Terrorism, Sectarianism and the Military
Hassan Nasir July 15, 2003
#214 Posted by harish_hyd on July 22, 2003 10:40:05 pm
Well for much of the civilized world, an industry would mean a factory where automobiles or electronic goods etc. are manufactured. However in Pakiland, it could well mean something very different. Is Mullah Ahmadzai listening? And no, please don`t give me the standard Paki cr@p about this article being biased against good ole` Pakiland. If you observe closely, the writer is a Paki himself.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/oneworld/20030721/wl_oneworld/105021058792550
Jihad Industry Gathers Steam in Pakistan
Mon Jul 21, 8:26 AM ET Add World - OneWorld.net to My Yahoo!
Mohammad Shehzad, OneWorld South Asia
ISLAMABAD, July 21 (OneWorld) - Fuelled by the US-led invasion of Iraq (news - web sites), and the promise of paradise after martyrdom, thousands of impoverished young Pakistanis are allegedly enrolling for jihad (holy war) despite the ongoing war against terror.
``Jihad is spreading like wildfire in Pakistan,`` claims an official in the country`s Interior Ministry. He says that according to a slew of separatist publications, between January and June 2003, Islamic groups recruited over 7,000 young boys aged between 18 and 25.
``Some of the largest separatist outfits - Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) - claim to have recruited more than 3,350 and 2,235 boys respectively during this period,`` says the official.
Jihadi groups are finding the Pakistani environment particularly receptive after the US-led attacks on Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Iraq. They use publications, web sites, local prayer leaders, cassettes, CDs, and souvenirs like file covers, badges, T-shirts and so on to lure recruits.
Millions of pamphlets featuring ballads, speeches, interviews and profiles of young jihadis are distributed free by these organizations.
For his part, Pakistan Interior Minister, Syed Faisal Saleh Hayat, maintains, ``The government is monitoring the activities of these jihadi groups and will take stern action if it got any proof or substantial evidence. But we cannot proceed against them without any evidence. The government also can`t ban them unless they are really involved in anti-state activities.``
Adds a senior Interior Ministry official, ``We simply cannot penalize people for donating their children for jihad or stop boys from joining the jihadi outfits, as all this takes place secretly. There is no official patronage.``
Officials say young men are eager to become Islam`s foot soldiers and fight for separatist groups in the world`s hottest trouble spots such as Kashmir (news - web sites) and Afghanistan.
``The young jihadis come from poor and middle-class families. When they fail to find jobs, they join jihadi outfits that provide them food and shelter and promise them paradise, which is attainable only to those who die for Allah, fighting non-believers. Thus our frustrated boys are misled and trapped,`` says columnist Gulzar Ahmad.
Significantly, as the member of a prominent separatist group remarks, ``The vast majority of boys who join the radical Islamists consist of runaways.`` He says sixty percent of them are high school dropouts.
``People`s passions are stirred when the jihadis are presented as heroes of Islam,`` says psychologist Dr Minhas.
With the Americans in the neighborhood, Islamists are having a field day. ``The US bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq is an attack on the Muslim fraternity. You will go to hell if you do not wage jihad against the US,`` thundered LeT chief Hafiz Mohammad Saeed in a recent public speech.
``Send your boys to us. We will train them and send them to Kashmir for jihad,`` invokes a message by Saeed in a CD.
In his Friday sermon at the Al-Raza mosque in the north Pakistan town of Rawalpindi, prayer leader Maulana Yousaf exhorts the assembly to ``Contact me if you want to donate your sons for Kashmir jihad.`` He boasts, ``My speeches have motivated hundreds of people to donate their sons. I have raised an army of 300 holy warriors within four months.``
Such impassioned speeches have the desired effect. Take the case of laborer Ahsan Mehmood, a father of eight, who gave two of his sons to jihad last month. ``It is better for them to die for a cause and embrace martyrdom before I kill them due to hunger,`` is how he justifies his decision.
Prayer leaders and schoolteachers are jihad`s local PR agents. Says Karim Khan, a vegetable seller from Gujranwala in the northern Punjab province, ``My 18-year-old son joined the LeT because he was influenced by his teacher`s lectures. He would tell the boys that the real world (news - Y! TV) was in paradise, which a Muslim could achieve only through martyrdom, to be secured by fighting in Kashmir.
Khan`s son played his part to the hilt. Last month, he was one of eight youngsters shot dead in Indian administered Kashmir.
That`s the kind of fate awaiting many Pakistani separatists - whether they are fighting the Americans in Afghanistan or the Indians in Kashmir. The LeT web site, for instance, says around 800 youngsters were killed fighting the Indian Army last year.
The head of the Society for Protection of Children`s Rights, Anis Jillani, says seminaries are the real constituencies of the fundamentalists. ``A large number of boys who join jihadi outfits come from the most impoverished backgrounds. They join seminaries at a tender age and are taught in the orthodox style,`` he says.
Of course, not all parents see the world in the stark, apocalyptic terms of the jihadi. Complains Maula Bux, whose son, Kalim, was killed in Kashmir in March, ``The jihadi outfits chase young boys and brainwash them.``
The recruiters tell innocent boys they will go straight to paradise if they join jihad in Kashmir. ``Young boys are swayed by this deceptive talk and desert their parents. That`s what they did to my son,`` laments Bux.
``The militants compare martyrs with Osama bin Laden (news - web sites). This tempted my son Imran, 23, to become a jihadi. He had failed to find a job, so to become famous he became a jihadi. He died in June, fighting the Indian Army in Kashmir,`` cries Sakina, 40 from Muridke in the northern Punjab province.
Though the Pakistan government has banned jihadi outfits like the LeT, JeM, Al-Badr, Harkat-ul Mujahideen and so on, they have re-surfaced under new names.
Saeed says his LeT is banned in other parts of Pakistan except Pakistan-administered Kashmir where it has a free run. Similarly, JeM chief Maulana Azhar Masood has publicly declared that Jaish is under no restrictions as long as it operates within Pakistan-administered Kashmir.
Although the government denies such recruitment, jihadi outfits have reportedly set up offices in residential areas of Pakistan cities, from where they approach the public.
``Recruitment takes place under the government`s patronage. It is the same old wine in a new bottle. The same jihadi leaders are heading the same banned jihadi outfits under new names. The government is trying to fool the public and the Americans by pretending to have distanced itself from the jihadis,`` alleges senior journalist M. Ziauddin.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/oneworld/20030721/wl_oneworld/105021058792550
Jihad Industry Gathers Steam in Pakistan
Mon Jul 21, 8:26 AM ET Add World - OneWorld.net to My Yahoo!
Mohammad Shehzad, OneWorld South Asia
ISLAMABAD, July 21 (OneWorld) - Fuelled by the US-led invasion of Iraq (news - web sites), and the promise of paradise after martyrdom, thousands of impoverished young Pakistanis are allegedly enrolling for jihad (holy war) despite the ongoing war against terror.
``Jihad is spreading like wildfire in Pakistan,`` claims an official in the country`s Interior Ministry. He says that according to a slew of separatist publications, between January and June 2003, Islamic groups recruited over 7,000 young boys aged between 18 and 25.
``Some of the largest separatist outfits - Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) - claim to have recruited more than 3,350 and 2,235 boys respectively during this period,`` says the official.
Jihadi groups are finding the Pakistani environment particularly receptive after the US-led attacks on Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Iraq. They use publications, web sites, local prayer leaders, cassettes, CDs, and souvenirs like file covers, badges, T-shirts and so on to lure recruits.
Millions of pamphlets featuring ballads, speeches, interviews and profiles of young jihadis are distributed free by these organizations.
For his part, Pakistan Interior Minister, Syed Faisal Saleh Hayat, maintains, ``The government is monitoring the activities of these jihadi groups and will take stern action if it got any proof or substantial evidence. But we cannot proceed against them without any evidence. The government also can`t ban them unless they are really involved in anti-state activities.``
Adds a senior Interior Ministry official, ``We simply cannot penalize people for donating their children for jihad or stop boys from joining the jihadi outfits, as all this takes place secretly. There is no official patronage.``
Officials say young men are eager to become Islam`s foot soldiers and fight for separatist groups in the world`s hottest trouble spots such as Kashmir (news - web sites) and Afghanistan.
``The young jihadis come from poor and middle-class families. When they fail to find jobs, they join jihadi outfits that provide them food and shelter and promise them paradise, which is attainable only to those who die for Allah, fighting non-believers. Thus our frustrated boys are misled and trapped,`` says columnist Gulzar Ahmad.
Significantly, as the member of a prominent separatist group remarks, ``The vast majority of boys who join the radical Islamists consist of runaways.`` He says sixty percent of them are high school dropouts.
``People`s passions are stirred when the jihadis are presented as heroes of Islam,`` says psychologist Dr Minhas.
With the Americans in the neighborhood, Islamists are having a field day. ``The US bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq is an attack on the Muslim fraternity. You will go to hell if you do not wage jihad against the US,`` thundered LeT chief Hafiz Mohammad Saeed in a recent public speech.
``Send your boys to us. We will train them and send them to Kashmir for jihad,`` invokes a message by Saeed in a CD.
In his Friday sermon at the Al-Raza mosque in the north Pakistan town of Rawalpindi, prayer leader Maulana Yousaf exhorts the assembly to ``Contact me if you want to donate your sons for Kashmir jihad.`` He boasts, ``My speeches have motivated hundreds of people to donate their sons. I have raised an army of 300 holy warriors within four months.``
Such impassioned speeches have the desired effect. Take the case of laborer Ahsan Mehmood, a father of eight, who gave two of his sons to jihad last month. ``It is better for them to die for a cause and embrace martyrdom before I kill them due to hunger,`` is how he justifies his decision.
Prayer leaders and schoolteachers are jihad`s local PR agents. Says Karim Khan, a vegetable seller from Gujranwala in the northern Punjab province, ``My 18-year-old son joined the LeT because he was influenced by his teacher`s lectures. He would tell the boys that the real world (news - Y! TV) was in paradise, which a Muslim could achieve only through martyrdom, to be secured by fighting in Kashmir.
Khan`s son played his part to the hilt. Last month, he was one of eight youngsters shot dead in Indian administered Kashmir.
That`s the kind of fate awaiting many Pakistani separatists - whether they are fighting the Americans in Afghanistan or the Indians in Kashmir. The LeT web site, for instance, says around 800 youngsters were killed fighting the Indian Army last year.
The head of the Society for Protection of Children`s Rights, Anis Jillani, says seminaries are the real constituencies of the fundamentalists. ``A large number of boys who join jihadi outfits come from the most impoverished backgrounds. They join seminaries at a tender age and are taught in the orthodox style,`` he says.
Of course, not all parents see the world in the stark, apocalyptic terms of the jihadi. Complains Maula Bux, whose son, Kalim, was killed in Kashmir in March, ``The jihadi outfits chase young boys and brainwash them.``
The recruiters tell innocent boys they will go straight to paradise if they join jihad in Kashmir. ``Young boys are swayed by this deceptive talk and desert their parents. That`s what they did to my son,`` laments Bux.
``The militants compare martyrs with Osama bin Laden (news - web sites). This tempted my son Imran, 23, to become a jihadi. He had failed to find a job, so to become famous he became a jihadi. He died in June, fighting the Indian Army in Kashmir,`` cries Sakina, 40 from Muridke in the northern Punjab province.
Though the Pakistan government has banned jihadi outfits like the LeT, JeM, Al-Badr, Harkat-ul Mujahideen and so on, they have re-surfaced under new names.
Saeed says his LeT is banned in other parts of Pakistan except Pakistan-administered Kashmir where it has a free run. Similarly, JeM chief Maulana Azhar Masood has publicly declared that Jaish is under no restrictions as long as it operates within Pakistan-administered Kashmir.
Although the government denies such recruitment, jihadi outfits have reportedly set up offices in residential areas of Pakistan cities, from where they approach the public.
``Recruitment takes place under the government`s patronage. It is the same old wine in a new bottle. The same jihadi leaders are heading the same banned jihadi outfits under new names. The government is trying to fool the public and the Americans by pretending to have distanced itself from the jihadis,`` alleges senior journalist M. Ziauddin.
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#213 Posted by SameerJB on July 22, 2003 9:52:00 pm
Allow me to post a very thought provoking and related to th topic feature from yesterday`s edition of Dawn. Of course, it will by rejected by the Musharraf supporters as conspiracy throies.
Military, mullah and mohajir
By Shamim-ur-Rahman
The strange marriage of convenience between the military, mullah and the mohajir movement is troubling liberal political forces. They wonder as to how long the military, led by Gen Pervez Musharraf, will be able to ride the chariot of power driven by two clashing forces such as the Muttahida Majlis-i- Amal and the Muttahida Qaumi Movement.
Some political circles believe that Gen Musharraf, after his American visit, has decided to ``tolerate`` the mullahs in the NWFP and elsewhere in recognition of their ``manipulated anti-Musharraf shows``, provided they don`t challenge his authority and help him in acquiring legitimacy through parliament.
The PML-Q and the MMA together can easily provide a parliamentary cover for Gen Musharraf to remain president and also pass an agreed draft of the LFO with a two-thirds majority.
The MMA was earlier saying it was ready to accept Gen Musharraf as president if he laid down his uniform. This was against the position taken by the PPP and the PML-N on the issue. Now the MMA has modified its position to suggest that even a date for the president to give up his COAS post will be acceptable, and indicated that the date too is negotiable.
Observers believe that the unexpected turn in Pakistan- Afghanistan relations, particularly some of the statements made by President Karzai, despite Gen Musharraf`s U-turn vis-a-vis Taliban, has prompted the Establishment here to activate a policy of live and let live with the MMA. Elements that were instrumental in helping the MMA to put its act together want the religious lobby to acquire a new look as a tolerant and forward-looking group. Perhaps Maulana Fazlur Rahman`s visit to India is also part of that image-building exercise. Perhaps, the Establishment needs the MMA`s support to implement what Gen Musharraf has promised President Bush at Camp David vis-a-vis Kashmir, Israel and the region.
The regime`s political expediency is evident from the fact that on the one hand it is dealing with the mullahs while at the same time it is sharing power with the MQM both at the centre and in Sindh despite the fact that the latter is opposed to Gen Musharraf`s local government system and is raising confederal slogans on provincial autonomy and opposing the Greater Thal Canal Project.
Some analysts are of the view that once the regime gets the MMA`s support on the LFO, it will no longer need the MQM, which they say will be dumped at the centre as well as in Sindh. But given the MMA`s reluctance to be openly identified with the general`s regime, it is hard to conceive that he would show the door to the MQM so soon.
It is strange that Gen Musharraf, who wishes to be described as a liberal, has allowed the MMA to form the government in the NWFP but made every effort to deny that right to the PPP in Sindh. The MMA is also part of the PML-Q led coalition in Balochistan, and, of course, Prof Ghafoor Ahmad won his Senate seat on the strength of PML-Q votes.
Choudhry Shujaat Hussain has always been calling publicly for an alliance with the MMA. These overtures have never been publicly rejected by the MMA, and newspaper reports had even given the names of prospective MMA ministers. This was denied by the MMA.
One tends to agree with those who believe that the MMA is the product of the Establishment. Otherwise, why was the Shariat bill presented in the NWFP assembly when a similar act already existed? Why did the governor sign it if at all it was considered to be an attempt at Talibanization? He could have sent it back to the assembly for reconsideration. Was it only to show the US that there were extreme pressures on Gen Musharraf?
It cannot be denied that the agencies delivered Karachi to the Jamaat when they forced Maulana Noorani to support the main JI candidate against the PPP candidate. In five towns, Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani`s candidates were contesting jointly with the PPP on joint tickets, MMA candidates were given a free hand during the election while the main opposition PPP was totally blocked, despite being a secular party.
Now the question is as to what could happen to the military- MQM axis. Will they still be a part of the governing coalition when the regime succeeds in enticing the MMA? Will the PPP be allowed to form a government in Sindh? Perhaps not if the radicals in the party remain in control.
Opposition circles believe that as the provincial government is crumbling from within, the only way out is a military overseer as governor, as predicted by Pir Pagara.
Military, mullah and mohajir
By Shamim-ur-Rahman
The strange marriage of convenience between the military, mullah and the mohajir movement is troubling liberal political forces. They wonder as to how long the military, led by Gen Pervez Musharraf, will be able to ride the chariot of power driven by two clashing forces such as the Muttahida Majlis-i- Amal and the Muttahida Qaumi Movement.
Some political circles believe that Gen Musharraf, after his American visit, has decided to ``tolerate`` the mullahs in the NWFP and elsewhere in recognition of their ``manipulated anti-Musharraf shows``, provided they don`t challenge his authority and help him in acquiring legitimacy through parliament.
The PML-Q and the MMA together can easily provide a parliamentary cover for Gen Musharraf to remain president and also pass an agreed draft of the LFO with a two-thirds majority.
The MMA was earlier saying it was ready to accept Gen Musharraf as president if he laid down his uniform. This was against the position taken by the PPP and the PML-N on the issue. Now the MMA has modified its position to suggest that even a date for the president to give up his COAS post will be acceptable, and indicated that the date too is negotiable.
Observers believe that the unexpected turn in Pakistan- Afghanistan relations, particularly some of the statements made by President Karzai, despite Gen Musharraf`s U-turn vis-a-vis Taliban, has prompted the Establishment here to activate a policy of live and let live with the MMA. Elements that were instrumental in helping the MMA to put its act together want the religious lobby to acquire a new look as a tolerant and forward-looking group. Perhaps Maulana Fazlur Rahman`s visit to India is also part of that image-building exercise. Perhaps, the Establishment needs the MMA`s support to implement what Gen Musharraf has promised President Bush at Camp David vis-a-vis Kashmir, Israel and the region.
The regime`s political expediency is evident from the fact that on the one hand it is dealing with the mullahs while at the same time it is sharing power with the MQM both at the centre and in Sindh despite the fact that the latter is opposed to Gen Musharraf`s local government system and is raising confederal slogans on provincial autonomy and opposing the Greater Thal Canal Project.
Some analysts are of the view that once the regime gets the MMA`s support on the LFO, it will no longer need the MQM, which they say will be dumped at the centre as well as in Sindh. But given the MMA`s reluctance to be openly identified with the general`s regime, it is hard to conceive that he would show the door to the MQM so soon.
It is strange that Gen Musharraf, who wishes to be described as a liberal, has allowed the MMA to form the government in the NWFP but made every effort to deny that right to the PPP in Sindh. The MMA is also part of the PML-Q led coalition in Balochistan, and, of course, Prof Ghafoor Ahmad won his Senate seat on the strength of PML-Q votes.
Choudhry Shujaat Hussain has always been calling publicly for an alliance with the MMA. These overtures have never been publicly rejected by the MMA, and newspaper reports had even given the names of prospective MMA ministers. This was denied by the MMA.
One tends to agree with those who believe that the MMA is the product of the Establishment. Otherwise, why was the Shariat bill presented in the NWFP assembly when a similar act already existed? Why did the governor sign it if at all it was considered to be an attempt at Talibanization? He could have sent it back to the assembly for reconsideration. Was it only to show the US that there were extreme pressures on Gen Musharraf?
It cannot be denied that the agencies delivered Karachi to the Jamaat when they forced Maulana Noorani to support the main JI candidate against the PPP candidate. In five towns, Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani`s candidates were contesting jointly with the PPP on joint tickets, MMA candidates were given a free hand during the election while the main opposition PPP was totally blocked, despite being a secular party.
Now the question is as to what could happen to the military- MQM axis. Will they still be a part of the governing coalition when the regime succeeds in enticing the MMA? Will the PPP be allowed to form a government in Sindh? Perhaps not if the radicals in the party remain in control.
Opposition circles believe that as the provincial government is crumbling from within, the only way out is a military overseer as governor, as predicted by Pir Pagara.
#212 Posted by Romair on July 22, 2003 8:54:19 pm
dost-mittar #181: I agree with everything you have stated in this post. Though I am not sure exactly what Nehru`s motivations were. I assume since Gandhi had agreed, thet rest of the Congress would have agreed to a lose federation. If they two countries were to separate, they would then have seperated eventually, with a lot less blood shed, had they been a joint federation first.
#175: Some answers to your questions:
``I asked more than once what happened to non-muslims who were in POK in 1947 and who may not have been so happy if they were allowed to stay``
I don`t know what happened to them. I assume they migrated to India. I will ask my parents and try to find out.
``Why is it that whenever I watch TV reports from POK all I hear is people speaking Panjabi with my parents’ accent while Indian Kashmiris are mostly shown speaking Kashmiri-accented Urdu?``
Pakistani Kashmiris generally speak Punjabi. This is what I speak. You cannot tell the difference between a Pakistani Kashmiri and a Punjabi now. They are so intermixed. Not everyone in Kashmir speaks Kashmiri. Some do and some don`t. I assume most of the Kashmiri speaking Kashmiris are on the Indian side. I have only heard the APHC leadership speak. They are multi-lingual. They speak English, French, Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri etc.
``Will the Kashmir economy be better off tied to that of Pakistan than of India? Will Kashmiris have more tourists from Pakistan than from India?``
I don`t know. I think it would be better off with Pakistan, then it currently is with India. But that is for the Kashmiris to decide. If they think they are better off with India, by all means they should go with India. I can say this for a fact, that the Kashmiris on Pakistan definitely think they are better of with Pakistan. Along with economy, freedom is an important thing also. India would have been economically been better off under the British for another 20 years aftrer paritition, much like Hong Kong, but Indians wanted freedom.
``Will Kashmiris have more regional autonomy in Pakistan than in India?``
I think with Pakistan. Definitely. Pakistan`s Kashmir is autonomous. We have our own President and Flag. However, once the Kashmir issue is resolved, nearlly all of us would vote to fully join Pakistan (in practical terms we already have). I think Indian Kashmiris in the Valley would either want independence or join Pakistan Kashmir, which would eventually all join Pakistan. I doubt you will find too many Kashmiris in the Valley who ever wanted to be with India. I have to assume this is why India never holds a plebescit there. What other reason could there be? You need to keep in mind these are the grandchildren of the original Kashmiris who were occuppied. And they still want freedom.
``Will Kashmiris have more freedom to maintain and grow their Kashmiri language and culture in Pakistan than in India?``
I don`t know, since I don`t know how much freedom India has given them in this regard. Pakistani Kashmiris I have met, don`t seem too pushed about language. I certainly am not pushed. And as I said, Kashmiris speak different languages. I think eventually all Kashmiris will speak Urdu and Punjabi, willingly. Like I do.
``Will they have access to better educational institutes in Pakistan than in India?``
It is hard for me to answer these compartive questions, since I don`t know exactly what they have access to in India. In Pakistan, Kashmiris have a lot of affirmative action. I could have gone to any univerisity in Pakistan I wanted to, with a Kashmiri domicile. Kashmir gets a good deal from Pakistan. Free phone service in Kashmiri villages in many cases etc. Muslims on the whole, seem to have much better access to educational institutions in Pakistan than in India. Nearly all South Asian Muslim IT people I meet are from Pakistan. So I assume access to education for Kashmiri Muslims in India would be even worse, than normal Indian-Muslims. Hence they would have much better access in Pakistan.
``Will they have better job prospects in Pakistani than in Indian companies?``
Yes, for the Muslims. Because Indian Muslims seem to have missed the boat in the Indian economy. And Indian Kashmiris more so. I cannot say this for Hindu and Bhuddhist Kashmiris though. Those is Ladakh and Jammu may be better off with India. That is why I think most of that area woudl vote to stay with India.
``Will Kashmiris have more democratic freedoms in Pakistan than in India?``
Yes, definitely. I have the same democratic freedoms as any Pakistani. Infact more so. I have access to Kashmiri and Pakistani systems. In India, the whole freedom movement seems to have started off due to rigged elections in late 80s.
``Will the non-sunni Kashmiris (dogras, sikhs, buddhists, shias) have greater religious freedom in Pakistan than in India?``
For Shia Muslims Yes. For other, No. Definitely not. Non-Muslims, including Bhuddhists, Christians etc. will have more religious freedom in India.
``Will Kashmiris get more respect abroad with Pakistani than with Indian passports?``
Outside Pakistan, it is hard to say which passport has more clout, Indian or Pakistani. I have never done a survey. Probably, in Middle East with Pakistani passport. In countries like USA, Europe with Indian - specially after Sep 11.
``If the answer to all these questions is in the negative, then the question arises, why do some Kashmiris want to leave India? Isn’t it because those who want to do so do not want to live in a Kaafiristaan? If so, why not call it the movement for what it is - A Jihad of Dar-ul-Islam against Dar-ul-Harb? Why dignify it as a freedom struggle? ``
The answer to most questions is not negative. However to get a more accurate idea, you will have to ask them. I don` think it is, ``some,`` who want to leave India. It is, ``most.`` If it was, ``some,`` India would have officially asked for their opinion long ago, and gotten a vote in its favor. Which is where the whole problem starts. Maybe they want to leave, because everyone in India tries to become their spokesperson, and does not allow them to speak for themselves. Let them speak their mind through a vote, and you will find out.
There are a couple of things you should consider: Pakistan Kashmir is easily, by a huge margin, the most non-violent part of Pakistan. Perhaps of all of South Asia. You will never hear of any rape, violence etc. coming out of there. Only rencetly Shia-Sunni trouble has started in Nothern Areas, but other than that it is a nunnery compared to the rest of Pakistan. A Deputy Commissioner in Kashmir once told me that one could fit all the criminals in Kashmir in one jail in Rawalpindi. I have myself driven through there, and left my car open. I couldn`t imagine doing that in Karachi or Lahore.
Also, Kashmiris get a great deal from Pakistan. There are no major high class universities in Pakistan Kashmir. It mostly has colleges. Yet you will find Kashmiris fully integrated into Pakistan, at all levels. They are doctors, generals, scholars etc. NS is ethnically Kashmiri (I think) and was PM. This is all due to access to Pakistani institutions. Additionally, my village in Kashmir is the most advanced village I have ever seen in Pakistan. It has women who are now going into civil services. And there is a women`s college being built at the village level. Pakistani Kashmiris form one of the largest ex-pat Pakistani groups, and have sent back a lot of money home to Kashmir.
In short, Pakistani Kashmiris are very pro-Pakistan. Obviously, they must be seeing something good in Pakistan economically.
Right across the LOC, in Indian Kashmir, the situation is reverse. Indian Kashmir is easily the most violent part of India, of South Asia, and perhaps of the rest of the world. Jails are full and overflowing. It has the highest ratio of soldier per sq. ft. in the world. I don`t know of a single Pakistani Kashmiri who has been tortured, raped etc. Yet international journalist after journalist who can sneak into Indian Kashmir reports horror stories of torture, rape, killings by Indian security forces. Obviously this is why HR organizations are banned there. Not a single Pakistani Kashmiri gets killed by a Pakistani soldier. Yet tens of thousands, according to ABC, BBC, HR, AI, etc. in Indian Kashmir have been killed by Indian soldiers. Pakistani Kashmir is not under Martial Law even when the rest of Pakistan has been under Martial Law. Yet Indian Kashmir is under a constant curfew and military control, even though rest of India is never under Martial Law. Human Rights organizations are literally dragged into Pakistan Kashmir, even when they don`t want to go there. While Indian Kashmir is one of the few remaining areas in the world where they are banned (they have not been banned in Palestine by Israelis). etc. etc.
Based on all of this, I am sure when an Indian Kashmiri looks across the LOC, he sees his
cousins living pretty well. Had my parents not migrated from Srinagar to Muzzafarabad, the chances of my being in Silicon Valley would be lower than the chances of my being in an Indian jail. So you must agree that there is more to it than dar-u--harb and dar-ul-islam.
But, just to give you the benefit of the doubt, the best thing to do is to ask the Kashmiris themselves. If they support the Indian argument, then they will themselves decide to join India, in which case there will be no argument that can be presented from the Pakistan side. I certainly would accept their decision happily, as would most Pakistanis. It is this refusal of India to ask them, while simultaneously trying to, ``speak up`` for them, which is creating the problem.
I hope I have answered your questions directly to your satisfaction.
#175: Some answers to your questions:
``I asked more than once what happened to non-muslims who were in POK in 1947 and who may not have been so happy if they were allowed to stay``
I don`t know what happened to them. I assume they migrated to India. I will ask my parents and try to find out.
``Why is it that whenever I watch TV reports from POK all I hear is people speaking Panjabi with my parents’ accent while Indian Kashmiris are mostly shown speaking Kashmiri-accented Urdu?``
Pakistani Kashmiris generally speak Punjabi. This is what I speak. You cannot tell the difference between a Pakistani Kashmiri and a Punjabi now. They are so intermixed. Not everyone in Kashmir speaks Kashmiri. Some do and some don`t. I assume most of the Kashmiri speaking Kashmiris are on the Indian side. I have only heard the APHC leadership speak. They are multi-lingual. They speak English, French, Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri etc.
``Will the Kashmir economy be better off tied to that of Pakistan than of India? Will Kashmiris have more tourists from Pakistan than from India?``
I don`t know. I think it would be better off with Pakistan, then it currently is with India. But that is for the Kashmiris to decide. If they think they are better off with India, by all means they should go with India. I can say this for a fact, that the Kashmiris on Pakistan definitely think they are better of with Pakistan. Along with economy, freedom is an important thing also. India would have been economically been better off under the British for another 20 years aftrer paritition, much like Hong Kong, but Indians wanted freedom.
``Will Kashmiris have more regional autonomy in Pakistan than in India?``
I think with Pakistan. Definitely. Pakistan`s Kashmir is autonomous. We have our own President and Flag. However, once the Kashmir issue is resolved, nearlly all of us would vote to fully join Pakistan (in practical terms we already have). I think Indian Kashmiris in the Valley would either want independence or join Pakistan Kashmir, which would eventually all join Pakistan. I doubt you will find too many Kashmiris in the Valley who ever wanted to be with India. I have to assume this is why India never holds a plebescit there. What other reason could there be? You need to keep in mind these are the grandchildren of the original Kashmiris who were occuppied. And they still want freedom.
``Will Kashmiris have more freedom to maintain and grow their Kashmiri language and culture in Pakistan than in India?``
I don`t know, since I don`t know how much freedom India has given them in this regard. Pakistani Kashmiris I have met, don`t seem too pushed about language. I certainly am not pushed. And as I said, Kashmiris speak different languages. I think eventually all Kashmiris will speak Urdu and Punjabi, willingly. Like I do.
``Will they have access to better educational institutes in Pakistan than in India?``
It is hard for me to answer these compartive questions, since I don`t know exactly what they have access to in India. In Pakistan, Kashmiris have a lot of affirmative action. I could have gone to any univerisity in Pakistan I wanted to, with a Kashmiri domicile. Kashmir gets a good deal from Pakistan. Free phone service in Kashmiri villages in many cases etc. Muslims on the whole, seem to have much better access to educational institutions in Pakistan than in India. Nearly all South Asian Muslim IT people I meet are from Pakistan. So I assume access to education for Kashmiri Muslims in India would be even worse, than normal Indian-Muslims. Hence they would have much better access in Pakistan.
``Will they have better job prospects in Pakistani than in Indian companies?``
Yes, for the Muslims. Because Indian Muslims seem to have missed the boat in the Indian economy. And Indian Kashmiris more so. I cannot say this for Hindu and Bhuddhist Kashmiris though. Those is Ladakh and Jammu may be better off with India. That is why I think most of that area woudl vote to stay with India.
``Will Kashmiris have more democratic freedoms in Pakistan than in India?``
Yes, definitely. I have the same democratic freedoms as any Pakistani. Infact more so. I have access to Kashmiri and Pakistani systems. In India, the whole freedom movement seems to have started off due to rigged elections in late 80s.
``Will the non-sunni Kashmiris (dogras, sikhs, buddhists, shias) have greater religious freedom in Pakistan than in India?``
For Shia Muslims Yes. For other, No. Definitely not. Non-Muslims, including Bhuddhists, Christians etc. will have more religious freedom in India.
``Will Kashmiris get more respect abroad with Pakistani than with Indian passports?``
Outside Pakistan, it is hard to say which passport has more clout, Indian or Pakistani. I have never done a survey. Probably, in Middle East with Pakistani passport. In countries like USA, Europe with Indian - specially after Sep 11.
``If the answer to all these questions is in the negative, then the question arises, why do some Kashmiris want to leave India? Isn’t it because those who want to do so do not want to live in a Kaafiristaan? If so, why not call it the movement for what it is - A Jihad of Dar-ul-Islam against Dar-ul-Harb? Why dignify it as a freedom struggle? ``
The answer to most questions is not negative. However to get a more accurate idea, you will have to ask them. I don` think it is, ``some,`` who want to leave India. It is, ``most.`` If it was, ``some,`` India would have officially asked for their opinion long ago, and gotten a vote in its favor. Which is where the whole problem starts. Maybe they want to leave, because everyone in India tries to become their spokesperson, and does not allow them to speak for themselves. Let them speak their mind through a vote, and you will find out.
There are a couple of things you should consider: Pakistan Kashmir is easily, by a huge margin, the most non-violent part of Pakistan. Perhaps of all of South Asia. You will never hear of any rape, violence etc. coming out of there. Only rencetly Shia-Sunni trouble has started in Nothern Areas, but other than that it is a nunnery compared to the rest of Pakistan. A Deputy Commissioner in Kashmir once told me that one could fit all the criminals in Kashmir in one jail in Rawalpindi. I have myself driven through there, and left my car open. I couldn`t imagine doing that in Karachi or Lahore.
Also, Kashmiris get a great deal from Pakistan. There are no major high class universities in Pakistan Kashmir. It mostly has colleges. Yet you will find Kashmiris fully integrated into Pakistan, at all levels. They are doctors, generals, scholars etc. NS is ethnically Kashmiri (I think) and was PM. This is all due to access to Pakistani institutions. Additionally, my village in Kashmir is the most advanced village I have ever seen in Pakistan. It has women who are now going into civil services. And there is a women`s college being built at the village level. Pakistani Kashmiris form one of the largest ex-pat Pakistani groups, and have sent back a lot of money home to Kashmir.
In short, Pakistani Kashmiris are very pro-Pakistan. Obviously, they must be seeing something good in Pakistan economically.
Right across the LOC, in Indian Kashmir, the situation is reverse. Indian Kashmir is easily the most violent part of India, of South Asia, and perhaps of the rest of the world. Jails are full and overflowing. It has the highest ratio of soldier per sq. ft. in the world. I don`t know of a single Pakistani Kashmiri who has been tortured, raped etc. Yet international journalist after journalist who can sneak into Indian Kashmir reports horror stories of torture, rape, killings by Indian security forces. Obviously this is why HR organizations are banned there. Not a single Pakistani Kashmiri gets killed by a Pakistani soldier. Yet tens of thousands, according to ABC, BBC, HR, AI, etc. in Indian Kashmir have been killed by Indian soldiers. Pakistani Kashmir is not under Martial Law even when the rest of Pakistan has been under Martial Law. Yet Indian Kashmir is under a constant curfew and military control, even though rest of India is never under Martial Law. Human Rights organizations are literally dragged into Pakistan Kashmir, even when they don`t want to go there. While Indian Kashmir is one of the few remaining areas in the world where they are banned (they have not been banned in Palestine by Israelis). etc. etc.
Based on all of this, I am sure when an Indian Kashmiri looks across the LOC, he sees his
cousins living pretty well. Had my parents not migrated from Srinagar to Muzzafarabad, the chances of my being in Silicon Valley would be lower than the chances of my being in an Indian jail. So you must agree that there is more to it than dar-u--harb and dar-ul-islam.
But, just to give you the benefit of the doubt, the best thing to do is to ask the Kashmiris themselves. If they support the Indian argument, then they will themselves decide to join India, in which case there will be no argument that can be presented from the Pakistan side. I certainly would accept their decision happily, as would most Pakistanis. It is this refusal of India to ask them, while simultaneously trying to, ``speak up`` for them, which is creating the problem.
I hope I have answered your questions directly to your satisfaction.
#211 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 6:59:26 pm
re: #201 by ahmadzai
``Still, we know who is pulling the strings..``
The ``pulling the strings`` as you call it is an important aspect of parliamentary democracy. Elected governments in the State are answerable to the center with regards to policies involving security and interest of the nation. State govts can be dismissed by center if the policies are not viewed as being in national interest.
Still, Mufti`s govt is doing a good job, despite what Paki newspaper says:
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2003/kashmir20030124a.html
``The PDP-led Government’s achievement in providing better power supply, generating accountability in Government offices, reviving institutions of the executive after 13 years and infusing a sense of empowerment among the common people— particularly in Kashmir valley—has been widely appreciated. Consequently, the 13-year-long administrative vacuum is diminishing fast and overwhelming majority of the people is identifying itself with the new Government. As this situation is likely to reduce the level of alienation and a remarkable number of militants have already laid down arms, guerrilla outfits have begun to show signs of nervousness.``
This is from a local daily written by a Kashmiri muslim. PDP must be doing something good since Hizb is pissed off! And, as the last sentence of the para i have pasted says, some guerilla outfits, including Hizb are nervous. Methinks, even the Pakis are nervous.
Efforts to develop J and k are continuing apace and many new projects like a Railway line or a superhighway or on the anvil:http://www.meadev.nic.in/news/clippings/20030403/hin.htm
Here is Asghar Ali Engineer`s take on the new situation in Kashmir:http://ecumene.org/IIS/csss92.htm
But, as the recent attacks on the Army and pilgrims show, terrorism continues unabated. We Indians know who is pulling the strings in each of these acts of terrorism.
Sridhar
``Still, we know who is pulling the strings..``
The ``pulling the strings`` as you call it is an important aspect of parliamentary democracy. Elected governments in the State are answerable to the center with regards to policies involving security and interest of the nation. State govts can be dismissed by center if the policies are not viewed as being in national interest.
Still, Mufti`s govt is doing a good job, despite what Paki newspaper says:
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2003/kashmir20030124a.html
``The PDP-led Government’s achievement in providing better power supply, generating accountability in Government offices, reviving institutions of the executive after 13 years and infusing a sense of empowerment among the common people— particularly in Kashmir valley—has been widely appreciated. Consequently, the 13-year-long administrative vacuum is diminishing fast and overwhelming majority of the people is identifying itself with the new Government. As this situation is likely to reduce the level of alienation and a remarkable number of militants have already laid down arms, guerrilla outfits have begun to show signs of nervousness.``
This is from a local daily written by a Kashmiri muslim. PDP must be doing something good since Hizb is pissed off! And, as the last sentence of the para i have pasted says, some guerilla outfits, including Hizb are nervous. Methinks, even the Pakis are nervous.
Efforts to develop J and k are continuing apace and many new projects like a Railway line or a superhighway or on the anvil:http://www.meadev.nic.in/news/clippings/20030403/hin.htm
Here is Asghar Ali Engineer`s take on the new situation in Kashmir:http://ecumene.org/IIS/csss92.htm
But, as the recent attacks on the Army and pilgrims show, terrorism continues unabated. We Indians know who is pulling the strings in each of these acts of terrorism.
Sridhar
#210 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 6:40:42 pm
re:#203 by arjun_m
I am only amused at people like Romair, Ahmedzai who keep pointing towards some deficiencies in Indian secularism while living in an Islamic country (or hailing from it) themselves. It would be funny if it were not so tragic.
Sridhar
I am only amused at people like Romair, Ahmedzai who keep pointing towards some deficiencies in Indian secularism while living in an Islamic country (or hailing from it) themselves. It would be funny if it were not so tragic.
Sridhar
#209 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 6:40:42 pm
re:#207 by sri
There is only one thing that the Paki army brigade and the terrorist vermins understand. That is brute force. Crudely put, it is called ``gand me danda``.
Sridhar
There is only one thing that the Paki army brigade and the terrorist vermins understand. That is brute force. Crudely put, it is called ``gand me danda``.
Sridhar
#208 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 6:40:42 pm
re: human right violations
Yes, i know what Romair meant. But he also failed to point out to these:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/pakistan/
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1995/Pakistan.htm
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/pakistan/http://www.rediff.com/us/2003/apr/01pak.htm
Sridhar
Yes, i know what Romair meant. But he also failed to point out to these:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/pakistan/
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1995/Pakistan.htm
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/pakistan/http://www.rediff.com/us/2003/apr/01pak.htm
Sridhar
#207 Posted by sri on July 22, 2003 2:25:13 pm
Stuka #200 :
`` India`s Kashmir military chief injured, brigadier killed in attack ``
and a day before hindu pilgrims were murdered by the most lovable puppy dog ``freedom fighters`` of pakis also known as ``terrorists`` by the rest of world.
When sh!t like this happens everyday, pakis wonder why India doesn`t negotiate with their puppy dogs. Tell you what pakis, go tell your prophet..... you are not getting an inch of Kashmir.
#206 Posted by bbabu on July 22, 2003 1:20:01 pm
ahmadzai #202
Fundamentalist involves a return to the past especially in social and cultural mores. The BJP has not espoused any such laws.
Fundamentalist involves a return to the past especially in social and cultural mores. The BJP has not espoused any such laws.
#205 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
#190 by rsridhar
``Kashmiris seem to like their now C.M. Mufti Sayeed is not only popular but he is also doing a good job during a difficult time.``
Still, we know who is pulling the strings:
http://www.dawn.com/2003/05/18/op.htm
It reads:
``So far there is little sign that India`s government is taking the former course. Chief Minister Mufti Sayeed recently outlined a common minimum programme (CMP) to restore Kashmiri confidence and bring peace to the valley. It includes release of uncharged detainees, investigation of custodial deaths and other abuses, and disbandment of the notorious Special Operations Group (SOG). But by January pressure from New Delhi had forced the PDP-Congress government to abandon investigation of abuses by the SOG. Its decision to release political prisoners was condemned by BJP politicians as a `soft policy towards terrorists`. Should this kind of obstructionism persist from New Delhi, Mufti Saeed`s CMP will turn out to be a damp squid. ``
``Kashmiris seem to like their now C.M. Mufti Sayeed is not only popular but he is also doing a good job during a difficult time.``
Still, we know who is pulling the strings:
http://www.dawn.com/2003/05/18/op.htm
It reads:
``So far there is little sign that India`s government is taking the former course. Chief Minister Mufti Sayeed recently outlined a common minimum programme (CMP) to restore Kashmiri confidence and bring peace to the valley. It includes release of uncharged detainees, investigation of custodial deaths and other abuses, and disbandment of the notorious Special Operations Group (SOG). But by January pressure from New Delhi had forced the PDP-Congress government to abandon investigation of abuses by the SOG. Its decision to release political prisoners was condemned by BJP politicians as a `soft policy towards terrorists`. Should this kind of obstructionism persist from New Delhi, Mufti Saeed`s CMP will turn out to be a damp squid. ``
#204 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
dost-mittar, rsridhar and bbabu,
Perhaps Romair was referring to Sangh Parivar, of which BJP is a part. Please check out the following site for information:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-05.htm
If you do not view this parivar as extremist, fundamentalist alien to Hinduism (a religion of peace and a great Way of Life) family then what else will make you view it as such?
Perhaps Romair was referring to Sangh Parivar, of which BJP is a part. Please check out the following site for information:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-05.htm
If you do not view this parivar as extremist, fundamentalist alien to Hinduism (a religion of peace and a great Way of Life) family then what else will make you view it as such?
#203 Posted by arjun_m on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
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#202 Posted by arjun_m on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
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#201 Posted by arjun_m on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
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#200 Posted by bbabu on July 22, 2003 8:27:22 am
ahmadzai #192
`` 1. A well coordinated and managed campaign that ensured that their supporters register themselves for voting, get out and vote on the day of the elections. ``Moderates on the other hand were busy watching TV``.``
I wonder where the co-ordination came from
`` 4. Actions of the Coalition in Afghanistan that totally marginalized Pashtoons there.``
You mean Pashtoons cannot go around killing Hazaras and Tajiks.
`` The Indians and some Pakistanis (?) have suggested that absence of Nawaz and BB attributed to the success of Islamists. I do not agree with that. Even BB and Nawaz would not have mattered much in the constituencies where the MMA won.``
If that is the case allow NS and BB to return and fight the MMA on a level playing field. What is this gutter crap about madrassah being equivalent to an university degree ?
Explain the logic of Sunni and Shite extremists being under the same umbrella when they go around killing each other.
MMA was created by Mushy to increase his leverage with the West. Of course Uncle Sam leaked the North Korea connection as a nice warning shot.
`` 1. A well coordinated and managed campaign that ensured that their supporters register themselves for voting, get out and vote on the day of the elections. ``Moderates on the other hand were busy watching TV``.``
I wonder where the co-ordination came from
`` 4. Actions of the Coalition in Afghanistan that totally marginalized Pashtoons there.``
You mean Pashtoons cannot go around killing Hazaras and Tajiks.
`` The Indians and some Pakistanis (?) have suggested that absence of Nawaz and BB attributed to the success of Islamists. I do not agree with that. Even BB and Nawaz would not have mattered much in the constituencies where the MMA won.``
If that is the case allow NS and BB to return and fight the MMA on a level playing field. What is this gutter crap about madrassah being equivalent to an university degree ?
Explain the logic of Sunni and Shite extremists being under the same umbrella when they go around killing each other.
MMA was created by Mushy to increase his leverage with the West. Of course Uncle Sam leaked the North Korea connection as a nice warning shot.
#199 Posted by bbabu on July 22, 2003 8:27:22 am
rsridhar #197
One can argue if the BJP is communalist, facist, reactionary etc. But they are definitely not fundamentalist.
One can argue if the BJP is communalist, facist, reactionary etc. But they are definitely not fundamentalist.
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