unflinching idealism ... since 1997 archivessitemapabouthelpfeedback
ideas, identities and interactions
  • Home
  • InFocus
  • Themes
  • Columns
  • Articles
  • Fiction
  • iLogs
  • Gallery
  • Unplugged
  • Writers
  • Interactors
  • Tags
Sign in | Join Chowk
web chowk
  • Article
  • Interact
  • read writer comments
  • add to favorites
  • get rss feeds
  • print
  • email this link

Terrorism, Sectarianism and the Military

Hassan Nasir July 15, 2003

Latest comments   flat   threaded   latest   oldest   all
listing 1-16   1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

#230 Posted by hnasir on November 16, 2003 12:33:40 am
EDITORIAL: Donga Bonga tragedy: some deeper lessons
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_16-11-2003_pg3_1

But there are even deeper causes. It is striking that an entire town should rise up in this manner and essentially cast a vote of no-confidence against the system of governance. Obviously, this can only happen when frustration with the system has been mounting over a period of time, which increasingly seems to be the case all over the country. Pakistan, which has done much to secure itself from external aggression, remains weak internally. The modern security paradigm emphasises human and individual security as much as the collective and external security for a state. But nothing has been done by the Pakistani state for its people and large numbers of citizens in this country live without even the most basic needs. And despite the feel-good indicators of the economy flogged by the spin-doctors of this government, the economy is perceived to be dysfunctional for many common people for whom social services are non-existent, public-sector departments and organisations are corrupt and inefficient; and jobs are scarce.

On top of this the state has abjured its responsibility by either ignoring these needs or applying double standards for treating its subjects. Not knowing the right person in this country has become a sin and people have to find contacts even to get their basic chores done. None of this has to do with learning rocket science; it just needs some empathy and a degree of work ethic. Both are non-existent. Indeed, public-sector organisations operate on the basis of the principle of making people as miserable as possible. This forces people to cut corners to get their jobs done. Overtime Pakistanis have honed the ability to circumvent the rule of law to a fine art. Now we are in a vicious cycle.

The worst part of this situation is the increasingly low tolerance threshold of people and the rising social acceptance of the metaphor of force. Anyone who is more powerful can, and does, have right of way even if it means jumping the queue and breaking all the laws. This metaphor comes down to us right from the top. The military is the most powerful of all and therefore it can violate the constitution and get away with it. This unspoken rule now governs an increasingly fractured society. The army can beat up the police, the police can beat up the citizens, the kabza groups can beat up the individual and among the individuals the more powerful can beat up the feeble. Such is the percolation of the metaphor of power that laws have become a mockery. Take this example. If people in the town of Donga Bonga had been armed like the Baloch tribesmen, the situation would have been explosive and it is even conceivable that instead of the police gunning down citizens it could have been the other way round. Even so, the people decided on collective protest and action in order not only to vent their frustration with the system but also to effect a change. All because the system has broken down and cannot even function at the very basic level. None of this will come out in the inquiry reports. Some people might be punished. But the deeper causes will not be addressed and Donga Bonga will repeat itself somewhere else and perhaps more violently.

General Pervez Musharraf promised to reform the system. People are now despaired of that promise. If no one wept over the demise of democracy when General Musharraf took over it was because the political parties had failed the people. General Musharraf is even more precariously balanced. What good is Pakistan’s strong defence against external aggression if the enterprise is rotting internally?
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#229 Posted by hnasir on October 7, 2003 11:18:17 pm
What are the agencies doing?
By Ansar Abbasi

ISLAMABAD: The terrorists are out yet again. Last week they killed several in Karachi and now they have slaughtered Maulana Azam Tariq and four others in Islamabad. What are the country’s intelligence agencies doing?

The fresh wave of terrorist attacks has once again badly exposed the intelligence agencies incompetence to hunt down the terrorist networks in the country. Even for a common man Maulana Azam Tariq of the proscribed Sipah-e-Sahaba Pakistan was an obvious target of sectarian terrorism but still he was killed in such a daredevil manner in brought daylight right in Islamabad.

The last week carnage of eight innocent SUPARCO officials in Karachi was also a trouble-free affair for the terrorists who simply vanished for the security agencies soon after their killing spree.

It is believed that terrorism could not be curbed unless the intelligence agencies are revamped and depoliticised. It has been resolved many times in the past to run the intelligence agencies professionally instead of using them for the making and breaking of the governments. However, seldom practical measures were taken.

It was admitted that the intelligence agencies of the country had so far concentrated on political intelligence and had been used to attain the political objectives of the successive governments. Contrary to their condemned role of harassing/influencing or following politicians, it was said, there was an immediate need that these agencies should infiltrate terrorist groups to find out their contacts, plans of action and modus operandi.

It was resolved that the intelligence agencies would be geared up for provision of tactical and strategic information with complete analysis so that pre-emptive action could be taken against the terrorist organisations/individuals. Even at that stage the government expressed its dissatisfaction about the overall performance of the agencies particularly in their role of checking crime particularly terrorism.

The agencies it was noted were providing information and reports after the event had taken place, which was even otherwise available through the print media. So much of good things were said but ironically hardly anything was done to depoliticise the agencies. Rather what we later saw was the ``tailoring`` of democracy through these agencies.

What to talk of politics and politicians, journalists are also being monitored by the agencies. Recent encounters with officials of two leading intelligence agencies proved to be depressing for this correspondent for the main reason that the agencies have been investing their time and money to collect information about many journalists including this scribe. Phone tapping of politicians, selected journalists, key officials and even ministers and judges was a routine in the past and is believed to be still in fashion.

It is believed that the agencies can be made effective by organising them in a manner that they could provide tactical and strategic information with complete analysis so that pre-emptive action could be taken before the planned event. But the question is if the agencies could be spared for this prime duty of theirs?

Recent developments and encounters with officials of leading intelligence agencies of the country show that the intelligence network of the country continues to tail the politicians, the journalists and others who are suspected by the rulers.

The role of the agencies in the pre and post-government formation stages was so conspicuous that it was discussed by all and sundry. Even the role of the agencies in ``tailoring`` the democracy for the country was discussed in the parliament.

In this situation how could there be a check on the terrorist networks. Realising well the cost of the politicised agencies, General Musharraf had once directed, during his tenure as country’s chief executive, to revamp the country’s agencies to run them on professional lines so as to track down the terrorist networks in the country. At that time President Musharraf while expressing his concern over the continuing incidents of terrorism in the country had directed the intelligence agencies to reorientate their focus to criminal activities, sectarian violence and terrorism instead of political intelligence.

http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/oct2003-daily/08-10-2003/main/main10.htm
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#228 Posted by mumbaikar on October 1, 2003 12:36:28 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#227 Posted by harimau on July 26, 2003 10:27:53 am
Ref dost-mittar #226

[Does Pakistan really care about the welfare of Kashmiris?]

They do. About as much as they cared for the welfare of Bengalis in the erstwhile East Pakistan.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#226 Posted by dost_mittar on July 25, 2003 7:31:44 pm
romair:
This thread is almost dead. So, we`ll take up your response some other place. In the meantime, if you are still following this thread, here is something from a leader of your favourite JKLF:

Does Pakistan really care about the welfare of Kashmiris?
Dr Shabir Choudhry
London, July 19


Bigger Picture

It has become habit of us Kashmiris to criticise with full force whatever India does wrong in Kashmir and turn a blind eye when Pakistan does something wrong. It is partly due to this wrong policy of Kashmiris that we are still forcibly divided and continue to suffer.

We should learn to call spade a spade, and criticise both governments on their Kashmir policies and human rights abuses in their respective parts of Kashmir. By only criticising India and by ignoring wrong doings of Pakistan we have played into the hands of Pakistani agencies who wanted to give this message to the world that it is only the Indian side of Kashmir which is disputed and Kashmiris on Pakistani side of the divide are happy with Pakistan.

That aside I want to focus my attention on just one aspect of Pakistan’s policy towards people of Azad Kashmir, and that will give some idea of how much love and care Pakistani authorities have for people of Kashmir.

The government of Pakistan built a dam known as the Mangla Dam in a disputed territory of Azad Kashmir. The construction of the dam was fiercely opposed by the local people of Mirpur, but this opposition was ruthlessly put down by the Punjab constabulary and militia, and the project
was completed in 1967.

The dam uprooted more than 20,000 families, and people were forced to leave their homes and graves of their love ones. They were told that in order to meet water and energy needs of Pakistan this dam has to be built; but they were promised that they will be compensated generously for this sacrifice.

Some of the things promised to them were as follows:

• Alternative residential plots
• Compensation for loss of business
• Alternative allotments for loss of irrigational land
• Free electricity
• Free Water supply
• A railway station and a railway line connecting Mirpur with national rail network of Pakistan
• 50 per cent quota for employment
• Royalty for the dam to be paid to Azad Kashmir government

It is unfortunate to note that most of the promises were not honoured by Pakistan. To date not a single penny has been given as a royalty, the electricity people of Mirpur get is ineffective and expensive, there is no railway line or railway station in Mirpur or anywhere in Azad Kashmir, there is inadequate supply of drinking water and still, there are more than 8,000 families who have not got their allotments.

Thousands who got allotments in various parts of Pakistan were unable to get possession of land, and because of intimidation and discriminatory treatment of the local people and local administration, were forced to return to Mirpur.

Double standard of WAPDA
The above scenario should be compared with the construction of the Tarbela Dam in Pakistan which was constructed after the Mangla dam. Of course construction of this dam also uprooted families and villages, but they were properly compensated and resettled. The government of North-West Frontier had a written agreement with the WAPDA (Water And Power Development Authority), and used its power and influence to implement it in letter and spirit.

Evidence of this could be seen by news release of the WAPDA issued on June 27, 2003, which reads, and I quote: ‘WAPDA, in spite of its financial limitations, discharged its full and final liability towards Net Hydel Profit to the North-West Frontier Province, well ahead of the fiscal year closure date June 30, 2003``.

According to the details, Article 161(2) of the Constitution provides for payment of net hydel profit to the provinces. The amount due to be paid to NWFP for the year 2002-03 as fixed by the Government of Pakistan comes to Rs 6 billion. WAPDA has been regularly paying Net Hydel Profit to the Government of NWFP in spite of its financial problems. It may be recalled that for the years 1991-92 to 2001-2002 the North-West Frontier Province received an amount of Rs 65.662 billion against the projected amount of Rs 57.425 billion.

In other words, the Province has received Rs. 8.237 billion in excess during the above mentioned period.’ WAPDA Chairman is boasting that they have paid 8.237 billion Rupees in excess to the provincial government of North West Frontier and that is a share of profit for the Tarbela dam. We have a dam in Mirpur for which not a single penny has been paid to the government of Azad
Kashmir since 1967.

Income from the Mangla Dam is around 7 billion Rupees per annum, and the dam has been operational and making profit for the Pakistani authorities for past 36 years. And if we multiply these two figures then we get a total of around 252 billion, and that is what government of Pakistan owes to Azad Kashmir, but there is no hope of receiving that because Pakistani officials treat Azad Kashmiris differently and less favourably.

This situation is to be compared with the fact that planning for the Mangla dam and Kala Bagh dam started around same time in early 1950s. Both proposed constructions were opposed by the local people. Despite opposition of people of Mirpur a dam was completed in 1967, but for Kala Bagh dam despite millions spent in different studies and feasibility reports, as to date not even a foundation brick is laid down due to fierce opposition from the local people and some powerful
land lords.

Our opposition was put down by force; but their opposition was not put down by force but attempts have been made to offer them generous compensations. This shows how we the people of Azad Kashmir are treated differently and less favourably.

Kashmiris had better deal under the British Raj. It looks that the British government of undivided India had more respect and care for the people of Kashmir. Upper Jhelum Canal was constructed in 1914; this canal before entering, what is now Pakistani territory near Sarai Alamgir, runs through a Kashmiri territory.

The British Government of the time negotiated an agreement with the Maharaja government, and it had a number of benefits for the people of Kashmir, including payment of royalty of 1.7 million Rupees annually. Despite difficult times during the World Wars and recessions of 1930s, this amount was regularly paid by the Punjab government of the time to the Maharaja government every year. After the partition of India these areas which are irrigated by the Upper Jhelum Canal became part of Pakistan, and since then no money is being paid to the government of Azad Kashmir which Pakistan claims to be the legitimate government representing the whole of Kashmir.

Salient points of the agreement between the British Government and the Maharaja government are as follows:

1. For the Upper Jhelum Canal the Maharaja will give his land, but it will be treated as a state territory and any land not used for the canal purposes will be returned to the state.
2. The government of Punjab will pay yearly compensation for the land affected, equal to revenue generated by this land.
3. The people of Kashmir will have right to use water free of any charge to irrigate their land.
4. The people of Kashmir will have right to construct mills or other
grinding factories run by the use of water as a source of energy.
5. Government of Punjab will at their own expenses construct bridges along the rout of the canal that people of Kashmir can easily cross with their livestock and cattle carts.
6. If due to flood or some other means, damage is caused by the canal
to property or crops in Kashmir, the government of Punjab will be responsible to pay compensation to local people.
7. The government of Punjab will pay compensation for all buildings, property or wells affected by the canal construction.
8. Any material brought in to State for the construction of the canal from outside of the State, the government of Punjab will have to pay royalty on each item.
9. The State government allows the Punjab government to build different residential and other commercial buildings to facilitate the construction work, but they will have to pay for any land used for such purpose.
10. Before the start of the work a clear rout of the canal has to be finalised ensuring that place of worship of any religion is not affected.
11. And people working on the canal will respect local laws and customs,and will not bring any item for consumption which is not permitted in the State.

Alternative to upraising
With the passage of time all dams lose their ability to store water, but proper maintenance helps to overcome this problem. The Mangla dam had a life span of over 100 year, but due to poor maintenance the storage capacity has reduced; but at the same time supply of water coming to Mangla Dam has also reduced considerably. The present supply of water is insufficient to even fill the existing water storage capacity, but authorities are bent on upraising the dam height which will further uproot more than 100,00 people of Azad Kashmir.

The Tarbela dam also has silting problem, and its capacity to store water has reduced, but WAPDA is looking at a feasibility report prepared by an American company, Tames, to de-silt the dam in order to increase its storage capacity. A similar report was prepared by Chinese experts, as well.

The same method of de-silting was suggested to WAPDA with regard to the Mangla dam. But WAPDA has decided to upraise the dam at the cost of Rs 64 billion, and it will surely uproot more than 100,000 people and create hatred and tension between Kashmiris and Pakistan.

It is believed that by de-silting the dam, water storing capacity could be increased considerably and it will only cost around Rs 6 billion, and it won’t uproot any of the people living around Mirpur. The mud taken out of the dam could have been used to level waste land areas of Khalqa bad, Kakarra Town, Akalgarh, Jarri Kass etc., to prepare new residential plots to resettle people who still have not got their allotments since 1967.

Also, the Pakistani government owes millions of rupees in rent which is due to the government of Azad Kashmir for the State property situated in different parts of Pakistan. Before the Parturition of India, the Maharaja of Jammu and Kashmir received an annual rent for his properties from the then British Indian governments, and this stopped only after the Pakistani government took over these properties.

(Views expresed are of the author only. Writer is a Chairman of JKLF Diplomatic Committee, and author of many books and booklets on Kashmir.)
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#225 Posted by rsridhar on July 24, 2003 6:56:07 pm
re:#219 by ahmadzai
It is my painful duty to inform you Sir that the ``U-turn`` that you talk about is no U-turn at all. It was a tactical ploy by Mushy to save his A$$. Uncle Sam is increasingly being vocal about the ``double game`` played by Mushy. Pak continues to support Taliban in a covert way.

http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/insight/articles/eav072303a.shtml

``Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf renounced support for the Taliban in September 2001, weeks before the start of the anti-terrorism offensive. [For background see the Eurasia Insight archive]. But today, many Afghan, foreign and United Nations experts – including some who had previously been friendly to Pakistan – suspect the Pakistani leadership has resumed providing covert support to the radical Islamic movement. Some diplomats contend that Musharraf, his army, and the powerful security agency known as the Inter-Services Intelligence are directly supporting the Taliban as a matter of state policy``
This article will tell you how Pak has lost ground to India in Afghanistan. Pak`s military ruler, who lacks a strategic and political vision in Afghanistan has been leading Pak into an abyss.

Read what Ahmad Rashid has to say in Washington times:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20030720-103238-3908r.htm

``Hundreds of Taliban fighters have crossed into the country from Pakistan and are claiming large swathes of territory, the American commander of coalition forces in Kabul said yesterday``

``Pakistan denies it is helping the Taliban, but has done little to stop their activities. U.S. officials said they will be taking up the issue of Taliban operating from Pakistan when Gen. John Abizaid, the new commander of the U.S. Central Command, visits Islamabad next week.
Relations between Kabul and Islamabad are already tense. On Friday, Pakistani soldiers and Afghan fighters exchanged artillery and mortar fire across their disputed border at Baba-Doud, near the Khyber Pass. ``
This is what your military ruler has done. You now have adversaries at both borders. India simply hates Mushy and Afghan has no love for him either.
What Pak lost in Afghanistan, India has gained:
http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/jul2003-daily/13-07-2003/oped/o3.htm

Even though the foundations of economic progress was laid by Nehru govt, it was BJP which went ahead full steam with liberalisation. It has also embarked upon a number of infrstructural activities like nationwide building of freeways, liberalising the Telephonry to name a few. Of course, to Nehru alone goes the credit of laying the foundation of IITs which later saw IT boom in India (many of the Silcon valley Gurus are product of IITs).

I do agree that the economic progress happening in India is contingent on a number of things. You have rightly pointed out HIV as one big problem. India, being a poor country, does not have the resources to deal with a huge HIV epidemic. Hence, this could indeed become a big problem and if not tackled properly, has the potential to slow down India`s progress in future.
sridhar





reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#224 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 24, 2003 2:28:36 am
Arjun_m @ 221:

Couple of excellent posts from your side to prove that you do not know anything about economics and principles like bipartisanism.

Now please do what you are good at - copy and paste long thrash Pakistan articles that I promise I will read. I wish you all the best in the endeavor you know best to undertake. Leave the rest for others.

:-)
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#223 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 24, 2003 2:28:36 am
Bbabu at # 222:

You joined this discussion very late and the points that you are making since post # 198 have already been discussed in detail earlier.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#222 Posted by bbabu on July 23, 2003 5:48:16 pm
ahmadzai #220

`` Yet we know that the `civilized world` attacked Iraq on pretexts and evidences that are being proven wrong and are being questioned even in the camps of the leaders who went ahead with the invasion. ``

Are you a water boy for Saddam ?


`` The `civilized world` annhiliated Red Indians and later admitted that was a mistake.``

Not too different from what Islamic Caliphs did to the pre-Islamic cultures in the Middle East ?

`` The `civilized world` killed and maimed millions of vietnamese and later admitted that was a mistake.``

If Americans were so barbaric the Vietnamese have no ill feelings towards the Americans. It has been less than 30 years since the end of the war.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#221 Posted by arjun_m on July 23, 2003 12:19:49 pm
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#220 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 23, 2003 10:47:54 am
harish-hyd:

``Mulla Ahmadzai``.

:-D
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#219 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 23, 2003 10:47:54 am
sridhar and harish-hyd:

Thanks for posting relevant articles and links.

It is because of the past follies that Pakistan under the leadership of Musharraf took a u-turn from Mulla led extremism towards modernization, from self-destruction to progress and development.

However, the point to ponder is that India is taking a u-turn from secularism to fundamentalism, from progress and development that comes from setting oneself free of religious taboos to destruction of its previously peaceful society. Yet you condone the extremist Government because:

1. You continue to hold Pakistan accountable for all the ``misdeeds``, especially subsequent to 9/11 and with your growing frustration in Kashmir, where the ``misdeeds`` were committed in the past and we have resolved to take a u-turn in our approach.

2. You people are currently reaping economic benefits the foundations of which were laid not by the current Government but by the seculars of the yore. If your Government continues on the path of confrontation then I am afraid that you will lose out e.g. to growing menace of HIV.

But it is up to you folks to decide whether the path you people have chosen leads you to the well-being or not. As a Pakistani, I believe that we have made a u-turn for the betterment. We should have taken it in the mid-90s though. We are a trifle late.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#218 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 23, 2003 10:47:54 am
arjun-m at 204:

Yet we know that the `civilized world` attacked Iraq on pretexts and evidences that are being proven wrong and are being questioned even in the camps of the leaders who went ahead with the invasion.

Also note that:

1. The `civilized world` annhiliated Red Indians and later admitted that was a mistake.

2. The `civilized world` annhiliated the wildlife on American planes and later claimed that was a mistake.

3. The `civilized world` killed and maimed millions of vietnamese and later admitted that was a mistake.

Already, the `civilized world` is coming under scathing attacks from former Presidents (who generally tend to be bi-partisans) and from humanists on its policies on war against terrorism and w.r.t. discriminatory laws.

Only the most biased of mindsets will condone the discriminatory policies of the USA troika.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#217 Posted by dost_mittar on July 23, 2003 6:58:05 am
Romair#212
I acknowledge your response. Some answeres are less satisfactory than others. My ``chowk time`` right now is mostly taken up by responding to the ``Hey Ram`` article. I`ll respond to you later on this thread if it is alive or another one. Thanks.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#216 Posted by Assad_K on July 23, 2003 6:49:17 am
Harish, lad, re: 215

Get with the program... that particular gem has already been posted! Glad you gave us the source, though... a magazine thats fascinatingly right wing, inclusing the following petition on its website:

`My friend, there is a Fifth Column in America, an enemy within. It`s the so-called ``peace movement.`` Sign the e-petition to EXPOSE THE ENEMY WITHIN to editors and producers of the nation`s largest newspapers, news magazines, and network newsrooms.`

Wooo!

Cheers, AK
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#215 Posted by harish_hyd on July 22, 2003 11:51:28 pm
Now, here`s some more news for Captain Clueless, HisDelinquency, and Mullah Ahmadzai, the staunchest supporters of the Paki Army.

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=8931

Will History Repeat Itself in Pakistan?
By Arindam Banerji
FrontPageMagazine.com | July 16, 2003

“It was recognized from the first that a campaign of genocide would be necessary to eradicate the threat: ``Kill three million of them,`` said President (general) Yahya Khan at the February conference, ``and the rest will eat out of our hands``. On March 25 (1971) the genocide was launched. The university in Dacca was attacked and students exterminated in their hundreds. Death squads roamed the streets of Dacca, killing some 7,000 people in a single night. It was only the beginning. ``Within a week, half the population of Dacca had fled, and at least 30,000 people had been killed. Chittagong, too, had lost half its population. All over East Pakistan people were taking flight, and it was estimated that in April some thirty million people were wandering helplessly across East Pakistan to escape the grasp of the military.`` – Robert Payne, Massacre [1972]

Paraphrasing Christopher Hitchens, every decade or so, the US writes a blank check to some obscure dictator in Pakistan, and the Pakistani army happily uses this free ride to perpetrate genocide in its neighborhood.
In the 70’s, we turned a blind eye while Gen. Yahya killed millions in Bangladesh, with a kill rate that would put Hitler to shame. Even after the US congress cried foul and the US ambassador to Bangladesh declared “genocide in Bangladesh”, Nixon and Kissinger praised Yahya and sent him arms to aid in the killing. In the nineties, after the Russians had left Afghanistan, the Pakistani army happily armed, fed, financed and trained a band of jihadi hoodlums, now known to us as the Taliban; of course, the Taliban directly caused the death of hundreds of thousands of Afghan civilians in the nineties. While the cleansing continued unabated, oil executives busily negotiated oil-pipelines with the Taliban, with nary a consequence for the Pakistanis.

After 911, writing blank checks to the Pakistanis seems to have come back in vogue. The only question that remains unanswered is – where will the genocide be, this time?

Terrorizing the Neighbors

The answer may be slowly becoming clear. Selig Harrison discussing Pakistani terrorist training camps, in the Boston Globe says “India has recently provided the United States with detailed maps showing 174 locations where Pakistani base camps of varying sizes are now operating. State Department and Defense Intelligence Agency sources say that US reconnaissance satellite findings broadly corroborate the Indian maps”. Not only has Nancy Powell, the US ambassador to Pakistan, called Pakistan a platform for terror, but Mike Evanoff, the US embassy`s (in Islamabad) chief of diplomatic security, the State Department`s version of the Secret Service, had the following to say about Pakistan to Christian Science Monitor: ``This is the epicenter for terrorism. It really is. This is the only country I know in the world that has so many groups that are against the US or Western ideals.``.

Bernard-Henri Levy’s goes even further in his recently published book - “Pakistan is the most delinquent of nations”, he confirms. With the caveat that Pakistan is the real key to all Islamic-led international terrorism, he says “the US had solved only 1% of the problem by deposing Saddam Hussein”. And rightfully so, if you see the impact on Pakistan’s neighbors.
In India, Pakistani terrorists or freedom fighters as Musharraf likes to call them, regularly create headlines like:

• “Suspected Islamic militants axed to death six members of a shepherd`s family overnight …The attackers killed four women and two children, the officer said.”
• “Militants slit the throats of two women, shot dead another person and set off two explosions damaging a bridge …”
• “Terrorists lob grenade into Christian school, kill one teacher…”
• “Terrorists have slit the throats of two of the four policemen abducted after the attack on a police post in Udhampur on Sunday.”
• “Unidentified gunmen barged into a house in a remote village of Mandi. The irked gunmen in an attempt to punish the lady Sharifa Bi wife of Muhammad Husain put her on fire and then extinguished the flames to let her die in pain.”
• “Women Killed over dress-code. The attackers slit the throats of two of the women, both aged 21, and shot the third,…”

Rest assured, this is equal opportunity terrorism. President Karzai seems to be unhappy, as the NYTimes reports “Karzai has blamed the recent wave of violence across the south of the country and in Kabul on Pakistan-based terrorists”. Col Tom Brewer, of the US special Forces, talking about illegal arms seized in Afghanistan says “The arms they’ve recovered are made in China and most of the people are coming back in from neighboring countries, particularly Pakistan”. This negative view of Pakistani interference in Afghanistan, seems to be shared by the Europeans, too:

“European legislators visiting Afghanistan this week were outspoken at a news conference today in their criticism of Pakistan`s support for Taliban elements, which they said were crossing from Pakistan to launch attacks in southern Afghanistan, disappearing later back across the border”. -NYTimes

Cross-border terrorism it seems is continuing on both of Pakistani borders. Surely, Pakistan must be helping us out a lot, for us to tolerate all this?

Pakistan’s Help With Proliferation

Come to think of it, we have very generously given away billions in grants and loan forgiveness with the expectation of Pakistan’s help in the war on terrorism. Pakistan in turn, used the C-130s loaned by us to fight terror, to continue a generous barter trade of nuclear weapons technology with North Korea. A Japanese newspaper quoting US security officials, claimed that this trade continued as late as March of 2003, months after the friendly Pakistani dictator, Musharraf, had given Powell a 400% guarantee that such hanky-panky with North Korea was a thing of the past.

North Korea, however is not the only member of the axis of evil that has benefited from Pakistan’s generosity; talking about the Iran’s Natanz atomic power plant, Jane’s goes even further “the Natanz inspections also showed that the gas centrifuges, believed to be based on a decades-old European design that US officials said was obtained from Pakistan in the early 1990s…”. Nucleonics week reported essentially the same facts in January of this year – the evidence of Pakistani support to Iran’s weapons program seems to be mounting.

Another sign of the expansion of this deadly trade is reported by Geo-strategy Direct; it seems that the Saudi royals want to keep up with the nuclear-minded Iranian mullahs. So, who comes to the rescue – you guessed it, the dependable Pakistanis. Turns out that, not only have the Pakistanis been handing over nuclear technology to the Saudi princes, but they also facilitated the sale of Chinese CSS-2 missiles to the kingdom. The report further states “Saudi Arabia has been secretly obtaining help from Pakistan for its missile and nuclear program, the analysts report. Riyadh helped finance Pakistan`s nuclear program precisely to ensure that the royal family will have a bomb in case of an emergency… Saudi Arabia has neither the time nor the expertise for a nuclear program. The Saudis saw how Israel knocked out the Iraqi reactor at Osirak in 1981 and set back Baghdad`s program by a decade. Instead, the Saudis are expected to merely buy complete warheads and obtain Pakistani experts to maintain and operate the systems”. Maybe, this explains why several Pakistani nuclear scientists have disappeared without a trace in recent months, according to the South Asia Tribune.

As if handing out nuclear weapons technology to dangerous threesome of North Korea, Iran and Saudi Arabia was not enough, Eliza Manningham-Buller, the director general of the MI5, recently warned that “it was only a matter of time before Al-Qaeda terrorists carried out nuclear, chemical or biological attack on a western city”. She further added ``renegade scientists`` - understood to be from Pakistan - had given Islamic extremists information to create weapons of mass destruction, such as ``dirty bombs``, and that they would become ever more sophisticated.

US reaction to this wanton proliferation has been surprisingly muted – limited sanctions on a particular lab (KRL), which in any case, gets no help from the US, whatsoever. Sure, the occasional Al-Qaeda big-wig or two get miraculously located somewhere in Pakistan every 6 months, and more are caught every time Musharraf visits our coasts, but is this reason enough for us to ignore proliferation to North Korea, KSA, Iran and AlQaeda? Who thought up this quid-pro-quo?
Curt put-downs from Foggy-bottom to any such protests, usually go something like this “If Musharraf fails, hardliners could take over, or fundamentalists, or chaos. We can`t let Musharraf fail”.

Where is Musharraf Taking Pakistan?

Using his vast powers, Musharraf held a Saddam like referendum on his rule last year, in which he was the only candidate and received a whopping 98% approval. This aversion to democracy has forced several noted Pakistani journalists to flee to the US, thanks to threats to their lives by the army. Determined to keep democratic forces at bay, Musharraf jerry-rigged elections where the main secular parties were hamstrung. Needless to say, the jihadi parties under the banner of MMA gained control in 2 out of 4 provinces in Pakistan. The elected prime minister now is reduced to calling the dictator his boss and the dictator has not dared to formally open proceedings at the National Assembly for the last 7 months, in fear of protests against his rule.

Not happy, with throttling the press, paralyzing the National assembly and helping the Taliban-like MMA come to power, Musharraf seems to have turned on ordinary Pakistanis now.

Talking about recent army violence in the town of Okara, prominent educationist Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy says, “As I stood by the blood-spattered earth next to a wall pock-marked with bullets, grim-faced villagers indicated to me the field from where they said the Rangers had ceaselessly machine-gunned the village for over an hour. For all practical purposes, the nearly one million people of Okara are under military occupation but Pakistan`s political parties, which vociferously scream at being denied their share of the pie, are yet to take note of this. Why are they doing this, I asked one villager from the crowd that was now swarming around me. ``They (the Pakistani military) want to put us on contract, pay rent to them, take away our rights to the land, and then throw us out``, he replied, but this land is ours because our forefathers have tilled it and we have nowhere else to go”.

So, in order to allow our favorite dictator to hold on to his throne, we’re tolerating brutalization and murder of ordinary Pakistanis and even journalists. Problem is we’ve seen this pattern before – remember how we propped up the Shah of Iran.
Radical Islamization of Pakistan

The rigged elections from last year are beginning to achieve exactly what we’ve been trying to avoid – a radical Islamist nuclear-powered Pakistan. The MMA recently passed Taliban like draconian laws in the province of NWFP. Time magazine detailing newly promulgated laws:

“From now on, Arabic, the language of the Koran, will be obligatory in schools; girls 12 years and older will have to wear the head-to-toe veil known as the burqa, and women will not be allowed to leave home unaccompanied by a husband or male relative”.

Further, there’s now a department called Hisab (accounting) in NWFP which does pretty much what the dreaded Department of promotion of virtue and prevention of vice did for the Taliban. Fresh of the press – Balochistan province just announced, it’s next in line to promulgate the sharia based legal system. Two (provinces) down, two more to go.

This radical Islamisation is not limited anymore to Pakistani politics. In Lahore’s respected Punjab University “last month, professors of English literature were flabbergasted when they learned that a top administrator had ordered their curriculum reviewed for un-Islamic texts. Among the books deemed offensive to public morals: Gulliver`s Travels and Tess of the d`Urbervilles… the university`s academic council (even) engaged in heated debate over whether to drop English as a requirement, as fundamentalist groups have urged``. Islamist vigilantes in Lahore, Peshawar and Multan have begun painting bill-boards showing women’s faces black, and “food streets”, much like food courts in our malls, are being shut down to prevent “mixing of the sexes and prostitution”.

According to the Washington Post, professors who have been ordered not to discuss the book bans, confide that all this is a microcosm of the political environment in the country. Famous Pakistani author Ahmed Rashid feels that this cultural change, spreading throughout the country, has primarily been fostered by the military government.
The ominous part of all this is that theocratic governments and societies are rarely, if ever removed or changed, without massive violence and use of power.

Pakistani Army vs. Pakistan

Strong arm tactics and outright commandeering have left the army in Pakistan in control of all financial establishments of any value, including travel agencies, utilities, cement production, fertilizer factories, dairy production, employment agencies, rice mills, sea-ports, postal service, telecommunication infrastructure, oil/gas plants, pharmaceuticals, mines, wool mills and cereal production, to name a few. And no, this is not limited to just legal economic activities, but also extends to illegal ones – Kamila Hayat reports that a number of illegal gambling dens are coming up all over the country, run and owned by army personnel. You get the idea – everything and everything, legal and sometimes even illegal ones, in Pakistan, seem to belong to the Pakistani army.

Quips Khayyam Durrani, who runs an elite school only meant for army children ``The army considers itself a privileged class. The fact is that the actual rulers in Pakistani society are the army people..”.
These privileges and whims of the ruling army are slowly creating a divide that will never be bridged with American money or Musharraf’s guns. A perfect example of this widening divide was the open threat to ban Musharraf’s entry into NWFP, issued recently by Syed Munawar Hassan, a top leader of the MMA religious alliance. The vitriol in the Balochistan post article against the army is even more palpable, when it says:

“With guns given to them by the nation to counter the enemy, the generals instead, have held the Mother country, its people, its parliament and the judiciary to ransom. …The Army has become above the law, above the constitution and even above the country. It feeds on the country`s prosperity and the well being its people who now, are trudging an existence simply to serve the army and its selected elites.”.

The army is not only immune from the law, but also dispenses its own brand of justice. A report in the Gulf Times, reports:
“The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan recently investigated a case in Multan where army officials had placed a banner outside a textile shop, asking all military men to boycott it. This mysterious message outside a commercial business had been motivated by the fact that the shop owner, Aslam Shahzad, had testified in a case involving an army officer and a policeman in a scuffle”. Other similar incidents, where police officers have lost their jobs for going up against the army, are also related in the report. In fact, as Kamila states, patriotism today is increasingly tied to what is good for the Pakistani army, not what is good for Pakistan:

“Indeed, the perception that civilians are today second class citizens in the state is growing. And with the army top brass apparently seeing any attempts to highlight wrongs committed by men in khaki as unpatriotic behavior…”.
Abid Ullah Jan, yet another journalist who had to flee Pakistan due to his opinions on the army, concludes his pensive article on “Pak army vs. Pakistan” with “In the final analysis we would come to know that Pakistan was not at war with India or someone else, but its own armed forces”.

This is not a country moving towards democracy, but towards anarchy – unfortunately, with American help. Problem is, we’ve seen this pattern before - the current situation is exactly the same as in late 1970 and early 1971 – provinces elected a government that the army did not like and the rift between the army and the citizens of East Pakistan exploded. Result – 3 million civilians killed, 300000 women raped in 9 short months.

M.A. Niazi in his editorial in the Nation seems to predict the oncoming obvious “There is therefore one solution which solves for the foreseeable future Musharraf`s problems, and serves US interests. And that is for him to let loose a reign of terror on Pakistan, to establish a true dictatorship”. Eerily similar to Gen. Yahya Khan’s decision in 1971 to perpetrate genocide, in order to solve his problems.

Where Next?

It may suit our immediate interests to coddle this dictator, but let us not forget that we were doing the same to another dictator in Iraq till a few years ago. The difference is that this dictator actually does have nuclear weapons, has donated nuclear weapons technology to rogue states and does have nuclear scientists with strong linkages to the Osama. Terrorism against friendly governments like Afghanistan and India continue everyday under the very noses of the army that controls all activity in Pakistan. We did not learn from our mistakes with the Shah and naively repeated them with Saddam; now, we see a repetition of this unfortunate habit with Musharraf. Sadly, Shenoy gets it about right:

“The general has trampled on every principle Americans supposedly cherish — separation of church and state, democracy and free elections, an independent judiciary and the rule of law. Yet, as long as the Pakistani army does not openly embrace bin Laden, the United States shall support the dictator of Pakistan.”

Free Trade agreements and weapons of war like F-16s given unfettered to a brutal dictatorship with a penchant for terrorism may not be the best thing for the safety of US or its friends. In our hurry to bestow gifts on the genocidal dictator, let us not leave our national interests and abiding principles behind. Both our strategic interests and our principles, call for the support of the Pakistani people, and not the Pakistani dictator.

Contrary to popular perceptions, Musharraf is not the only solution to key US interests in Pakistan - remedial steps to bring Pakistan back into the comity of respected nations is the only way forward. In stead of papering over problems specific to Pakistan through our injudicious support for Musharraf, we must deal with them directly, as in:
• Strengthen legitimate democratic leadership: Benazir Bhutto must be brought back with appropriate forgiveness of charges and a critical role to play in the administration of Pakistan, even if this means a re-election.
• Strengthen democratic institutions: Drop arbitrary modifications to the Pakistani constitution as well as revoke the supremacy of non-elected bodies such as the National Security council – the elected National assembly and the existing constitution must become supreme again, with some temporary support for maintaining Musharraf’s position through the transition.
• Send army back to the barracks: Armies that own countries tend to cause immense destruction. The army’s stranglehold over the economy and civilian organizations must be loosened – political corruption is a fact of life with almost all other countries in Asia and should not be used as an excuse to let the army loot the nation.
• Reform Pakistani education: Without significant changes to curricula in schools, the radicalization of Pakistani society cannot be reversed. Aid dollars must be tied to metrics reflecting a change in the direction of education. This is the only solution to stopping the endless supply of terrorists.

• Reform in Charitable and financial institutions: Charity money is used to fuel terrorism in Pakistan – without this money and strengthened financial institutions, terrorism will starve. Without terrorism, problems with neighbor India can be resolved peacefully.

Strengthening democracy and reforming education will automatically start improving Pakistan’s economy and its relationship with other democracies like India; thus, reducing the need for WMD proliferation dollars. Pakistan’s problems with nuclear neighbor India and the rest of the world will not disappear until we cure Pakistan’s internal ills. At the cost of repeating myself, almost any cure of Pakistan has to start with limiting the role of the Pakistani army and bringing in democracy, and sadly enough things have become so convoluted in Pakistan, only America can help fix things at this point. In effect, much like the US is undertaking nation-building in Iraq, it has to do the same in Pakistan – Pakistan, probably needs this more than any other country in the world.

If we’re not careful and do not take remedial action in Pakistan soon, there will be another genocide; who knows where it’ll be, but 1971 is here again - maybe in India this time, may be Afghanistan, or quite possibly in Pakistan, itself like ‘71. Or heaven forbid, as Physicist Gordon Prather, predicting a nuclear attack on the US suggests:
“ Who did it? Probably al-Qaida. But where did they get the nuke? Well, nukes leave ``fingerprints.`` Our radio-chemists are going to know right away if the nuke came from Pakistan, the most likely source.”

Arindam Banerji, Ph.D., is an Indian-American entrepreneur in Silicon valley with an expertise in geopolitics and US-India relations.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#214 Posted by harish_hyd on July 22, 2003 10:40:05 pm
Well for much of the civilized world, an industry would mean a factory where automobiles or electronic goods etc. are manufactured. However in Pakiland, it could well mean something very different. Is Mullah Ahmadzai listening? And no, please don`t give me the standard Paki cr@p about this article being biased against good ole` Pakiland. If you observe closely, the writer is a Paki himself.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/oneworld/20030721/wl_oneworld/105021058792550


Jihad Industry Gathers Steam in Pakistan

Mon Jul 21, 8:26 AM ET Add World - OneWorld.net to My Yahoo!
Mohammad Shehzad, OneWorld South Asia

ISLAMABAD, July 21 (OneWorld) - Fuelled by the US-led invasion of Iraq (news - web sites), and the promise of paradise after martyrdom, thousands of impoverished young Pakistanis are allegedly enrolling for jihad (holy war) despite the ongoing war against terror.

``Jihad is spreading like wildfire in Pakistan,`` claims an official in the country`s Interior Ministry. He says that according to a slew of separatist publications, between January and June 2003, Islamic groups recruited over 7,000 young boys aged between 18 and 25.

``Some of the largest separatist outfits - Lashkar-e-Taiba (LeT) and Jaish-e-Mohammad (JeM) - claim to have recruited more than 3,350 and 2,235 boys respectively during this period,`` says the official.

Jihadi groups are finding the Pakistani environment particularly receptive after the US-led attacks on Afghanistan (news - web sites) and Iraq. They use publications, web sites, local prayer leaders, cassettes, CDs, and souvenirs like file covers, badges, T-shirts and so on to lure recruits.

Millions of pamphlets featuring ballads, speeches, interviews and profiles of young jihadis are distributed free by these organizations.

For his part, Pakistan Interior Minister, Syed Faisal Saleh Hayat, maintains, ``The government is monitoring the activities of these jihadi groups and will take stern action if it got any proof or substantial evidence. But we cannot proceed against them without any evidence. The government also can`t ban them unless they are really involved in anti-state activities.``

Adds a senior Interior Ministry official, ``We simply cannot penalize people for donating their children for jihad or stop boys from joining the jihadi outfits, as all this takes place secretly. There is no official patronage.``

Officials say young men are eager to become Islam`s foot soldiers and fight for separatist groups in the world`s hottest trouble spots such as Kashmir (news - web sites) and Afghanistan.

``The young jihadis come from poor and middle-class families. When they fail to find jobs, they join jihadi outfits that provide them food and shelter and promise them paradise, which is attainable only to those who die for Allah, fighting non-believers. Thus our frustrated boys are misled and trapped,`` says columnist Gulzar Ahmad.

Significantly, as the member of a prominent separatist group remarks, ``The vast majority of boys who join the radical Islamists consist of runaways.`` He says sixty percent of them are high school dropouts.

``People`s passions are stirred when the jihadis are presented as heroes of Islam,`` says psychologist Dr Minhas.

With the Americans in the neighborhood, Islamists are having a field day. ``The US bombing of Afghanistan and Iraq is an attack on the Muslim fraternity. You will go to hell if you do not wage jihad against the US,`` thundered LeT chief Hafiz Mohammad Saeed in a recent public speech.

``Send your boys to us. We will train them and send them to Kashmir for jihad,`` invokes a message by Saeed in a CD.

In his Friday sermon at the Al-Raza mosque in the north Pakistan town of Rawalpindi, prayer leader Maulana Yousaf exhorts the assembly to ``Contact me if you want to donate your sons for Kashmir jihad.`` He boasts, ``My speeches have motivated hundreds of people to donate their sons. I have raised an army of 300 holy warriors within four months.``

Such impassioned speeches have the desired effect. Take the case of laborer Ahsan Mehmood, a father of eight, who gave two of his sons to jihad last month. ``It is better for them to die for a cause and embrace martyrdom before I kill them due to hunger,`` is how he justifies his decision.

Prayer leaders and schoolteachers are jihad`s local PR agents. Says Karim Khan, a vegetable seller from Gujranwala in the northern Punjab province, ``My 18-year-old son joined the LeT because he was influenced by his teacher`s lectures. He would tell the boys that the real world (news - Y! TV) was in paradise, which a Muslim could achieve only through martyrdom, to be secured by fighting in Kashmir.

Khan`s son played his part to the hilt. Last month, he was one of eight youngsters shot dead in Indian administered Kashmir.

That`s the kind of fate awaiting many Pakistani separatists - whether they are fighting the Americans in Afghanistan or the Indians in Kashmir. The LeT web site, for instance, says around 800 youngsters were killed fighting the Indian Army last year.

The head of the Society for Protection of Children`s Rights, Anis Jillani, says seminaries are the real constituencies of the fundamentalists. ``A large number of boys who join jihadi outfits come from the most impoverished backgrounds. They join seminaries at a tender age and are taught in the orthodox style,`` he says.

Of course, not all parents see the world in the stark, apocalyptic terms of the jihadi. Complains Maula Bux, whose son, Kalim, was killed in Kashmir in March, ``The jihadi outfits chase young boys and brainwash them.``

The recruiters tell innocent boys they will go straight to paradise if they join jihad in Kashmir. ``Young boys are swayed by this deceptive talk and desert their parents. That`s what they did to my son,`` laments Bux.

``The militants compare martyrs with Osama bin Laden (news - web sites). This tempted my son Imran, 23, to become a jihadi. He had failed to find a job, so to become famous he became a jihadi. He died in June, fighting the Indian Army in Kashmir,`` cries Sakina, 40 from Muridke in the northern Punjab province.

Though the Pakistan government has banned jihadi outfits like the LeT, JeM, Al-Badr, Harkat-ul Mujahideen and so on, they have re-surfaced under new names.

Saeed says his LeT is banned in other parts of Pakistan except Pakistan-administered Kashmir where it has a free run. Similarly, JeM chief Maulana Azhar Masood has publicly declared that Jaish is under no restrictions as long as it operates within Pakistan-administered Kashmir.

Although the government denies such recruitment, jihadi outfits have reportedly set up offices in residential areas of Pakistan cities, from where they approach the public.

``Recruitment takes place under the government`s patronage. It is the same old wine in a new bottle. The same jihadi leaders are heading the same banned jihadi outfits under new names. The government is trying to fool the public and the Americans by pretending to have distanced itself from the jihadis,`` alleges senior journalist M. Ziauddin.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#213 Posted by SameerJB on July 22, 2003 9:52:00 pm
Allow me to post a very thought provoking and related to th topic feature from yesterday`s edition of Dawn. Of course, it will by rejected by the Musharraf supporters as conspiracy throies.

Military, mullah and mohajir

By Shamim-ur-Rahman

The strange marriage of convenience between the military, mullah and the mohajir movement is troubling liberal political forces. They wonder as to how long the military, led by Gen Pervez Musharraf, will be able to ride the chariot of power driven by two clashing forces such as the Muttahida Majlis-i- Amal and the Muttahida Qaumi Movement.

Some political circles believe that Gen Musharraf, after his American visit, has decided to ``tolerate`` the mullahs in the NWFP and elsewhere in recognition of their ``manipulated anti-Musharraf shows``, provided they don`t challenge his authority and help him in acquiring legitimacy through parliament.

The PML-Q and the MMA together can easily provide a parliamentary cover for Gen Musharraf to remain president and also pass an agreed draft of the LFO with a two-thirds majority.

The MMA was earlier saying it was ready to accept Gen Musharraf as president if he laid down his uniform. This was against the position taken by the PPP and the PML-N on the issue. Now the MMA has modified its position to suggest that even a date for the president to give up his COAS post will be acceptable, and indicated that the date too is negotiable.

Observers believe that the unexpected turn in Pakistan- Afghanistan relations, particularly some of the statements made by President Karzai, despite Gen Musharraf`s U-turn vis-a-vis Taliban, has prompted the Establishment here to activate a policy of live and let live with the MMA. Elements that were instrumental in helping the MMA to put its act together want the religious lobby to acquire a new look as a tolerant and forward-looking group. Perhaps Maulana Fazlur Rahman`s visit to India is also part of that image-building exercise. Perhaps, the Establishment needs the MMA`s support to implement what Gen Musharraf has promised President Bush at Camp David vis-a-vis Kashmir, Israel and the region.

The regime`s political expediency is evident from the fact that on the one hand it is dealing with the mullahs while at the same time it is sharing power with the MQM both at the centre and in Sindh despite the fact that the latter is opposed to Gen Musharraf`s local government system and is raising confederal slogans on provincial autonomy and opposing the Greater Thal Canal Project.

Some analysts are of the view that once the regime gets the MMA`s support on the LFO, it will no longer need the MQM, which they say will be dumped at the centre as well as in Sindh. But given the MMA`s reluctance to be openly identified with the general`s regime, it is hard to conceive that he would show the door to the MQM so soon.

It is strange that Gen Musharraf, who wishes to be described as a liberal, has allowed the MMA to form the government in the NWFP but made every effort to deny that right to the PPP in Sindh. The MMA is also part of the PML-Q led coalition in Balochistan, and, of course, Prof Ghafoor Ahmad won his Senate seat on the strength of PML-Q votes.

Choudhry Shujaat Hussain has always been calling publicly for an alliance with the MMA. These overtures have never been publicly rejected by the MMA, and newspaper reports had even given the names of prospective MMA ministers. This was denied by the MMA.

One tends to agree with those who believe that the MMA is the product of the Establishment. Otherwise, why was the Shariat bill presented in the NWFP assembly when a similar act already existed? Why did the governor sign it if at all it was considered to be an attempt at Talibanization? He could have sent it back to the assembly for reconsideration. Was it only to show the US that there were extreme pressures on Gen Musharraf?

It cannot be denied that the agencies delivered Karachi to the Jamaat when they forced Maulana Noorani to support the main JI candidate against the PPP candidate. In five towns, Maulana Shah Ahmad Noorani`s candidates were contesting jointly with the PPP on joint tickets, MMA candidates were given a free hand during the election while the main opposition PPP was totally blocked, despite being a secular party.

Now the question is as to what could happen to the military- MQM axis. Will they still be a part of the governing coalition when the regime succeeds in enticing the MMA? Will the PPP be allowed to form a government in Sindh? Perhaps not if the radicals in the party remain in control.

Opposition circles believe that as the provincial government is crumbling from within, the only way out is a military overseer as governor, as predicted by Pir Pagara.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#212 Posted by Romair on July 22, 2003 8:54:19 pm
dost-mittar #181: I agree with everything you have stated in this post. Though I am not sure exactly what Nehru`s motivations were. I assume since Gandhi had agreed, thet rest of the Congress would have agreed to a lose federation. If they two countries were to separate, they would then have seperated eventually, with a lot less blood shed, had they been a joint federation first.

#175: Some answers to your questions:

``I asked more than once what happened to non-muslims who were in POK in 1947 and who may not have been so happy if they were allowed to stay``

I don`t know what happened to them. I assume they migrated to India. I will ask my parents and try to find out.

``Why is it that whenever I watch TV reports from POK all I hear is people speaking Panjabi with my parents’ accent while Indian Kashmiris are mostly shown speaking Kashmiri-accented Urdu?``

Pakistani Kashmiris generally speak Punjabi. This is what I speak. You cannot tell the difference between a Pakistani Kashmiri and a Punjabi now. They are so intermixed. Not everyone in Kashmir speaks Kashmiri. Some do and some don`t. I assume most of the Kashmiri speaking Kashmiris are on the Indian side. I have only heard the APHC leadership speak. They are multi-lingual. They speak English, French, Urdu, Punjabi, Kashmiri etc.

``Will the Kashmir economy be better off tied to that of Pakistan than of India? Will Kashmiris have more tourists from Pakistan than from India?``

I don`t know. I think it would be better off with Pakistan, then it currently is with India. But that is for the Kashmiris to decide. If they think they are better off with India, by all means they should go with India. I can say this for a fact, that the Kashmiris on Pakistan definitely think they are better of with Pakistan. Along with economy, freedom is an important thing also. India would have been economically been better off under the British for another 20 years aftrer paritition, much like Hong Kong, but Indians wanted freedom.

``Will Kashmiris have more regional autonomy in Pakistan than in India?``

I think with Pakistan. Definitely. Pakistan`s Kashmir is autonomous. We have our own President and Flag. However, once the Kashmir issue is resolved, nearlly all of us would vote to fully join Pakistan (in practical terms we already have). I think Indian Kashmiris in the Valley would either want independence or join Pakistan Kashmir, which would eventually all join Pakistan. I doubt you will find too many Kashmiris in the Valley who ever wanted to be with India. I have to assume this is why India never holds a plebescit there. What other reason could there be? You need to keep in mind these are the grandchildren of the original Kashmiris who were occuppied. And they still want freedom.

``Will Kashmiris have more freedom to maintain and grow their Kashmiri language and culture in Pakistan than in India?``

I don`t know, since I don`t know how much freedom India has given them in this regard. Pakistani Kashmiris I have met, don`t seem too pushed about language. I certainly am not pushed. And as I said, Kashmiris speak different languages. I think eventually all Kashmiris will speak Urdu and Punjabi, willingly. Like I do.

``Will they have access to better educational institutes in Pakistan than in India?``

It is hard for me to answer these compartive questions, since I don`t know exactly what they have access to in India. In Pakistan, Kashmiris have a lot of affirmative action. I could have gone to any univerisity in Pakistan I wanted to, with a Kashmiri domicile. Kashmir gets a good deal from Pakistan. Free phone service in Kashmiri villages in many cases etc. Muslims on the whole, seem to have much better access to educational institutions in Pakistan than in India. Nearly all South Asian Muslim IT people I meet are from Pakistan. So I assume access to education for Kashmiri Muslims in India would be even worse, than normal Indian-Muslims. Hence they would have much better access in Pakistan.

``Will they have better job prospects in Pakistani than in Indian companies?``

Yes, for the Muslims. Because Indian Muslims seem to have missed the boat in the Indian economy. And Indian Kashmiris more so. I cannot say this for Hindu and Bhuddhist Kashmiris though. Those is Ladakh and Jammu may be better off with India. That is why I think most of that area woudl vote to stay with India.

``Will Kashmiris have more democratic freedoms in Pakistan than in India?``

Yes, definitely. I have the same democratic freedoms as any Pakistani. Infact more so. I have access to Kashmiri and Pakistani systems. In India, the whole freedom movement seems to have started off due to rigged elections in late 80s.

``Will the non-sunni Kashmiris (dogras, sikhs, buddhists, shias) have greater religious freedom in Pakistan than in India?``

For Shia Muslims Yes. For other, No. Definitely not. Non-Muslims, including Bhuddhists, Christians etc. will have more religious freedom in India.

``Will Kashmiris get more respect abroad with Pakistani than with Indian passports?``

Outside Pakistan, it is hard to say which passport has more clout, Indian or Pakistani. I have never done a survey. Probably, in Middle East with Pakistani passport. In countries like USA, Europe with Indian - specially after Sep 11.

``If the answer to all these questions is in the negative, then the question arises, why do some Kashmiris want to leave India? Isn’t it because those who want to do so do not want to live in a Kaafiristaan? If so, why not call it the movement for what it is - A Jihad of Dar-ul-Islam against Dar-ul-Harb? Why dignify it as a freedom struggle? ``

The answer to most questions is not negative. However to get a more accurate idea, you will have to ask them. I don` think it is, ``some,`` who want to leave India. It is, ``most.`` If it was, ``some,`` India would have officially asked for their opinion long ago, and gotten a vote in its favor. Which is where the whole problem starts. Maybe they want to leave, because everyone in India tries to become their spokesperson, and does not allow them to speak for themselves. Let them speak their mind through a vote, and you will find out.

There are a couple of things you should consider: Pakistan Kashmir is easily, by a huge margin, the most non-violent part of Pakistan. Perhaps of all of South Asia. You will never hear of any rape, violence etc. coming out of there. Only rencetly Shia-Sunni trouble has started in Nothern Areas, but other than that it is a nunnery compared to the rest of Pakistan. A Deputy Commissioner in Kashmir once told me that one could fit all the criminals in Kashmir in one jail in Rawalpindi. I have myself driven through there, and left my car open. I couldn`t imagine doing that in Karachi or Lahore.

Also, Kashmiris get a great deal from Pakistan. There are no major high class universities in Pakistan Kashmir. It mostly has colleges. Yet you will find Kashmiris fully integrated into Pakistan, at all levels. They are doctors, generals, scholars etc. NS is ethnically Kashmiri (I think) and was PM. This is all due to access to Pakistani institutions. Additionally, my village in Kashmir is the most advanced village I have ever seen in Pakistan. It has women who are now going into civil services. And there is a women`s college being built at the village level. Pakistani Kashmiris form one of the largest ex-pat Pakistani groups, and have sent back a lot of money home to Kashmir.

In short, Pakistani Kashmiris are very pro-Pakistan. Obviously, they must be seeing something good in Pakistan economically.

Right across the LOC, in Indian Kashmir, the situation is reverse. Indian Kashmir is easily the most violent part of India, of South Asia, and perhaps of the rest of the world. Jails are full and overflowing. It has the highest ratio of soldier per sq. ft. in the world. I don`t know of a single Pakistani Kashmiri who has been tortured, raped etc. Yet international journalist after journalist who can sneak into Indian Kashmir reports horror stories of torture, rape, killings by Indian security forces. Obviously this is why HR organizations are banned there. Not a single Pakistani Kashmiri gets killed by a Pakistani soldier. Yet tens of thousands, according to ABC, BBC, HR, AI, etc. in Indian Kashmir have been killed by Indian soldiers. Pakistani Kashmir is not under Martial Law even when the rest of Pakistan has been under Martial Law. Yet Indian Kashmir is under a constant curfew and military control, even though rest of India is never under Martial Law. Human Rights organizations are literally dragged into Pakistan Kashmir, even when they don`t want to go there. While Indian Kashmir is one of the few remaining areas in the world where they are banned (they have not been banned in Palestine by Israelis). etc. etc.

Based on all of this, I am sure when an Indian Kashmiri looks across the LOC, he sees his
cousins living pretty well. Had my parents not migrated from Srinagar to Muzzafarabad, the chances of my being in Silicon Valley would be lower than the chances of my being in an Indian jail. So you must agree that there is more to it than dar-u--harb and dar-ul-islam.

But, just to give you the benefit of the doubt, the best thing to do is to ask the Kashmiris themselves. If they support the Indian argument, then they will themselves decide to join India, in which case there will be no argument that can be presented from the Pakistan side. I certainly would accept their decision happily, as would most Pakistanis. It is this refusal of India to ask them, while simultaneously trying to, ``speak up`` for them, which is creating the problem.

I hope I have answered your questions directly to your satisfaction.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#211 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 6:59:26 pm
re: #201 by ahmadzai

``Still, we know who is pulling the strings..``
The ``pulling the strings`` as you call it is an important aspect of parliamentary democracy. Elected governments in the State are answerable to the center with regards to policies involving security and interest of the nation. State govts can be dismissed by center if the policies are not viewed as being in national interest.
Still, Mufti`s govt is doing a good job, despite what Paki newspaper says:
http://www.jammu-kashmir.com/archives/archives2003/kashmir20030124a.html

``The PDP-led Government’s achievement in providing better power supply, generating accountability in Government offices, reviving institutions of the executive after 13 years and infusing a sense of empowerment among the common people— particularly in Kashmir valley—has been widely appreciated. Consequently, the 13-year-long administrative vacuum is diminishing fast and overwhelming majority of the people is identifying itself with the new Government. As this situation is likely to reduce the level of alienation and a remarkable number of militants have already laid down arms, guerrilla outfits have begun to show signs of nervousness.``
This is from a local daily written by a Kashmiri muslim. PDP must be doing something good since Hizb is pissed off! And, as the last sentence of the para i have pasted says, some guerilla outfits, including Hizb are nervous. Methinks, even the Pakis are nervous.

Efforts to develop J and k are continuing apace and many new projects like a Railway line or a superhighway or on the anvil:http://www.meadev.nic.in/news/clippings/20030403/hin.htm
Here is Asghar Ali Engineer`s take on the new situation in Kashmir:http://ecumene.org/IIS/csss92.htm
But, as the recent attacks on the Army and pilgrims show, terrorism continues unabated. We Indians know who is pulling the strings in each of these acts of terrorism.
Sridhar




reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#210 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 6:40:42 pm
re:#203 by arjun_m
I am only amused at people like Romair, Ahmedzai who keep pointing towards some deficiencies in Indian secularism while living in an Islamic country (or hailing from it) themselves. It would be funny if it were not so tragic.
Sridhar
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#209 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 6:40:42 pm
re:#207 by sri
There is only one thing that the Paki army brigade and the terrorist vermins understand. That is brute force. Crudely put, it is called ``gand me danda``.
Sridhar
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#208 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 6:40:42 pm
re: human right violations
Yes, i know what Romair meant. But he also failed to point out to these:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/pakistan/

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1995/Pakistan.htm

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/pakistan/http://www.rediff.com/us/2003/apr/01pak.htm
Sridhar

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#207 Posted by sri on July 22, 2003 2:25:13 pm

Stuka #200 :

`` India`s Kashmir military chief injured, brigadier killed in attack ``

and a day before hindu pilgrims were murdered by the most lovable puppy dog ``freedom fighters`` of pakis also known as ``terrorists`` by the rest of world.

When sh!t like this happens everyday, pakis wonder why India doesn`t negotiate with their puppy dogs. Tell you what pakis, go tell your prophet..... you are not getting an inch of Kashmir.

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#206 Posted by bbabu on July 22, 2003 1:20:01 pm
ahmadzai #202

Fundamentalist involves a return to the past especially in social and cultural mores. The BJP has not espoused any such laws.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#205 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
#190 by rsridhar

``Kashmiris seem to like their now C.M. Mufti Sayeed is not only popular but he is also doing a good job during a difficult time.``

Still, we know who is pulling the strings:

http://www.dawn.com/2003/05/18/op.htm

It reads:

``So far there is little sign that India`s government is taking the former course. Chief Minister Mufti Sayeed recently outlined a common minimum programme (CMP) to restore Kashmiri confidence and bring peace to the valley. It includes release of uncharged detainees, investigation of custodial deaths and other abuses, and disbandment of the notorious Special Operations Group (SOG). But by January pressure from New Delhi had forced the PDP-Congress government to abandon investigation of abuses by the SOG. Its decision to release political prisoners was condemned by BJP politicians as a `soft policy towards terrorists`. Should this kind of obstructionism persist from New Delhi, Mufti Saeed`s CMP will turn out to be a damp squid. ``

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#204 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
dost-mittar, rsridhar and bbabu,

Perhaps Romair was referring to Sangh Parivar, of which BJP is a part. Please check out the following site for information:

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2002/india/India0402-05.htm

If you do not view this parivar as extremist, fundamentalist alien to Hinduism (a religion of peace and a great Way of Life) family then what else will make you view it as such?
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#203 Posted by arjun_m on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#202 Posted by arjun_m on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#201 Posted by arjun_m on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#200 Posted by bbabu on July 22, 2003 8:27:22 am
ahmadzai #192

`` 1. A well coordinated and managed campaign that ensured that their supporters register themselves for voting, get out and vote on the day of the elections. ``Moderates on the other hand were busy watching TV``.``

I wonder where the co-ordination came from

`` 4. Actions of the Coalition in Afghanistan that totally marginalized Pashtoons there.``

You mean Pashtoons cannot go around killing Hazaras and Tajiks.

`` The Indians and some Pakistanis (?) have suggested that absence of Nawaz and BB attributed to the success of Islamists. I do not agree with that. Even BB and Nawaz would not have mattered much in the constituencies where the MMA won.``

If that is the case allow NS and BB to return and fight the MMA on a level playing field. What is this gutter crap about madrassah being equivalent to an university degree ?

Explain the logic of Sunni and Shite extremists being under the same umbrella when they go around killing each other.

MMA was created by Mushy to increase his leverage with the West. Of course Uncle Sam leaked the North Korea connection as a nice warning shot.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#199 Posted by bbabu on July 22, 2003 8:27:22 am
rsridhar #197

One can argue if the BJP is communalist, facist, reactionary etc. But they are definitely not fundamentalist.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#198 Posted by stuka on July 22, 2003 8:27:22 am
India`s Kashmir military chief injured, brigadier killed in attack

(Updated at 1945 PST)

NEW DELHI: India`s army commander for Kashmir and another general were injured and a brigadier was killed in an attack Tuesday by Mujahideen in a military garrison, a defence ministry spokesman here said.



Lieutenant General Hari Prasad and Lieutenant General T. P. S. Brar received shrapnel injuries in the attack and Brigadier V.K. Govil of the 16th Corps died, spokesman P.K. Bandhopadhya said.


Prasad was appointed on June 1 as General Officer Commander-in-Chief of the Indian army`s crucial Northern Command, which is responsible for the security of Indian Kashmir and other territory in the region.



The official said the three top top-ranking officers were visiting the garrison where Mujahideen Tuesday staged the daring attack that left dead at least eight army personnel, including Govil and the two raiders.

``Govil was wounded very badly in the attack and succumbed before he could be medically revived,`` a senior defence minister source said, describing as ``stunning`` the attack on the three high-profile officers.

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#197 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 7:33:17 am
re:#188 by dost-mittar
It is difficult for Pakis like Romair to understand that BJP is only a party but it came into prominence due to decline of Congress, which fell victim to its own idea of authoritarianism, pseudo-secularism. BJP sometimes does benefit from riots as it did in Gujarat but it is not a fundamentalist party. If it were, it would not have hesitated to send its army to Iraq. It is still responsive to muslim needs. It is all about votes and muslims in India form a significant vote block. So, during the BJP rule, haj subsidies actually increased. One muslim got elected as a president. And, as you have pointed out, muslim wing of BJP actively recruits muslims to its party.
If muslims want to change BJP, then they should not only influence it from outside (by casting votes) but from inside (by becoming active members of the party). Party`s ideology can be changed if there are enough muslims withing BJP. That is how the system works in a parliamentary democracy.
That is how Indians in USA have been working. Slowly and steadily, they have been becoming politically active by joining the parties, voting, funding their candidates and lobbying. The same idea can be utilised by muslims in India but they first of all need to change their mindset and not view this as Hindu vs muslim struggle.
Sridhar
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#196 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 22, 2003 7:20:24 am
Faisal & Romair:

Although I tend to agree with you on your reasoning for success of Azam Tariq and MMA, there are other important points that Fakhr Zaman, PPP stalwart in Punjab brought while debating elections on Indus TV. He attributed the success of Islamists to:

1. A well coordinated and managed campaign that ensured that their supporters register themselves for voting, get out and vote on the day of the elections. ``Moderates on the other hand were busy watching TV``.

2. The students of Madrissas and religious faculties in our colleges ensured that they cast their votes. ``Our moderate children were busy playing cricket out in the grounds and on roads on the day of the elections``, he said.

3. The failure of the previous `Moderate` Governments.

4. Actions of the Coalition in Afghanistan that totally marginalized Pashtoons there.

A point to note that he did not blame the Government on trying to restrain PPP or PML N.

The Indians and some Pakistanis (?) have suggested that absence of Nawaz and BB attributed to the success of Islamists. I do not agree with that. Even BB and Nawaz would not have mattered much in the constituencies where the MMA won.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#195 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 22, 2003 7:20:24 am
#177 by stuka

``As long as Jehadis do not cross the LOC we have no problem with your raising the Kashmir issue at whatever fora you want.``

While your ``Jihadis`` are better termed as terrorists, we will provide you any kind of guarantee you want subject to the condition that your and our friends the USA/UK/all the world combined provide a guarantee to us average mortals that there will be no more terrorism in the world. At least ask the USA to provide us a guarantee that terrorists will not strike us again in the USA itself.

``If you don`t want trade with India till Kashmir is solved, no problem, we are okay with that as well.``

Its not Pakistanis dying to want to trade with India. Its India who has to do it. India has accorded MFN status to us, not vice versa. Reason is that with the kind of population India has and ambitious arms acquisition program, it has to provide all the incentives to its exporters to export more and more. There are two benefits: (1) When Indian exports hit the foreign markets, these are lower than their cost back home (I can give you a technical calculation how that works if you want and no, anti-dumping duties wont matter). Foreign markets that are unable to compete, close out. So in essence what happens is that Indian industry (and therefore, its employment at home) displaces industries (and attendant employment) in the foreign lands. (2) India gets foreign reserves that it uses to buy military equipment and other necessities. That is why it gives generous export rebates to its exporters and makes aggressive attempts to find export markets.

``Pakistan is an independent country and we respect its soveriegn will to decide whatever ti wants to do as long as it does not include violence in Indian territory.``

Violence in India occupied Kashmir is being done by ``terrorists``, who are uncontrollable throughout the world and now more and more acts of terrorism are being done by Indian military in Kashmir. Read the news and you will find how Kashmiri youths are being killed daily in fake encounters and in custody. Not a single terrorist has been caught and shown on the media as an evidence that Pakistan is behind the terrorism. For example, at least 1 out of 5 attackers on Parliament could have been shot on the legs and wounded for arrest to provide a hard evidence. This was not done.

Continued.

reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#194 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 22, 2003 7:20:24 am
#177 by stuka

Continued from previous post:

``Also, the lying dog Musharaf himself contradicted Pakistan`s stated policy on the LOC. Hhe said that if India crosses the LOC, Pakistan will respond at any point across the international border. Why? If Indian Kashmir is disputed territory, so is Pakistan occupied Kashmir and we have the right to grab as much territory there as possible.``

I agree with you. You have the right to grab as much as you want. The fact is that your extremist fundamentalist Government under wart-hogs and pie dogs like Advani made a very good cause towards this by raising anti-Pakistani frenzy in India, amassing 1 million troops on Pakistani borders, incurring heavy expenditure, mutinies, mismanagement and logistic problems that e.g. led to water shortage at front lines (reported in Indian media), and above all, provided an opportunity to `lying`` Musharraf to make blistering attack on Indian designs in a speech heard by millions across the globe, since the same was covered by all the international media, including CNN and BBC, live.

`` Bbut thanks to your Iislamic thugs, we are starting to figure out this truth...fight we have to..might as well get some gains out of it.

The ``Islamic thugs`` are terrorists. The word `Islamic` should be redundant here, especially for secular Indians espousing the cause of 150-180 million Indian Muslims. The terrorists have every single dirty trick up their sleeves. Some time they pull 9/11 on innocent civilians and some time Gujrat, some time they pull a Bali bomb blast and some time Babri mosque. The point to note is that a war against terrorism has to be fought jointly by all the humans. The term `Terrorism` should not be exploited to score browny points, as is being done by India against Pakistan. Pakistan OTOH had asked India immediately after 9/11`s surge in Indian propganada against Pakistan to have joint patroling at the border to check ``infiltration``.

Concluded.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#193 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 22, 2003 7:20:24 am
#179 by pmishra2

``You are missing the point with folks like ahmadzai. He has no constructive interest in the Sikhs (HOw many sikhs are left in Afghanistan or Pakistan today? Keep in mind that till the 1940`s the whole area was 20% hindu and sikh), the idea is to ``lash`` the indians with the problems and challenges of their democracy``

Seems like our Indian friends are struggling with getting their IQs in positive digits. Let me try to state my position again in `most easiest` of English so that you understand:

Hassan Nassir wrote an article on human right abuses by Musharraf/Gov./Military. I wrote in one post, amongst other things, that Pakistani Punjabis are better off than their Indian cousins. Indian Chowksters attempted to prove me wrong citing economic reasons. I responded giving example of human right abuses against Sikhs.

Now from where did the issue of constructive interest or destructive disinterest pop up?

Btw, why do the Indians get so emotional about conspiracy theories relating to Pakistan or when a weakness of India is pointed out to them? Where are your faculties of reasoning and intelligence? I mean since India has made tremendous gains in I.T., I suggest Indians to make use of Artificial Intelligence to make up for not having the natural one.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#192 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 22, 2003 7:20:24 am
#182 by arjun_m
``Your frustration is showing.``

;-)
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#191 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 7:20:10 am
re:#173 by ahmadzai
I said it is a non-issue because it is. India had to go thr` the trauma of Sikh militancy in the past. There were excesses committed on both sides (Sikh militants and the Punjab police). But the militancy was fought by the sikhs themselves. C.M of Punjab at the time (i am forgetting his name) was himself a sikh. He was assasinated by the militants. Punjab police chief at that time (K.P.S Gill) is a sikh. Eventually, it was the sikhs themselves who controlled and defeated the militancy. This was never between the Hindus and Sikhs. May be in Pak you have been brainwashed into believing it was. Sikhs continue to form an important part of Indian Army and contribute economically to India`s progress.
We know Pak can never be our friend because Pakis tried to take advantage of that situation. It is fresh in our minds, even 20 years later. I know for sure that Pakis are kidding when they say this is all about Kashmir. It is not. The hatred from Paki side is much deeper. It is institutional and ideological hatred that you guys suffer from.
You need to know a little bit about how closely related sikhs and hindus are. I used to have a Punjabi friend during my hostel days in Delhi. He was a hindu with last name as Saluja. His dad was a sikh. One day i wondered how this could be. He explained to me that this was not uncommon. Apparently his grandma did not have any son and prayed that she will make the first son a sikh. So, my hindu friend came to have a Sikh father. Pretty Cool i thought. Hindus and Sikhs share blood relatives. They even share dads and moms. They cannot seperate even if they want to!
So, Punjab militancy was an aberration. It was all about power politics and Indira Gandhi`s (i always call her ``that bitch``) follies. Yes, Harmandir Sahib was desecrated. None other than a P.M apologised to the Sikhs for it. Indira Gandhi paid the price with her life. Gandhi family is still paying the price when it has been ousted out of power (i hope for ever).
But saying that the Golden Temple was destroyed is utter stupidity. It was desecrated but not destroyed. If you do not understand the difference, you need to ask what happened to a temple that used to exist in Ayodhya where a mosque now stands. Now, that temple was destroyed. It does not exist anymore. Get the drift?
Sridhar
P.S: About the economic differences between the 2 Punjabs, i have already posted the relevant articles. I have nothing more to add. The truth is that Indian Punjab, despite going thr` a militancy that destroyed it economically in the 80s, has bounced back and is more prosperous today than the Paki Punjab which inherited the more fertile part of the state in 1947. If you believe in something else, that is your choice. You can either choose to be stupid or pragmatic not both.
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#190 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 7:20:10 am
re:#174 by ahmadzai
Did you not know? The Kashmiris have already decided. In the last assembly election where the electorate braved the bullets to elect a popular govt. If you guys do not think that election counts, that is your problem. We are not here in the business of pleasing the Pakis. Kashmiris seem to like their now C.M. Mufti Sayeed is not only popular but he is also doing a good job during a difficult time.
Now, go back to your old tune which is fast becoming unpopular and irrelevant.
Sridhar
reply to this interact write a new interact add to favorites flag objectionable content
#189 Posted by rsridhar on July 22, 2003 7:20:10 am
re:#137 by sameerJB
India has created some niche areas. One such area is Healthcare. While most Govt hospitals in India are not better than their Pakistani counterparts, India does have some world class medical centers. Patients in the weighting list for cardiac surgery in U.K are coming to such centers in India for surgery. Recently, the case of Pakistani toddler Noor became news all over India. Pakistan obviously does not yet have the kind of medical care needed to do a cardiac surgery on newborn babies and infants and doctors there have been referring such cases to India. It is a lot cheaper than to go to Europe or USA where medical care is astronomical (i am a doctor in USA and i should know).
So, do not say that Pakistanis do not miss anything about India. If Indo-Pak relations were to improve tremendously and visa restrictions eased, you may find young Pakis (especially IT professionals) taking up jobs in Banglore. Economy and opportunities dictates where people go. I would not have come to USA if it was not lucrative for doctors.

I will not comment on the reasons for partition and what not. I am not well versed with the politics of the 30s and 40s and what went on behind the scenes. But i think partition was a good idea. If India were united today, it would be wasting a lot of energy trying to control the jehadis. The bad name that Pak has earned today would have been India`s. India and Pak took 2 divergent paths in 1947, thinking each was right. India boldy went for a ``one person- one vote democracy`` and secularism. Secularism has been a difficult concept but India has by and large done well despite Modis and Togadias spoiling the fun now and then.
India` s institutions have stood the test of time. India`s minorities have continued to repose confidence in its institution of timely elections, legal system and so on.
Bangladesh may be a democracy but its secular credentials are doubtful. Have you not read the systematic ethnic cleansing of its minorities?
If not, go to the following Url and educate yourself:
http://www.satribune.com/archives/feb17_23_03/opinion_bertil.htm
Excerpts:
1. ``Bangladesh has been a fertile ground for bigoted Islamic idealism for a long time. Especially, since 1975 with the assassination of the country`s founding father and altering of the constitution, the Islamic Radicalism has been thrust into the political landscape of the country. With enormous financial help from branded terrorists, outlawed regimes, and proponents of Wahabism such as Saudi Arabia, Libya, Iraq, Iran and other renegade terrorist networks``

2. ``The government not only shamelessly failed to provide the country`s 15 million ethno-religious minorities any protection against these attacks, but also showed its utter indifference to human life by cowardly aiding in the history`s worst savagery. Since then, hundreds of thousands of young girls and women have been abducted and raped, tens of thousands of minority owned homes and businesses have been looted and razed, hundreds of places of worship have been burnt down all across Bangladesh. Women as old as seventy and girls as young seven have not even been spared of their brunt of rape and terror. Abduction of young girls from homes at gunpoint, gang rape, and forced conversions to Islam have been endemic in Bangladesh.``

3. ``It may recall the massacre that took place back in April 1992. The then Prime Minister of the country, Begum Khaleda Zia used her army to systematically murder 600 tribal residents o