Justice for Half a Man

Urstruly, Sattar2,

Regarding Adam and Eve, my contetion is, that looking at it from logical point of view, Eve had to preceed Adam. That is because men have nipples and since nipples are intended for feeding the young, there is no reason for men having them unless they are left over from a previous model which was Eve.

Urstruly

You wrote a long post bringing in all kinds of science, but did not address the issue. It is really an issue for itjihad or logically reasoning.

I am also suprised that Naqsabandi with his deep knowledge of Islam, did not address this important issue. Nor did Romair, who prides himself as following Islam, because it makes sense to him, not because he was born in it.

Urstruly re: 104

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me at length.

You have taken great pains to explain what the Old and New Testament say about menstruation, but despite what the Bible says – Christians and Jews continue to interpret their religion for the present time. Your first point is that no sex is allowed during menstruation – Untrue! The Catholic Church since the 1950’s has taught its congregants to practice rhythm and part of that practice is to have sex during a woman’s period. Now, you can claim that this ruling contradicts the written word of the Bible but that is how it is. The rest of the points that you iterate have been debunked by the Whole Church and nobody practices them.

So my friend the same old argument is here to hound us. The case of a comparison between Islam on the one hand Christianity and Judaism on the other is invalid because the former can never be changed and its adherents want it to be practiced as written. The latter (Christianity and Judaism) interpret their dogma to their present circumstance and in light of the most current logic and reason. In addition to it there is no state in the Western World and for that matter the whole world, which can be called a Christian state. We have a Jewish state but it does not practice Jewish Law.

Let me clarify the term “unclean” – I was translating it for “Napaak” in other words not being “Ba-vazooh”. However much you may state that calling somebody Napaak or the specific Hadith that you quote #17 they are definitely not uplifting to our women folk.

Urstruly:

Thank you for pointing out the very obvious. Let`s not forget my system may be under the influence of its regular changes that may have blocked my senses from seeing the very obvious. Now, just one more time: Who and what were we discussing in this educational piece? (*?*)

Naqshbandi,

I’ll highlight some of the incorrect quotes you provided … to show why you mullahs cannot be trusted … and are twisting words of Quran to deceive others. Such is the sorry state of your ullema. You wrote:

“Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things. (The Holy Quran, Al-Ahzab 33:40)
note: LAST OF THE PROPHETS”

Wrong! Quran calls the dear Prophet … “Seal of Prophets” (khattam-un-nabiyeen). Inserting “Last of the prophets” here is clever invention of your mullahs … and not the verdict of Qruan.

“Seal of Prophets” means “the ultimate of all prophets”. Such usage of “seal” (khattam) is common in Arabic. I have with me copies of Arabic book covers and pages … where “khattam” is used to indicate a person’s highest status … in khattam-ul-mafasareen, khattam-ul-muhaqaqeen, khattam-ul-auliya, and khattam-ul-muhadaseen.

I hope the point is made.

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You quote incorrectly yet another time … when you quote the hadith: “I am the last in line of the prophets of God and my Masjid is the last Masjid.”

In the CORRECT hadith, the Prophet used the word “aakhir” for himself as well as for his mosque. You have conveniently translated “aakhir” as “last in the line” for prophet … and as “last” for his masjid.

Nice try … but no, thanks.

So … what does “aakhir” mean? It cannot mean “last in the line” … since many mosques have been built after the Prophet`s mosque. Right or wrong?

“Aakhir” here shows the ultimate status. It shows that Prophet’s mosque is the most blessed mosque, even though more mosques will be built. Similarly, Prophet’s status is most blessed, even though more prophets will follow. Such an interpretation of “aakhir” is supported from other references as well.

This hadith … if correctly understood, clearly supports continuation of prophethood. Doesn’t it?

Or are you now going to argue that the Prophet’s mosque was the “last in the line of the mosques”?

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Similarly, other ahadith you quoted … are also incorrect translations. Some may apply to the dear Prophet as the last law-bearing prophet … and that becomes clear in the full context of the ahadith. I think the point is made.

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Coming back of Quran …

- Verse 2:4 refers to believers … who believe in what was revealed to the dear Prophet and that which was revealed before … and have firm faith in hereafter (“aakhira”)

Hereafter (“aakhira”) does not refer only to the next life … but it means “what is to follow”. Emphasis on revelation in this verse makes it clear that more revelation will follow for the believers.

- Furthermore … verse 7:35 commands children of Adam to believe in prophets as they come. Suggesting end of prophethood will make this commandment lose its affect. Quran is the Book for all times … and this verse continues to apply even today.

- Furthermore, verse 4:69 mentions four spiritual levels for those who follow commandments of Allah and the dear Prophet. The stations mentioned attainable by the believers are those of … Prophets, Truthful, Martyrs, and Righteous.

(This is in response to supplication mentioned in Surah-e-Fahitha … where we ask Allah Almighty to bless us like he earlier blessed those who earned His pleasure. The verse in question, 4:69, explains these blessings)

- Furthermore, in salaat we Muslims (cough, cough) recite “durood sharif” … where we invoke Allah’s blessings on ummah of Mohammad, just as the ummah of Ibrahim was blessed. One of the highest blessing, if not THE highest blessing … bestowed on ummah of Ibrahim … was prophethood. Why would Allah hold back this blessing from ummah of Mohammad? … I fail to understand.

(I hope I have not spoiled your concentration in salaat when reciting surah-e-fatiha and durood shariff …)

- If prophethood had ended, there would have been very clear Quranic verses on this issue … to show a change in the age-old practice of Allah. And all you can find is one verse (33:40) … which when correctly QUOTED and understood, does not support your view.

- Urstruly seems to have realized futility of trying to prove end of prophethood from Quran. He now mainly sticks to ahadith for this purpose. He is now ahead of you on the learning curve. So when will you learn?

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More on traditions:

Numerous ahadith that support coming of future prophets have been ignored or misunderstood by ullema. Here’s are some samples:

- On the death of his infant son, Ibrahim, the dear Prophet said that … if Ibrahim had lived, he would have become a prophet.

This incident took place after approx. 5 years of the revelation of the “khattam-un-nabiyeen” verse.

- On one occasion the dear Prophet stated that … Abu-Bakr has the highest status among my ummah, except one who is a prophet.

- Bibi Ayesha is reported to have said … do call him (the dear Prophet) khattam-un-nabiyeen, but do not say that there will be no prophet after him.

- Numerous ahadith of the dear Prophet mention coming of Issa-ibne-Marriam. This is a metaphor … and shows coming of a prophet in the ummah of the dear Prophet, who will bear spiritual resemblance to Issa-ibne-Marriam. It is like … calling an intelligent person, Einstein … or calling a generous person, “Hatam Tai”. Nothing unusual here, if correctly understood.

These ahadith have been misunderstood to mean that Issa-ibne-Marriam will actually descend from the clouds after 2000 years of his death. This has led ullema to misinterpret Quran to mean Issa was taken up by Allah, alive, in flesh and blood.

If Issa-ibne-Marriam does descend from the skies after 2000 years of his death … he will have to very quickly learn and accept message of Quran … and accept prophethood of Prophet Mohammad. He will then try to sort out entire world’s problems … but Quran will continue to describe him as a prophet for the Islaelites!

This is just one of many contradictions you have on this issue.

Expecting Issa to descend from the skies … is like Jews … who were expecting descent of Elijah from the clouds, as mentioned in Jewish scriptures. When asked, Jesus stated that Yahya had come in the spirit of Elijah. Mystery solved!

So what’s the fuss now?

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Verdict of other scholars:

On the basis of correct understanding of Quran and ahdith, numerous scholars throughout the history of Islam have agreed on continuation of non-law bearing prophethood. Here’s the link to a dozen such references ... something your mullah does not want you to find out (watch out …. one of the quotes is from a Naqshbandi …).

http://www.alislam.org/library/ref/khatam.htm

I’ll pause here … and let you digest this.

Comments?

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Urstruly,

When I earlier mentioned verdict of Shah Waliulliah on this topic, you assumed Sattar is lying, and went on to invoke Allah’s curse on the liar. I decided not to proceed since you made such a big statement in vain. So be careful of what you say. Leave a door open … in case you need to backtrack.

sattar

you have admitted in your poast that mirza qadiani--may Allah`s curse be upon him for all eternity--claimed that he was a nabi. This is what makes him and anyone who believes in him as kafirs because the Qur`an clearly says:

Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things. (The Holy Quran, Al-Ahzab 33:40)

note: LAST OF THE PROPHETS.

The best tafsir of the Qur`an after the Quran itself is that of the Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam himself in the hadith. He (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) has clearly said:

``no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born`` (last sermon)

and also:


My position in relation to the prophets who came before me can be explained by the following example: A man erected a building and adorned this edifice with great beauty, but he left an empty niche, in the corner where just one brick was missing. People looked around the building and marveled at its beauty, but wondered why a brick was missing from that niche? I am like unto that one missing brick and I am the last in the line of the Prophets.
(Bukhari, Muslim,Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Tirmizi, Babu Khatimin-Nabiyyin, Musnad Abu Dawud Tayalisi)

and
The tribe of Israel was guided by prophets. When a prophet passed away, another prophet succeeded him. But no prophet will come after me; only caliphs will succeed me.
(Bukhari)

I am the last in line of the prophets of God and my Masjid is the last Masjid.
(Muslim)

and

The chain of Messengers and Prophets has come to an end. There shall be no Messenger nor Prophet after me.
(Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad, Anas bin Malik)

and

There will arise thirty impostors in my Ummah and each one of them will pronounce to the world that he is a prophet, but I am the last in the line of the Prophets of God and no Prophet will come after me.
(Abu Dawood, Tirmizi)

etc etc.

Thus we can see that Mirza Qadiani was one of these lying impostors which our Beloved Last Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam prophesised and told us about.

**

Indeed, Mirza Ghulam`s death was a sign of Allah(SWT)`s displeasure with him. He died from the disease he feared the most in a wretched condition and in utter disgrace, as he himself had stated:

``To turn out a liar in his own prophecy is biggest disgrace of disgraces.``
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 15, P. 382)


Let`s review the record of Mirza`s death as **recounted by his closest followers and actual witnesses to his death.**

Bashir Ahmad, the **son** of Mirza Ghulam, wrote in his biography:

``My mother informed me that `the first attack of looseness of bowels upon the Promised Messiah occurred when he was at his dining room table. Later, I started pressing his legs and he lay in comfort and slept and soon I too slept. After a short while, he again felt the call of nature and he used the bathroom a couple of times without awakening me, After this he felt very weak; he shook me up and laid down on my bed. I recommenced pressing. In a few minutes he told me to go to bed but I refused and continued to press. Once again he had an urge and, being too weak to go to the lavatory, I made arrangement for him close to the bed. He sat down and relieved himself. Next, he laid himself back on my bed and I started pressing again. His weakness grew intense; he had another motion, accompanied this time by vomiting. This paralyzed him so much that when trying to lay back on the bed, he fell on his back and hit his head on the bed post. His condition alarmed me...`.``
(Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 1, P. 11-12; Sirat-ul-Mehdi, P.109)
Mirza Ghulam`s father in law, Mir Nasir Nawab, recorded in his autobiography:

``The night his holiness fell ill, I was sleeping in my room. When his illness grew severe, they woke me up. I went over to his holiness and found him in great pain. He addressed me saying: `I have been stricken with cholera.` After this, he did not utter a single intelligible and coherent word till he died on Monday, after ten O`clock in the morning.``
(Hayat-i-Nasir, P. 14)
Mirza Ghulam used to say that cholera or plague is the sign of Allah(SWT)`s wrath on mankind for their wrong doing! It is fitting that his last words were the admission that he had been stricken with the disease he was so fearful of.

*************
An historical point too:

The first rightly guided Caliph, Hazrat Abu Bakr(RA), waged a war against the impostor prophet Musailma, the Liar, despite the fact that the Muslim state was still in its infancy and without the needed resources. As the result of this war, 22000 followers of Musailma were eliminated; however, approximately 1200 precious Muslim lives -- including almost 600 Huffaz, Qaris, distinguished soldiers of Badr, and close Companions of the Holy Prophet(SAW) -- were also lost.

To appreciate these figures and understand the determination of early Muslims to protect the religion of Allah(SWT) from possible corruption, we will need to remember that, during the entire life of Rasool Allah(SAW), only 259 Muslim lives were lost in all the battles against the Kuffar. The non-believers had themselves suffered only 759 casualties. In short, our first Caliph, in unison with all the Companions (Sahaba), decreed that the impostor Prophet and his followers should not be allowed to spread their evil. Indeed, none of the companions rested until the complete elimination of the self proclaimed prophet and his followers. This decision of Hazrat Abu Bakr(RA) was so highly regarded, endorsed and accepted by the companions, that Hazrat Umar(RA) proposed an exchange with Hazrat Abu Bakr(RA). He said:

``I will exchange all good deeds of my life time for your acts of one night and one day. One night from those three nights you spent with Rasool Allah(SAW) in the Cave of Thaur and one day from the days of battles against impostor prophets to guard the Finality of Muhammad(SAW).”

***

So there really is no doubt about the kufr of the QAdianis.

Finally this is what Qadianis REALLY think of anyone who doesn`t believe in their lying impostor ``prophet`` :

``All those Muslims who do not enter the fold of the Promised Messiah, whether or not they have heard of Messiah (Mirza Ghulam Qadiani) are considered Kafirs and are beyond the pale of Islam.``
(Aeena-e-Sadaqat, P. 9/35, By Bashir-uddin Mahmud)

**

Lanat Allah alal kaadhibeen.


QED

Urstruly … on a more serious note …

I read your attempts at explaining origins of life in the light of Quranic explanations (a post to Ajeet or someone). A lot has been misunderstood on this topic. One book I would recommend … if you can handle it … is written by late Mirza Tahir Ahmad … REVELATION, RATIONALITY, KNOWLEDGE, AND TRUTH.

The book dedicates approx. 200 pages to the topic of origins and evolution of life, in perspective of Quranic explanations and scientific evidence. The book explains the deeper meaning of Allah’s attribute of “Rabb” … as in Rabb-ul-Alameen … as One Who developed universe, including life, in stages.

It evaluates, in the light of Quran, various theories of life’s origins, and ideas and experiments conducted to simulate conditions necessary for creation of life. It covers works of Oparin & Haldene, Harold Urey, Miller, Dickerson, John Bernal, Cairns-Smith and more. It explores role of anoxic environment (lacking oxygen) in synthesis of organic material from inorganic material, role of ozone-free atmosphere which was crucial to allow cosmic radiations to pass, thus providing pre-biotic organisms with much needed energy (consistent with Quranic claims that … Allah created jinns from fire) … and fermentation of pre-biotic organisms in oceans over billions of years … forming the “primordial soup”.

The book then looks into following stages of development of life … and role of clay and photosynthesis … in the background of Quranic and scientific viewpoints. It reviews importance of dry stages for progression of life beyond the fermented oceans of pre-biotic organisms … role of hydrolysis that necessitated role of dry clay, formation of amino acids, proteins, and more.

The book also reviews natural selection /survival of the fittest theories … and addresses the issues raised by Richard Dawkins in “The Blind Watchmaker”. It argues against the Darwinian Evolution … as understood by the scientific community … and provides compelling arguments that life and its evolution cannot be explained on basis of statistics and “blind mechanisms” only … without the invisible hand of an Intelligent Creator … Who biased the odds just a tiny bit in favor of creation vs. destruction … every step of the way … in the very design of the universe.

According to the author, Darwinian Evolution or natural selection does explain general trends in growth and spread of certain species versus other species. But these mechanisms alone cannot explain the formation of life … and high level of complexity and variation it has achieved in a few billion years. If left merely to chance … or survival of the fittest … life could not have emerged … or progressed from pre-biotic organisms to its current, highly complex form in the given timeframe.

The book also addresses issues of a finite universe in light of laws of thermodynamics, Quran and cosmology and extraterrestrial life, and Quranic prophecies that seem to fit the description of nuclear holocaust, various plagues etc.

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Remaining 500-or-so pages in the book cover additional topics.

It gives accounts of various Islamic schools of thought, European Philosophies, impact of Muslim Spain on Renaissance, and works of Newton, Nietzsche, Hume, Kant, Berkeley, Hegel etc. It reviews the ideas of Marx, Lenin, Greek philosophies … and works of Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle.

The book also covers the origins and teachings of major world religions and the question of human suffering. It examines secular viewpoints … against the belief in One god held by the aborigines of Australia. It is worth noting that the aborigines had no contact with Eurasia until recently … and the ancient Australian civilizations date as far back as 35,000 years … much earlier than the emergence of the modern Adam and Eve.

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You mentioned your search for the answers. Here’s a book that provides some. You can probably get it from the local Ahmadi-Muslim chapter. If you want it, and can’t get it … let me know, and I can send one to you (of course, at no charge).

Tehsin Abbasi.

As explained in my article (in the section Gender Equality in West), when Europeans rejected and discarded their religion – mostly Christianity and to some extent Judaism – they had to come up with ideologically sound reasons. In the process they started to question the very basis of injunctions based on dogma and started examining them through logic and reason. We often forget that logic and reason are an evolutionary process; our most current logic and reason is only as evolved as present perception of reality gained through the level of knowledge that we have at that particular moment. But that is a separate discussion. The point that I am trying to make is that, those who are anti-Islam especially those who are of local variety ape the logic and reason of those who were/are anti-Christianity & anti-Judaism. They regurgitate the same accusations that are against C&J to criticize Islam without an objective evaluation and comparison of the three religions. These three religions are inherently different, but for those who are against religion - any religion - all religions are same, so why even bother. This inherently goes against their own ideals of scrutiny thru logic and reason, but then why care.

Your first point was in these words The core concept which is misogynic as you have identified is the fact that Islam considers menstruation – “unclean”. Once again you are looking at the issue of menstruation thru the anti-christian/judaism paradigm. Both in Christianity and in Judaism menstruation is considered ``unclean`` in the sense as you describe. In Judaism the phenomenon of menstruation termed as nidha in their religious jargon, has evolved into an elaborate body of law called ``Taharat Ha`mishpacha`` . The laws thus evolved can be summarized as follows:

1. During menstruation no sex is allowed.

2. Women are not allowed to touch their husbands

3. Even if a women touches the food of her husband the food becomes unclean and cannot be consumed.

4. Women cannot sleep with their husbands in the same beds.

5. These restrictions apply during the period of menstruation and then seven days that follow.

(This Jewish/Christian law is extensive. One injunction imposes excommunication by the society if a man even happens to see his women`s discharge, but we will discuss only the above five points).

As compared to these laws and restrictions Islam offers the following: (a point by point comparison)

1. Sex is restricted (makrooh) during menstruation but not forbidden (haram). There is a difference between the concepts of makrooh and haram in Islamic theological jargon where makrooh is considered a lesser degree of restriction as compared to complete forbiddance i.e. Haram. The sex during menstruation is hazardous from medical point of view for both men and women so this restriction makes sense. Whereas on the other hand now we have come to know through medical science that during menstruation cycle especially close to the end of the cycle there is a greater chance of conception to occur. I do not have enough medical knowledge to weigh in and compare the hazard associated with sex during that time and the benefit of conception. As the medical science will progress we will know more. It might be beneficial for the couples who cannot normally conceive. So in this sense the Islamic ``restriction`` rather than ``forbiddance`` makes sense.

2. There is no restriction on women as to whether they can touch their husbands or not. It has no significance and there are no edicts stipulating that.

3. All over the Muslim world, women prepare food for their husbands and family while they are menstruating.

4. All over the Muslim world women sleep with their husbands in the same bed while they are menstruating and if a couple temporarily separates themselves because of their libido, it is their personal affair and it has no relation to any Islamic edict because there ain`t none.

5. These restrictions, if they are considered restrictions, apply until the menstruation stops; there is no extended period.

What separates Islam with other two religions in this respect is also this:

1. The compulsory restriction of offering five prayers a day, which applies to both men and women, are relaxed on the woman – not because she has become unclean but it is because of the certain postures that one has to follow during offering namaz that are uncomfortable during menstruation.

2. A woman cannot touch Qura`n during menstruation, not because she has become unclean but the necessary condition before touching the Qura`n, for both men and women, is that a abulution (Waddhu) must be performed before doing so. Women are relaxed to offer prayer rituals including recitation of Qura`n and hence they are relaxed from performing abolution too. Medically, it also makes sense because for some women water aggravates the conditions associated with menstruation.

3. The blood of a nenstruating women is ``unclean`` even if you are an anti-religionist. I think you wouldn`t want to go for shopping while your dress is showing spots of blood from your or someone else`s menstruation. It is just common sense.

So Tehsin, you see that your pre-conceived notions to prove Islam as misogynist religion were wrong at least in this regard.

Your second point was `` Societies primitive or advanced would not function if women would take 3 to 10 days off every month.

Again you have borrowed this concept from Jewish law termed as mitzvoth where a women has to go through a ritual of ``renewal`` and ``re-jubilation`` during and after the menstruation period, (I think during menstruation this process is termed as ``mikkveh``) and women is kept off work during that period. Islam has no such restrictions to prevent women from working and go about their daily lives.

Your third point Your arguments about hormonal changes causing mood swings are exaggerated.

I don`t think so Tehsin. The syndrome related to menstruation is rapidly becoming the part of Western secular jurisprudence. In my article I have provided links to US, British, and Australian law where it is recognized as juristic procedure and cases are being handled in courts of law presenting this argument. Please keep in mind that there is fierce opposition from feminist groups against formulation of laws based on this syndrome. Recently one of US Supreme Court contender lost his potential seat due to the political reasons because he was opinionated in this respect and feminist groups fought tooth to nail to oppose his selection. But how long you can bury your head in sand and avoid common sense and material evidence. Like I said to an interlocutor below that it will only take a high profile case like that of OJ`s and it will become mainstream law. Women`s and men`s job, however, both in Islamic jurisprudence and secular jurisprudence, will be and should be that these potential laws are not and should not be used to discriminate women. Islamic jurisprudence has already a built in mechanism to save women from being discriminated against, as explained in the article, whereas, secular jurisprudence after groping in the dark for a while will ultimately come to the same conclusion.

ZahraJ

This article was not about women or men; it was about the two sides of the same coin. I hope you will appreciate the difference.

re:#85 by ali87
You have to be an idiot if you equate what was a politically motivated carnage in Gujarat with hinduism or how hindus feel towards muslims. Have you heard how a Paki kid got operated recently? Did you hear that more such are coming for medical treatment to India? I am sure you will find some reason to twist this fact too.
Surely, this must be some kind of ploy by evil banias:
http://sify.com/news/fullstory.php?id=13207533
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/181_318825,0008.htm
Of course, this has got to be a bania plot with brahminical blessing! How dare Indoos interfere in Afghanistan and build schools, hospitals. Don`t they know that in Islam, the only way of influencing others is by cutting their throat or killing oneself for Shahadat?

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2003-daily/13-07-2003/oped/o3.htm

``The Indian government is also funding a school food programme under which lunch is provided to the students. India is providing one million tonnes of wheat and a 100 million dollar grant for Afghanistan`s reconstruction. An additional 70 million dollars grant announced during Karzai`s second visit to India in March would be used to build a strategic highway connecting Dilaram in southwestern Afghanistan to Zahidan and Chahbahar on the Arabian Sea to give the landlocked nation access to maritime trade through Iran. A trade agreement signed during the same visit offers up to 100 per cent tariff concessions on 38 Afghan exports to India. The two countries were hoping that the agreement would boost trade, which shrank from 54.26 million dollars in 1999-2000 to 41.89 million dollars last year. India attributed the reduction in trade to Pakistan-inspired transit glitches.

It has also offered help to develop civil aviation, transport, industry, health facilities, educational institutions and agriculture. A satellite link between New Delhi and Kabul has been established and Indian movies are back in demand in urban centres. Some 500 Afghans are presently receiving training in India in policing, journalism, medicine and computer science.``
Sridhar

Urstruly,

Hopefully, my previous post served as a ``food for thought.`` Keeping that in mind, I am expecting an article from you discussing the issues faced by the Muslim Men. Please stop concenterating on women. There are enough issues requiring attention amongst Muslim Men. An ideal example will be the very interaction taking place on this board amongst three interactors. Does a non-Muslim need anything else to read or view to realize the Ummah bonding?

It amuses me when I read male scholars writing saheefas on women. The day they are able to solve issues of their own gender that will be a big day ``for the lack of a better term`` :)

Bye Bye!

sorry # 100 was a response to #96 by ZahraJ

…a female scholar should put forth a fatwa that a muslim woman is entitled to demand a written health examination of her spouse to be to make sure that he is not carrying any germs or diseases with him….

…excellent point…reminds me…some years back we wanted to initiate ‘blood-testing’ for the future bride and groom…had discussions on this subject and we made the desi families aware of the dangers of hiv and hepatitis for the protection of the future couples…

…they resisted and opposed the idea…so nothing came off it…

…last year we broached this subject at a gathering of about 55-60 students in pakistan…the ladies were receptive but the men were not….

...t

Tehsinabbasi:

U are right that the legitimized misogyny in these texts, is the reason why our women are down.

1.Many many thousands of noble women of exceptional fortitude and strength lack confidence. They under rate their great strengths of character because of this systematic bias.
2. It is a tragedy a terrible catastrophe that we treat our women like second rate citizens. There is no court where this belief has been debated ever, by anybody, no woman mullah has ever brought her pt of view to bear on this.
3. How can this be divine? How can God be the reason behind it?

Urstruly,

I admire your persistence, steadfastness, research and effort that you did on this topic and others that you have taken up in the past. But (and there had to be a but) your research doesn’t seem to be to a discovery where you would allow the chips to fall where they may - instead it is an effort to justify injunctions already laid out in our religious texts.

The basic point that needs to be determined is whether there is a fundamental misogyny in Islam. The core concept which is misogynic as you have identified is the fact that Islam considers menstruation – “unclean”. Menstruation is a normal body function of adult women. The only comparison that I could make would be if there were laws declaring black skin unworthy. It does not interfere in a woman’s ability to perform any function. Societies primitive or advanced would not function if women would take 3 to 10 days off every month. Where as men get days off from work, housework is never done. Your arguments about hormonal changes causing mood swings are exaggerated. My father never had to save me from the wrath of emotional outbreaks of my mother and I don’t think you would have to worry about getting fair treatment from Justice O’ Connor or Judge Judy (they may not be hormonal but menopausal which does not get them off the hook according to your justification).

Declaring menstruation unclean and then imposing limits like not allowing them to pray or fast etc. has had a devastating impact on the psyche of our women. She is made to feel inferior, unclean, unworthy. This is what keeps our women down, and in the final analysis keep us down.

Naqshbandi …

You are quiet again … unable to explain why your respected ullema are involved in propaganda against Ahmadis. The Islam followed by your and Urstruly’s ullema is neither based on Quran, nor on the examples set by the dear Prophet … but on hatred, propaganda, and violence.

Moving on …

There is a good reason why your ullema are spreading rumors about Mirza Sahib. As usual … I have to teach you and Urstruly what the mullahs do not want you to find out …

For the answer … turn to Quan … where it states that … if he (Mohammad) had associated lies with Allah … Allah would have grabbed him by the right hand, and cut off his lifeline. These verses suggest that a false of claimant of prophethood will die a humiliating death. Such is the decree of Allah.

History of Islam attests to truthfulness of this claim. Numerous individuals falsely claimed to be prophets or Mahdi of their times … but they all died humiliating and violent deaths. None escaped the wrath of Allah … including Muslaima at the times of Hazrat Abu Bakr, the Mahdi from Sudan in recent history, and Rashad Khaliffa just a few years ago. This indeed is strong evidence that Quran is a living book.

In the 14th Islamic century, Mirza Sahib claimed to be a Prophet of Allah … the Mahdi of his times … and the much awaited Issa-ibne-Marriam. His claims sparked off a storm in the Islamic world … and he encountered fierce opposition from your mullahs. Several attempts were made on his life, but none succeeded.

Mirza Sahib boldly claimed … “I swear in the name of Allah Almighty … in Whose Hand is my life … that I am the much awaited Messiah, and a prophet of Allah …”. Read this in juxtaposition with Quranic warning to false claimants of prophethood. Mirza Sahib declared Prophet Mohammad as his master … and Quran as his message. Despite a humble lifestyle and severe opposition … he found acceptance in the hearts of 400,000 people … and died of old age at 73, in the year 1908.

As a last desperate attempt to discredit and humiliate Mirza Sahib … your mullahs started rumors about his death. They cannot accept the fact Mirza Sahib made bold claims … enjoyed protection of Allah Almighty … and found unprecedented acceptance among people. The death of this prophet of Allah was followed by Caliphate for Ahmadi-Muslims … as mentioned in Quran … and witnessed 1400 years ago … which continues to this day.

You mullahs are way out of your league in dealing with Ahmadi-Muslims. You are losing this battle because you are fighting against a prophet of Allah … and the Mahdi of our times. Look at the progress of the Ahmadi-Muslim community all over the world … and look at the humiliating end of your three kings and the declining condition of the Muslims the world over.

It’s over dude … the game is over. All you and Urstruly can now do … is to heckle from sidelines … like a bunch of limping eunuchs … without any sense of shame or morality. Here … deal with this …

I really have a very hard time comprehending the fact that those who focus too much on the rituals of the religion with the knowledge of the essence have a hard time applying the essence to their demeanor. It simply turns me off when I see people being derogatory towards each other on the basis of religion and belief system. And, probably it is not only the focus on religion that limits their vision, but it`s the mental block due to the upbringing. My above discovery is not set in stone, but it`s just a guess.

Ruswa has made quite a few good points in her post. One point that is worth addressing in particular is the sweeping statements and derogatory remarks towards women. The corruption that is prevalent amongst muslim men in general makes it even more embarassing to see them cursing western women or for that matter anyone else. They call names to those women who can stand up for themselves. They would rather have their own women die but stand up for themselves. Basically, the freedom of a woman scares the hell out of an insecure man. A secure man would never get intimidated by an indepedent woman! So, the more the women are independent the harder the men has to work to prove their calibre (in certain cases).

On another note, there was a very depressing study that was revealed in Canada a good number of years back. In that study, it turned out that there was a huge population of converts in some part of Canada who started marrying the born Muslims and as it turned out that out of those wedlocks many cases of aids started blooming. Now, this created a very scary picture in the community and media got involved. The end result as far as I remember was the ignorance on behalf of the women that the born Muslims they were marrying happened to carry aids with them due to a certain life style they followed under the fine garb. What does that say? What do you call such type of men? It`s due to these hypocrisies that there is very little left in the muslim men of today. Exceptions are always there, just like everything else in life.

Now, while we are on the subject: Probably, a female scholar should put forth a fatwa that a muslim woman is entitled to demand a written health examination of her spouse to be to make sure that he is not carrying any germs or diseases with him. I am wondering how this ruling<...>would be taken in the islamic countries.