It’s a Miracle

re: a clarification
In post # 36, i said by mistake i was not a ``physician`` when i meant a ``physicist``. I am indeed a physician but a physicist would probably be in a better shape to comment on how quantum physics is coming eeriely close to the ``wisdom of the sages``.
Sridhar

rsridhar

I found the chapter on miracles (http://www.ananda.org/inspiration/books/ay/1.html#f3) fascinating. After reading this chapter, I have also started reading chapter 1 and shall continue to read the whole book.
This is the kind of material I was looking for.
Thanks


Alka

Ironman:

Your comment about the advertisement, becoming God etc. show that you are uninformed about the elements of Vedic thought. You could use my three submissions to have at least the smattering of understanding.
Sorry, I forgot this in my previous accosting to you!

#34, Ironman:

Your assessment of Vedas is not correct, if you imply their unimportance which you may not be intending, because all of the religious-scriptural books cite them as the source of the essence their teaching.

You need to look upon the Vedas as the source of early human worship. Humanity in its infancy notes the regularity of nature and also its might. Like a child they start desiring the support of nature via their imagined deities. Then as the humanity comes of age it realizes that there is something other than wishing for the beneficence of God(s). The extraordinary sanctity associated the Vedas may have originated from a need to preserve the source of thoughts whence arose the edifice of the knowledge and consequent isolation of the core of mystical experience.

Your observation of the response of even Hindu Pandits to the question regarding the importance of Vedas is not very far off the field. All this notwithstanding the Gayatri Mantra in Rig Veda does indeed epitomize the almost objective quintessence of ALL religious meditation/speculation/analysis.

As far as the comparison with Bible goes, you have to clarify what you mean by it. If by Bible you imply that there should be a legalistic specification then Tulsi Ramayan is not the Bible for Hindus. However, if Bible implies guidance to the right and virtuous living, social justice and a grounding in a religio-mystical environment then the Ramayan is indeed THE Bible to Hindus of today. Mahabharat does not quite reach that level because of two principal reasons. Firstly, it is a story of a family`s disintegration - hence a poor guide for day today living. Secondly, it is in sanskrit hence inaccessible to ninety-nine percent of Hindus. As a matter of fact, popular belief recommends its avoidance because it might engender family trouble by its presence. Only the Gita Chapter is excepted from this misgiving.

Needless to say Gita forms the core of the religious belief but even that remains somewhat abstract and idealistic leaving the practical guidance to Tulsi Ramayan which explicitly tells how humans together and individuals should behave. The story frame work allows easy study and following.

re:#38 by harimau
Thanks for the info.
Sridhar

rsridhar
Thanks for all the information. Will read it soon.
I am constantly looking for answers to life’s mysteries. I don’t mind if these answers come from any religion or philosophy although I know there is plenty of concrete stuff in my own religion that I still haven’t explored.

You said “I am not posting it here as people of other religious beliefs may think of all this as a big non-sense. They are welcome to think what they want. One must have an open mind. “
But I feel you should not feel like that. Aren’t we writing at chowk because it is a place open to all? Otherwise Indians would not be interacting here. Moreover, all religions have their fair share of miracles, I know.
Regards

Alka

Ref rsridhar #33

[BTW, Mallika Sarabhai used to be quite a looker. Perhaps Harimou can tell us about it.]

Stunning looker, even witout any makeup.

[Did you know she is the daughter of Vikram sarabhai, the Space scientist of India (one who started the space program in India)? Talk about talent running in family.]

Her mother Mrinalini is from Kerala. In a curious twist of fate, the Vikram Sarabhai Space Center is located in Kerala!

re: my last post
Alka,
I made a little mistake. Go to the following Url for the book and chapter on line:
http://www.ananda.org/inspiration/books/ay/30.html
Chapter 30 deals with Law of miracles. I am not posting it here as people of other religious beliefs may think of all this as a big non-sense. They are welcome to think what they want. One must have an open mind.
Sridhar

re:#35 by Alka
Actually Alka, if you go to www.crystalclarity.com and to yogananda`s home page, his book ``An autobiography of Yogi`` is on line. Go to the chapter on miracles. In fact i recommend you to read the whole book. It is fascinating.
That energy that you talk about is all around us and within us. We live in an intelligent, thinking universe. That is how it was created. God laid down some basic rules (rule of gravity, karma etc) and the universe evolved thereafter along a predetermined path.
Energy and matter are freely interconvertible. We see that happen when stars are formed or when planets take shape but also in ordinary things around us. All that we consider as material is acually non-material, made up of subatomic particles seperated by empty spaces. It is fascinating how matters take different shapes and forms depending on the arrangement of these subatomic particles. In someway, all of us are intricately connected since we are part of that same universe that was nothing but a void to start with. I am not a physician but perhaps somone else on chowk can elaborate this further. But another fascinating book i read was Tao of physics. I will talk about it in my next post.
Sridhar

Tahmed sahib
You seem to have your head sanely on your shoulders. Hahaha….unlike those ‘fishy’ creatures ‘that eat from national funds’ of Pakistan and fly away. Good comparison.
And you seem to know more about Hinduism than many Hindus. A comparative study of various religions helps in better understanding and hence making this world a tolerant place to live in.

Cipram (#6)
I understand your point of view. There are energies flowing all around us. So, we have to exercise our intuitive powers in order to connect to them. And we can do it in any field.
We have all seen the physical powers being harnessed to their best. Some people tie a rope to a heavy truck and pull it with their mouth. Another person may sleep on ambers of fire or walk barefoot on fire and still smile. Even in yoga we have strangely difficult postures that we can attain with practice. We also have seen child prodigies who know their tables at the age of two.
Now these are quite like miracles but we somehow accept them to be normal. But when it comes to believing in miracles performed by someone who has harnessed his/her mental and psychic powers, a person who communicates with God, or who can predict future events, then we become skeptical.
At the physical level, for example, we humans can’t hear very high decibels of sounds that some other animals like bats even dogs can hear. But that doesn’t’ t mean these sounds are not there. Only we don’t have the power to hear them. So when some human beings exercise their mental powers and attain higher powers, they seem almost magical and miraculous to other fellow beings.


Rsridhar
I will read the book ``An autobiography of a Yogi`` by Swami Yogananda, whenever I can lay my hands on to it.
The theory of conservation of energy (that it can never be created or destroyed, it only changes its form) has been successful in performing many a miracles that have changed our world for the better. Sound to Electrical and then electrical back to sound, aur ho gaya bolney wala jadu ka dibba tayar, I mean telephone.
But, what is this basic ‘pure energy’. Why is it there? How did it come to exist in the first place? There has to be some other power that creates this energy
God. Shakti. Is it? That lives on in nature, in all living beings including human.

Just like cipram (#6) said, miracles are like using your sixth sense ‘to sense a different energy’ ‘to tap in to the larger truth around us’. This tapping can be done at a psychic level by following our hunches, by seeing the hidden energies.
And at a physical level this tapping-in has been done by the scientists, by changing the matter from one from to another, even making it disappear and then making it come back. This physical phenomenon used by the magicians or peers or babas becomes miraculous.
These are jadu-types that we ourselves can make happen.

But we are talking also about those miracles that happen by themselves inside a brinjal. Or when God starts drinking milk. If these are not miracles and if there is a definite scientific logic behind everything in life, then maybe sooner or later we will end up proving that after all there is no God – Hindu or Muslim. Then what are all these chowk people fighting for??

tahmed32,

When the hindu intellectual needs inspiration he/she reaches for the upanishads. These books can said to be the `repository of hindu philosohy and thought`. These are also some of the most boring books written by the hand of man!

Its something like watching an advertisement. You are attracted by the promise (hold your breath)...of Godhood! No, not a seat beside Vishnu, but to become God himself!!!!

Can an insecure, middle-aged man resist this?!

(Compare this to muslim and christian faiths where even in heaven you are still a slave to the whims of some God).


- - - - -

The Ramayana, Mahabharata are simply wonderful stories, infact the best stories ever written. The puranas too.

These are the only things a common hindu could read and take delight in. The Ramayana however could never come under the `hindu bible` category. There`s just some incidental instruction woven into the story.

The Mahabharata could take that place however. The last quarter of the story ( a full 50,000 lines) starting with `Shanti parva` is complete instruction for social and religious life for a hindu...given as a question-answer session between the dying Bhishma and Yudhisthira.


- - - - -

And finally the Vedas. Everybody agrees there`s some `ultimate knowledge` hidden somewhere there, but nobody has found it yet. Most hindus have NEVER read the Vedas (unfortunate, but true).

Mostly they (Vedas) are filled with what can be called `ISO9000 certified c-r-a-p`, with the occasional worldly wisdom and common-sense epithet thrown in. You`ll notice the intellectual hindu types NEVER EVER quote from the vedas.

Ask a pucca-hindu to point out some fantastic piece of wisdom in the Veda and he`ll suddenly remember an important chore or point out some common-sense stuff as lofty wisdom.

You`ll also find many young men who set out to `master the Vedas`, notably brahmins. After 6 months or so, you`ll see them avoiding any mention of the subject!


Hope that answers your question somewhat.

cheers,

re: Miracles
Alka,
You have broached an interesting subject. If you read the spiritual masterpiece (at least many consider it so) ``An autobiography of a Yogi`` by Swami Yogananda, you will find a full chapter on miracles. There is a spiritual explanation to miracles. I urge you to read that book.
Miracles are miracles only in so far as they appear to be so. Even 100 years ago, a flying plane would be considered a miracle. Today it is not. We know the scientific principle behind ``how planes fly``. Similarly, the fax machine, telephone or radio.
The essential nature of material thing is that they are ``non-material``. Almost all the modern inventions are based on that basic premise. A telephone converts a sound wave (energy) into electical wave (another form of energy) at one end and the reverse at the other end. Net result is material ie we are able to talk. None of these inventions would have been possible if scientists had not pierced matter and discovered the truths that lie in the realm of ``pure energy``.
I will have to write another post on this topic and what Yogananda had to say on the Law of Miracles. As science advances more and more, even things that we consider miracles today will become common place.
Sridhar

re:#24 by sameerJB
BTW, Mallika Sarabhai used to be quite a looker. Perhaps Harimou can tell us about it. Did you know she is the daughter of Vikram sarabhai, the Space scientist of India (one who started the space program in India)? Talk about talent running in family.
Sridhar

Inquirer #30 Thanks for responding to my questions. You have certainly made it clear which book one should read (i.e. the Ramayana) in order to understand hinduism as generally understood by hindus today.

#27, tahmed32:
Thanks for the appreciation. I must state at the outset that I am not an expert in the field. I do have interest in the field hence, I have tried to study the field scientifically - I am a scientist - to acquire an objective perspective. You have asked very relevant information and I will try to provide what I understand.

****Is the concept of the Brahman (which is the same in essence as the concept of Allah, as I understand it) also the focus of the Ramayan?****

In an indirect way, yes. I say indirect because Tulsidas recognizes that the path of reaching/realizing Brahman is a difficult one for the uninitiated. The paucity of formal education for the general public in his time was one reason. So he developed and advocated an easier and shortcut way. This is via the name-worship. The name he said epitomized the way is Ram Nam. He believed in the dualistic interpretation of Universe, i.e., he was a monotheist. He has expounded in detail in his Ramcharitmanas (same as Ramayan) the path for doing that, i.e., realizing God.

What does the Ramayan focus on, if not on the Brahman?

While didactically, Ramayan (by the way in Hindi the last a in ``Ramayana`` of sanskrit is omitted but is always understood) teaches God realization, its primary purpose is to guide ordinary people in the virtuous path and improve the quality of life including material welfare. It is due to this reason that it does not have the weird rituals often given importance in Vedas and Puranas etc. It does incorporate, in the Hindu milieu, the experience of Quran Tulsi Das may have had. He was reputed to have deep knowledge of Islam. His view is, however, not legalistic.

****And from your post it seems that the Ramayan (which I assume is the Ramayana) is the ``Bible`` in hinduism today. Is that correct?****

You are correct. During last four hundred years the impact of Tulsi Das has been so extensive and deep that most of the Hindus have forgotten other religious books of Sanatan Dharma. All marginally literate laborers that went to countries in Pacific Ocean islands, Africa and South America carried a volume of Ramcharitmanas with them. The book has also helped concretely in the maintenance of the Hindu identity.

CONSEQUENTLY ALL MUSLIMS NEED TO KNOW THAT THE SANSCRIT BOOKS ARE OF MARGINAL IMPORTANCE IN UNDERSTANDING THE BEHAVIOUR OF HINDUS. IT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL TO NOT HURL THE RIDICULOUS MANTRAS IF A MEANINGFUL DIALOG IS DESIRED.

I guarantee there are enough controversial issues which can be discussed between the Hindus and Muslim without bringing in Ashvamedha Yagya!

As dost-mittar points there are a fair number of god-men and god-women in India and have their fair share of miracles attributed to them.

Part of the problem is defining ``miracle``.

The extreme and unrealistic definition is that of something defying natural law.

The more interesting definition would be something highly improbable but within the bounds of natural law.

calculating probabilities is very tricky, especially after the fact.

But its pretty clear that many of these god-persons are at the far end of the normal distribution on whatever the god-person attribute happens to be. Hence their capacity to inspire and lead believers, perhaps making little miracles along the way.