Carnage and Casuality

Re : Stuka # 105
I am Indian. My grandfather’s younger brother was based in Karachi at the time of partition. He decided to stay there. One of his sons my uncle was a brilliant doctor. He was an FRCS and doing well in England, then one day he packed up and went back to Pakistan to serve ‘his people’. He and his wife both doctors were shot right outside their clinic. For some reason the extremist had something against shia doctors. A few months later another relative was shot while coming home from work, he was a doctor too. After that my relatives just packed up and left Pakistan for good.

Faruk

Ahmadzai:

I just noticed your response. Okay, we are getting closer to at least understanding where we are coming from..

``You asked:
``Fine. I agree that is the only issue. Now how are you going to get it?``

My response:
Your satire aside, I have responded to such questions before. I have always said that we need to wait, but keep raising the issue at each and every platform. ``

Llook, the ``You`` in this case was rhetorical. I wasn`t asking your personal opinion. I meant the Pakistani establishment in a generic sense. Will they restrict themselves to raisng the issue as they did from 1971 TO 1989 or will they continue active support since 1990 onwards of relying on Jehaids.

``The connection of this individual could be there, but you are going for an overkill. ``

Maybe at present Ii am. But if the Jjehad continues, then the virulent form of Jehadis Islam, that is negligible today, will become dominant tomorrow. And fundamentalist Islam will always be sectarian because it is not open to variance.

``1. Simply because few Afghan Mujahideens of yesterday formed Al Qaida and became terrorists later on does not mean that all Mujahideens were wrong.``

Not at all. But again, those Mujahids who fought on basis of ethinicity (Masood) were not linked to Al Qaeda. Those who fought on Islam were. The chances of JKLF being sectarian are zero, but Lashkar e Taiba being sectarian is possible or even probable.

``If there is an Al Badr connection here then this is only 1 example of its kind. The fact is that this is the first example that a sectarian terrorist has come from Al Badr. The sample size is too small to make any scientific analysis and to come up with a conclusion. ``

I disagree. I put forth this example because it was readily available. But in the Ppakistani media itself I have read about earlier reports of connections as well. There are specific ties between specific groups. You can do independent research on this if you like.

Romair:

``The ex-PAF Chief was Shia. As is and was the Interior Minister``

India has had two Muslim presidents and one Mmuslim Chief of Air Staff. That puts paid to your theory of Shias being integrated into Ppakistan more than Muslims in India.


``Sapah-e-Sahaba manifesto is nearly identical to that of BJP``

I did check out the website. . Can you tell me where on the manifesto BJP calls Muslims non Indian? Or any caste non Hindu? You are a firm believer in Goebbels speak I see. Tell a big enough lie and ppeople will believe it.

As far as Kashmir is concerned, why don`t you ask your own Jehaids if they happen to belong to multiple groups at the same time. For example, LeJ AND JeM..or Al Badr and HuA.?

You don`t have to come to Kashmir to ask these questions. The answers are in Pakistan itself.

Faruk:

``This is very personal because three of my relatives were assassinated for being shias. It is amazing how people all over the world can be divided into us and them, does not matter who is us or them. ``

Man, I thought you were Indian. Is there sectarian violence in India as well? Never heard of it before.

Mantolives#102
Thanks for that quote from Khushwant Singh`s book. I don`t recall your quoting this earlier. What I said was based on one of his columns and not the book which, as I said earlier, I have not read.
To be frank, I do not remember what exactly I had said. It would be possible for me to go back to my old chowk posts to find out exactly what I said and to Khushwant Singh`s old columns and dig out the one on which I based my statement. But it`s not worth it. This is your new incarnation. So, let`s not start it by digging out dead bodies.
And please reconsider your decision to leave again. As I said earlier, I think you have matured well. Part of the maturity lies in developing a bit of a thick skin and not getting too emotional when our pet ideas, heroes etc. are attacked, even unfairly. And not leaving the kitchen when it gets hot!
Hope you stay on!

ahmedzai:
Thanks for the thoughful reply.
rgds,
PM

Dost Mittar...

I have no problem with you believing whatever.. that is entirely your own point of view which may or maynot be justifiable... but may I say that you shouldn`t attribute your own views to other writers ? Is that fair...

Direct quote from Khushwant Singh`s Autobiography `Truth Love and a Little Malice`:

``Mr Jinnah had sent word to my father... to persuade me to stay on in Lahore. The indication was clear; he wanted to consider me as Judge of the High Court.... Evidently he had neither wished nor forseen that in Pakistan there would be no place for Non-Muslims. `` (Khushwant Singh, Truth Love and a Little Malice, an autobiography Page 116)

Hopefuly you will recant on your claim that Khushwant Singh agrees with your point of view...

-Manto

Romair,

Just to add to your post:

1) As far as major public figures go we know that Jinnah was a shia, and Benazir Bhutto was a shia... So was Iskandar Mirza, and then Yahya Khan.

2) Shias and Ahmadis hate each other. Since I have both in my family I know of this abundantly.


-Manto

When I was in high-school in Pakistan, the class, one level ahead of me, had made up its mind that it would subtly ex-communicate anyone other than Sunnis in there group. They were all Sunnis, except one, in a group of around sixteen. That was a strange surprise to me, since, while I had seen anti-Ahmedi incidents like this, I had never seen one against Shias. Within our own class, we had quite a few Shias, and never had any issue.

I don`t think Shia-Sunni relations are bad in Pakistan, at the general level. In fact, I would go to the extent of saying they are alright. I suppose, one would have to be Shia to get a better perspective.

There is definitely terrorism against Shias, though. But I think it is from one tiny terrorist organization, located in Jhang, which has come into existence due to certain odd features in feudal politics of Jhang. But, as far as terrorism goes, this organizations has been extremely successful. It has no popular base in Pakistan, amongst Sunnis. You can talk to 100 Sunnis, anywhere in Pakistan, and while many will say things here and there about Shias, I doubt any of them will support Sapah-e-Sahaba.

Sapah-e-Sahaba manifesto is nearly identical to that of BJP. Go to BJP`s site and check it out. and then check out the SSP manifesto. SSP is convinced that Shias are non-Muslims. So through some religious, ``fudging,`` they seem to have ruled that Shias are wajib-ul-qatal, can be killed, for insulting the Prophet or something. Hence any L-e-J member killing Shia actually thinks he is committing a great dead for protecting Islam.

However, this is by no means the mainstream or even the extremist Sunni view in Pakistan. It is only the terrorist view. The current govt. has actually caught some of them. And I think only a handful of L-e-J guys were carrying out most of the killings. I believe Riaz Basra and a few close colleagues have been caught.

Shias are far too well-integrated into Pakistan mainstream to be sidelined. Far more integrated than, say, Bengalis were in Pakistan, or Muslims are in India. So, I don`t think Shias have to fear that. The ex-PAF Chief was Shia. As is and was the Interior Minister. As are many other leading figures. And no mainstream or even right wing religious party considers Shias outsiders.

What Shias do have to fear are tiny groups of terrorists, like L-e-J targeting them. This targeting had stopped, after the arrest of some of its main members. But it has started off again. Though the Al-Qaeda factor maybe involved in it.

I think much of the Sunni-Shia battle being fought in Pakistan, is actually Saudi Arabia and Iran fighting their war in Pakistan, through extremist groups.

It is quite ridiculous to associate the Shia-Sunni violence to Kashmir. I wish all people so, ``worried`` about the deaths of Kashmiris, to the point of becoming the spokespersons of Kashmiris, would take the trouble to ask the Kashmiris themselves who is killing them, and who they consider to be terrorists. Until, they ask them, all this concern about Kashmiris being killed is all opportunistic nonsense. If anyone asks the Kashmiris who is the terrorist in Kashmir, i am quite sure they will say at a minor level, certain out of control religous groups, coming from Pakistan, and overwhelmingly the Indian Army. If anyone doesn`t believe me, then they should have the courage to ask the Kashmiris. If they don`t have such corauge, then I have very little respect for their opinion. Since they have no credibility.

I think if the L-e-J is taken out militarily and the SSP is taken out politically (i.e. end feudal system in Jhang), anti-Shia violence will come to zero. After that, it will be back to the normal non-violent bickering that exists amongst all sects in any religion.

P.S. I have always wondered, since there are some groups who consider Shias to be non-Muslims, what exactly do Shias think of Ahmedis. One would think Shais would be sympathetic towards Ahmedis, since in a much smaller way, Shias face the same situation. Anyone?

#96 by einsteinwallah on July 27, 2003 2:48pm PT
``Some other identity such as language?``

How about just calling ourselves Pakistani (i`m assuming ur Pakistani) or better yet...Human Beings??? I thought that was a very good suggestion by `sac`... people really do need to realize that before they were Muslims and Hindus and Pakistanis and Indians...they were just human...plain and simple.

Re : Article
Patrick must compliment you on raising a very valid issue and putting it really well. This is very personal because three of my relatives were assassinated for being shias. It is amazing how people all over the world can be divided into us and them, does not matter who is us or them.

Regards,

Faruk

[#26 by sac on July 24, 2003 2:36pm PT
All this wahabi and deobandi talk is armchair intellectualism. I bet 99.99% of Pakistanis have no idea what the terms mean. ]

You are making it sound as if quoting from a Pakistani Gallup Poll. This is nothing but Statistical Sophistry. Or, Armchair Statistical Lying-ism. ha ha ha ha. gotcha.

[The Shia-Sunni divide is as much of a problem on the Shia side as it is on the Sunni side. The Shias are not as vocal because they are in a minority. The problem will become less pronounced if the masses learn to think of some other identity first before religion. But that would be a tough sell. ]

Some other identity such as language?

[Links would be welcome from lovers of tft,daily times and other esteemed publications. ]

Agree.

(AP) Pakistan has banned the latest issue of Newsweek`s international edition, saying an article on new interpretations of the Quran, the Islamic equivalent of the Bible, is offensive to Islam.
The information minister said Thursday that customs authorities have been ordered to seize copies of the edition.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/25/world/main565035.shtml

re. Mantolives #89:
I don`t know whose quote that was, but those interested in answers to the question of ``undue`` importance havign being given to masculinity and phalluses as opposed to forms that celebrate the female, might find the first two chapters of Camille Paglia`s Sexual Personae quite fascinating!

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In response to Urstruly:
``By your logic 9/11 should be irrelevant to Americans also and it should have been American government that should be responsible to protect its citizens``

I don’t think 9/11 and the anti-Shia terrorism in Pakistan are really comparable. A key difference, of course, is that Al-Qaeda was not an American-based organization and even if it were, as Patrick pointed out, the American response to it would NOT have been ambivalence, or even worse, unadulterated apathy. Shias being massacred in mosques by indigenous gangs of Sunnis is a domestic problem and is MANAGABLE. 9/11 is “blowback” from a foreign proxy war and a far more complex problem to deal with militarily/geopolitically.

That there are forces which exist who are anti-Pakistan, or at least are willing to pursue their own agenda to the detriment of Pakistan’s well being, should be taken for granted. Plans must be made to counter them. Invoking these forces for the sake of absolving ourselves of responsibility is not an effective way to deal with domestic problems, even IF foreign meddling agitated these problems.

Anyway, it WAS/IS the responsibility of the American administration to protect the people of the United states. They failed. Condi Rice, (whom I think was responsible for homeland security prior to 9/11), should have had her arse fired a long time ago. The entire intelligence apparatus in the States should have been overhauled. Heads should have rolled.

``Keep in mind that these madar chods have been doing 9/11 in almost every country of the world for the past 60 years from south america to korean penninsula......so..``

I understand your grievance, but what are you suggesting? I`m afraid Pakistan does not have the luxury to deal with foreign threats by taking the fight to them. The ONLY way to deal with such problems is to fight them out on home turf. Although I`m not fully convinced that the anti-Shia nonsense is a problem manufactured from abroad, I argue it is nonetheless a problem that Pakistan can easily deal with...if it wanted to.