Carnage and Casuality

His excellency

Don`t u think you are confusing the term `secularism` with `irreligiousity` as per the propaganda of the maulana sahabs ?


Secularism is simply when the state adopts a position of neutrality on the issues of religion. By the way what is this `liberal muslim`. Would like to know that please.

re: #16 by stuka

Thanks for your kind comments. I also feel that your posts are very crisp essentially because you base your arguments on reason, not rhetoric.

As you rightly perceived, I am liberal Muslim, neither an Islamist nor a secularist. I believe religion is an important guiding force because it establishes a moral framework for politics and society. But this guiding force must be understood and embraced by ordinary people instead of being interpreted by Mullahs and imposed on society. God has created Man as a Rational Being and therefore expects Man to use this ability to understand God`s message and embrace it. When an ordinary Muslim (or Hindu) lets the Mullah (or Pandit) become the caretaker of his religion, he is actually ceding his God-given right of Rationality to another man. This is voluntary slavery.

On the other hand, secularism represents a contradiction between individual/unofficial religosity and collective/official abjuration of religion. Every human being needs to believe in something greater than humans.. i.e. a Super-Human entity who is the Inifitely Just, Infinitely Powerful and Infinitely Knowledgable. Religion is a psychological need. As Socrates remarked: If God doesn`t exist, create Him. When a state renounces divine guidance as its guiding principle, it resorts to false religion (``nationalism``) as a source of guidance.

While Buddha, Muhammad, Jesus, Moses, Guru Nanak and Shri Ramchandar taught humanity about sanctity of life, justice, modesty, purity and tolerance... nationalism glorifies genocide, greed, war, deceipt and destruction in the name of national pride.

I am not a nationalist, I am an internationalist. Nationalists strive for peace, prosperity and glory within their states even if it is achieved by humiliating, destroying or bullying other states. Internationalists, on the other hand, believe that peace and human freedoms in one part of the world cannot last long if there is strife and oppression in other parts.

The source of this evil (carnage of shias) lies eslewhere and not in Paksitan. The anti-shia terrorist groups like Sipah-e-sahaba and Laskar-e-jhangwi were created in early `80s by big Satan all over the surrounding countries of Iran to counter the spread of Iranian democratic revolution. These terrorist organizations are financed by CIA. Please keep in mind that americans gave chemical and biological weapons to iraqis to gass Iranians during 10 years of Iran-Iraq war. SSP and LJ are cheaper version of the same tactics.

PM: has written quite a good article, even if it is made up it is close to the truth. I think a time has come that a shia sunni open dialogue must start; the cost to start this dialogue will be extremely higher in terms of more extensive attacks by religious extremists and terrorists on both sides but what you gonna do, they kill you anyway. Why not die trying.

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This is a very interesting statement by the Indian Deputy PM:

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/holnus/01101618.htm


Jinnah`s secular dreams shattered: Advani

Adipu, July 10. (UNI): Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani has said that Pakistan`s founder Mohammed Ali Jinnah`s dream of forming Pakistan as a secular state after partition was shattered by its political and military leaders.

Advani was speaking here yesterday after unveiling the statue of Bhai Pratap, founder member of the Sindhu Re-settlement Corporation installed at the `Sindhu Belo` complex here.

The corporation was formed to rehabilitate Sindhi community members who had migrated to India and had now undertaken the task of beautification of the Adisar Talao (tank) at a cost of Rs one crore.

Advani recalled that in the pre-Independence era, Jinnah had declared that Pakistan would become a secular state to protect the religious and economic freedom of people of all castes and creeds.

That had never happened, even as India, which had not made any such declarations, had adopted secularism.

A nostalgic Deputy Prime Minister said visiting Adipur always reminded him of his childhood because after the partition, his family had initally settled there. Therefore, he considered Adipur as his hometown.

He said that freedom for India and Pakistan had never augured well for refugees of both the countries as it had brought more pain, than happiness for them.

He further described it as a `sad` happening for both Hindus and Muslims.

to be considered democratic, you have to hold free elections once a while. hence no one considered east germany to be democratic even though they called themselves that i.e. german democratic republic or g.d.r. similarly, you should not be considered islamic as long as rulers drive around in mercedese (s class no less) while twelve year old girls act as bread winners for their family. medieval perhaps, shameless certainly but not islamic.

patrick:

this is not to take anything away from your article. in fact, even a jaded cynic like me cannont help but be moved by your example. just hope that there are enough of you around to make a difference.

Ref ahmadzai #25

[Let me repeat my simplest of messages. Over use of terms ``cross-border terrorism`` and ``cross-border infilteration`` tentamount to verbal masterbation. The one and only issue is the right of self-determination of Kashmiris, promised to them by Mounty, Pundit and UN.]

How about ``self-determination for Kashmiris`` raised annually at the UN and in meetings of the OIC, and daily in Pakistani public gatherings? Would that amount to ``verbal intercourse`` as opposed to ``verbal masturbation``, on the basis that Pakistanis do everything better than Indians?

PM: You are talking aboyt the Sipah e Sahaba and the Tehrik e Jafria. Yes, these outfits predate the Kashmir Jehad.

But, at the time sectarion violence had not degenreated into targetted assasinations. Infact the SSP and TJP can be compared to India`s Bajrang Dal of today.

The transformation in to proper militant groups with weapons came later. Ii agree it was not a direct result of the Kashmir Jehad. But it certainly grew to its current stature because the state abdicated fighting its own battles in Kashmir and Afghanistan, leaving it to the Jehadis to fill the vaccum.

You talk of ``networking`` as if these are professional organizations getting together at strategy meeting. That is a load of bull. The same people who are members of JeM also belong to HuA and vice versa.

The example of the Quetta suicide bomber holding multiple allegiances is a prime example.

bat,
Thanks for writing the myth-breaking post.
Here`s one more for you destroy. It was related by Tariq during that fateful conversation, but slipped my mind when writing: Do Shia`s REALLY believe that someone`s goat gobbled up some 16 paras taht had been revelealed to the Holy Prophet?
And, not to sound too flippant here... is what my grandma told me true, about Shia`s kidnapping little children during Muharram to use their blood as gravy with their rice?
But more to the point... How the heck did these myths come about and were/are allowed currency? Anyone?

temp,
Don`t mind #24 at all. `tis public space, after all. And I`m keeping well, thanks.
sac, #26 and nazar, #32, I think you guys have come close to formulating the (first) problem really well.
rgds,
Thanks to all who expressed appreciation.
PM

stuka,
I have no doubts that the various extremist islamist groups are networked in Pakistan. That ain`t exactly rocket science, bro . However, in your original post, #3, you inquired if ``Patrick Masih would like to comment on the Jehadi culture encouraged by succesive Pakistani establishments to fund the war in Kashmir and its corelation to fanaticism at home.``, suggesting, quite plainly that the recent spate of ``religious`` violence is a direct outcome of the Pak Kashmir policiy. If there is any doubt, you continued, ``After all, once the Hindus are killed, the hunters will look for new targets right?``
Now, which part of my #4 didn`t you understand, where I pointed out that sectarian violence predated the Kashmiri jehad by a good four years? Have you still not (since we last exchanged thoughts) taken remedial reading lessons? :)
Of course, if all you intend doing is relating your wet dreams here, as in #16, who am i to deny you those simple pleasures!
Only, I ain`t bitin`, thankyou.

Pakistani ID card has a column that asks ``religion`` - meaning even if you do not have one, get one. And almost all applications for Jobs etc have another column ``religious sect`` = meaning get aligned with some sect. (Many times when I filled in just Muslim, it was not accepted)

This is a completely superfluous and seditious information which further divides the society on basis of religions and religious sects.

I do no think any other country`s ID cards mention religion - much less religious sect.

It is just one of many blunders of our policy makers.

A certain percent of criminals, hatemongers and bigots are found in every society. The problem arises when society either becomes indifferent to their actions or unable to deal with them due to complicity of synergy between various vested interests. In Pakistan, the above statement applies fully as it is applied in Rwanda, Burundi, Liberia, Nigeria and slowly becoming applicable to India as well. When people do not take stand against detrimental tendencies and the vested interests hush-hushed all voices through a well-orchestrated, perfected and standardized technique of a series of statements like, ``RAW agents``, followed by ``we will deal criminals with iron hand`` followed by ``inquiry commission`` followed by ``few arrests`` until the issue is off the screen and front pages of print media. The Balochisan police chief, Shoib Suddle is an old hand dealing with such things as former IGP of Sindh during BB reign and overseeing the murder of Murtaza Bhutto and many sectarian terrorist attacks in Karachi. The day massacre took place, all Quetta police was busy protecting Jamalo who was passing through Quetta. Mutt did not even condole the massacre victims in his Paris news conference and hasn`t visited Quetta yet.

Both Pakistan and India are perhaps only two countries where well-known criminals are not only roaming free but also running the governments. Everybody from Faisal Saleh Hayat to Maulana Azam Tariq all the way to Musharraf have broken laws, some of which punishable by death but being the masters of the systems keeps them safe from poven guilty in the courts. Every chiefminister of Sindh has been a hardened criminal and this time around governor too. Chaudhries of Gujrat are as criminal as Sharifs of Lahore or Bhutto-Zardari couple. It pays to be criminal for all of them and people like Narendra Modi across the border. If they don`t abide by the law, who is going to tell sectarian terrorists to abide by the law. There exists a powerful network of military criminals, political criminals, feudal criminals, pir criminals, economic criminals, social criminals and religious criminals. This is a big Mafia who has taken over Pakistan and all of these groups benefit from this network. Unfortunately our religion has made us impotent regarding every meaningful stand. Only matters that excite public are Ahmedis as minority, blasphemy law, chadar aur char deewari, Kashmir, Palestine, Ummah shummah and other historical garbage put around our necks as garlands. Looking at these priorities, no wonder Heera Mandi looks like Holyland and Playboy seems like Holy scripture - more blessed by god than the mafia which grips Pakistan.

I would have convinced myself that religions were creations of devil/ satan who used god`s name whereas god actually created music, dance, sex, pornography, prostitution,...had I been a believer. How many people have been killed in subcontinent in the name of music, dance, pornography, sex, prostitution etc combined? Less than shia-sunni sectarian killings?

RZaidi:

``What did Shias or Sunnis ever do to you that you have SOOO much hatred towards them? ``

Ordinary ones..nothing at all. I may come across as a bigot in this specific discussion but that is only because I want to steer it in a certain direction. That does not excuse the bigotry which exists everywhere including amongst Hindus. You do not have to justify those with replies.

Ahmadzai:

``The one and only issue is the right of self-determination of Kashmiris, promised to them by Mounty, Pundit and UN. ``

Fine. I agree that is the only issue. Now how are you going to get it?

By raising Jehadi militias who will also kill Shias and fight for the Ummah or through open war between two armies of India and Pakistan?

My point is not the justification of Kashmir. Point is you cannot use Islamic militants to achieve one and not let it affect your society.

You are right about the verbal masturbation. All this being spewed here on Shia Sunni unity is also so much verbal masturbation.

Fact remains you need those Jehadis because your generals know you cannot win Kashmir in open war. If it involves the killing of Shias and the Talibanization of Pakistan and the marginalization of liberal society, so be it. Your establishment does not care and you are too dumb to notice the connection.

By the way, would you like to comment on the Al Badr connection of the suicide bomber of Quetta?

Bat

``- do you guys spit in your food?
No. This was asked of ``niaz`` or food on which we pray fateha(prayer) over. No we donot spit in our food, otherwise how would we eat it? (The Sipahesahaba website has proclaimed that we make our men put their ``stuff`` in it - i have to marvel at their imagination while feeling disgusted at their hatred)

- do men and women perform sexual acts on ashura in the imambarga?
Yes as ridiculous as it sounds, people actually believe this.. i think it stems from the agakhani practice of holding hands when praying certain duas (dont see anything wrong with that) combined with the fact that we switch off all lights on the night of ashura to mourn iman hussain. No we donot do any such thing. I would invite anyone who has the opportunity to please attend one of these majlises and see for themselves that all we do is remember our slain imam and mourn. The lights are switched off because it gives a sense of ``sham-e-garibaan`` eve of the poor which is what we refer to ashura night as.

-didnt you kill imam hussain yourself and are now weeping over it?
No. Yazid had imam hussain and his family killed (please see shianews.com for a detailed account)

-you guys emphasize hazrat ali more than the prophet
No. We believe the prophet was in fact the last prophet but we believe hazrat ali deserved to be the first caliph and his right was usurped. Once again, its a belief - you may not agree with it, but thats no reason to kill people who do. We emphasize the 5 panjitan - The prophet, hazrat ali, bibi fatema(d/o the prophet) and the prophet`s grandsons Imam hassan and Imam hussain. We praise and love and revere the prophet just as sunnis.we have milads too btw

- you pray twice/once a day
No.we have five times just like you guys. see shianews.com for details

-you dont believe in the Koran/you have a different Koran
Nope. Exact same as other muslims. every word is the same.

I would like to point out here that most shias dont agree with hurling abuse on the caliphs, infact i was never told the sunnis were different or the 4 caliphs were negative - i wonder why sunnis are fed so much damaging information about shias.``

Could you clear up another myth, are your Kalima and Namaz any different from the Sunni ones?

From what i read here theres actually not much of a difference then, so i dont understand what all the fuss is about? How much BS is spread in Pak is unreal... God, there really has to be some sort of concerted effort to rid ourselves of these ignorant myths...