Coming to Terms with Kargil
Nazar Khan July 26, 2003
#144 Posted by arjun_m on July 30, 2003 10:21:27 am
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#143 Posted by plats8 on July 30, 2003 10:16:45 am
stuka #140
``None, discounting the beating up of Indian diplomats which is usually followed with a Pakistani diplomat being beaten up as well.``
I never have really understood this : is `let`s beat up the Deputy High Commissioner`
an element of state policy in both countries ? Given that this sort of behaviour is appropriate for 3 year olds, I wonder what the thinking in respective foreign offices are.
On a slightly unrelated note, there have been an increasing number of Bengalees on either side of the border who are visiting their pre-partition roots. There exists an active cultural exchange between the two Bengals that is strongly endorsed by both governments - singers/theater groups routinely cross over to perform and a literary exchange (e.g. writing for each others popular magazines) has been in place for many years now. It doesn`t seem like these activities have diluted patriotism on either side, but has certainly humanized the ``other``.
I wonder if such a thing can be achieved in the Punjab - Dost Mittar/SameerJB/anyone ? Perhaps it is there already, and I am unaware....
``None, discounting the beating up of Indian diplomats which is usually followed with a Pakistani diplomat being beaten up as well.``
I never have really understood this : is `let`s beat up the Deputy High Commissioner`
an element of state policy in both countries ? Given that this sort of behaviour is appropriate for 3 year olds, I wonder what the thinking in respective foreign offices are.
On a slightly unrelated note, there have been an increasing number of Bengalees on either side of the border who are visiting their pre-partition roots. There exists an active cultural exchange between the two Bengals that is strongly endorsed by both governments - singers/theater groups routinely cross over to perform and a literary exchange (e.g. writing for each others popular magazines) has been in place for many years now. It doesn`t seem like these activities have diluted patriotism on either side, but has certainly humanized the ``other``.
I wonder if such a thing can be achieved in the Punjab - Dost Mittar/SameerJB/anyone ? Perhaps it is there already, and I am unaware....
#142 Posted by sri on July 30, 2003 9:37:16 am
#138 by ahmadzai -> This post can be summarized in following ways. Denial.... denial.... denial..... denial.... denial...... Sort of like an Ostrich who buries his head in sand and all the bad things will go away OR like a father who condones a criminal son because that`s his son.
Admitting problems is the first step to achieving solutions.... but alas, that`s not meant to happen.
huh!
Admitting problems is the first step to achieving solutions.... but alas, that`s not meant to happen.
huh!
#141 Posted by arjun_m on July 30, 2003 9:09:36 am
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#140 Posted by arjun_m on July 30, 2003 8:41:12 am
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#139 Posted by stuka on July 30, 2003 8:41:12 am
Plats8:
``I`d think that ``perception`` is the operative word here.``
True.
``A large number of Indians visit Pakistan on a fairly routine basis, when the politics allows them. How many cases have been registered of people being harmed ? ``
None, discounting the beating up of Indian diplomats which is usually followed with a Pakistani diplomat being beaten up as well. Not a single Indian on a private visit has been harmed.
Not only do I believe that Sridher`s perception is not based on reality, as an Iindian I believe that his perception too is not uniform across the country. On this board, I, an Indian Punjabi, and Harimau, a South Indian, have expressed differing perceptions.
``I`d think that ``perception`` is the operative word here.``
True.
``A large number of Indians visit Pakistan on a fairly routine basis, when the politics allows them. How many cases have been registered of people being harmed ? ``
None, discounting the beating up of Indian diplomats which is usually followed with a Pakistani diplomat being beaten up as well. Not a single Indian on a private visit has been harmed.
Not only do I believe that Sridher`s perception is not based on reality, as an Iindian I believe that his perception too is not uniform across the country. On this board, I, an Indian Punjabi, and Harimau, a South Indian, have expressed differing perceptions.
#138 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 30, 2003 7:13:52 am
Sridhar (various posts):
Plats8 already referred to perception.
Please recall that when a seller is trying to sell its product, it can do so using real value or perceived value of its product or service. An intelligent consumer however, will always settle for real value.
The western, especially American and British, media these days is projecting an image of Islam and Muslim countries in such a way that people are settling for the perceived value. Kindly notice that the media never backs up its stories giving any statistical data or authentic source of information, two requisites for making its claims genuine. Thus a typical story in NYT will go saying that Karachi is a violent city. But what is the definition of a violent city? Is it killings, dacoities, political unrest, what? If it is killings then is Karachi more violent than Johannesburgh, New York, Gujrat, etc. If it is dacoities, then are Chicago, Washington D.C., Nairobi, Manila, Johannesburg safer?
Another typical pattern goes like this: a source in the CIA has disclosed that Pakistan has transferred Nuclear Technology to NK. Now who is this source? If I am an influential journalist, I can produce any source and write a story about India doing the same.
However, if you do the trend analysis, you will find out that there is no real value in such articles. For example, all these newspapers contributed stories endorsing that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, etc. With American army`s heavy death toll in Iraq, they have already started blaming Iran and Syria. Similarly, with their failure to address the genuine grievances of Afghan Pushtoons, there is a revolt there. Media is already accusing Talibans regrouping in Pakistan for that. I have been to Afghanistan recently. The truth is that Pushtoons have been marginalized by Northern Alliance. There is no regrouping of Talibans in Pakistan. It simply cannot happen. Another way to project perceived value is when the media prints a story like Afghans have turned against Pakistan. We need to find out the details. A detailed analysis would suggest that its non-Pushtoons, who are against Pakistan. There is no real value in the news, because the non-Pushtoons were never pro-Pakistan to begin with.
But yes there is real value in Indian posts on Chowk and international media too. This pertains to matter on our economic performance, governance, etc. Reason for real value is availability of statistical data and trends. But then Indians Chowkseters are going for an overkill. All Pakistanis on Chowk already know our dismal performance on these counts and are debating it (Feroz`s 137 refers). The remainder accusations of Indians are perceptions (e.g. involvement of sectarian terrorists in Kashmiri Jihad. This will be hotly debated, because there is no statistical data to prove this.)
Plats8 already referred to perception.
Please recall that when a seller is trying to sell its product, it can do so using real value or perceived value of its product or service. An intelligent consumer however, will always settle for real value.
The western, especially American and British, media these days is projecting an image of Islam and Muslim countries in such a way that people are settling for the perceived value. Kindly notice that the media never backs up its stories giving any statistical data or authentic source of information, two requisites for making its claims genuine. Thus a typical story in NYT will go saying that Karachi is a violent city. But what is the definition of a violent city? Is it killings, dacoities, political unrest, what? If it is killings then is Karachi more violent than Johannesburgh, New York, Gujrat, etc. If it is dacoities, then are Chicago, Washington D.C., Nairobi, Manila, Johannesburg safer?
Another typical pattern goes like this: a source in the CIA has disclosed that Pakistan has transferred Nuclear Technology to NK. Now who is this source? If I am an influential journalist, I can produce any source and write a story about India doing the same.
However, if you do the trend analysis, you will find out that there is no real value in such articles. For example, all these newspapers contributed stories endorsing that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, etc. With American army`s heavy death toll in Iraq, they have already started blaming Iran and Syria. Similarly, with their failure to address the genuine grievances of Afghan Pushtoons, there is a revolt there. Media is already accusing Talibans regrouping in Pakistan for that. I have been to Afghanistan recently. The truth is that Pushtoons have been marginalized by Northern Alliance. There is no regrouping of Talibans in Pakistan. It simply cannot happen. Another way to project perceived value is when the media prints a story like Afghans have turned against Pakistan. We need to find out the details. A detailed analysis would suggest that its non-Pushtoons, who are against Pakistan. There is no real value in the news, because the non-Pushtoons were never pro-Pakistan to begin with.
But yes there is real value in Indian posts on Chowk and international media too. This pertains to matter on our economic performance, governance, etc. Reason for real value is availability of statistical data and trends. But then Indians Chowkseters are going for an overkill. All Pakistanis on Chowk already know our dismal performance on these counts and are debating it (Feroz`s 137 refers). The remainder accusations of Indians are perceptions (e.g. involvement of sectarian terrorists in Kashmiri Jihad. This will be hotly debated, because there is no statistical data to prove this.)
#137 Posted by ferozk on July 30, 2003 2:28:38 am
re: ahmedzai # 123
First of all, before I answer your question, let me state a few thing quite clearly. One; I believe that the parliamentary form of government in Pakistan was a mistake and historically has been a failure and we, as a nation, should think of discarding it. I think that Pakistan would be better served with a presidential form of government. Secondly, I think that Pakistan is more suited to be governed as an administrative state and what Pakistan needs is solid administration and not experiments with democracy or systems of goverance. I think that Musharraf`s present system post dated 2002 is a failure. It is a failure in the sense that it seeks to combine the two offices of the president and the prime minister and rule Pakistan as dyarchy.
Is Musharraf-PML-Q better for Pakistan despite all the faults? The answer to this question is fragmented and alludes to the different perceptions of the question, which do not lend themselves to an uniformal answer. From the perspective of democracy, I have to say no because personally I hold the truism that there is no viable subsitute for democracy as a political system. From the perspective of good governance, I have mixed opinions because the logic of local bodies government, on a grass roots level, is simple, but in Pakistan we have a local bodies government which are more provincial than they are local.
From the perpective of insitutional politics, what we have in Pakistan is the division of the insitutional paradigm into two equally conflicting interests and those interests are a combination of the bureaucracy and military vis-a-vis the politicans and the politics of ethno-provincialism. The idea of insitutional politics is to proffer a sense of stability to the nation`s politics, because the value of insitutional politics is to formalize dissent and to mandate a mutally agreed upon forum for the transfer of power. Pakistan has not been able to achieve this and the military in Pakistan is nothing more than a bridge, which smoothes the process of transfer of power in Pakistan between political parties in Pakistan.
From the perspective of administrative rule, I would agree that the Musharraf PML-Q government is good and what Pakistan needs is not another pandora`s box of democratic promises, but basic rule of law and order and a clearly defined heirarchy of power. Where does Pakistan go, as far as the future is concerned? Pakistan needs to define a sense of purpose; a sense of purpose, which is noted for its absence of ideological cul-de-sacs. What Pakistan needs is, ideally, politics without the politicans, but that is stating an utopian dream. In reality Pakistan needs to head in a direction where politics are about consensus and not about defeatism.
I feel that the only way for Pakistan to move forward is to devolve into a state of anarchy, because only by moving through a state of anarchy will we, as a nation, be able to evolve a set of paradigms to govern ourselves. Right now, goverance in Pakistan is a badly mixed combination of colonialism and neo-colonialism. This has created an intra state conflict, which is colored with religion fuelling nationalism on the basis of a misquided historic ideological rasion d etre, which is flawed.
What I am suggesting is that Pakistan should revoke the consitution of 1973 and formulate a new consitution, which gives the state a presidential charcter, with a strong federal government and limited provincial rights. Pakistan future`s lies not in a federation of provinces, but in the unitarianism of authority. The first task of this unitarian authority should be to create a the conditions, which empower the population of Pakistan and make democracy, the journey`s final end of this process, possible in Pakistan. Democracy in Pakistan will be a result of a buliding process from the ground up and will not result as a trickle down democracy. What is the way ahead of Pakistan? It is to realize that Pakistan of today is not the Pakistan of 1947; it is a new Pakistan created in 1971 and as long as we adhere to the philosophy of 1947 to rule the Pakistan of post 1971 creation, we will have a flawed vision of where we need to go and will never get there. Pakistan needs to justify itself in the experience of 1971 and not what was the process, which created its namesake in 1947.
Ciao
First of all, before I answer your question, let me state a few thing quite clearly. One; I believe that the parliamentary form of government in Pakistan was a mistake and historically has been a failure and we, as a nation, should think of discarding it. I think that Pakistan would be better served with a presidential form of government. Secondly, I think that Pakistan is more suited to be governed as an administrative state and what Pakistan needs is solid administration and not experiments with democracy or systems of goverance. I think that Musharraf`s present system post dated 2002 is a failure. It is a failure in the sense that it seeks to combine the two offices of the president and the prime minister and rule Pakistan as dyarchy.
Is Musharraf-PML-Q better for Pakistan despite all the faults? The answer to this question is fragmented and alludes to the different perceptions of the question, which do not lend themselves to an uniformal answer. From the perspective of democracy, I have to say no because personally I hold the truism that there is no viable subsitute for democracy as a political system. From the perspective of good governance, I have mixed opinions because the logic of local bodies government, on a grass roots level, is simple, but in Pakistan we have a local bodies government which are more provincial than they are local.
From the perpective of insitutional politics, what we have in Pakistan is the division of the insitutional paradigm into two equally conflicting interests and those interests are a combination of the bureaucracy and military vis-a-vis the politicans and the politics of ethno-provincialism. The idea of insitutional politics is to proffer a sense of stability to the nation`s politics, because the value of insitutional politics is to formalize dissent and to mandate a mutally agreed upon forum for the transfer of power. Pakistan has not been able to achieve this and the military in Pakistan is nothing more than a bridge, which smoothes the process of transfer of power in Pakistan between political parties in Pakistan.
From the perspective of administrative rule, I would agree that the Musharraf PML-Q government is good and what Pakistan needs is not another pandora`s box of democratic promises, but basic rule of law and order and a clearly defined heirarchy of power. Where does Pakistan go, as far as the future is concerned? Pakistan needs to define a sense of purpose; a sense of purpose, which is noted for its absence of ideological cul-de-sacs. What Pakistan needs is, ideally, politics without the politicans, but that is stating an utopian dream. In reality Pakistan needs to head in a direction where politics are about consensus and not about defeatism.
I feel that the only way for Pakistan to move forward is to devolve into a state of anarchy, because only by moving through a state of anarchy will we, as a nation, be able to evolve a set of paradigms to govern ourselves. Right now, goverance in Pakistan is a badly mixed combination of colonialism and neo-colonialism. This has created an intra state conflict, which is colored with religion fuelling nationalism on the basis of a misquided historic ideological rasion d etre, which is flawed.
What I am suggesting is that Pakistan should revoke the consitution of 1973 and formulate a new consitution, which gives the state a presidential charcter, with a strong federal government and limited provincial rights. Pakistan future`s lies not in a federation of provinces, but in the unitarianism of authority. The first task of this unitarian authority should be to create a the conditions, which empower the population of Pakistan and make democracy, the journey`s final end of this process, possible in Pakistan. Democracy in Pakistan will be a result of a buliding process from the ground up and will not result as a trickle down democracy. What is the way ahead of Pakistan? It is to realize that Pakistan of today is not the Pakistan of 1947; it is a new Pakistan created in 1971 and as long as we adhere to the philosophy of 1947 to rule the Pakistan of post 1971 creation, we will have a flawed vision of where we need to go and will never get there. Pakistan needs to justify itself in the experience of 1971 and not what was the process, which created its namesake in 1947.
Ciao
#136 Posted by plats8 on July 29, 2003 11:40:09 pm
rsridhar #134
I`d think that ``perception`` is the operative word here. A large number of Indians
visit Pakistan on a fairly routine basis, when the politics allows them. How many
cases have been registered of people being harmed ? Don`t you think the Indian
govt`s PR machinery would`ve had a field day with such incidents ?
I`d think that ``perception`` is the operative word here. A large number of Indians
visit Pakistan on a fairly routine basis, when the politics allows them. How many
cases have been registered of people being harmed ? Don`t you think the Indian
govt`s PR machinery would`ve had a field day with such incidents ?
#135 Posted by veeresh on July 29, 2003 8:15:56 pm
Hi Saima . . . quote ````Women tend to have 0 opinions about anything and are extremely dependent on their husbands--on average. It seems to me they have usually no curiousity, no opinions and no interesting observations about anything !. What does one talk about? Hindi movies? Clothes...nice suit, saima, is it Indian..? or the food one cooked? Opinions are usually monosyllalbles, `woh movie achi hai` or what is the recipe for this qorma?````
Come on!! This is like any WASP . . .
Come on!! This is like any WASP . . .
#134 Posted by rsridhar on July 29, 2003 6:22:02 pm
#133 by harimau
It is obvious that you and i differ in our perceptions. The fear that i have, if i were to visit Pak, is probably more psychological than real. Am i alone in this? I know there are others who share my fear. I have personally talked to many of them.
Sridhar
It is obvious that you and i differ in our perceptions. The fear that i have, if i were to visit Pak, is probably more psychological than real. Am i alone in this? I know there are others who share my fear. I have personally talked to many of them.
Sridhar
#133 Posted by harimau on July 29, 2003 5:17:43 pm
Ref rsridhar #127
[Now be honest Harimau and tell me this. Would you not be bothered about the security in Pak? Would it not cross your mind if you will be safe there or not?]
Two months after the bombing in Bali that killed nearly 200 foreigners, I was in Bali. Experienced no problem at all.
How do you expect a deranged Pakistani to identify me as an Indian? The possibility exists that I may be caught in a random bombing but those are not frequent in Pakistan. And I probably will not be visiting an Imambargah or a working mosque on Friday so that should rule out most of the chances of getting into danger.
[Now be honest Harimau and tell me this. Would you not be bothered about the security in Pak? Would it not cross your mind if you will be safe there or not?]
Two months after the bombing in Bali that killed nearly 200 foreigners, I was in Bali. Experienced no problem at all.
How do you expect a deranged Pakistani to identify me as an Indian? The possibility exists that I may be caught in a random bombing but those are not frequent in Pakistan. And I probably will not be visiting an Imambargah or a working mosque on Friday so that should rule out most of the chances of getting into danger.
#132 Posted by arjun_m on July 29, 2003 3:17:19 pm
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#131 Posted by arjun_m on July 29, 2003 2:37:44 pm
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#130 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on July 29, 2003 2:00:06 pm
stuka # 129
Thanks. I would like to but I am going for 3-4 days to Atlanta on these dates. (Abrar is not my favourite - I think Adnan Sami, Javed and Salamat Ali`s son are genuine vocalists)
#129 Posted by rsridhar on July 29, 2003 1:29:16 pm
re:#112 by harimau
Now be honest Harimau and tell me this. Would you not be bothered about the security in Pak? Would it not cross your mind if you will be safe there or not?
Sridhar
Now be honest Harimau and tell me this. Would you not be bothered about the security in Pak? Would it not cross your mind if you will be safe there or not?
Sridhar
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