Terrorism, Sectarianism and the Military
Hassan Nasir July 15, 2003
#118 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 19, 2003 6:21:48 am
#110 by rsridhar
I had written:
``Pakistani Pakhtoons are much better off than Afghan Pakhtoons, Pakistani Hazaras are much better off than their Afghan cousins, Pakistani Punjabis are much better off than their Indian cousins, Pakistani Mohajir community is much better off than their Indian Muslim cousins, Pakistan based Kashmiris are much better off than the Indian based Kashmiris``
You wrote:
``You can say what you want but where is the proof?``
Here are some of the proofs:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2088/r_index.htm
http://www.khalistan.net/emailmar.htm
Read the human right violations in Indian Punjab, especially those meted out to the Sikhs. It is against this backdrop that I consider Pakistani Punjabis to be better off.
Also note that according to Indians, Pakistani Punjabis are a ruling elite. Now this is some thing that an Indian Punjabi Sikh cannot even dream about.
;-)
I had written:
``Pakistani Pakhtoons are much better off than Afghan Pakhtoons, Pakistani Hazaras are much better off than their Afghan cousins, Pakistani Punjabis are much better off than their Indian cousins, Pakistani Mohajir community is much better off than their Indian Muslim cousins, Pakistan based Kashmiris are much better off than the Indian based Kashmiris``
You wrote:
``You can say what you want but where is the proof?``
Here are some of the proofs:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/2088/r_index.htm
http://www.khalistan.net/emailmar.htm
Read the human right violations in Indian Punjab, especially those meted out to the Sikhs. It is against this backdrop that I consider Pakistani Punjabis to be better off.
Also note that according to Indians, Pakistani Punjabis are a ruling elite. Now this is some thing that an Indian Punjabi Sikh cannot even dream about.
;-)
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#117 Posted by harimau on July 19, 2003 6:21:48 am
Ref arjun_m #12
[Fool me once, shame on twice..
Fool me twice, shame on me..
Fool me thrice, i`m probably a Pakistani know-it-all General..]
You have the saying wrong.
According to George DWI Bush:
``There`s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it`s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can`t get fooled again.`` —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
Yours in the interest of verity,
Harimau
[Fool me once, shame on twice..
Fool me twice, shame on me..
Fool me thrice, i`m probably a Pakistani know-it-all General..]
You have the saying wrong.
According to George DWI Bush:
``There`s an old saying in Tennessee — I know it`s in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can`t get fooled again.`` —George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Sept. 17, 2002
Yours in the interest of verity,
Harimau
#116 Posted by rsaxena on July 19, 2003 6:21:47 am
....uh oh, this is bery bery bery bad for pakis.....
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13526-2003Jul18.html
India, Israel Interests Team Up
Common Needs Lead to a Growing Lobbying Alliance
By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, July 19, 2003; Page A05
When the House passed a $3 billion aid package for Pakistan this week, Jewish and Indian American lobbyists teamed up to win an amendment pressuring Pakistan to stop Islamic militants from crossing into India.
Wearing lapel pins of the Stars and Stripes sandwiched between the flags of India and Israel, the amendment`s supporters then gathered in a Capitol Hill reception room to celebrate the burgeoning political alliance between Indians and Jews in the United States.
Women in saris mingled among men in yarmulkes, a cacophony of accents united in a desire for access. Despite their obvious differences, the alliance has the potential to magnify the voices of two communities that are small in number -- about 5.2 million Jews and 1.8 million Indians -- but highly educated, affluent and attached to democratic homelands facing what they increasingly view as a common enemy.
Indians and Jews share ``a passionate commitment to respect for others, for the rule of law and for democracy,`` Rep. Tom Lantos (D-Calif.), a Hungarian-born Holocaust survivor, told the jubilant crowd after the House vote. ``And lately we have been drawn together by our joint fight against mindless, vicious, fanatic Islamic terrorism.``
In recent months, pro-Israel and pro-India lobbyists successfully worked together to gain the Bush administration`s approval for Israel to sell four Phalcon early warning radar planes to India for about $1 billion, a deal that has alarmed the Pakistani government. Three years ago, the United States blocked a nearly identical proposal for Israel to sell radar planes to China.
The same coalition of groups -- including the U.S.-India Political Action Committee (USINPAC), America Israel Political Action Committee (AIPAC) and American Jewish Committee (AJC) -- is now seeking U.S. approval for India to purchase Israel`s Arrow ballistic missile defense system.
Participants said the alliance has been quietly forming for several years. The American Jewish Committee, for example, has sent seven delegations to India since 1995, and two years ago it took a group of Indian American leaders to visit Israel. This year, it is opening a permanent liaison office in India and completing renovations to an earthquake-damaged school that serves mostly Muslim children in the Indian state of Gujarat, according to Jason Isaacson, AJC`s director of government and international affairs.
On the domestic political front, AJC has held two training sessions in New York in the past year, showing the ropes of grass-roots lobbying to about 80 Indian Americans from around the country. Many are blunt about their desire to emulate American Jewish groups.
``I think Indian Americans see the American Jewish community as a yardstick against which to compare themselves. It`s seen as the gold standard in terms of political activism,`` said Kumar P. Barve, the majority leader in the Maryland House of Delegates and the highest elected Indian American official in the country.
The Indian immigrant community, which doubled during the high technology boom between 1990 and 2000, is newer to U.S. politics and is only beginning to organize. USINPAC, for example, was formed in September 2002. Its executive director, Sanjay Puri, said the joint lobbying with pro-Israel groups for arms sales and the Pakistani aid amendment is ``just the first of many things we`re doing together. ``
The amendment, sponsored by Del. Eni F.H. Faleomavaega (D-American Samoa), requires the Bush administration to report to Congress on Pakistan`s steps to close terrorist camps in Pakistani-held Kashmir, stop militants from crossing into India and prevent the spread of weapons of mass destruction. Puri said that even though Jewish groups have no direct interest in Kashmir, they have promised to support similar language in the Senate.
``We`re building a long-term relationship,`` he said. ``Of course, this is not against, or to the exclusion of, any other community.``
Pakistani American groups don`t see it that way.
``This alliance is specifically aimed at Pakistan, aimed at harming Pakistan`s interests in this country,`` charged Faiz Rehman, president of the 3,500-member National Council of Pakistani Americans.
``Where will the Phalcons be focused? On Pakistan,`` said Riaz Ahmad, a founder of the Pakistani American Congress, an umbrella organization of 44 groups. ``It will become an arms race. And you should see how poor India and Pakistan are. How can they afford such things?``
Jeffrey Colman, AIPAC`s deputy legislative director, said the cooperation between American Jews and Indians mirrors relations between Israel and India. Although both countries gained independence from Britain at about the same time in 1947-48, they were wary of each other for decades. India, as leader of the non-aligned movement, had close ties to Egypt and the East Bloc.
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, however, India has become one of Israel`s largest business partners, with more than $1 billion in trade and many high-tech joint ventures.
So far, the Jewish-Indian alliance in the United States has focused on foreign policy. But the two communities also have combined forces on electoral politics. They worked to defeat former House member Cynthia McKinney (D-Ga.), whom they perceived as antagonistic both to Israel and to India.
``There was a natural connection already in Atlanta, through the business world, and then when McKinney was bashing both our homelands, we just took our business connections and social connections and made them political,`` said Harin J. Contractor, an Indian American student at the University of Georgia. ``It was a great model to follow.``
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A13526-2003Jul18.html
India, Israel Interests Team Up
Common Needs Lead to a Growing Lobbying Alliance
By Alan Cooperman
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, July 19, 2003; Page A05
When the House passed a $3 billion aid package for Pakistan this week, Jewish and Indian American lobbyists teamed up to win an amendment pressuring Pakistan to stop Islamic militants from crossing into India.
Wearing lapel pins of the Stars and Stripes sandwiched between the flags of India and Israel, the amendment`s supporters then gathered in a Capitol Hill reception room to celebrate the burgeoning political alliance between Indians and Jews in the United States.
Women in saris mingled among men in yarmulkes, a cacophony of accents united in a desire for access. Despite their obvious differences, the alliance has the potential to magnify the voices of two communities that are small in number -- about 5.2 million Jews and 1.8 million Indians -- but highly educated, affluent and attached to democratic homelands facing what they increasingly view as a common enemy.
Indians and Jews share ``a passionate commitment to respect for others, for the rule of law and for democracy,`` Rep. Tom Lantos (D-Calif.), a Hungarian-born Holocaust survivor, told the jubilant crowd after the House vote. ``And lately we have been drawn together by our joint fight against mindless, vicious, fanatic Islamic terrorism.``
In recent months, pro-Israel and pro-India lobbyists successfully worked together to gain the Bush administration`s approval for Israel to sell four Phalcon early warning radar planes to India for about $1 billion, a deal that has alarmed the Pakistani government. Three years ago, the United States blocked a nearly identical proposal for Israel to sell radar planes to China.
The same coalition of groups -- including the U.S.-India Political Action Committee (USINPAC), America Israel Political Action Committee (AIPAC) and American Jewish Committee (AJC) -- is now seeking U.S. approval for India to purchase Israel`s Arrow ballistic missile defense system.
Participants said the alliance has been quietly forming for several years. The American Jewish Committee, for example, has sent seven delegations to India since 1995, and two years ago it took a group of Indian American leaders to visit Israel. This year, it is opening a permanent liaison office in India and completing renovations to an earthquake-damaged school that serves mostly Muslim children in the Indian state of Gujarat, according to Jason Isaacson, AJC`s director of government and international affairs.
On the domestic political front, AJC has held two training sessions in New York in the past year, showing the ropes of grass-roots lobbying to about 80 Indian Americans from around the country. Many are blunt about their desire to emulate American Jewish groups.
``I think Indian Americans see the American Jewish community as a yardstick against which to compare themselves. It`s seen as the gold standard in terms of political activism,`` said Kumar P. Barve, the majority leader in the Maryland House of Delegates and the highest elected Indian American official in the country.
The Indian immigrant community, which doubled during the high technology boom between 1990 and 2000, is newer to U.S. politics and is only beginning to organize. USINPAC, for example, was formed in September 2002. Its executive director, Sanjay Puri, said the joint lobbying with pro-Israel groups for arms sales and the Pakistani aid amendment is ``just the first of many things we`re doing together. ``
The amendment, sponsored by Del. Eni F.H. Faleomavaega (D-American Samoa), requires the Bush administration to report to Congress on Pakistan`s steps to close terrorist camps in Pakistani-held Kashmir, stop militants from crossing into India and prevent the spread of weapons of mass destruction. Puri said that even though Jewish groups have no direct interest in Kashmir, they have promised to support similar language in the Senate.
``We`re building a long-term relationship,`` he said. ``Of course, this is not against, or to the exclusion of, any other community.``
Pakistani American groups don`t see it that way.
``This alliance is specifically aimed at Pakistan, aimed at harming Pakistan`s interests in this country,`` charged Faiz Rehman, president of the 3,500-member National Council of Pakistani Americans.
``Where will the Phalcons be focused? On Pakistan,`` said Riaz Ahmad, a founder of the Pakistani American Congress, an umbrella organization of 44 groups. ``It will become an arms race. And you should see how poor India and Pakistan are. How can they afford such things?``
Jeffrey Colman, AIPAC`s deputy legislative director, said the cooperation between American Jews and Indians mirrors relations between Israel and India. Although both countries gained independence from Britain at about the same time in 1947-48, they were wary of each other for decades. India, as leader of the non-aligned movement, had close ties to Egypt and the East Bloc.
Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, however, India has become one of Israel`s largest business partners, with more than $1 billion in trade and many high-tech joint ventures.
So far, the Jewish-Indian alliance in the United States has focused on foreign policy. But the two communities also have combined forces on electoral politics. They worked to defeat former House member Cynthia McKinney (D-Ga.), whom they perceived as antagonistic both to Israel and to India.
``There was a natural connection already in Atlanta, through the business world, and then when McKinney was bashing both our homelands, we just took our business connections and social connections and made them political,`` said Harin J. Contractor, an Indian American student at the University of Georgia. ``It was a great model to follow.``
#115 Posted by rsridhar on July 19, 2003 6:21:47 am
re: Field Marshal`s ramblings
Those who are reading the posts of Romair, Chowk`s F.M, will notice something different. Gone are the arguments. Gone are the facts to support the argument. The F.M is now resorting to the age old game of ``shifting the blame``. There is nothing much good to talk about Pakistan. That does not deter our F.M. There must be something good but the Indians do not see it! They do not introspect enough! Woe be to the Indians!
Give me a frikking break. There is enough introspection going on in India. Those who watch the T.V channels and read the newspapers regularly know it. But India is also developing fast and has left Pak in the dust. It has a renewed confidence, which is getting reflected in its speech and actions. Pakis do not and will not understand this.
Sridhar
Those who are reading the posts of Romair, Chowk`s F.M, will notice something different. Gone are the arguments. Gone are the facts to support the argument. The F.M is now resorting to the age old game of ``shifting the blame``. There is nothing much good to talk about Pakistan. That does not deter our F.M. There must be something good but the Indians do not see it! They do not introspect enough! Woe be to the Indians!
Give me a frikking break. There is enough introspection going on in India. Those who watch the T.V channels and read the newspapers regularly know it. But India is also developing fast and has left Pak in the dust. It has a renewed confidence, which is getting reflected in its speech and actions. Pakis do not and will not understand this.
Sridhar
#114 Posted by rsridhar on July 19, 2003 6:21:47 am
re: post#112
Ahmedmadani rocks. Full power to him. Now, that is intelligent introspection. I salute people like madani who can see evil when it stares at your face. Army rule in Pak is evil. Take it away and we have a great opportunity for living together like brothers.
Sridhar
Ahmedmadani rocks. Full power to him. Now, that is intelligent introspection. I salute people like madani who can see evil when it stares at your face. Army rule in Pak is evil. Take it away and we have a great opportunity for living together like brothers.
Sridhar
#113 Posted by dost_mittar on July 19, 2003 5:47:07 am
Romair#111
I dont know how good you were as a military man but you would certainly make an excellent politician (and this is a compliment!). You are superb at grandstanding and generalising while avoiding answering specific questions. I am saying this from personal experience in the past. This quality will win you lots of votes in an election but not many converts at an open forum where everyone can see what you choose to answer as well as what you choose to ignore.
I dont know how good you were as a military man but you would certainly make an excellent politician (and this is a compliment!). You are superb at grandstanding and generalising while avoiding answering specific questions. I am saying this from personal experience in the past. This quality will win you lots of votes in an election but not many converts at an open forum where everyone can see what you choose to answer as well as what you choose to ignore.
#112 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 19, 2003 12:08:25 am
# 105 ( B J Samir...... I read with interest your letter. I agree with most of things you have put very subtly many points. I always wanted to write to let you some people like undiluted defence of real democracy and not accepting goondabazi by controllers of so called democracy. Its difficult to be intelluctually honest and consistently. And you are one of such person and you put your position with passion and with simple jargen without bringing ``what some body said``.
Your good heart as here so many turn coat democrats cum supporters of khaki Rulers. From large spectrum are turn coats ,ex Paks,educated Babus, ex. military men who are for democracy but at same time go out of way support whatever the khaki dictector in any form. I do not as Mr. Churchill felt patriotism is last resort of Lafangas but do feel patriotism for supporting military rule is intelluctual adultry as well as immoral thing to do. It was very obnoxious to find quoters of Mr. Jinnah at same time supporting army rule.
I always feel very offended when General tells person like me can not stand for election. Its not election its then appointment of partisians.Its totally undemocratic to decide unsuitability of candinates on some education degrees. ITs not democracy. Its shame we had to go through this farce and tragedy. There should not be any disqualifications based on such factors except may be criminal convicted by courts. ( I personally feel our judge starting with Justice munir- okeying military Coup- are totally unqualified). Here is advantage for Indian courts they declared Mrs. Gandhi Guilty on technical counts, a lower court in Allahbad. Three cheers for Indian judiaciary. It made clear to MRs. Gandhi she can bent, beat ,prison opponents but can not steam roll courts. ( I do not know what happened to judge but never read he was found dead on a road.What that judge does? May be we should ask our supreme court judges to wash his feet.) When Supreme court Judges take oath of ``temperory new order`` or agree to everything what a ordinary person can do?. People follow what is happening at apex.
President election was total farce. Why we call election also as there was only one candidate and himself and at many places he got more than 100%. But still is refered as presidential elections.
World does not really think any thing General says about kashmir as there is no democracy for 54 years and the way things are it may not be there for next 100 years. In fact I think it must be great joke when General says he wants to be there to save democracy. It must be hard for diplomatic service people to justify our democracy. Here Indians has great advantage. There is rough tough abrasive but still vibrant democracy. One must admit and admire those poor toiling indians who totally rejected this emergency and taught lesson for Mrs. Gandhi and rejected totally out of hand justifications for emmergency.
It is to sagecity of Indian masses and their opposition leaders who faught the injustice, present PM and Deputy PM, defence minister andl smaller and large leaders and scores of leaders across board suffered prison as they did not compromise on this suspension of democratic rights. Who ever Leader in India leant lesson it will not be tolerated. India won great battle for democracy . Even america knows that they never think of calling Indian PM at night for phone and lecture as they know that if they try than then forget it.
We lost all times never learnt lesson we mis learned lesson our leaders of all stripe learnt to be immoral and practical. Our is one of country with miracles where people celebrate Coups whole heartedly. All compromise , any thing everything possible its just question of price. Look how PML ( Lotas) stabbed Nawaz, or PPPP stabbed their own leader and justified. It our Irony we all talk about ``great Indian Baniya`` but our Buniyas are better every thing is for sale just right price. Its not ironic once Ghulam Mustafa Khar( shere Punjab,Chief minister of Punjab) openly said we will come to Pakistan on Indian Tanks. He may be right. Everything is for sale. We were richer than Indians in many ways for almost 45 years. Indians were damn poor. I once ment Sindhi Hindu engineer visiting pakistan staying with our hotel. I helped him to visit his gone by family places. He was shocked to know most engineers in pakistan drive cars. (in 1967s). So poverty is not excuse Indians were much poorer. They did not have Coca Cola also or any japanese cars.
We have to accept the general loss of character of nation. Only corroupt can be ruled so brutely by army rule and so long. Mr. Tariq Aziz symboliese what we are. Few Nababzada`s are left but they are dieing. Its deressing corroupt atmosphere this 52 years of military rule and peple tolerate. Than they deserve it as their pain limit is high.
In these degrading condition Mr. Sumir you try to not white wash crimes and do not accept garbage under pretext of patriotism. I salute you. I wonder its fatigue or real but slow lost Individualcharacter . ( I am tired of saying all bad things are due to politicians). The degrading character leads to lies and loss of judgement.. In 1971 I always wondered when last opportunity was given to save (dissolve) Pakistan by india by supporting ``polish resolution`` not single news paper, not single leader( Except Wali Khan), even inprivate any educated people thought of accepting face saving formula. It is my belief army rules leads to intelluctual degradation and loss of understanding surrounding world. Worst we even are not aware of this transformation.
I had few letter from chowkies and i thank all of them. Personally I am taking foreign assignment for for almost 3.5 months in middleeast. This will be temporary and will be back in Karachi in November. Then I will interact.I will do my best my abilities to give justice to given duty. I do extra efforts to do better( in foreign) as if i do good job they will say pakistanis are good people, if i do bad job they will say Ahmed Madani is not good and all pakistanis are like that. I try best to give best what I can.
tHANKS EVERYBODY AND GOOD LUCK. hOPE WE HAVE GOOD RAINS ALL OVER SOUTH ASIA. wITH BEST WISHES TO ALL CHOWK READERS. a. mADANI
Your good heart as here so many turn coat democrats cum supporters of khaki Rulers. From large spectrum are turn coats ,ex Paks,educated Babus, ex. military men who are for democracy but at same time go out of way support whatever the khaki dictector in any form. I do not as Mr. Churchill felt patriotism is last resort of Lafangas but do feel patriotism for supporting military rule is intelluctual adultry as well as immoral thing to do. It was very obnoxious to find quoters of Mr. Jinnah at same time supporting army rule.
I always feel very offended when General tells person like me can not stand for election. Its not election its then appointment of partisians.Its totally undemocratic to decide unsuitability of candinates on some education degrees. ITs not democracy. Its shame we had to go through this farce and tragedy. There should not be any disqualifications based on such factors except may be criminal convicted by courts. ( I personally feel our judge starting with Justice munir- okeying military Coup- are totally unqualified). Here is advantage for Indian courts they declared Mrs. Gandhi Guilty on technical counts, a lower court in Allahbad. Three cheers for Indian judiaciary. It made clear to MRs. Gandhi she can bent, beat ,prison opponents but can not steam roll courts. ( I do not know what happened to judge but never read he was found dead on a road.What that judge does? May be we should ask our supreme court judges to wash his feet.) When Supreme court Judges take oath of ``temperory new order`` or agree to everything what a ordinary person can do?. People follow what is happening at apex.
President election was total farce. Why we call election also as there was only one candidate and himself and at many places he got more than 100%. But still is refered as presidential elections.
World does not really think any thing General says about kashmir as there is no democracy for 54 years and the way things are it may not be there for next 100 years. In fact I think it must be great joke when General says he wants to be there to save democracy. It must be hard for diplomatic service people to justify our democracy. Here Indians has great advantage. There is rough tough abrasive but still vibrant democracy. One must admit and admire those poor toiling indians who totally rejected this emergency and taught lesson for Mrs. Gandhi and rejected totally out of hand justifications for emmergency.
It is to sagecity of Indian masses and their opposition leaders who faught the injustice, present PM and Deputy PM, defence minister andl smaller and large leaders and scores of leaders across board suffered prison as they did not compromise on this suspension of democratic rights. Who ever Leader in India leant lesson it will not be tolerated. India won great battle for democracy . Even america knows that they never think of calling Indian PM at night for phone and lecture as they know that if they try than then forget it.
We lost all times never learnt lesson we mis learned lesson our leaders of all stripe learnt to be immoral and practical. Our is one of country with miracles where people celebrate Coups whole heartedly. All compromise , any thing everything possible its just question of price. Look how PML ( Lotas) stabbed Nawaz, or PPPP stabbed their own leader and justified. It our Irony we all talk about ``great Indian Baniya`` but our Buniyas are better every thing is for sale just right price. Its not ironic once Ghulam Mustafa Khar( shere Punjab,Chief minister of Punjab) openly said we will come to Pakistan on Indian Tanks. He may be right. Everything is for sale. We were richer than Indians in many ways for almost 45 years. Indians were damn poor. I once ment Sindhi Hindu engineer visiting pakistan staying with our hotel. I helped him to visit his gone by family places. He was shocked to know most engineers in pakistan drive cars. (in 1967s). So poverty is not excuse Indians were much poorer. They did not have Coca Cola also or any japanese cars.
We have to accept the general loss of character of nation. Only corroupt can be ruled so brutely by army rule and so long. Mr. Tariq Aziz symboliese what we are. Few Nababzada`s are left but they are dieing. Its deressing corroupt atmosphere this 52 years of military rule and peple tolerate. Than they deserve it as their pain limit is high.
In these degrading condition Mr. Sumir you try to not white wash crimes and do not accept garbage under pretext of patriotism. I salute you. I wonder its fatigue or real but slow lost Individualcharacter . ( I am tired of saying all bad things are due to politicians). The degrading character leads to lies and loss of judgement.. In 1971 I always wondered when last opportunity was given to save (dissolve) Pakistan by india by supporting ``polish resolution`` not single news paper, not single leader( Except Wali Khan), even inprivate any educated people thought of accepting face saving formula. It is my belief army rules leads to intelluctual degradation and loss of understanding surrounding world. Worst we even are not aware of this transformation.
I had few letter from chowkies and i thank all of them. Personally I am taking foreign assignment for for almost 3.5 months in middleeast. This will be temporary and will be back in Karachi in November. Then I will interact.I will do my best my abilities to give justice to given duty. I do extra efforts to do better( in foreign) as if i do good job they will say pakistanis are good people, if i do bad job they will say Ahmed Madani is not good and all pakistanis are like that. I try best to give best what I can.
tHANKS EVERYBODY AND GOOD LUCK. hOPE WE HAVE GOOD RAINS ALL OVER SOUTH ASIA. wITH BEST WISHES TO ALL CHOWK READERS. a. mADANI
#111 Posted by rsridhar on July 18, 2003 10:56:58 pm
re: #80 by ahmadzai
``Pakistani Pakhtoons are much better off than Afghan Pakhtoons, Pakistani Hazaras are much better off than their Afghan cousins, Pakistani Punjabis are much better off than their Indian cousins, Pakistani Mohajir community is much better off than their Indian Muslim cousins, Pakistan based Kashmiris are much better off than the Indian based Kashmiris``
You can say what you want but where is the proof?
I need to see some economic indicators to believe that Paki Punjabis are better off than Indian ones. Barring the Punjabis who are in Army (especially brigadier onwards), i do not think rest of Punjabis are better off than Indian counterparts.
Here is an article that contrasts Indian and Paki Punjab. Both are mainly agricultural areas. Their agricultural performance will give some indication of who is more prosperous.
http://www.pakistaneconomist.com/issue1999/issue35/i&e3.htm
The total geographical areas of Pakistani Punjab are 79284 sq miles and that of Indian Punjab are 19,450 square miles, respectively. Thus, our area is about 4 times greater than that of Indian Punjab. Yet, the Indian side produces more and feeds almost the entire nation of 950 million.
Other parameters like health and literacy show a striking difference between Indian and Paki Punjab:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20000514/spectrum/main1.htm
``While the state of education in Pakistani Punjab is actually poorer than the rest of Pakistan, Indian Punjab has recorded one of the highest literacy rates in India. The literacy rate in Indian Punjab in 58.5 per cent, more than double the rate for Pakistani Punjab (24.5 per cent). Male literacy in Indian Punjab, at 65.7 per cent, is about double the rate in Pakistani Punjab -- 33.5 per cent. In terms of female literacy, Indian Punjab is almost three-and-a-half times better with 50.4 per cent compared to Pakistani Punjab’s 14.4 per cent.``
``More interesting is the urban-rural comparison. Indian Punjab’s urban literacy is 67.1 per cent to Pakistani Punjab’s 43.1 per cent. Urban male literacy is 72.9 per cent here compared to 51.5 per cent in the latter, while urban female literacy is 60.3 per cent and 33.2 per cent respectively. The Indian Punjab also scores over the other in terms of rural literacy. The average rates for the two are 42.6 per cent and 17.3 per cent. Rural male literacy in Indian Punjab is 50.5 per cent compared to Pakistani Punjab’s 26.4 per cent. Rural female literacy in Indian Punjab is 33.5 per cent, almost five times the rural female literacy in Pakistani Punjab at 7.4 per cent.``
Pakisani Kashmiris are better off than Indian ones? That is a joke. Indian Kashmir is facing terrorism from across the border. That is why the economic performance has stagnated. I had posted several articles in the past to show that in Pak held Kashmir, Kashmiris did not enjoy any rights, including right to vote. The demography of the area has changed so that Kashmiris do not form a significant majority. There are many punjabis settled there.
http://meadev.nic.in/opn/2002july/2stm.htm
``Pakistan has changed the demography of its occupied area in Kashmir by resettling large number of Punjabi ex-servicemen and Afghans from North-West Frontier Province, thereby making plebiscite of erstwhile J&K irrelevant.``
How about the Hindus in Pakistan? How about the Ahmediyas? Shias? Christians?
Sindhi community in India is a prosperous community. This is widely known. I do not have to waste my time posting some articles to prove what is widely known. How are the original Sindhis in Pak faring as compared to the Sindhi minority community in India? Perhaps some Sindhi interactors in Chowk can throw some light. We had this interesting discussion about a year ago or so. One of the Sindhi interactors (Samina Shah?) had a lot to say.
Sridhar
``Pakistani Pakhtoons are much better off than Afghan Pakhtoons, Pakistani Hazaras are much better off than their Afghan cousins, Pakistani Punjabis are much better off than their Indian cousins, Pakistani Mohajir community is much better off than their Indian Muslim cousins, Pakistan based Kashmiris are much better off than the Indian based Kashmiris``
You can say what you want but where is the proof?
I need to see some economic indicators to believe that Paki Punjabis are better off than Indian ones. Barring the Punjabis who are in Army (especially brigadier onwards), i do not think rest of Punjabis are better off than Indian counterparts.
Here is an article that contrasts Indian and Paki Punjab. Both are mainly agricultural areas. Their agricultural performance will give some indication of who is more prosperous.
http://www.pakistaneconomist.com/issue1999/issue35/i&e3.htm
The total geographical areas of Pakistani Punjab are 79284 sq miles and that of Indian Punjab are 19,450 square miles, respectively. Thus, our area is about 4 times greater than that of Indian Punjab. Yet, the Indian side produces more and feeds almost the entire nation of 950 million.
Other parameters like health and literacy show a striking difference between Indian and Paki Punjab:
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2000/20000514/spectrum/main1.htm
``While the state of education in Pakistani Punjab is actually poorer than the rest of Pakistan, Indian Punjab has recorded one of the highest literacy rates in India. The literacy rate in Indian Punjab in 58.5 per cent, more than double the rate for Pakistani Punjab (24.5 per cent). Male literacy in Indian Punjab, at 65.7 per cent, is about double the rate in Pakistani Punjab -- 33.5 per cent. In terms of female literacy, Indian Punjab is almost three-and-a-half times better with 50.4 per cent compared to Pakistani Punjab’s 14.4 per cent.``
``More interesting is the urban-rural comparison. Indian Punjab’s urban literacy is 67.1 per cent to Pakistani Punjab’s 43.1 per cent. Urban male literacy is 72.9 per cent here compared to 51.5 per cent in the latter, while urban female literacy is 60.3 per cent and 33.2 per cent respectively. The Indian Punjab also scores over the other in terms of rural literacy. The average rates for the two are 42.6 per cent and 17.3 per cent. Rural male literacy in Indian Punjab is 50.5 per cent compared to Pakistani Punjab’s 26.4 per cent. Rural female literacy in Indian Punjab is 33.5 per cent, almost five times the rural female literacy in Pakistani Punjab at 7.4 per cent.``
Pakisani Kashmiris are better off than Indian ones? That is a joke. Indian Kashmir is facing terrorism from across the border. That is why the economic performance has stagnated. I had posted several articles in the past to show that in Pak held Kashmir, Kashmiris did not enjoy any rights, including right to vote. The demography of the area has changed so that Kashmiris do not form a significant majority. There are many punjabis settled there.
http://meadev.nic.in/opn/2002july/2stm.htm
``Pakistan has changed the demography of its occupied area in Kashmir by resettling large number of Punjabi ex-servicemen and Afghans from North-West Frontier Province, thereby making plebiscite of erstwhile J&K irrelevant.``
How about the Hindus in Pakistan? How about the Ahmediyas? Shias? Christians?
Sindhi community in India is a prosperous community. This is widely known. I do not have to waste my time posting some articles to prove what is widely known. How are the original Sindhis in Pak faring as compared to the Sindhi minority community in India? Perhaps some Sindhi interactors in Chowk can throw some light. We had this interesting discussion about a year ago or so. One of the Sindhi interactors (Samina Shah?) had a lot to say.
Sridhar
#110 Posted by Romair on July 18, 2003 10:56:58 pm
Shankar #102: The reason I reply to your posts specifically is that I feel there is still hope for you, while many other Indians have become victims of their media`s anti-Pakistan propgoanda.
But maybe I am wrong.
You have unfortunately, once again, done exactly what I was hoping could be avoided, i.e. the India is right, Pakistan is wrong argument. Maybe someday Indians will be willing to admit that they can be wrong also. To be obsessed with the Pakistan military is something you will have to solve on your own. Why aren`t Pakistanis obsessed with the Indian military?
Let me explain to you why I think Indians are incapable of introspection, and are thus brainwashed vis-a-vis Pakistan (this is not related to China, hence no need to discuss China). By the way, being brainwashed does not necessarily mean one is a bad person. It just means one is on the wrong path:
Lets use someone as an example whom we both know. You.
You have repeatedly stated that your views about Pakistan have changed by visiting this website, and interacting with Pakistanis. I am assuming you are a man in your 40s. You are very well educated. You have exposure or the world outside India. Though you are ill-informed, somewhat naive, and easily influenced, you are not a bigot, and thus have the capability to look at both sides of the argument. You grew up right across the border of Pakistan. And you claim (I hink) that Indians want friendship with Pakistan.
Yet, what is your level of knowledge of Pakistan and Pakistanis? Have you ever made an effort to learn anything about Pakstan? If at this stage of your life, you have so little knowledge about Pakistan, that your views can be changed by some replies on a tiny website, then I am afraid you know extremely little about Pakistan. And if an Indian of your education and exposure knows so little, then what does that say for the 99% of Indians who do not have that exposure?
As a psychiatrist, you must agree that people can be influenced by media, by biases, by lies, etc. This is specially true, when such people do not have any information to counter the lies. Americans will believe whatever Bush and CNN say about Iraq, since their minds are vacuums when it comes to Iraq. But they will not believe the same thing about Idaho or Mexico. If the Americans knew more about Iraq, they would be able to differentiate between govt. propoganda and the truth.
Isn`t it a sad state of affairs that an educated Indian like yourself, knows next to nothing about Pakistan? A country which borders it. And isn`t it an even worse state of affairs, when despite knowing next to nothing about Pakistan, Indians hold such strong negative views about Pakistan. How can one form views about someone one has no knowledge of. For lack of a better word, I would describe this lack of knowledge and lack of effort to gain this knowledge as pathetic (pardon my Punjabi).
I think there are topics about India which I have more knowledge than even you do. A few that come to mind are the Indian IT industry, Indian movie and music industry and the Indian military. Is there any topic in the world related to Pakistan, that you have more knowledge than me about, including own your field of medicine?
I spend most of my working day with Indians. I eat with them, talk with them, watch their movies, go to their shows. I try my best to understand them, so that my views aren`t biased. Have you ever made such an effort? How many Pakistani families do you know? How many do you hang around with? How many Pakistani shows have you gone to? Have you ever made an effort to understand Pakistan to counter the venom thrown at you by your govt. and media?
The above is true, in general, for Pakistanis and for Indians. I am just using you and me as an example.
Why can I discuss India for hours with my Indian colleagues? While they are completely clueless about Pakistan? Why do they get so confused when they meet Pakistanis, and realize that the Pakistanis don`t fit into the media dominated evil picture painted by their govt.? Why don`t they make an equivalent effort to understand Pakistan? Much like the Pakistanis do to understand India? Why is that every Indian delegation that comes to Pakistan ends up saying it is not what they thought it would be?
Why do Indians get emotional, and start descrbing the evils of Pakistan, when Pakistani present arguments about Kashmir which involve human rights organizations and self-determination for human being? Why not stick to the point? India can still be wrong, even if Pakistan is evil. And how can they so confidently describe those evils, when they have so little knowledge of the place? Why is it Pakistanis are willing to look for solutions to problems with India, outside the Indo-Pak spectrum, through third parties? While Indians are only willing to accept solutions that suit India. If India will not accept a purely Pakistani solution, how does it expect Pakistan to accept a purely Indian solution?
Why not allow outside parties to help us solve problems? Shouldn`t we be convinced by now that we cannot solve those problems ourselves?
I think a lot of this has to do with the lack of effort of Indians to go beyond their govts.` views in understanding Pakistan. This is what leads to the lack of introspection, I was talking about. Indians are dead convinced Pakistan is wrong, even when provided with logic. This is because their govt. has convinced them that Pakistan is the devil, and they have no information or experience of their own to counter their govt. with. This leads to Ta state of denial about their own wrongdoings in areas like Kashmir etc.
If Indians made an effort to understand Pakistan beyond a website, they would, I think, challenge their own govt. I say this because I have found nearly all Indians to be quite reasonable people. When reasonable people at an individual level, behave so unreasonably at the national level, to the point of accepting their own govts.` policies of blaming Pakistan for everything while not allowing any third party/human rights inspections, then it indicates quite a bit of brainwashing.
This brainwashing would not be successful, if Indians made a legitimate effort to understand Pakistan. The reason Pakistanis are willing to go half-way and criticize both India and Pakistan, is because they have made an effort to understand India, and definitely understand it better than vice-versa. As I stated, I don`t need a website to form views about India. I have made a deliberate effort to understand it, myself. And probably knew more about it at the age of fifteen than you know about Pakistan in your 40s. You will find this to be true of most Pakistanis, in comparison with Indians.
Until Indians make such an effort, I am not sure they can make a genuine claim about being friends with Pakistan. How can someone claim friendship, when they are unwilling to even understand who the other person is? What if we turn out to be the fanatically religous terrorist that the Indian govt. and movies etc. keeps painting us to be to its populace? Shouldn`t you figure that out first?
If you are unwilling to figure that out, then I think you are not keeping your end of the bargain. Friendship has to be based on understanding. And that understanding will never develop, as long as Indians continue to hold such strong views against Pakistan, while having no knowledge of the country and its people. They will never see anything wrong with India`s views and will always see everything wrong with Pakistan` views. And will never agree to friendship with Pakistan, until Pakistan accepts everything on India`s terms.
This is a great tragedy.
But maybe I am wrong.
You have unfortunately, once again, done exactly what I was hoping could be avoided, i.e. the India is right, Pakistan is wrong argument. Maybe someday Indians will be willing to admit that they can be wrong also. To be obsessed with the Pakistan military is something you will have to solve on your own. Why aren`t Pakistanis obsessed with the Indian military?
Let me explain to you why I think Indians are incapable of introspection, and are thus brainwashed vis-a-vis Pakistan (this is not related to China, hence no need to discuss China). By the way, being brainwashed does not necessarily mean one is a bad person. It just means one is on the wrong path:
Lets use someone as an example whom we both know. You.
You have repeatedly stated that your views about Pakistan have changed by visiting this website, and interacting with Pakistanis. I am assuming you are a man in your 40s. You are very well educated. You have exposure or the world outside India. Though you are ill-informed, somewhat naive, and easily influenced, you are not a bigot, and thus have the capability to look at both sides of the argument. You grew up right across the border of Pakistan. And you claim (I hink) that Indians want friendship with Pakistan.
Yet, what is your level of knowledge of Pakistan and Pakistanis? Have you ever made an effort to learn anything about Pakstan? If at this stage of your life, you have so little knowledge about Pakistan, that your views can be changed by some replies on a tiny website, then I am afraid you know extremely little about Pakistan. And if an Indian of your education and exposure knows so little, then what does that say for the 99% of Indians who do not have that exposure?
As a psychiatrist, you must agree that people can be influenced by media, by biases, by lies, etc. This is specially true, when such people do not have any information to counter the lies. Americans will believe whatever Bush and CNN say about Iraq, since their minds are vacuums when it comes to Iraq. But they will not believe the same thing about Idaho or Mexico. If the Americans knew more about Iraq, they would be able to differentiate between govt. propoganda and the truth.
Isn`t it a sad state of affairs that an educated Indian like yourself, knows next to nothing about Pakistan? A country which borders it. And isn`t it an even worse state of affairs, when despite knowing next to nothing about Pakistan, Indians hold such strong negative views about Pakistan. How can one form views about someone one has no knowledge of. For lack of a better word, I would describe this lack of knowledge and lack of effort to gain this knowledge as pathetic (pardon my Punjabi).
I think there are topics about India which I have more knowledge than even you do. A few that come to mind are the Indian IT industry, Indian movie and music industry and the Indian military. Is there any topic in the world related to Pakistan, that you have more knowledge than me about, including own your field of medicine?
I spend most of my working day with Indians. I eat with them, talk with them, watch their movies, go to their shows. I try my best to understand them, so that my views aren`t biased. Have you ever made such an effort? How many Pakistani families do you know? How many do you hang around with? How many Pakistani shows have you gone to? Have you ever made an effort to understand Pakistan to counter the venom thrown at you by your govt. and media?
The above is true, in general, for Pakistanis and for Indians. I am just using you and me as an example.
Why can I discuss India for hours with my Indian colleagues? While they are completely clueless about Pakistan? Why do they get so confused when they meet Pakistanis, and realize that the Pakistanis don`t fit into the media dominated evil picture painted by their govt.? Why don`t they make an equivalent effort to understand Pakistan? Much like the Pakistanis do to understand India? Why is that every Indian delegation that comes to Pakistan ends up saying it is not what they thought it would be?
Why do Indians get emotional, and start descrbing the evils of Pakistan, when Pakistani present arguments about Kashmir which involve human rights organizations and self-determination for human being? Why not stick to the point? India can still be wrong, even if Pakistan is evil. And how can they so confidently describe those evils, when they have so little knowledge of the place? Why is it Pakistanis are willing to look for solutions to problems with India, outside the Indo-Pak spectrum, through third parties? While Indians are only willing to accept solutions that suit India. If India will not accept a purely Pakistani solution, how does it expect Pakistan to accept a purely Indian solution?
Why not allow outside parties to help us solve problems? Shouldn`t we be convinced by now that we cannot solve those problems ourselves?
I think a lot of this has to do with the lack of effort of Indians to go beyond their govts.` views in understanding Pakistan. This is what leads to the lack of introspection, I was talking about. Indians are dead convinced Pakistan is wrong, even when provided with logic. This is because their govt. has convinced them that Pakistan is the devil, and they have no information or experience of their own to counter their govt. with. This leads to Ta state of denial about their own wrongdoings in areas like Kashmir etc.
If Indians made an effort to understand Pakistan beyond a website, they would, I think, challenge their own govt. I say this because I have found nearly all Indians to be quite reasonable people. When reasonable people at an individual level, behave so unreasonably at the national level, to the point of accepting their own govts.` policies of blaming Pakistan for everything while not allowing any third party/human rights inspections, then it indicates quite a bit of brainwashing.
This brainwashing would not be successful, if Indians made a legitimate effort to understand Pakistan. The reason Pakistanis are willing to go half-way and criticize both India and Pakistan, is because they have made an effort to understand India, and definitely understand it better than vice-versa. As I stated, I don`t need a website to form views about India. I have made a deliberate effort to understand it, myself. And probably knew more about it at the age of fifteen than you know about Pakistan in your 40s. You will find this to be true of most Pakistanis, in comparison with Indians.
Until Indians make such an effort, I am not sure they can make a genuine claim about being friends with Pakistan. How can someone claim friendship, when they are unwilling to even understand who the other person is? What if we turn out to be the fanatically religous terrorist that the Indian govt. and movies etc. keeps painting us to be to its populace? Shouldn`t you figure that out first?
If you are unwilling to figure that out, then I think you are not keeping your end of the bargain. Friendship has to be based on understanding. And that understanding will never develop, as long as Indians continue to hold such strong views against Pakistan, while having no knowledge of the country and its people. They will never see anything wrong with India`s views and will always see everything wrong with Pakistan` views. And will never agree to friendship with Pakistan, until Pakistan accepts everything on India`s terms.
This is a great tragedy.
#109 Posted by rsridhar on July 18, 2003 9:34:53 pm
re:#81 by ahmadzai
You seem to miss the point. A British P.M mentioned Kashmir in reference to Islamic terrorism. No western power gives a damn to Paki viewpoint. Nobody believes that the terrorists are freedom fighters.
Sridhar
You seem to miss the point. A British P.M mentioned Kashmir in reference to Islamic terrorism. No western power gives a damn to Paki viewpoint. Nobody believes that the terrorists are freedom fighters.
Sridhar
#108 Posted by harimau on July 18, 2003 9:27:33 pm
Ref Assad_K #95
[In terms of India sending Jehadi fanatics to fight in its disputed region with China... er, what? Is there a subjugated population there that I missed?]
Yeah, you did miss the oppressed Muslims of Xinjiang. You Pakistanis have been shedding so many tears for Chechnyans, Kosovars, Bosnians, Kashmiris and the Palestinians that you have none left for the Uighurs of Xinjiang/East Turkestan.
[With refugess having flooded into India, and coming across every day?]
I suppose you want us to believe that a couple of million Kashmiri refugees are living in Pakistan. And more coming in daily.
[Last time that happened, the Indian army packed them into training camps and called them `Mukhti Bahini`.]
You think the Bangladeshis are so incompetent that they cannot organize a guerrilla army even when their women were raped and their men were killed? Oops, I forgot, the East Bengalis were almost Hindus... dark-skinned and wearing dhotis and saris as opposed to the fair-skinned martial race of Pakistan which wears the unisex salwar-kameez.
[And hey, later RAW got itself involved with those characters called the Liberation Tigers of something, didn`t they? And for a long time, the LTTE were the world masters of the suicide attack. Aint that something. Come to think of it, where does the LTTE even now get its donations and equipment?]
For a while, from India. The majority of their money has always came from expatriate Sri Lankan Tamils in Canada, UK and Australia. They levy a 10% tithe on on all expatriate Eelam Tamils` income. Go read up on the LTTE.
[Funnily, India had bases for Tibetans to train in guerilla warfare someime in the 50s and 60s.]
Yes. It was done by the CIA.
[India has also provided bases for Nepalese guerillas against the Nepalese monarchy (communist guerillas, I think they were). ]
Nope, not Communists. India supported the Nepalese Congress in their demands for democracy.
You must have finished your higher studies in the US by now. So you must have some free time for other than just the Friday evening prayers at the local mosque. Try a library. Unless you have been deported back to Pakistan. In which case, we all know which is the only book all the libraries have.
[In terms of India sending Jehadi fanatics to fight in its disputed region with China... er, what? Is there a subjugated population there that I missed?]
Yeah, you did miss the oppressed Muslims of Xinjiang. You Pakistanis have been shedding so many tears for Chechnyans, Kosovars, Bosnians, Kashmiris and the Palestinians that you have none left for the Uighurs of Xinjiang/East Turkestan.
[With refugess having flooded into India, and coming across every day?]
I suppose you want us to believe that a couple of million Kashmiri refugees are living in Pakistan. And more coming in daily.
[Last time that happened, the Indian army packed them into training camps and called them `Mukhti Bahini`.]
You think the Bangladeshis are so incompetent that they cannot organize a guerrilla army even when their women were raped and their men were killed? Oops, I forgot, the East Bengalis were almost Hindus... dark-skinned and wearing dhotis and saris as opposed to the fair-skinned martial race of Pakistan which wears the unisex salwar-kameez.
[And hey, later RAW got itself involved with those characters called the Liberation Tigers of something, didn`t they? And for a long time, the LTTE were the world masters of the suicide attack. Aint that something. Come to think of it, where does the LTTE even now get its donations and equipment?]
For a while, from India. The majority of their money has always came from expatriate Sri Lankan Tamils in Canada, UK and Australia. They levy a 10% tithe on on all expatriate Eelam Tamils` income. Go read up on the LTTE.
[Funnily, India had bases for Tibetans to train in guerilla warfare someime in the 50s and 60s.]
Yes. It was done by the CIA.
[India has also provided bases for Nepalese guerillas against the Nepalese monarchy (communist guerillas, I think they were). ]
Nope, not Communists. India supported the Nepalese Congress in their demands for democracy.
You must have finished your higher studies in the US by now. So you must have some free time for other than just the Friday evening prayers at the local mosque. Try a library. Unless you have been deported back to Pakistan. In which case, we all know which is the only book all the libraries have.
#107 Posted by rsridhar on July 18, 2003 9:27:22 pm
re: Field Marshal`s delusions
Will this guy ever stop deluding himself?
F.M says:
``Most of all, one sees a more objective assessment of Pakistan vis-a-vis India, now, amongst Pakistanis. Pakistanis accept that India has been more successful in certain areas, like IT and entertainment, democrcatic institutions, etc. Yet, I have never seen any Indian claiming Pakistani superiority on this site, or in other places, in anything other than Cricket.``
Let me say this. On an average, Pakis are perhaps better built and better looking. They certainly cannot take credit for what is a gift of geography and genes!
And yes, on an average, they have played better cricket over the years. They used to be world champions in Squash at one time.
My ideas really run out here. What else is Pakistan good at? Pak certainly showed better economic growth than India in the first 4 decades after independence. India was building infrastructure but Pak had it easy. It just latched on to its western masters (mainly USA), who filled its coffers with aid. To this day, Pak seeks loans and debt relief from USA.
F.M says that Pakis are more introspective. High time! But is that introspection proving to be of any use? Just introspecting about one`s and neighbour`s problems is no good. Pak lacks democratic mechanisms to give a concrete shape to aspirations of its masses. Mere introspection, in this scenario, can be a frustrating thing.
I am not sure i can say that all the articles coming out of Pak are objective. What about PTV? What about the Urdu press? Are they being objective? Some English newspapers in Pak are more objective than others. I particularly like Dawn. Some good analysis can be seen in TFT.
``Are you or any other Indian willing to say that India is wrong in Siachen and it is a uselss military offensive, that is still going on? This, in itself, is a good litmus test for the argument I am making in this reply. The Indian General who orchestrated Siachen, Gen. Chibber, gets invited to Pakistan as a guest speaker, openly.``
What is the big deal about inviting an ex-General to speak in Pak?
Anyway, the Siachen issue is very stupid and frustrating.
Here is one article from a website detailing the Siachen saga. India apparently responded to a cartographic error in the past that started showing Siachen as a part of Pakistan following a number of mountaneous expeditions from Paki side. Siachen really was in a no-man`s zone, belonging neither to India nor to Pak. India responded by sending in troops and occupying that area. I think India should have taken up the matter thr` diplomatic channels. But would that have helped. India, being an adversery, always views every military move by Pak with suspicion. If India had not occupied siachen, Pak Army would have. That is how the situation is between the 2 countries.
Url: http://insaf.net/pipermail/sacw_insaf.net/1999/000088.html
I,for one, believe that Siachen is a useless piece of territorry. This is one area where some progress can be made between India and Pak.
In another research article, authors argue that this place can be made into a research area, where both India and Pak can interact and benefit. Url:
http://www.cmc.sandia.gov/Links/about/papers/SAND98-0505-2/980505-2-20.html
``The concept introduced in this paper is to substitute a scientific presence in the Siachen region for the military one. The goal of establishing a ``Siachen Science Center`` would be to satisfy the requirement for a national presence in the area that would help ensure terms of a military disengagement agreement, while advancing the cause of science in many fields. The project could be conducted cooperatively between the Indians and Pakistanis but with the possibility of other regional and international participants and sponsors.``
Field Marshal says:
``I think Pakistanis are ready to accept third party mediation to create peace between Pakistan and India. They are willing to let others decide, be it UN, America, Human Rights organizations, etc. on who is right and who is wrong. This should be considered as an acceptance by Pakistan, that they are willing to openly state that they have made mistakes.
Yet India is completely opposed to it.``
Pakistan has also readily accepted its secondary role in fighting taliban, accepted US forces in Pak soil, accepted sending Army to Iraq in principle. So, what is new?
There is something called self-respect, which most Pakis lack. Otherwise they would not keep on harping on third party mediation. Why do Pakis think that a third party mediation would be favorable to them? Having been a client state of US in much of last 40 years, Pak has no problem in asking US to mediate. India refuses because India does not see it as something that would be in its interest. Shimla agreement, Lahore agreements were made between elected representatives of the 2 countries and are mechanisms by which this problem can be addressed.
Why did India refuse to send troops to Iraq? After all Iraq is a muslim country and India had much to gain from making the sole superpower happy. BJP was not sure of the public response. Opinion polls showed that this would be an unpopular move with the masses (majority of who are by the way Hindus). So, ABV had to bite the bullet and refuse to send troops to Iraq. ABV derives his strength from the masses who have elected him. He is answerable to him. Mushy, the dictator is now-a-days answering only to Uncle Sam. How much introspection has gone in Paki press about this fact? Why did Mushy agree to send in troops without a national consensus?
Talking of introspection, here is another thing. How many Paki newspapers have reported on the fund of goodwill that has been generated in India recently by the plight of the toddler from Pakistan who underwent surgery in a Bangalore hospital. I did not see any mention of this in any of the Paki newspapers whereas the Indian media was full of this. Paki newspapers regularly report any bad happening in India but black out good things.
Go to the following Url and see for yourselves what i mean:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jul/16guest.htm
``In one case, we have Palak Muchhal, an 11-year-old singer from Indore, who is ready to raise money to help save Noor`s life -- to give the Pakistani child a fresh lease on life. Sify.com`s description of her thoughts: `An Indian singing prodigy offered Saturday to help raise funds for a two-year-old Pakistani girl with a hole in the heart who traveled here for treatment in the first bus from Pakistan in 18 months. Eleven-year-old Palak Muchhal along with Indian doctor Vinod Bhandari asked baby Noor Fatima`s parents to come to their hometown Indore in the central Indian state of Madhya Pradesh for the surgery. ``Palak and the hospital would bear the entire expense needed for plugging the hole in Fatima`s heart, as we have successfully done so in a number of cases earlier,`` Bhandari told the Press Trust of India news agency.
On the other hand, a young Pakistani man not much older than Palak, quoted in the Friday Times, says `When I kill the Hindus, I feel as if the blood of Mohammad bin Qasim is running through my veins and I have come closer to Allah.` ``
Animosity against Pak in India is due to the damage that jehadists and terrorists have been doing at the instigation of Pak army and establishments for many years now. It became widespread after Kargil. But hatred against India in Pak is more deep rooted and is due to careful indoctrination from school level onwards. I do not have to spell out which is temporary and which is permanent.
Sridhar
Will this guy ever stop deluding himself?
F.M says:
``Most of all, one sees a more objective assessment of Pakistan vis-a-vis India, now, amongst Pakistanis. Pakistanis accept that India has been more successful in certain areas, like IT and entertainment, democrcatic institutions, etc. Yet, I have never seen any Indian claiming Pakistani superiority on this site, or in other places, in anything other than Cricket.``
Let me say this. On an average, Pakis are perhaps better built and better looking. They certainly cannot take credit for what is a gift of geography and genes!
And yes, on an average, they have played better cricket over the years. They used to be world champions in Squash at one time.
My ideas really run out here. What else is Pakistan good at? Pak certainly showed better economic growth than India in the first 4 decades after independence. India was building infrastructure but Pak had it easy. It just latched on to its western masters (mainly USA), who filled its coffers with aid. To this day, Pak seeks loans and debt relief from USA.
F.M says that Pakis are more introspective. High time! But is that introspection proving to be of any use? Just introspecting about one`s and neighbour`s problems is no good. Pak lacks democratic mechanisms to give a concrete shape to aspirations of its masses. Mere introspection, in this scenario, can be a frustrating thing.
I am not sure i can say that all the articles coming out of Pak are objective. What about PTV? What about the Urdu press? Are they being objective? Some English newspapers in Pak are more objective than others. I particularly like Dawn. Some good analysis can be seen in TFT.
``Are you or any other Indian willing to say that India is wrong in Siachen and it is a uselss military offensive, that is still going on? This, in itself, is a good litmus test for the argument I am making in this reply. The Indian General who orchestrated Siachen, Gen. Chibber, gets invited to Pakistan as a guest speaker, openly.``
What is the big deal about inviting an ex-General to speak in Pak?
Anyway, the Siachen issue is very stupid and frustrating.
Here is one article from a website detailing the Siachen saga. India apparently responded to a cartographic error in the past that started showing Siachen as a part of Pakistan following a number of mountaneous expeditions from Paki side. Siachen really was in a no-man`s zone, belonging neither to India nor to Pak. India responded by sending in troops and occupying that area. I think India should have taken up the matter thr` diplomatic channels. But would that have helped. India, being an adversery, always views every military move by Pak with suspicion. If India had not occupied siachen, Pak Army would have. That is how the situation is between the 2 countries.
Url: http://insaf.net/pipermail/sacw_insaf.net/1999/000088.html
I,for one, believe that Siachen is a useless piece of territorry. This is one area where some progress can be made between India and Pak.
In another research article, authors argue that this place can be made into a research area, where both India and Pak can interact and benefit. Url:
http://www.cmc.sandia.gov/Links/about/papers/SAND98-0505-2/980505-2-20.html
``The concept introduced in this paper is to substitute a scientific presence in the Siachen region for the military one. The goal of establishing a ``Siachen Science Center`` would be to satisfy the requirement for a national presence in the area that would help ensure terms of a military disengagement agreement, while advancing the cause of science in many fields. The project could be conducted cooperatively between the Indians and Pakistanis but with the possibility of other regional and international participants and sponsors.``
Field Marshal says:
``I think Pakistanis are ready to accept third party mediation to create peace between Pakistan and India. They are willing to let others decide, be it UN, America, Human Rights organizations, etc. on who is right and who is wrong. This should be considered as an acceptance by Pakistan, that they are willing to openly state that they have made mistakes.
Yet India is completely opposed to it.``
Pakistan has also readily accepted its secondary role in fighting taliban, accepted US forces in Pak soil, accepted sending Army to Iraq in principle. So, what is new?
There is something called self-respect, which most Pakis lack. Otherwise they would not keep on harping on third party mediation. Why do Pakis think that a third party mediation would be favorable to them? Having been a client state of US in much of last 40 years, Pak has no problem in asking US to mediate. India refuses because India does not see it as something that would be in its interest. Shimla agreement, Lahore agreements were made between elected representatives of the 2 countries and are mechanisms by which this problem can be addressed.
Why did India refuse to send troops to Iraq? After all Iraq is a muslim country and India had much to gain from making the sole superpower happy. BJP was not sure of the public response. Opinion polls showed that this would be an unpopular move with the masses (majority of who are by the way Hindus). So, ABV had to bite the bullet and refuse to send troops to Iraq. ABV derives his strength from the masses who have elected him. He is answerable to him. Mushy, the dictator is now-a-days answering only to Uncle Sam. How much introspection has gone in Paki press about this fact? Why did Mushy agree to send in troops without a national consensus?
Talking of introspection, here is another thing. How many Paki newspapers have reported on the fund of goodwill that has been generated in India recently by the plight of the toddler from Pakistan who underwent surgery in a Bangalore hospital. I did not see any mention of this in any of the Paki newspapers whereas the Indian media was full of this. Paki newspapers regularly report any bad happening in India but black out good things.
Go to the following Url and see for yourselves what i mean:
http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/jul/16guest.htm
``In one case, we have Palak Muchhal, an 11-year-old singer from Indore, who is ready to raise money to help save Noor`s life -- to give the Pakistani child a fresh lease on life. Sify.com`s description of her thoughts: `An Indian singing prodigy offered Saturday to help raise funds for a two-year-old Pakistani girl with a hole in the heart who traveled here for treatment in the first bus from Pakistan in 18 months. Eleven-year-old Palak Muchhal along with Indian doctor Vinod Bhandari asked baby Noor Fatima`s parents to come to their hometown Indore in the central Indian state of Madhya Pradesh for the surgery. ``Palak and the hospital would bear the entire expense needed for plugging the hole in Fatima`s heart, as we have successfully done so in a number of cases earlier,`` Bhandari told the Press Trust of India news agency.
On the other hand, a young Pakistani man not much older than Palak, quoted in the Friday Times, says `When I kill the Hindus, I feel as if the blood of Mohammad bin Qasim is running through my veins and I have come closer to Allah.` ``
Animosity against Pak in India is due to the damage that jehadists and terrorists have been doing at the instigation of Pak army and establishments for many years now. It became widespread after Kargil. But hatred against India in Pak is more deep rooted and is due to careful indoctrination from school level onwards. I do not have to spell out which is temporary and which is permanent.
Sridhar
#106 Posted by SameerJB on July 18, 2003 9:09:08 pm
Hassan Nasir:
Good to see you interacting here with a variety of chowkies. I actually said same thing some three years ago that many of the events taking place in Pakistan are the beads of same string. Same people then also called these conspiracy theories because they failed to see, or did not want to see the synergy between various events. It is not a matter of cognition or intuition but facts speak for themselves. I pointed out that Kargil crisis, agents of then intelligence agencies bragging about end of civilian government within 60 days (Qazi Hussein Ahmed was one such person chanting this mantra daily), surge in law and order situation due to surge in sectarian violence, freeing of sectarian terrorists from jails upon military demand for strategic depth policy and ending with overthrow of civilian government. As soon as Musharraf came to power, all sectarion terrorism came to abrupt halt. The answer to one of the interactor still very active was that sectarian terrorists are scared of Musharraf. Musharraf fully backed Taliban, Islamists and jihadis until he was awakened by a phone call from Washington DC after 9/11 and the relationship between some terrorists and military soured.
Later, still not fully distanced from jihadis, ISI and Musharraf used variety of techniques mostly to keep NS and BB parties from winning but also helped MMA in many many ways to win elections in NWFP and Balochistan. Things like BA degrees for contestants were eased for mullahs, accepting madrassah certificate equivalent to BA while Lincoln Inn degrees were challenged, terrorists were released from the jail, Azam Tariq - the master terrorist was not only released but he voted for Musharraf backed Jamali and even on LFO, MMA is ready to set a deadline for uniform issue but not challenging farcical referenudum that made him president on the first place. MMA does not call Musharraf criminal, illegitmate and illegal ruler of Pakistan. Why should they. He has benefited MMA like nobody ever did.
The responsiblity of the Quetta carnage has been claimed by Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, which is banned but almost none of its leaders is under arrest, just like the leadership of LeT, HuM, etc etc. In the history of sectarina violence of last 10 years, only one person has been tried and hanged and that too due to pressure from Iranian government for the murder of one of her consulate. So much for the iron hand daling with sectarian terrorists - plain bs. They have overlapping interests with military in their myopic strategies to defend Pakistan, mostly from internal enemies.
Guess what. They have identified two Pashtun killers, with no link established with any group. Oh! they hated shias and that is it. Thus far more people have been arrested in Lahore for flying kites after Punjab government banning it due to the use of metal wires which killed 20 people during last 6 months, than sectarian terrorists. Don`t be dishartened to see interactors here supporting Musharraf no matter what. They supported him when he was in bed with terrorists, Islamists and jihadis and they support him when he is against them. They will continue to support him even if he sells Pakistan to his buddies from military, piece by piece, acre by acre, industry by industry and all the top establishment jobs in civilian area. Some of these are running universities and their wives are determining which book should be banned and for what purpose. Perhaps, they flunked exams because of those books.
Basically one can categorize people who are supporting Musharraf here and elsewhere. They are former military men, children or nephews of military officers, BB haters, NS haters, some because of his Syed credentials, some because of his Urdu-speaking background and a whole lot of them because of hating Panjab and Panjabis. Most of Musharraf supporters would also support breaking of the monoply of Panjab either dividing it into three provinces like India or having quotas or some other means to lower the power of majority of Pakistanis because they happen to live in Panjab. Musharraf has not disappointed them. He has tried has best to promote mostly non-Panjabis in military, with least number of Panjabi core commanders at present.
So basically it is not for any quality Musharraf has exhibited but it is hate for other politicians, ethnicities, and military backgrounds that is putting so many people in the same boat. They do have two things to present again and again in support of dictator and they are 3500+ points index of stock exchange and 10 billion dollars of foreign reserves. Not an iota of amyhting else worth mentioning. Having seen Nasdaq going from 5000+ to 1400 without economy shrinking three fold in USA, a case for stock index`s direct proportionality to the strength of the economy can not be made. The forex reserves stood at 1 or 1.5 billions on the eve of 9/11 and since then benefited from siding with the USA on war on terror. Some of the forex was bought in open market at 1.5 percent premium than market exchange rate and exchange rate happens to be lower now than at the time of buying close to 5 billion dollars in the open market. Pakistan asked very low end loss to the economy due to war on terrorism and most expert including US central command figured it to be much higher (close to 10 billion dollars) but US compensated for the 1.5 billion Pakistan proposed.
In foreign policy, right now Pakistan`s relations with all three neighbors are at all time low. Iran is not happy, India is not happy and lately Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan is not happy either, yet we are making no effort to expatriate millions of Afghan refugess and millions of illegal Bengalis in Pakistan.
As I said in my ilog, the present government is nothing more than a Criminal Enterprise. The synergy between sectarian terrorism, jihadis in Kashmir and previously in the form of Pakistani Talibans, intelliegence agencies, overthrowing civilian rule and chewing up Pakistan in every whcih way exists for any body with open eyes and mind to see. Labelling it conspiracy theory does not whitewash the clear overlaps again and again. If nothing else, Maulana Azam Tariq of SSP is absolutely clear proof of it.
Good to see you interacting here with a variety of chowkies. I actually said same thing some three years ago that many of the events taking place in Pakistan are the beads of same string. Same people then also called these conspiracy theories because they failed to see, or did not want to see the synergy between various events. It is not a matter of cognition or intuition but facts speak for themselves. I pointed out that Kargil crisis, agents of then intelligence agencies bragging about end of civilian government within 60 days (Qazi Hussein Ahmed was one such person chanting this mantra daily), surge in law and order situation due to surge in sectarian violence, freeing of sectarian terrorists from jails upon military demand for strategic depth policy and ending with overthrow of civilian government. As soon as Musharraf came to power, all sectarion terrorism came to abrupt halt. The answer to one of the interactor still very active was that sectarian terrorists are scared of Musharraf. Musharraf fully backed Taliban, Islamists and jihadis until he was awakened by a phone call from Washington DC after 9/11 and the relationship between some terrorists and military soured.
Later, still not fully distanced from jihadis, ISI and Musharraf used variety of techniques mostly to keep NS and BB parties from winning but also helped MMA in many many ways to win elections in NWFP and Balochistan. Things like BA degrees for contestants were eased for mullahs, accepting madrassah certificate equivalent to BA while Lincoln Inn degrees were challenged, terrorists were released from the jail, Azam Tariq - the master terrorist was not only released but he voted for Musharraf backed Jamali and even on LFO, MMA is ready to set a deadline for uniform issue but not challenging farcical referenudum that made him president on the first place. MMA does not call Musharraf criminal, illegitmate and illegal ruler of Pakistan. Why should they. He has benefited MMA like nobody ever did.
The responsiblity of the Quetta carnage has been claimed by Lashkar-e-Jhangvi, which is banned but almost none of its leaders is under arrest, just like the leadership of LeT, HuM, etc etc. In the history of sectarina violence of last 10 years, only one person has been tried and hanged and that too due to pressure from Iranian government for the murder of one of her consulate. So much for the iron hand daling with sectarian terrorists - plain bs. They have overlapping interests with military in their myopic strategies to defend Pakistan, mostly from internal enemies.
Guess what. They have identified two Pashtun killers, with no link established with any group. Oh! they hated shias and that is it. Thus far more people have been arrested in Lahore for flying kites after Punjab government banning it due to the use of metal wires which killed 20 people during last 6 months, than sectarian terrorists. Don`t be dishartened to see interactors here supporting Musharraf no matter what. They supported him when he was in bed with terrorists, Islamists and jihadis and they support him when he is against them. They will continue to support him even if he sells Pakistan to his buddies from military, piece by piece, acre by acre, industry by industry and all the top establishment jobs in civilian area. Some of these are running universities and their wives are determining which book should be banned and for what purpose. Perhaps, they flunked exams because of those books.
Basically one can categorize people who are supporting Musharraf here and elsewhere. They are former military men, children or nephews of military officers, BB haters, NS haters, some because of his Syed credentials, some because of his Urdu-speaking background and a whole lot of them because of hating Panjab and Panjabis. Most of Musharraf supporters would also support breaking of the monoply of Panjab either dividing it into three provinces like India or having quotas or some other means to lower the power of majority of Pakistanis because they happen to live in Panjab. Musharraf has not disappointed them. He has tried has best to promote mostly non-Panjabis in military, with least number of Panjabi core commanders at present.
So basically it is not for any quality Musharraf has exhibited but it is hate for other politicians, ethnicities, and military backgrounds that is putting so many people in the same boat. They do have two things to present again and again in support of dictator and they are 3500+ points index of stock exchange and 10 billion dollars of foreign reserves. Not an iota of amyhting else worth mentioning. Having seen Nasdaq going from 5000+ to 1400 without economy shrinking three fold in USA, a case for stock index`s direct proportionality to the strength of the economy can not be made. The forex reserves stood at 1 or 1.5 billions on the eve of 9/11 and since then benefited from siding with the USA on war on terror. Some of the forex was bought in open market at 1.5 percent premium than market exchange rate and exchange rate happens to be lower now than at the time of buying close to 5 billion dollars in the open market. Pakistan asked very low end loss to the economy due to war on terrorism and most expert including US central command figured it to be much higher (close to 10 billion dollars) but US compensated for the 1.5 billion Pakistan proposed.
In foreign policy, right now Pakistan`s relations with all three neighbors are at all time low. Iran is not happy, India is not happy and lately Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan is not happy either, yet we are making no effort to expatriate millions of Afghan refugess and millions of illegal Bengalis in Pakistan.
As I said in my ilog, the present government is nothing more than a Criminal Enterprise. The synergy between sectarian terrorism, jihadis in Kashmir and previously in the form of Pakistani Talibans, intelliegence agencies, overthrowing civilian rule and chewing up Pakistan in every whcih way exists for any body with open eyes and mind to see. Labelling it conspiracy theory does not whitewash the clear overlaps again and again. If nothing else, Maulana Azam Tariq of SSP is absolutely clear proof of it.
#105 Posted by faisaluno on July 18, 2003 9:09:08 pm
esteemed editors:
what the hell? get off your high horse, this is how the other half speaks in pak including our information minister. post this comment and see if people find it offensive:
Stuka:
maulana sahib nain shalwar utar dee hai. dont make him take off his kameez as well. you might not like what you see.
#104 Posted by Assad_K on July 18, 2003 8:48:55 pm
Arjun,
We all know the foot power and the ideological power behind the BJP and its affilates. The BJP gets voted in, but its ideology lies in the RSS etc. I apologize for being technically inaccurate.
We all know the foot power and the ideological power behind the BJP and its affilates. The BJP gets voted in, but its ideology lies in the RSS etc. I apologize for being technically inaccurate.
#103 Posted by shankar on July 18, 2003 8:47:25 pm
Romair,
Heheh...what do you do?...keep track of my posts cos they git you right in the craw?
As you love to point out
I dont have expertise in anything (esp compared to you & your motley crew of insignificant experts);
who`s words you breatlessly quote as you spin your arguments!...please understand that this is a poor brahmin`s observations after talking about Pakistan (amongst various other issues) to a whole bunch of relatives & friends in Bombay.
Is that truly indicative of the dominant discourse of Indians?
...gee I dunno...
As stuka pointed out, India is too vast & diverse a nation to gauge by a person of my limited capabilities.
Having said that though--Bombay is the one city in India that is represented by Indians from every part of India. Its truly a melting pot of Indian cultures.
That; & being the commercial capital of India, (southern IT notwithstanding), it carries considerable clout in Indian politics.
So dont kill the messenger--OK?!
.. er..eventhough the messenger is in general agreement of the dominant discourse!:)
Since you are on this ``introspective`` kick...introspect on this:
The Indians I`ve met were VERY introspective. The MAIN focus of conversation in Bombay, these days, is how India has failed to economically & socially develop...as compared to China & S.East Asia. Pakistan figured in less than 5% of the conversations--that too cos some annoying NRI like me kept on diverting the subject to Pakistan:)
Ok--bottom line....
Some of the dominant discourse(s), I picked up:
1)Indian Democracy has impeded the gutsy & rapid changes that are needed to liberalise India`s economy--like China did...China is admired (& envied) by Indians--eventhough some of the differences are deep; there is more trust, admiration & goodwill towards China than I have seen in any other time.
2)Nehru dynasty did much more harm for India than help...
3)It IS possible for India to reach its potential
liberalisation has done much more good than harm & people feel they have more control over their destiny (& wallet). Indians I came across acknowledge that
but wistfully concede that India has done a poor job in these past 55 yrs to improve the plight of the poor--esp as compared to China..
OK--What about Pakistan?
This is the jist of how the ``Indian`` mind (atleast the ones I`ve come across) thinks & feels..
{{Now, my dear brothers from Pakistan, before you read this--please be advised that this is how the Indians I`ve met FEEL. Now whether I/they are right/wrong/misinformed/brainwashed
lets leave that to Allah`s capable Hands; shall we?
Afterall, should the Romairs & Urstrlys of this cyberworld pontificate that Indians (or Hindians) have a very twisted sense of values & are incapable of empathy or a modicum of human decency....it goes without saying...the transplanted Hindian in me will thump his chest & say ``who gives a crapola about what a bunch of dumb Pakis feel about us?....I mean..who frikking died & made THEM Allah?!...besides any Hindian with HALF a brain wont voluntarily want to go into a dimension called jannat....}}
There is a deep love & attachment of the LAND that human beings feel
& sometimes that transcends human rights..y`know matr bhoomi/ mother earth & all that good stuff...
India has ACCEPTED that a part of British India ceded & became Pakistan. Even the most radical RSS fundo doesnt consider the land of Pakistan or its people as a covetted ``property``. But I havent met a single Indian who wants another Partition on religious basis.
So the line is getting clearly drawn in Kashmir. At the VERY most India will grudgingly agree to make the LoC the international border. Indians DO acknowledge that innocent civilians get killed in Kashmir everyday...that Indian jawaans are dying & India will do better developmentally if Kashmir becomes independant. But thats the price that the Indian population has been willing to pay (endure)
right, wrong or indifferent... The fact that NO international power has backed Pakistan vociferously has also made Indians feel that they have successfully fought back the guerella war--both on diplomatic & military front.
On a ``people-to-people`` basis there is a great sense of emotional/cultural/spiritual comraderie & goodwill that Indians feel towards the people of Pakistan...& Indians do feel that both countries would be better off if their respective politicians were collected & put into an ICBM & sent into outer space.
The problem is Indians dont TRUST Musharraf. His grandstanding sweeping statements & interviews make it worse. Mushy is seen as the PRINCIPAL guy who sabotaged the Lahore Peace Process that Vaju initiated
by being the chief architect & sponsor of Kargil. That is a PROFOUND betrayal. Jesus Christ; you welcome our PM while executing Kargil behind his back? How the HELL does one TRUST your govt?! Trust is something that is EARNED--not DEMANDED!!
Then when he gets caught redhanded, Mushy goes on international TV & LIES! & then when the rest of the world isnt buying his crap; Pakistan feebly tries to justify it by bringing up Siachen!! Jeeze, if the Peace Process was allowed to flower; Siachen would have been SOLVED, by now!!
no;- but the GLORIOUS military of Pakistan had other plans!
Vaju makes another magnanimous gesture & invites Mushy over. He comes over to Agra--huffs & puffs & grandstands & walks away pouting. Hey! maybe his behavior scored brownie points with Pakistanis...but what I gather, the average Indian concluded that this prick has taken an in-your-face adverserial role vis-a-vis India & feels he can actually wear India down by subtle threats that he is willing to let India bleed in Kashmir.
Well, history HAS recorded 2 major defeats for Mushy:
a) when Bush twisted his arm he meekly justified a ``strategic retreat`` & publicly pledged to do what Indians have been asking him to do in Agra.
b) Its openly acknowlegded by most ``sane`` Pakistanis that the Bleed India in Kashmir has hurt Pakistan more than its hurt India.
....BUT...Mushy claims he`s protecting & preserving Pakistan`s HONOR!!
What honor?!
How honorable is it to give Bush a Monica, even in Camp David?!
For 600 million a yr; yaar....he better have been good:)!!
Seems to me, Mushy believes HONOR for Pakistan is SYNONYMOUS with HONOR for his beloved army. Nothing...but nothing.. pleases a US administration (esp a REPUBLICAN administration) than a compliant dictator they can control..
How honorable is it for Pakistan to lick the boots of the Arabs--just to get polite murmurs of solidarity (& subsidised oil) & then have the PLO consider the Govt of India ``a great friend of the Palestinians``?!.
...Either Pakistani diplomats are stupid or Indians are genious` in outwitting them in their own game.
Nope...I have yet to come across an Indian who has liked, respected or trusted Mushy.
So thats the legacy of your army.
Frankly, Indians dont give a Sh*t what your army does to your country.
Hey, you pray to them--you DESERVE them.
India got along reasonably well with Zia (in retrospect he was too busy with Afghanistan to bother India). But when they start butting their nose in India
then it DOES become India`s problem.
Oh!! & please dont be so magnanimous in proclaiming that Pakistan`s SOLE motive is the well-being of the Kashmiri people--cos Pakistan is part of the problem & not part of the solution. It was meddling of your STUPID generals--remember ``strategic depth``? that made the ``freedom fighters`` entangle themselves with the mujahadeen & destroyed whatever sanctity their cause had...(ofcourse the ubiquitous treachery of the evil bania simply exploited it).
My dear cousin, please kiss your property in Shrinagar goodbye. I mean...look at it this way: atleast you have the Paradise called PoK. And if your long suffering brothers of the Kashmir valley just cant STAND being oppressed by evil, treacherous hindus; they can pack their kit & kabootle & hightail it over to frikkin` Gilgit. Afterall, its paradise--aint it?!
Cry all you want--but please wakeup & check out reality--& use some COMMON SENSE!!
Yikes! today even the Kurds have a better chance for freedom than Kashmiris!
Indians are humble towards people they respect--but poor & wretched as they are; Mushy has done diddly-squat to earn their trust. Its come to a point where many Indians feel that if by some miracle the Kashmir problem is solved; your military will find another ``issue`` to keep the fires of animosity burning.
Afterall, who reeeaaaallly stands to lose if peace breaks out between India & Pakistan??...yeah! its your ``world famous`` military!
Theres no need for all these great generals if peace beaks out? Why should they be dumb enough to make themselves anachronisms?
Heheh...what do you do?...keep track of my posts cos they git you right in the craw?
As you love to point out
I dont have expertise in anything (esp compared to you & your motley crew of insignificant experts);
who`s words you breatlessly quote as you spin your arguments!...please understand that this is a poor brahmin`s observations after talking about Pakistan (amongst various other issues) to a whole bunch of relatives & friends in Bombay.
Is that truly indicative of the dominant discourse of Indians?
...gee I dunno...
As stuka pointed out, India is too vast & diverse a nation to gauge by a person of my limited capabilities.
Having said that though--Bombay is the one city in India that is represented by Indians from every part of India. Its truly a melting pot of Indian cultures.
That; & being the commercial capital of India, (southern IT notwithstanding), it carries considerable clout in Indian politics.
So dont kill the messenger--OK?!
.. er..eventhough the messenger is in general agreement of the dominant discourse!:)
Since you are on this ``introspective`` kick...introspect on this:
The Indians I`ve met were VERY introspective. The MAIN focus of conversation in Bombay, these days, is how India has failed to economically & socially develop...as compared to China & S.East Asia. Pakistan figured in less than 5% of the conversations--that too cos some annoying NRI like me kept on diverting the subject to Pakistan:)
Ok--bottom line....
Some of the dominant discourse(s), I picked up:
1)Indian Democracy has impeded the gutsy & rapid changes that are needed to liberalise India`s economy--like China did...China is admired (& envied) by Indians--eventhough some of the differences are deep; there is more trust, admiration & goodwill towards China than I have seen in any other time.
2)Nehru dynasty did much more harm for India than help...
3)It IS possible for India to reach its potential
liberalisation has done much more good than harm & people feel they have more control over their destiny (& wallet). Indians I came across acknowledge that
but wistfully concede that India has done a poor job in these past 55 yrs to improve the plight of the poor--esp as compared to China..
OK--What about Pakistan?
This is the jist of how the ``Indian`` mind (atleast the ones I`ve come across) thinks & feels..
{{Now, my dear brothers from Pakistan, before you read this--please be advised that this is how the Indians I`ve met FEEL. Now whether I/they are right/wrong/misinformed/brainwashed
lets leave that to Allah`s capable Hands; shall we?
Afterall, should the Romairs & Urstrlys of this cyberworld pontificate that Indians (or Hindians) have a very twisted sense of values & are incapable of empathy or a modicum of human decency....it goes without saying...the transplanted Hindian in me will thump his chest & say ``who gives a crapola about what a bunch of dumb Pakis feel about us?....I mean..who frikking died & made THEM Allah?!...besides any Hindian with HALF a brain wont voluntarily want to go into a dimension called jannat....}}
There is a deep love & attachment of the LAND that human beings feel
& sometimes that transcends human rights..y`know matr bhoomi/ mother earth & all that good stuff...
India has ACCEPTED that a part of British India ceded & became Pakistan. Even the most radical RSS fundo doesnt consider the land of Pakistan or its people as a covetted ``property``. But I havent met a single Indian who wants another Partition on religious basis.
So the line is getting clearly drawn in Kashmir. At the VERY most India will grudgingly agree to make the LoC the international border. Indians DO acknowledge that innocent civilians get killed in Kashmir everyday...that Indian jawaans are dying & India will do better developmentally if Kashmir becomes independant. But thats the price that the Indian population has been willing to pay (endure)
right, wrong or indifferent... The fact that NO international power has backed Pakistan vociferously has also made Indians feel that they have successfully fought back the guerella war--both on diplomatic & military front.
On a ``people-to-people`` basis there is a great sense of emotional/cultural/spiritual comraderie & goodwill that Indians feel towards the people of Pakistan...& Indians do feel that both countries would be better off if their respective politicians were collected & put into an ICBM & sent into outer space.
The problem is Indians dont TRUST Musharraf. His grandstanding sweeping statements & interviews make it worse. Mushy is seen as the PRINCIPAL guy who sabotaged the Lahore Peace Process that Vaju initiated
by being the chief architect & sponsor of Kargil. That is a PROFOUND betrayal. Jesus Christ; you welcome our PM while executing Kargil behind his back? How the HELL does one TRUST your govt?! Trust is something that is EARNED--not DEMANDED!!
Then when he gets caught redhanded, Mushy goes on international TV & LIES! & then when the rest of the world isnt buying his crap; Pakistan feebly tries to justify it by bringing up Siachen!! Jeeze, if the Peace Process was allowed to flower; Siachen would have been SOLVED, by now!!
no;- but the GLORIOUS military of Pakistan had other plans!
Vaju makes another magnanimous gesture & invites Mushy over. He comes over to Agra--huffs & puffs & grandstands & walks away pouting. Hey! maybe his behavior scored brownie points with Pakistanis...but what I gather, the average Indian concluded that this prick has taken an in-your-face adverserial role vis-a-vis India & feels he can actually wear India down by subtle threats that he is willing to let India bleed in Kashmir.
Well, history HAS recorded 2 major defeats for Mushy:
a) when Bush twisted his arm he meekly justified a ``strategic retreat`` & publicly pledged to do what Indians have been asking him to do in Agra.
b) Its openly acknowlegded by most ``sane`` Pakistanis that the Bleed India in Kashmir has hurt Pakistan more than its hurt India.
....BUT...Mushy claims he`s protecting & preserving Pakistan`s HONOR!!
What honor?!
How honorable is it to give Bush a Monica, even in Camp David?!
For 600 million a yr; yaar....he better have been good:)!!
Seems to me, Mushy believes HONOR for Pakistan is SYNONYMOUS with HONOR for his beloved army. Nothing...but nothing.. pleases a US administration (esp a REPUBLICAN administration) than a compliant dictator they can control..
How honorable is it for Pakistan to lick the boots of the Arabs--just to get polite murmurs of solidarity (& subsidised oil) & then have the PLO consider the Govt of India ``a great friend of the Palestinians``?!.
...Either Pakistani diplomats are stupid or Indians are genious` in outwitting them in their own game.
Nope...I have yet to come across an Indian who has liked, respected or trusted Mushy.
So thats the legacy of your army.
Frankly, Indians dont give a Sh*t what your army does to your country.
Hey, you pray to them--you DESERVE them.
India got along reasonably well with Zia (in retrospect he was too busy with Afghanistan to bother India). But when they start butting their nose in India
then it DOES become India`s problem.
Oh!! & please dont be so magnanimous in proclaiming that Pakistan`s SOLE motive is the well-being of the Kashmiri people--cos Pakistan is part of the problem & not part of the solution. It was meddling of your STUPID generals--remember ``strategic depth``? that made the ``freedom fighters`` entangle themselves with the mujahadeen & destroyed whatever sanctity their cause had...(ofcourse the ubiquitous treachery of the evil bania simply exploited it).
My dear cousin, please kiss your property in Shrinagar goodbye. I mean...look at it this way: atleast you have the Paradise called PoK. And if your long suffering brothers of the Kashmir valley just cant STAND being oppressed by evil, treacherous hindus; they can pack their kit & kabootle & hightail it over to frikkin` Gilgit. Afterall, its paradise--aint it?!
Cry all you want--but please wakeup & check out reality--& use some COMMON SENSE!!
Yikes! today even the Kurds have a better chance for freedom than Kashmiris!
Indians are humble towards people they respect--but poor & wretched as they are; Mushy has done diddly-squat to earn their trust. Its come to a point where many Indians feel that if by some miracle the Kashmir problem is solved; your military will find another ``issue`` to keep the fires of animosity burning.
Afterall, who reeeaaaallly stands to lose if peace breaks out between India & Pakistan??...yeah! its your ``world famous`` military!
Theres no need for all these great generals if peace beaks out? Why should they be dumb enough to make themselves anachronisms?
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