Coming to Terms with Kargil

ferozk:
Just a small question. Is MP Bhandara related to Bapsi Sidhwa? Are you?
Thanks.

re: shankar

No problems dikra! Tu sue karaj?

Yeah, I know that Parsis can be the best of soldiers and they can also have bad tastes! One of Musharraf`s commanding officiers in Kakul was a Parsi colonel and one day, he caught Mushy creating a rackus in the cafeteria. The problem was the food; it was bad and Mushy staged a riot demanding better food! He smiled and let Mushy off with a frown!

Hey, Parsi girls are too good looking yaar and the best part is they have no airs about them. Things are changing doc sahib! Parsis in Pakistan are marrying outside the religion and some of them are not even converting. Guess, you missed your chance yaar!

So, Shankar, tell me know how has my home town changed and when I told my mom about your trip, she said it is Bombay and not Mumbai and I was scolded! I never seen Bombay, but from what my mom has told me, it sure is a gem of a city! Next time, give my salaams to Bombay! One of these day, you are going to be the guide old boy, and I hope to see you in Bombay. I was talking to my mom; family history and all that and guess what? I was stunned, when she said that first Muslim president of India, I think his name was Zakir Hassain, something like that, happened to be my dad`s cousin. Your present attorney-general is a distant relative, I am told and so was the old, the real field marshal! :) I even have an Afghan contection. My grandfather was in the construction and he made his money building the presidential palace in Kabul in 1930s. At the time of partition he decided to stay in Lahore, because he thought that Lahore with its Hindu and Sikh population was going to India till Sir Cyril Radcliffe decided otherwise! LOL

Shankar I could easily be an Indian! Take away my nationality and I am right at home on either side of the line. I have an Indian ancestry, Pakistani nationality, educated in Canada and worked in the United States. I do not need a flag; I am an international citizen and like those NGOs, I am a person without borders! :)

Take care my Parsi wanna be native! LOL

Ciao

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#154 by ahmadzai

`` Thanks to Sri for providing the evidence that many Indians on Chowk are struggling to get their IQs in positive numbers. ``


Hmmmm..... let me understand the status of pakitanis in the world now... They are searched by security everywhere they go, they are looked upon with suspicion, their motherland is taken over by jehadi nuts, the world imagines pakiland as home for jehadi nuts ready to blow up westerners, their economy is barely surviving on the begging bowls filled by American masters, on the whole pakis are 100% losers....

Tell me ahmadzai, how is it that loser pakis like you think about more successful people and also Americans ( many pakis on chowk expressed their opinion on Americans as dumb idiots) as having low IQ ?

feroz,
#105

Sorry for the delay.
Shrinking heads can be taxing to one`s time...


{{I was merely refering to the fact that you natives are too sentimental. The problem is that either the natives are hugging each other or they are busy killing one another and there is no middle ground to their idiotocracy.}}

Tell me about it!:)
Here I am after 22yrs in the US...go to Bombay for 2 wks.. & I start talking like a bloomin` native!

Unfortunately, this ``CORE`` issue of Kashmir generates very deep seated sentiments (it seems; both in Indians & Pakis). Sometimes I feel we DESERVE to be incinerated for our idiotocracy..(er except my family & friends in India...ofcourse)...!:)


{{I am totally indifferent towards the natives and their infantile love-hate bi-polar complexes.}}

How BORING can you Paki Bawas be; yaar?!
Indian bawas can be an excitable, emotional & an EXTREMELY mischevious lot!
As 10 yr olds, my buddy Falli & I have smashed many of his grandma`s windows & hide (snickering) behind a car...JUST to hear her scream Bawa-Gujrati INVECTIVES!!

Ah well, Falli was quite philosophical , when I reminded him about it a few wks ago:

``First of all, shankar, thanks a LOT for reciting that story in front of my kids!..there go MY windows!..
Second of all, my dear deceased grandma DESERVED it! I mean...she had some NERVE to punish me all the time...NEVER MIND whether I deserved it or not!...thats not the point!...
No cranky ol` lady should make enemies of her 10 yr old granson...there ought to be laws against that!``

Falli, always the RENEGADE; proudly announced that he`s made a LIVING WILL that his body should be cremated, when he dies...

``My body eaten by frikking vultures?!...
NO WAY!!..
I think we Parsis get kinda crazy with this philanthrophy bit...
Besides...it seems like those buzzards are DYING after eating bawa flesh!..now we got to SPECIALLY breed them; just to EAT us!..
now...whats wrong with this picture?...I ask you?!!``


{{ My philosophy for ruling the natives is simple, old boy.}}

NATIVES...eh?!
Grrrrr...

Gosh! I WANTED to convert to the Parsi religion when I was younger.
But goddamn it!
They dont ALLOW conversions!!!
Man...how snobbish can you be?!...yaar!

EVERY bloody religion GLADLY accepts converts

---

EXCEPT Parsis!
You cant even become a Parsi, if you marry a Parsi!

Man; did I BOMB with Behnaz; a cute med school classmate.. in the good `ol days...

Behnaz: ``shankar, IF I was ever inclined to marry you, & IF we had kids, only THEY..not you...can become Parsi``

shankar: ``Well then, let the RECORD show, I`m dumping you even before I go out with you!``

Behnaz:``Yeah...right!...& I`m just shedding huuuge crocodile tears about that!``

bloomin` bawa bi*ches never ever give you the SATISFACTION of winning an argument!:)

Anyways, Behnaz is a pathologist married to a Sikh colo-rectal surgeon (also a dear friend & classmate). I met them a few wks ago & we had a big, endearing argument about ROTTEN her tastes in men are (much to her chargin of her hubby; ofcourse)!
And the irony is that their 2 sons are sporting turbans!...hahaha!!

But seriously, dikra...

Out of 10 bawas..
8 will be outstanding human beings...
1 will be an absolute genious...
& the remaining 1 will be TOTALLY crazy (usually schizophrenic)...alas, an unfortunate side effect of inbreeding...

India is (& should be) very very indebted to Parsis.
Parsis have played a major role in our independance struggle (though they`ve always had a soft-spot for those British buggers)
They consitute India`s top most scientists, physicians, lawyers...& even soldiers!

Field Marshall Sam Maneckshaw lead India to a decisive victory in the 71 war.
He had the guts to tell Indira Gandhi to not even THINK of involving India`s military in politics.
He was also gracious in his triump...he had great admiration & praise for the Pakistani military.

That STUPID butcher ``Tiger`` Niazi had the audacity to pooh-pooh Maneckshaw, Aurora & the Indian military in his book ``Betrayal in East Pakistan``.

Forgive me for being ``sentimental``:
but thats the difference between an Indian & Pakistani general. ..
That shameless butcher Niazi LOSES a war & then BOASTS ....he dies, unrepentant, in his own bed. Nobody in Pakistan DARES to bring these butchers to trial...

Indian Generals EARN the respect of their people (except; maybe Kashmiri muslims).
Pakistani Generals DEMAND respect from their people!

Cheers
My best to your family too...

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an interesting article from dawn. Perhaps Romair could explain it or put a positive spin on it.

http://www.dawn.com/2003/07/31/op.htm

Political stability & economy




By Sultan Ahmed


Sustained economic progress is not possible in Pakistan with its diverse challenges without political stability based on consent of the people and the backing of major political parties.

Political instability breeds economic uncertainty, and thwarts a sense of direction where difficult choices have to be made. And the billions of dollars we are borrowing from the World Bank, Asian Development Bank, etc., for various major reforms, like the CBR reforms, judicial and police reforms, bureaucratic reforms etc will do go down the drain, while adding to our debt burden, which is already heavy. Ultimately the decaying system can come to a standstill and then collapse, more like the Dominoes. We had already a foretaste of that in 1971 when following the acute civil-military discord we lost East Pakistan.

All these institutions we are trying to reform at a heavy cost are inter-dependent. Success of one depends on the efficacy of another as in the Domino theory. And failure of one may lead to the collapse of others. That is what we saw last week at the Sialkot jail when three of the ten judges, who went visiting the jail, were killed along with five prisoners. Hasty official action resulted in so many deaths.

All that has made the Congressional Research service in the US come up with a Long Term Economic Outlook for Pakistan and pronounce that as ``bleak`` in view of the varied uncertainties - political, diplomatic, economic and Human Development. It begins with Pakistan`s poor national savings rate of 15 to 20 per cent, while 2.4 per cent more persons are entering the job market every year and finding too few jobs.

It talks of the external debt of 53 per cent GDP while the long term economic prospects are clouded by the conflict with India in the short run. And while it talks of the remarkable improvements in its external indicators and the resistance of the textile industry, it refers to its declining economic growth, linked in part ``to the turbulent domestic and regional political environment.`` President Bush may appreciate the strong support of President Musharraf in his campaign against terror but the Congressional research service has a non-political and non-personal approach to the problems of Pakistan.

Of course, our external indicators are very comfortable and are getting better. The foreign exchange reserves will be 11 billion dollars by the end of the month, while the home remittances have risen to 4.5 billion dollars. The current account shows a balance of payments surplus of 4.5 billion, while our balance of trade is steadily improving. And the Karachi Exchange index is doing exceedingly well and sets up one record after another every week.

But the domestic economic situation is far from satisfactory. In fact, the critical Human Development Index on a global scale has gone down to 144 from 138, showing how little we are spending on education, public health and environmental protection.

For want of investment the jobs are fewer and young men are committing suicide while others are taking to crimes. A large number of women are victims of unemployed husbands or fathers. And the grossly understated crimes figures for the first six months of this year in the city have gone up by 6.5 per cent against the figures for the same period last year. The average of the crimes committed comes to only 10.5 per day, which is a low figure which means the people do not report the crimes.

Finance minister Shaukat Aziz says the textile magnates have invested over a billion dollars in the renovation and expansion of their industry and yet not enough number of jobs have been created, while 4 billion new job seekers are entering the job market annually. Clearly, more jobs are needed in their rural and urban areas but since domestic investment is small, foreign investment is not large enough. And the reasons are political, economic, social, etc.

The foreign minister has done well to hold a four-day seminar on ``The Global Economic Challenges - The role of the foreign office`` to which senior ambassadors have been invited along with Pakistani businessmen. The ambassadors had plenty to tell the government to improve the state of affairs at home and to correct policies. They can mirror the feelings in the countries they represent in respect of developments in Pakistan and make the government wiser and less cocksure of itself.

At the seminar foreign secretary Riaz Khokhar and others spoke at length on India-Pakistan relations. India figured conspicuously in the discussions, Mr Khokhar said that India had a billion consumers, but also had a very restrictive import regime which reduced the quantum of imports into India. Mr Munir Akram, who represents Pakistan in the UN, said trading with India on a normal scale will become inevitable when the WTO regulations become fully operational.

The central issue is whether trade with India should be approached on a political basis or on an economic basis and in the global context in this age of globalization? The relations with India, as with other countries, have to be based on reciprocity and Pakistani businessmen will not buy or sell anything from India, or to India, unless that is profitable for them. India too knows that very well. So reciprocity should become the touchstone of our economic relations with India instead of political pre-determinism.

The fact is as President Musharraf himself had earlier said, there is no getting away from India. It is a large and difficult neighbour. in our relations with India it has to be approached that way. And dealt with heftily, while it remains a very tough bargainer.

Our ambassadors and diplomats, particularly in major countries, are to become economic envoys, and very active ones at that. The developed countries had assigned such a role to the ambassadors ten to twenty years ago.

But our ambassadors had a large political role to play, particularly in respect fo promoting the cause of Kashmir and counter-acting Indian efforts in that regard. But now their focus will shift towards an economic role, like attracting investment, foreign assistance, acquiring new technological know-how for the country etc. To enable them do that well large funds will have to be placed at their disposal and they should be made to spend the funds for that purpose and well.

When they raise the issue of foreign investment they will be asked a number of political questions as well, including why the government has not been able to settle down nine months after the general elections. They will be asked about the emergence of the Muttahida Majlis-e-Amal as a result of the unity of orthodox elements and its spreading tentacles because of popular support in some less developed areas.

Pakistan was expected to play a large role in Afghanistan`s reconstruction programme. But that role looks to be in decline. Now it is India and Iran which are in the forefront and playing a big role in the reconstruction. Pakistan has lost, to begin with, a 25 million dollar contract for road-building there. Our relations with Iran become strained on occasions, particularly when there are attacks on Shias and many get killed, as in Quetta recently. There is real economic rivalry between Pakistan and Iran in Afghanistan, with India siding with Iran.

And while we seek greater economic cooperation with Central Asian states in the name of Islam, the Central Asians are wary of the new unity of the fundamentalist elements in Pakistan and their growing activism, as wanting Shariat system in the Frontier province and Balochistan.

We may claim law and order is good in Pakistan or as good as in any other country. But in recent weeks alone, the killing of 46 persons at an Imambargah in Quetta made headlines around the world, and that was the lead-story of Financial times, the investors newspaper.

The killing of three judges and five prisoners in Sialkot last week also made world headlines, highlighting how unpredictable is violence in Pakistan and the rank of the person who could be its victims.The Sui gas main pipelines carrying gas upcountry continue to be attacked from time to time in spite of the presence of over 6,000 Rangers and other members of the law enforcing agencies to protect them. Last Sunday two rockets were fired. Such attacks have been continuing over a period of time and hardly any one gets punished. How safe Gwadar Port will be after it gets completed next year and how protected will be the goods passing from there to Central Asia or coming there from Central Asia, remains a question because of the uncertainty in the region.

In this context some people argue there is nothing wrong with Pakistan. It is no better and no worse than many a successful country. What is wrong is the way it is being presented, marketed or sold abroad. Some professional public relations experts and marketeers assert that what Pakistan needs is smart marketing, throwing light on its strong points, particularly its new external economic achievements and sideline its weaknesses or failings.

Smart marketing can pay dividend for a short time, not always. In this globalized world Pakistan is subject to global exposure. Quite often when an adverse development takes place in the country Pakistanis and foreign investors here ring back to know what is happening. They come to know of the happening first before the Pakistanis do.

For a hundred dollars or less one can get all the information about Pakistan or any other country. In such a context, the product has to be good and its virtues have to be enduring.

We are instead making too many negative headlines, and a half of them come from unexpected quarters. We have hence to put our house in order, beginning with the political system, before blaming the world for misunderstanding us or India for misrepresenting us abroad.

Feroz @ 137:

I tried to leave a message for you yesterday, but the site went down for maintenance and I lost the matter.

This is the best view that one would have loved to hear. Your write-up merits a detailed post from me, but for the moment I would like to say that now we at least know 3 viewpoints. Romair wants a total change through TI to some form of technocratic Government. You want stability that leads to a Presidential form of Government in near to mid-term scenario. I want stability and continuation of the current system (because I think that would enable us to achieve our objective of reaching economic, social and military development).

A challenging part of your post was where you mentioned that we need to redefine our identity in post-1971 scenario. Let us discuss this on a proper forum elsewhere for I would like to know the viewpoints of people of Pakistani origin on our identity. That we need to be an Islamic state is too narrow-minded and approach towards this IMHO.

#145 by rsridhar

``I admire the way you cleverly extrapolated my sentiments about ``perception`` into a larger context involving ``Kashmiri Jehad``.

You took it that way. From my side, it was only an example. No subliminal messages were intended.

``Who says there is no statistical proof? The body counts of terrorists getting killed in the valley is proof enough.``

You are inferring incorrect result from this data. From purely statistical point of view, this data is only a proof of body counts of people killed in the valley by military, para-military and police. The total numbers may include some terrorists (not of Jihadis, because subsequent to the State`s call as per the internationally broadcast speech of President Musharraf, any body now involved in attacks is a terrorist), of Kashmiri freedom fighters and of innocent Kashmiris who are being killed in encounters and in custody. India has not caught a single ``terrorist`` alive to provide hard evidence of their origin. Moreover, only a detailed investigative analysis by a neutral body (a drill-down) will reveal the origin of these killed people. In the absence of that, this will remain a propaganda tactics to create wrong perception.

``Then, there are the ``satellite photos`` of training camps. US officials were not convinced of what Mushy said about ``absence of training camps``. They have locations of these ``jehadi camps`` to the minutest detail.``

What is the source of this information? If it is from newspapers then I doubt the authenticity. However, I will agree with you and say surely Pakistan was told to pack them up. After the above-mentioned speech of President Musharraf, there are no training camps in Kashmir.

``More recently, I read a report that the jehadists are being asked (by who else but ISI) to assemble in 2s and 3s to avoid detection by satellite imagery.``

This news will again depend upon the authenticity of the source of information. Surely, ISI would not have divulged this to the media. Again, no terrorist has been caught alive to have shared this piece of information. Finally, that ISI works independently of the State is again a perception that has been created by propaganda.

#146 by bbabu
``We can argue about this. Karachi is a violent city. There are plenty of Pakistani businessmen who have relocated from Karachi to Lahore. None of the other cities mentioned have a armed militia like the MQM and hordes of Islamic militants. ``

That is what I said. In the absence of any statistical data on say total killings / robberies/ what ever criteria per city par year for the last 5 to 10 years, we can only be able to argue without arriving at any conclusion. For example, I will argue that I personally feel safer in Karachi (any locality any time) than in New York.

``Explain the origin of Ghauri missile. If it is the Nodong missile how did Pakistan pay for it ? Especially when Pakistan was cash strapped.``

This is a conjecture, not a data. Besides, what is the source of information? Remember that now even Bush has agreed that the information on Iraq provided to him by CIA was misleading. However, Bush acted on incorrect information and wrote a new chapter in history that cannot be undone. Similarly, any information could be spread under a concerted effort to malign a country. On how to create whipping boys, read articles by Eric Margolis and M. J. Akbar.

``No one has blamed Iran and Syria for arming Saddam`s remnants. Not yet.``

Start reading the newspapers.

`` The recent attack on the Pakistani embassy in kabul was carried out by a Pushtoon minister.``

If you are referring to Karzai`s brother, then note his weak position. In any case, Karzai is not a popular Pushtoon leader at all. He is a puppet at best and a stooge at worst. Moreover, I will argue that terrorism cannot last long without popular support. And if popular support is there, then it is no terrorism, but freedom struggle or rebellion. By blaming the Talibans for the current uprising in Afghanistan, you will not be addressing the problem. For example, calling Hikmatyaar a Taliban is total stupidity. The issue is marginalization of Pushtoons.

``Please tell us where the Ak-47s used in Kashmir come from !!! ``

Read my response to Sridhar

Thanks to Arjun_m and Sri:

Thanks to arjun_m for copy and paste posts. I had suggested to him that since he has no brains, he should keep copying and pasting. He has heeded my advice.

Thanks to Sri for providing the evidence that many Indians on Chowk are struggling to get their IQs in positive numbers.

bbabu #147

Eventually it is a matter of one`s choice, but at least one Hindu south Indian
(Harimau) seems to disagree with you. I somehow cannot rationalise the
thought of Pakistanis descending on helpless South Indian tourists in Lahore,
for no reason other than they look different.

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plats8 #136

`` I`d think that ``perception`` is the operative word here. A large number of Indians
visit Pakistan on a fairly routine basis, when the politics allows them. How many
cases have been registered of people being harmed ? Don`t you think the Indian
govt`s PR machinery would`ve had a field day with such incidents ? ``

The number of Indians who visit Pakistan are of Punjabi/Sindhi origin or Indian Muslims. There can blend in with the local populace. Except Indian Sikhs. I am not sure South Indians can blend with the local population. I would not advise any South Indian Hindu with no knowledge of Hindi to visit Pakistan unless you are a diplomat, journalist, with a Pakistani friend of significance, part of a larger delegation etc. If you want adventure in life there are numerous other things I can suggest. I say this with no malice to my Pakistani cousins.

ahmadzai #138

`` The western, especially American and British, media these days is projecting an image of Islam and Muslim countries in such a way that people are settling for the perceived value. Kindly notice that the media never backs up its stories giving any statistical data or authentic source of information, two requisites for making its claims genuine. Thus a typical story in NYT will go saying that Karachi is a violent city. But what is the definition of a violent city? Is it killings, dacoities, political unrest, what? If it is killings then is Karachi more violent than Johannesburgh, New York, Gujrat, etc. If it is dacoities, then are Chicago, Washington D.C., Nairobi, Manila, Johannesburg safer? ``

We can argue about this. Karachi is a violent city. There are plenty of Pakistani businessmen who have relocated from Karachi to Lahore. None of the other cities mentioned have a armed militia like the MQM and hordes of Islamic militants.

`` Another typical pattern goes like this: a source in the CIA has disclosed that Pakistan has transferred Nuclear Technology to NK. Now who is this source? If I am an influential journalist, I can produce any source and write a story about India doing the same. ``

Explain the origin of Ghauri missile. If it is the Nodong missile how did Pakistan pay for it ? Especially when Pakistan was cash strapped.

`` However, if you do the trend analysis, you will find out that there is no real value in such articles. For example, all these newspapers contributed stories endorsing that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, etc. With American army`s heavy death toll in Iraq, they have already started blaming Iran and Syria. Similarly, with their failure to address the genuine grievances of Afghan Pushtoons, there is a revolt there. Media is already accusing Talibans regrouping in Pakistan for that. I have been to Afghanistan recently. The truth is that Pushtoons have been marginalized by Northern Alliance. There is no regrouping of Talibans in Pakistan. It simply cannot happen. Another way to project perceived value is when the media prints a story like Afghans have turned against Pakistan. We need to find out the details. A detailed analysis would suggest that its non-Pushtoons, who are against Pakistan. There is no real value in the news, because the non-Pushtoons were never pro-Pakistan to begin with. ``

No one has blamed Iran and Syria for arming Saddam`s remnants. Not yet. The recent attack on the Pakistani embassy in kabul was carried out by a Pushtoon minister.

`` But yes there is real value in Indian posts on Chowk and international media too. This pertains to matter on our economic performance, governance, etc. Reason for real value is availability of statistical data and trends. But then Indians Chowkseters are going for an overkill. All Pakistanis on Chowk already know our dismal performance on these counts and are debating it (Feroz`s 137 refers). The remainder accusations of Indians are perceptions (e.g. involvement of sectarian terrorists in Kashmiri Jihad. This will be hotly debated, because there is no statistical data to prove this.) ``

Please tell us where the Ak-47s used in Kashmir come from !!!

re:#138 by ahmadzai
``The remainder accusations of Indians are perceptions (e.g. involvement of sectarian terrorists in Kashmiri Jihad. This will be hotly debated, because there is no statistical data to prove this``
Dear Sir,
I admire the way you cleverly extrapolated my sentiments about ``perception`` into a larger context involving ``Kashmiri Jehad``.
Who says there is no statistical proof? The body counts of terrorists getting killed in the valley is proof enough. Then, there are the ``satellite photos`` of training camps. US officials were not convinced of what Mushy said about ``absence of training camps``. They have locations of these ``jehadi camps`` to the minutest detail. More recently, i read a report that the jehadists are being asked (by who else but ISI) to assemble in 2s and 3s to avoid detection by satellite imagery.
Sridhar