Terrorism, Sectarianism and the Military

Just a curosory glance at the discussions..... I dont want to contribute anything to it...
But WOW.... the posts are really great every one outdoing each other.. Sarcasam.. wit great.... even by mishra!!(now dont ever claim that you never benifitted from chowk)
However there are some things I dont like changed.(Theres got to be something familiar) Jay whatever happened to your Offal Fixation??!!! com`on dont dissappoint me..

Romair @ 134 & Faisal @ 136:

Romair wrote:
``My own experience has been similar. I think people on Chowk are only exposed to one or two Generals and are unaware of the 99.999% of the rest of the military.``

Faisal wrote:
``but while there have been success stories; there are also failures on a very, very large scale. this discussion i leave for another day. ``

Lot of our narrations on Chowk are coming from our personal experiences (e.g. Romair`s military background). My observations:

1. Pakistani media is one of the most independent of the world at this point of time. You get to read and hear a lot of diverse views and opinions that Romair referred to as introspection and critique. Compare this with US and Indian media, who tend to tow the Government policy. In the USA, it seems that there is a troika of Government-establishment- media that tends to form policies and develops public opinion as part of tacit collusion. IMHO, the disadvantage of a free media is that it can bring lot of confusion in the strategic directions that the country would desire to take.

2. You may or may not agree that there is a great prejuidice against Muslims and Islam, if not an outright war againt Islam, in the western world especially in the USA. So whereas you get to hear a lot of positive news about countries like India (the so called success stories), there is hardly any comparable news from Muslim countries like Malaysia, Egypt, UAE, Morocco, etc. where there are many more success stories. Surely, if there is no good news from ``jihadi, Taliban infested, rogue`` Pakistan then there is got to be some thing somewhere good happening in a Muslim country that is worth reporting. On the contrary, there is a deliberate attempt to paint Muslim countries in the negative.

3. I was recently traveling in Sindh, Pakistan and got to hear from this actor from Monty Python who was also on a tourism related visit. He was all in praise of the country and stated on numerous occasions that the UK`s travel advisory on Pakistan seems to be a conspiracy againt this country.

4. I recall traveling with a group of McGill faculty associated with LUMS (Lahore) in the 90s, who were all in praise of our highway system. They compared it with their experience of traveling in India and said that was like hell.

5. Nevertheless, the most recent success story is making a U-turn on our Taliban policy. Talibans were surely our Nadaan Dowst. However, our enemy viz. India also turned out to be non-Danismand dushman. If India had kept us embroiled in Kashmir, we would have surely exhausted our resources and would have been a fodder in next few years. I believe that coming out of the Jihadi quagmire has been our ultimate victory. We have unleashed our resources for the development of the country. As regards Kashmir, all we have to do is to keep raising the just issue at all international fora no matter who is the adversity and whatever are their viewpoint(s), keep inviting India to the dialogue without actually pushing a solution at this point of time.

SameerJB

#137
Excellent introspective post....based on REALITY; not grandiose delusions or Polyannish ``analysis`` of a supposed ``pseudo-expert``.

Sameer: You also ignore the effect of partition on the most vulnerable sections of Indian Muslims. I read Faisaluno`s story. Irony is that Muslims like him would have done well here as well. There are plenty who do. But the poor Muslims were the ones who needed most protection and partition has suppresed their ability to organize politically, perhaps forever.

SameerJB#137:
I agree with most of your excellent post, except for some details.
I dont think Brhaminism was a great influence socially on Panjab, even among Hindus and Sikhs, let alone Muslims. Brahmins never had the status, power or influence in Panjab that they had elsewhere in India. They were in fact held in contempt. `Bahman` was a term more of contempt and ridicule than of respect. The reason for this deviation from the rest of the country are not known to me, although I have some hypotheses (any ideas?). I do know that Panjab is the only place where the brahmins stooped themselves to ritual begging (called `handa` by panjabis, the equivalent word, I think, does not even exist in Hindi). Their role in Panjab was restricted mainly to performing rituals during various ceremonies. And that role too was reduced under the influence of Arya Samajis and Sikhs (not completely though as brahmins conducted Sikh marriages, death and other rituals until the Khalsa movement of the late 19th, early 20th centuries.
I used to think, like you do, that the partition is justified by the post-partition progress registered by Panjabi Muslims, who lagged in education and economic status to Sikh and Hindu panjabis. I still do but now have second thoughts. I now think (histories` great `what ifs`) that Pakistan is deficient in exactly the human resources that would have been provided by the outgoing communities, namely thrift, enterprise and a progressive professional middle class. The industries in which Pakistan is now competitive, textiles and sporting goods, were both fledgling industries pioneered by these communities in the pre-partition Panjab.
As for looking east, this was true of Muslims (before Aligarh for the elite) but not of Hindus and to some extent, even for sikhs. The Hindus had their religious places of significance in the east. And Hindus and Sikhs had to go to Haridwar at least after deaths in their families (in case of Sikhhs this has now been replaced by Anandpur Sahib). Even now, the best place for a Hindu or Sikh to trace his family history is to go to the purohits of Haridwar. And many Hindus went for religious pilgrimages to the rest of India, mostly in their old age.

HNasir:

``Dear friends, I am sorry, if I am disappointing some of you by resolutely resisting to partake in the ongoing Indo-Pak tirades -- unfortunately a compulsory but nonsensical feature of every online South Asian forum – as well as personal invectives``

All respect to you for that statement. Your article is interesting. I have my opinions but I do not believe that this is the right forum esp since it will affect your credibility. Also it is an internal problrm of pakistan.

It`s time for Mr. Bush to eat crows -- and go back to the United Nations --

APOLOGIZE for his CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR in invading a sovereign member state of the United Nation -- in contravention to the UN charter.

using the Goebelsian technique of -- LIES, LIES, and MORE LIES -- BIGGER and BIGGER LIES -- Deciet and Deception -- before the eyes of an incredulous world....

now -- BEG the Security Council to allow Kofi Annan to take over administering IRAQ.

The Bush`y Occupation of IRAQ MUST end -- Kofi Annan MUST take over the administration of Iraq -- US Army MUST Withdraw -- United Nation army must take over -- and the United States and Britain MUST bear the expenses of repairing Iraq -- a VICTIM of their murdeous Vandalism and wanton destruction.

SO says Kofi Annan:


Annan asks US, UK to end occupation
By Our Correspondent

UNITED NATIONS, July 19: UN Secretary General Kofi Annan, on Friday called for a broader role for the United Nations in Iraq and asked the United States and Britain to quickly establish order in the country and hand over the power to the elected representatives of the people.

In the first ever report sent to the UN Security Council on Iraq since the US-led coalition deposed Saddam Hussein, Mr Annan said that the Iraqis did not want democracy imposed on them by outsiders and rated lawlessness as their primary concern.

``It is important that Iraqis are able to see a clear timetable leading to the full restoration of their sovereignty,`` Mr Annan said.

``There is a pressing need to set out a clear and specific sequence of events leading to the end of military occupation.`` (AP)

Sameer, re. #105,
Buddy, I know my views on the subject have differed from yours in the past. But allow me to congratulate you on, as Madani put it, your intellectual honesty, consistency and passion.
Even your style is getting really classy. Your content always has been.
rgds,
PM

Ahmadzai: This is the best you can do? I ask you about Indian Punjab abd you bring up twp propaganda sites? If you ask me about Islam, can I quote from www.hinduunity.org?

You are living proof that all that is said about Pahans is quite true.

How to distinguish between a military-run piece of real estate and a sovereign nation?

[quote]
With the costs of stabilizing Iraq hovering at $4 billion a month and with American troops being killed at a steady rate, administration officials acknowledge that they are rethinking their strategy and may seek a United Nations resolution for help that would placate other nations, like India, France and Germany.
[end-quote]

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/19/international/worldspecial/19DIPL.html

And now lets hear from El Presidente Emir a Momin General and the Prince of Fauji Democracy

---

Musharraf
[quote]
Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has touched off a storm of criticism at home after saying his country could send up to 10,000 troops to Iraq.

After meeting President George W Bush at Camp David on Tuesday and securing an aid pledge of $3 billion for backing the US-led war on terror, Musharraf said Pakistan could provide the troops if certain conditions were met.

He said one of the issues would be finance, as Pakistan could not be expected to pay for such a large force.
[end-quote]


Now children, which one of the following are countries and which ones are military cantonements?

India, Pakistan, France, Germany.

FOR EXTRA CREDIT: How come these ugly dal-eating indians outfoxed the dashing commando? Your answer could include references to Chanakya, Heeng, Caste system etc.

Dear friends, I am sorry, if I am disappointing some of you by resolutely resisting to partake in the ongoing Indo-Pak tirades -- unfortunately a compulsory but nonsensical feature of every online South Asian forum – as well as personal invectives. Being a writer of this piece I would prefer (and appreciate) to keep the discussion confined to the subject matter.

My sole and humble intention for scribing this note was to highlight some of the harmful effects of the military’s intervening role in Pakistani politics. I would not hesitate to accede that given the option to elect among ONLY B B, NS and Pervez Musharraf, it is almost certain that I will go for P M. Please, note I am saying ELECT, if I have to CHOOSE. But no backdoor siasat, absolutely no self-imposition. Either come through proper channels or keep your beak shut. Ironically, our omnipotent generals are very fond of ridiculing politicians while at the same time utilizing every possible tool and dirty trick for occupying just political offices.

Romair, Sir, it didn’t meant to be emotional. Apparently, I have failed in putting my point of view in a coherent, logical and analytical manner that you found it emotional (and lacking in content). My only aim was however to draw attention towards the in-built collision between rule of the law and military set-ups. The unanticipated, if not inevitable results of one-man rule being perpetuated by a number of non-kosher means are bound to be devastating.

Ahmadzai sahib:


1. Responsibility is directly proportional to the power and resources one has. As the military is the most powerful institution of the country with far bigger chuck of the national resources, and continuously trespassing in every possible sector I held them responsible for most of the ills.

2. Courts allowing Tariq Azam. Sir, you must be kidding, which courts? See, another lethal side-effect of PM and his predecessors. Imagine, the height of our misfortune that even after general elections and despite the so-called revival of the Constitution, all judges except one has yet to take oath under the Constitution. Yeah, still they are working under that bloody PCO. A country with an apex court relegated to the status of a brothel, directed by a battery of pimps in khaki and there are people who have the guts to enumerate the benefits of the military. Sorry for the language, got bit “emotional” and inspired by that famous housewife on Chowk (Nighat Yasmeen)

3. Can you imagine a court in Pakistan giving a verdict directly and indirectly challenging the senior generals? A constitutional petition challenging the ISI’s political role is rotting in the Supreme Court for last many years.

4. Please, name an institution, which is in a better condition today than Oct 1999. Please, except KSE and foreign reserves.

Actually, I am really tired of that KSE-index and forex reserves babble. Let me help you to put even this in perspective. Oct 12, 1999 (PM got “highjacked”) – 9/11 – 2001 (2 years) anything significant regarding micro-macro indicators? These 2 benchmarks are up to 75 % by the virtue of Sept 11. Leave them aside, and enlighten us about foreign investment, reduction in poverty (it has actually gone up) or for that matter any other social indicator.

5. Regarding admitting mistakes. Good, he committed a mistake as he admits, what should be the reasonable consequences for that? Has he done ANYTHING to rectify those mistakes? By the way, just few days back PML-N apologised for working with Zia. Home Minister Balochistan accepting his part of the responsibility and resigning.

6. Do you really believe that we will see the dawn when PM will say that now Pakistan has been transformed into a superpower and I am going home? Will he leave after this self-assumed term? Will Pakistan be a superpower in next 4 years? When during last 4 years our per capita income has come down to 416 USD from USD 475.

7. Some people are more equal than others in the land of pure. Observe:
Over 200 arrested in retired brigadier’s murder case
By Raja Assad HameedRAWALPINDI – Police authorities have arrested over 200 suspects from throughout the district here on Friday in wake of murder of Brigadier (Retd) Iftikhar Mir in Army Officer Housing Colony (AOHC) the other day, said police sources.Meanwhile, Punjab IGP, Syed Masood Shah also visited the crime scene in AOHS and inquired about the progress of the investigation.The IG was also accompanied with DIG Rawalpindi Range, Sheikh Israr Ahmed and District Police Officer Syed Moravet Ali Shah.
http://www.nation.com.pk/daily/July-2003/19/national/isb6.asp

May I ask how many arrests have been made in connection with Quetta? Observe the frenzy for a murder of one retired brigadier. I have lust to use my full vocabulary of Punjabi abuses for star officers but refraining for the propriety sake.

Would you kindly mention any filthy ploy PM has not employed during last four years? I can help you by listing them up? Horsetrading -- PPP Patriots. Political corruption -- rewarding absconders, bank defaulters, murderers? Even financial corruption – writing of loans, I can provide you the long lists of last three years.

The only difference is that possibly, one can never be sure, he is personally not involved in off-the-book financial embezzlement. “According to the rules” he keep on amassing wealth, as all other honest generals of Pakistan.

Sir, it may hurt you, because of your affiliation and interests, I have started hating generals more than anything else. It seems to me that the mother of all evils is the GHQ.

Take care.

Reading HisGreatFlatulence`s writings you would think that we were discussing some civilized dispute between neighbors. The use of legal terminology, references to ``international law`` and all kinds of arcana are used to cultivate a civilized persona. But the brutal truth is of course known to us. Here is a small sample:
++++++++++++++++++++++++
18 injured in blast

By Luv Puri


JAMMU JULY 19. Eighteen persons were injured in a powerful grenade blast in Pulwama district of Kashmir today.

Police said the grenade was aimed at a security patrol. It missed the target and fell on the road, injuring 17 pedestrians and a policeman.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++

So what is TheGreatlyFlatulent really saying? He is saying: we have a disagreement with you and therefore we have the right to kill your civilians, your children, your parents, your schoolteachers and your politicians. We have the right to mass murder because we disagree with you on some issues!!! ANd this clown wants to know why the indians are all over Chowk !!

No amount of appeals to international law can explain away the actions of mass murderers. Those who justify such killing and violence are as barbaric as the person who threw the grenade. And we should treat them exactly as we would treat any other accessory to murder.

During the first 10-15 interacts, I had an exchange of opinions with Inquirer but could not cntinue. There were two main points. 1) Is creation of Pakistan on certain basis responsible for many of the problems faced by Pakistan now and 2) should Pakistanis be impressed of Indian experience with secular constitution, democracy, social indicators and economic achievements? My opinion to both of these points was, no.

The oft repeated history here thar ML use of Muslim card for partition was wrong. I also agree that it was wrong to use religion card. But I do not consider partition into 2 worse than no partition as my Indian friends do. I am of the opinion that Muslim card only helped ML in Bengal and UP Muslims educated classes and that was not sufficient to win a country. It was failure of Congress to deal with it, British agreeing to this principle, a truncated timeline for matters to settle and most of all absence of better than the two existing point of views. I am of the opinion that India should have been divided ethnically as it was proposed none other than British much before independece movement. They proposed dividing India into five separate British colonies for more efficient rule but Queen Victoria vetoed it mainly because she had already given herself title of ``Queen of India`` and ``India as the jewel in her crown``.

Except for the Hindu minority, the Congress was very unpopular in most of the areas currently in Pakistan and that is why they had to rely on Abdul Samad Khan Achakzai in Balochistan (who was a Pashtun and did not represent Balochis) and Khan A Ghaffar Khan (who was a Pashtun and did not represent Hindko speaking population). This was the situation even before ML entered the area as a contender. Poeple in the region has much different experience with history at local level than any Indian unity. For almost 2000 years they had to face wars and plundering with never any help coming from the east. The Muslim rulers kept them backward and used sufis to control masses against any uprising. The British came much later to this area than rest of India and British rule was less than 100 years. Because of the neighboring states, no doubt cultures intermingled and influenced into current India but native ``Pakistanis`` never enjoyed or yearned for power to the east. No native ``Pakistani ever led an army into ``India`` under any Muslim rule. Because of this long independent history, local politics was always much more important than worrying about Bengal, Tamil Nadu or even UP.

There were two main cultural influences from the east and neither helped in any way. One was Brahmanism to a people who have been nominal religious for ages and could not be even classified as Hindus according to the current understanding of Hinduism backed by RSS, VHP and BJP. The other being Urdu coming much later to the urban centers. The Urdu helped produced Urdu literature which was read and understood more outside the region than locals, because locals were mostly illiterate except educated Muslims - less than 10 percent of the population. The lack of the use of local languages really killed any chance of increased literacy for Muslims of the region. Therefore, the comparison of current literacy levels and other social indicators between India and Pakistan or between two Panjabs are not fair because they ignore the starting point. The starting point for Muslims in current Pakistan in education and literacy level was much worse than current differences. Muslims educated class outside Lahore was almost non-existant. Actually the best case for partitioin could be made on comparing current level of education - no matter how bad it looks compared to India - with the levels in 1947. Of course, regretfully, it ignores the hardships and sufferings of outgoing non-Muslim population.

So to the disappointment of many, it was education of the Muslims in UP and Bengal that caused partition much more than the illiterate masses of current Pakistan who were local in all interests. Not only that, to this day, Jamaat-e-Islami puts up most educated candidates of any party in Pakistan and its share of vote in the urban educated middle class is much higher than the national average. The average Pashtun or Panjabi educated Muslim is only a third generation educated whereas many UPites and Bengalis are several generations backed educated Muslims.

Since most of Pakistanis are native Pakistanis, India or Indian history did not play any role for large number of generations. The official Pakistani line and often backed by many Pakistanis here is hardly the majority Pakistani line. This has nothing to do with the education and indoctrination which is nasically anti-India and anti-Hindu and unnecessarily puts to much pressure on Pakistanis to read a history that is not theirs. Same is the case with Urdu language. It is not hteir language but education system and indoctrination has helped it. If India does not matter, then Indian constitution and Indian experience of last 55 years don`t matter either except for the state indoctrinated folks to oppose it. For me Indian secular constitution is good but not sometning to envy, feel jealous, impressed or making it a benchmark for Pakistan.

Not only India, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh in the regioin have similar guarantees of fredom, especially for Bangladesh having the previous experience of religious based partition. It did not take Banglaseshis to climb mountains to have secularism in the constitution. As a Pakistani living abroad, I envy much more with Swiss, Scandenavians, Canadians and USA constitutions. It is not a grat achievemet to reward criminals like Modi with landslide, going every single person involved in the massacre of 2700 Sikhs scot free, killing very large number of Sikhs to deal with Khalistani movement, with 9 out of every ten killed an innocnet. It is not an achievement to have unhappy population who will go to a great length to accepting terrorisists and jihadis help from an enemy country and many small continuing insurgencies, yet only criminals I hear are Dawood Ibrahim and Chota Shakeel, which they certainly are. Pakistan has simlar unhappy Balochis and Bengalsi before them. The only ceiminals they see are NS and BB and not Azam Tariq and Musharraf.

The astral and astounding achievements often mentioned by fellow Indians here are not benchmarks for Pakistanis to be sweating about. A 20 dollars more per capita income despite a better educated public to begin with and mostly due to the successes in the south India is hardly the ultimate target for Pakistanis. Pakistanis are not mouth-watering every day by thinking about astral achievements of India of having 20 dollars better per capita GNP. They want improved standards of living in which Indian ``astral and astounding`` successes do not figure as target.

The biggest problems for Pakistan, in my opinion, have nothing to do with India or Partition. not even Kashmir. It is stupidity of mixing religion with state and high military spending causing poor economy, repeated military takeovers despite very poor record of their strategic thinking and acting. If Bangladesh can do it despite having the same partition experience, so do Pakistan.

The whole issue of literacy and education is also not sole determinant of the success of a nation. Cuba in Americas has third best education, literacy level and health care system behind Canada and USA but it is poorer than Puerto Rico, Bahamas, and host of south American countries with less education. In Europe, Romania and Britain have same literacy level and education levels but Romania can hardly be matched with Britain. Having said that, I do not mean to lower its importance. Having it is definitely better than not having it.

In my opinion, most important thing from Pakistanis view is not solution to kashmir problem or normalization of state level relationship but people to people relationship and freedom to develop brotherly and friendly relationship with the people they like. Obviosuly it will be cultural and ethnic and not just Indians and Pakistanis. I doubt if Asamese and Pashtuns are dying to hug each other and taste each others` cuisines or any Balochi is yearning to visit any place in India. They don`t even like to visit Islamabad. Pakistanis interest in India is mainly with Panjabis and then Upite and Sindhis and small number of Pashtuns. Beyond that there isn`t much Pakistanis are missing, no matter what TFT articles say. These relationships can actually help at state level relationships. I wish that Indian and Pakistani leaders at highest level have bilateral talks should exclude Kashmir three times a year and Kashmir could be on the agenda on every fourth meeting. The more meaningful meeting should be between chiefministers of Panjabs, chiefminister of UP and Mayor of Karachi and so on.

re: faisaluno #128

{a little history lesson here plus a little shikwa. our elders (who were way smarter than us) created pak out of thin air so that we could avoid dealing with creatures that reside in chowk’s naali.}


...why are you pigs sending your babies back to the `naali` for surgeries?...i`ll tell you why...you have become a country of degenerates eternally on the verge of collapse whose greatest claim to fame is terrorism...

...even the afghans kick feces in your faces...

Iraq -- `an ungrateful volcano`` (Churchill)

``The public, the distinguished military analyst wrote from Baghdad, had been led ``into a trap from which it will be hard to escape with dignity and honor.``

``They have been tricked into it by a steady withholding of information,`` he said. ``The Baghdad communiqués are belated, insincere, incomplete.

Things have been far worse than we have been told, our administration more bloody and inefficient than the public knows.``

He added: ``We are today not far from a disaster.``

(T. E. Lawrence — Lawrence of Arabia — writing in The Sunday Times of London on Aug. 22, 1920, about the British occupation of what was then called Mesopotamia.)
(NYT)

---

On July 19, 2003 -- ``we are today not far from a disaster`` -- a disaster that is going to destroy this unworthy government of a cabal of rightwing fascists thugs -- born-again christian goons and their zionist parasites -- that have temporarily captured the US Presidency by default -

this Jihadi Bush adminsitration -- is doomed -- on November 22, 2004 -- if it does not ``escape with dignity and honor`` -- from Iraq -- before the elections....