu language as the symbol of this national identity. The predominance of Punjabis in civil bureaucracy and armed forces necessitated the complete submergence of Punjabi identity into an all- pervasive Pakistani identity as a political tool to legitimize the rejection of all other regional and linguistic identities. Punjabis were projected as the vanguards of Pakistan’s ideological frontiers. The Bengali Language movement of 1952 and the growing Bengali nationalistic tendencies that eventually led to the separation of Bangladesh from Pakistan, and the growth of regional movements in other provinces, further justified the educated Punjabis’ complacent attitude towards denial of their cultural and linguistic identity. The politics of language in the multi-language Pakistan is the politics of power struggle between a predominantly Punjabi center against various ethnic groups who demand their share in the national resources based on their regional nationalities. The self-serving opinion in the ruling classes of the Punjab since the Partition is to suspect all sentiments in favor of regional cultures in other provinces as anti-Pakistan. In their efforts to legitimize their hold on power and to eradicate the menace of provincialism, they lead by example by disregarding their own cultural and linguistic roots.

Language and Status in Pakistan: Language is an important symbol of status and class differentiation in Pakistan. English, as the official language of Pakistan, is the working language of all high-level government officials. Without knowing English, it is impossible to get lucrative jobs in the civil bureaucracy, military or in the private sector. English is the real language of power in Pakistan, just as it was during British colonial government and as Persian was before that. Learning Urdu is also a pre-requisite for entering the middle and low-level job market in Pakistan. The government runs a class-based discriminatory system of education by providing subsidized English education in state-run educational institutions for the children of power elite whose parents belong to armed forces and other government agencies, while mass education is provided in Urdu, and on a smaller scale, in Sindhi and Pushto. The fees for good private English schools are out of reach for common Pakistanis. On the one hand this creates a self-perpetuating elite class in Pakistan and on the other hand it makes various languages as class identifiers. English as a symbol of upper class, Urdu of middle and lower middle classes and Punjabi or other regional languages representing the uneducated peasantry and unskilled labor class. This provides a strong incentive for class conscious Punjabis to distance themselves from their language and common culture. The process of gentrification for an educated Punjabi begins with adopting Urdu for all formal usage and is further enhanced by learning to speak English.



In the villages, markets and majority of the rural and urban homes of West Punjab, the use of Punjabi language in conversations is as robust as ever. Most of the market-based popular media, outside the realm of state controlled radio and TV, is in Punjabi. Punjabis have become used to the contradiction of talking and listening in Punjabi while reading and writing in Urdu or English. Even Punjabis living in the Diaspora shift from a telephone conversation with their parents in Punjabi to writing them letters and cards in Urdu without noticing the obvious change of language from one form of communication to the other. The small cadre of Punjabi activists and writers, who have been struggling against all odds to promote Punjabi language, literature and culture, have so far generally based their case on emotional appeals to save their beloved mother tongue and culture. Unless they fully understand the underlying institutionalized and entrenched power politics of languages in Pakistan, they will have little hope to win many adherents to their worthy cause.

http://www.apnaorg.com/articles/aziznation.html

In Support of Punjabi Language

Aziz-ud-Din Ahmad

[The Nation, Lahore - May 24, 2001]


Punjabi language is the largest spoken but the most neglected of the languages in Pakistan. On account of its richness and its large stock of vocabulary, it could have been made an official language in Punjab`s mofussul offices, district courts and the provincial Assembly. This would have provided relief to local people who are not fluent in any other language and have to undergo the inconvenience inherent in expressing themselves through intermediaries and translators. As it is not a medium of instruction at the primary level, children are forced to cram lessons in Urdu or English without fully understanding these, which is harmful for learning. As a proficiency in the language is no qualification for a job, many students do not offer it as an elective subject at the college level. Neglecting one`s cultural heritage, of which the mother tongue is a vital component, deprives a community of a most valuable source of spiritual sustenance without which no creative activity can be undertaken whether in the realm of arts or sciences. Further, the neglect erodes the community`s confidence in its ability to perform. By bringing up a generation ignorant of its language a community gradually loses its roots.


Providing government patronage to Punjabi would have in no way harmed Urdu which enjoys the status of a national language and is bound to continue as a lingua franca throughout the country. It would have in fact enriched Urdu. Starting from the beginning of the 20th Century, writers belonging to Punjab have added vitality to the Urdu language by introducing in it local vocabulary and turns of speech. The Urdu purists who disapproved of the activity have in fact done disservice to it by standing in the way of its becoming a more widely understood language.


Fears are often expressed that the propagation of Punjabi might weaken the basis of the Pakistani nationhood. There are those who think that as the language is spoken in the Indian Punjab also, any emphasis on the commonality of language could give birth to the thinking that borders between the two countries are irrelevant. Anyone who has studied the question thoroughly will question the argument.


There is no denying the fact that the existence of a common language serves as a bond between Punjabis all over the world. It is not unnatural for them to spontaneously start communicating in their mother tongue when they meet anywhere even ignoring the presence of others who may not understand the language. This is by no means unusual and is in fact a universal phenomenon. The English speaking communities in Great Britain, North America and Australia have always felt nearer to one another than to the French, Germans or Italians. But this has not weakened their national loyalties or their international relations in the least. Similarly, despite all the sense of solidarity permeating the Arabic speaking communities, it has in no way affected their respective national bonds nor for that matter eliminated political rivalries between their governments. All the linguistic and cultural affinities between Bangladesh and West Bengal have similarly not stopped the former from continuously strengthening its national identity. In all these cases, people of each country have developed political, social and economic linkages over years which have in turn given birth to a sense of particularity. They have developed certain commonalties which they do not share with those speaking their language in other countries. This has strengthened the already existing national boundaries. Similarly, people belonging to various provinces in Pakistan have developed numerous social, political and economic linkages which act as a strong binding factor. Despite numerous complaints which occasionally surface and which are not unusual in federations, these linkages have become so strong that the provinces may not remain viable without one another.


In federations secessionist tendencies develop only in provinces which suffer from a sense of prolonged deprivation. This has never been the case with Punjab which is not only the biggest but also the most prosperous province in Pakistan. While all federal units have gained from the creation of the new country in various degrees, Punjab has been the greatest beneficiary among them. Its prosperity is dependent on its continuing to strengthen the federation. It receives from other provinces the bulk of the gas and electric power which keeps its factories running, sustains its agriculture and keeps its households warm in winter and cool in summer. Being a landlocked province, it depends on the port city of Karachi for imports and exports. Its business community has invested in all the provinces and its professionals and workers are spread all over the country. No reasonable man in Punjab belonging to any section of society would therefore go for a bigger Punjab at the cost of a united Pakistan which has given him all that he possesses. Opting for a bigger Punjab does not suit those living in East Punjab either, as they belong to the most developed and prosperous state of the Indian Union.


The desire on the part of the Punjabis to preserve and develop their language must not therefore be taken as something subversive. Punjab has a rich literary tradition and a vibrant language. The concern to transfer the heritage to the coming generations therefore is quite understandable. This brings together Punjabis not only from India and Pakistan but also from
other countries.


There are bound to be all types of elements in the ranks of those who want to preserve and popularize the Punjabi language. Here and there one may meet a racist dreaming about the revival of a Punjabi empire or somebody who would like India and Pakistan to become one again. But these are freaks who hope to turn back the irreversible wheels of history. The majority of the people involved in the holding of international Punjabi moots are those who believe in the sanctity of national borders, while they are at the same time genuinely concerned about the preservation of the Punjabi language and cultural heritage.

---

Ref UmerMurtaza #73

[In UK, every Punjabi speaks Punjabi, irrespective of your origin. Yes, Urdu is considered more sophisticated because well…er, it is more sophisticated.]

Urdu: Derived from `horde` meaning army camp. Urdu is considered the rough and ready language of the army camp, a language that used (and still uses) words from several languages mixed together so that the soldiers normally speaking different languages can have a common language at the camp.

This language is considered more sophisticated than Punjabi? I don`t know if that is an insult to Punjabi or a symptom of the great inferiority complex of the Urdu speakers.

interesting to note how lahoris (Lhauris)...and karachities get into these mindless debates...even on this chowk platform......its only but natural for anyone to grow up in his city or environment with a natrual inclination for it....whether the sleepy pace of lahore or the uptown buzz of karachi....to each his own :)

tahmed32:
Yes, too much has been made of the ``language issue`` over the past 50 years within the context of local politics for understandable reasons. The necessity must dictate the choice of language and not sponsorship of one at the expense of other for no reason. There is no necessity for 130 million people anywhere in the world to be forced to adopt overtly as in Pakistan and covertly as in India to a language of 450 million people. Neither of these languages are scientific or technical to provide an edge for any speaker in market place. These languages are not going to invent 35-40 million new words just to name all the chemicals in the world. This is just as example.

But when Panjabi samachar from All India Radio Panjabi service become unintelligible to P-Panjabis and Panjabi khabraN from Radio Pakistan, Lahore become incomprehensible to I-Panjabis, despite ethno-linguistic kinship, and yet no understanding problem talking face to face with each other in New york or any other place, makes one wonder the motives behind such a difference at states` controled media. One wonders why does Pakistani media loves to Persianize and Arabize Panjabi as much as possible and why does Kendria Hindi Sansthan, a Union Public Service Commission subsidiary, dictates ``appropriate`` Sanskrit or Hindi words to All India Radio Panjabi Samachar and culture ministry of I-Panjab.

So talking about the importance of English in diaspora and to some extent back home is one thing, discussing language politics back in subcontinent is altogether different matter . The national governments never stop interfering in the local issues that can be dealt naturally out of necessity as has been the case for millenia.

[The conclusion drawn in the following segment of this post is just my gut feelings. I have heard and read some rudimentary evidence like ISI and intelligence communities attending some of these conferences - particularly one held at Nankana Sahib under a bogus organization named Muslim-Sikh Student federation and attended by Khalistani Sikhs and large number of uniformed military officers