Carnage and Casuality

PM at # 83:

I agree with you on misunderstanding part, but I also believe that us Pakistanis by nature are peace loving people. We really don`t want to get into any conflicts. Therefore, even though we may have misunderstandings, we will not take up arms to kill each other. Another reason could be that although Sunnis may be a majority, there are many schools of thought within themselves - Deobandees, Barailvis, Ghair-Muqallids (followers of Maulana Maudoodi), Ahle-Hadees and from sufi school of thought.

A good example of our non-violence is that not a single terrorist has been arrested from Pakistani origin despite all out efforts by the West/USA. The much quoted example of Aimal Kaansi is wrong, because that was a murder crime on the issue of professional matters rather than terrorism.

Pakistanis have been arrested on terrorism charges only to squeeze Pakistan on deciding on few matters. This has not worked. All those arrested have been set free later, but after much maligning Pakistan.

On other occasions, Pakistan has been negatively projected e.g. by quoting Mr. Reeves as Pakistani initially. It was later that Pakistani authorities retaliated and corrected the matters to the embarrassment of Western media.

Mantolives:
Regarding (mis)quote from Khushwant Singh`s book, I haven`t read it though I have read his columns. But I do remember that issue. I dont think we will ever be able to resolve it. So, let it stay buried.
I don`t have your addy but know from where to get it if I need to.

``There are structures in this city that celebrate the male form; structures that declare male power. Military structures that shout out their masculinity - that celebrate the phallus. National symbols that kiss the sky in their entire erect splendor. There is no structure for its’ female counterpart. There is no structure that celebrates the vagina or that celebrates women and womanhood. And it saddens me that while these will stay, this one effort at salvaging female space will fade away.``

Yes, there are. A couple of hangars at the Moffett Naval Air Station near Sunnyvale, California.

No, I don`t have a dirty mind. The local newspaper once described them as ``yonic`` in their appearance.

Maybe I should send in a picture!

BTW Did anyone catch the `Rock star and the Mullahs` on PBS?

It shows the conflict between traditional Pakistani Islam (sufism) and the imported Wahabi version ... Salman Ahmed being the sufi rockstar taking on the Mullahs of NWFP... At one point he goes to a Madrassah and sings a Quranic verse to the Guitar and gets into trouble...

I was wondering if anyone saw it ?

ahmedzai #72. Good points raised, though I would have to caution that perhaps one reason there has not been communal riots in Pakistan (apart from the fact, as you state, that on a people to people basis there is no hatred [though lots of misunderstanding]) is the sheer numerical domination of the Sunni/Muslim, which would makes any form of retalliation tantamount ot suicide.
....Then again, people don`t think rationally anyway when driven by the passions of hate or religious fervour, do they?....

re. Mantolives #70:
Very pertinent post that, highlighting why there MUST be separation of Church and state in any country driven so easily by religious passion. Wish there could be some way of actually bringing this about!
But thanks for the well articuated thoughts anyway.

saxena #78:
tsk, tsk... still reading/ after all these years (x2)

re. Urstruly#81:
``_digit: By your logic 9/11 should be irrelevant to Americans also and it should have been American government that should be responsible to protect its citizens Whereas I agree with second part, the first part defies plain common sense.``
Forgive my intrusion, but it is not clear to me how anything in _digit`s original post renders 9/11 irrelevant to Americans. And while the United States govenrment must surely share the responsibility of (not) protecting their citizens (which is what the many congressional hearing and commissions are about), a recognition of this responsibility does not preclude their seeking to bring to justice the perpetrators, or even seek revenge. (That they are going about this in an unduly high-handed manner is not really germaine to the argument here.)

Manto,
Could you really be...?... NO!!...Then again, there was that reference to a book you`ve read throughly...
Welcome back!
When`re you visitng Karachi?

His excellency,

An addition to my post 70 addressed to you:

Iqbalian Concept of spiritual democracy has a direct parallel in the Gandhi`s vision of the same... the original inspiration might be different (Quran vs Gita)...

However we see that while India continues to celebrate Gandhiji as its father of the nation, it is really the chacha of the nation they have followed. Nehruvian secular democracy, not Gandhian spiritual democracy, forms the grundnorm of their nationstate, which is the reason why their state is so successful. Khushwant Singh, while a Gandhi admirer, also holds a similar view... he feels nehruvian secularism is what has made India what it is today. So this `spiritual` democracy business is not unique to Allama Sahib... it has been suggested by many different intellectuals of the subcontinent...

I agree with you that Iqbal was a very fine intellectual... but that was a different age.. an age of giants... imagine Iqbal, tagore, Manto, Faiz, Krishan Chander .... to place one over the other as the greatest intellectual of South Asia is hardly fair...


-Manto

_digit

By your logic 9/11 should be irrelevant to Americans also and it should have been American government that should be responsible to protect its citizens Whereas I agree with second part, the first part defies plain common sense. Keep in mind that these madar chods have been doing 9/11 in almost every country of the world for the past 60 years from south america to korean penninsula......so..

dost mittar,

Thankyou... for welcoming me back..

There is still one unresolved issue between us ... perhaps your inadvertant misquote of a sentence from Khushwant Singh`s book `Truth Love and a little malice`...

Perhaps we can talk about that sometime... if you remember my former incarnation, you might also remember my email addy, and if that is the case, I hope you will contact me through the MSN messenger?

-Manto

New to Chowk. Seems a good site


SameerJB, 31

`Both Pakistan and India are perhaps only two countries where well-known criminals are not only roaming free but also running the governments.`

Beg to differ. Many many more countries have same problem. In my opinion majority of the countries in the world has this problem.

Otherwise, you have put such a potent case (and so eloquently) against organised religion, its very very difficult to refute. We hidoos had Shaivas and Vishnavas fighting tooth and nail for no reason. We have `famous` caste system. In my native language there is a saying `jat kahi jat nahi (castism will not go away)`.

Jesus is followed and loved by catholics and protestants. Both love Jesus, but hate each other (at least used to). Patrick says Muslims too have sects.

May be, we all should embrace Budhism (at least not aware of religious infighting there) !!!

You won`t believe, I have two people working with me who tell me they are muslims. I do not doubt it at all. BUT, all other muslims we work with privately disagree with this.

nazarhayatkhan, 32

In India you can use/specify your religion while getting married and in case divorce. Optional but available.

Also, in case one wants to use reserved quota for education or election, you need to prove your sect (within Hindoos)

Yogiraj Patil

re: patrick

{The church massacres, heinous as they may have been, must corretly be viewed as `retaliatory attacks` for the US`s war on the Taliban (at least in the perverse logic of the perpetrators.) }

...tsk tsk tsk...the dead must be turning in their graves....

Mantolives#70
Welcome back in your new incarnation. Boy, you have matured and wonderfully so. Congratulations!

Mantolives:
I had responded to the same question on the `Hey Ram` board and am reproducing it for your benefit (hope you dont mind PM!):

veeresh#44
``What are your, and other inter-actor`s, views on the implementation of a common civil law regardless of religion, in India?``

I think that the framers of our constitution messed up big time on this issue. They should have implemented a civil code right then. And one should not blame Muslims for this. They were too shocked from the trauma of the partition and did not have the strength then to raise a protest on this issue. In any case, the proceedings of the Constituent Assembly that I have read show that this issue was discussed at length during its proceedings and that the representatives of the minorities actually supported a uniform our civil law. But Nehru (maybe under the influence of Maulana Abdul Kalam Azad) supported separate civil codes, perhaps in a misplaced attempt to provide a sense of security to the Muslims of India. I think he would have encountered less opposition to a uniform code from the Muslims at that time than he would have from the Hindus, whose civil code was revised more drastically.
But that was then. Now, I think this has become an issue of prestige among Muslims. I still believe in a uniform civil code but I also think that a lot of ground has to be prepared among the Muslims by their own progressive elements before it can be implemented without major opposition from the group which would be most affected by the changes.
Incidentally, people usually think of civil code in terms of polygamy and alomony, but it also affects other areas. Back in my civil service days, I realized that Muslim immigrants to Canada had a great difficulty sponsoring their adopted children to Canada. The Canadian High Commission in Delhi would not accept their claim as legitimate as they were not supposed to have adopted children under the Muslim Personal Law.