Carnage and Casuality

#14 by sri on July 24, 2003 10:18am PT

``Why don`t you Shias and Sunnis just wipe eachother out and rid the world of the morons who think nothing else but their stupid religions 24/7/365. ``

Maybe we will wipe each other out and ``rid the world of the morons`` but we`ll be sure to take bigger morons like you down with us!And maybe we havent done much about the ``Garbage and filth flowing all around our streets, when there are billions of hungry stomachs`` but can you please tell me what YOU and morons like you have done about it??

What`s your problem anyway? What did Shias or Sunnis ever do to you that you have SOOO much hatred towards them?

#20 by ahmadzai on July 24, 2003 12:19pm PT

Thanx for the advice and as much as I`d like to convince the Indians that we need President Musharraf, I dont think its going to be of any help, because our own Pakistani people dont understand the importance of religious and ethnic tolerance. If we cant make our own people understand, how can we even try to convince people from other countries?There our people in Pakistan who want Musharraf out, maybe because of these reasons. Maybe because they`re afraid that if Musharraf sticks around long enough, Pakistan really will be rid of the religious intolerance that plagues the whole Pakistani community.

All this wahabi and deobandi talk is armchair intellectualism. I bet 99.99% of Pakistanis have no idea what the terms mean. The Shia-Sunni divide is as much of a problem on the Shia side as it is on the Sunni side. The Shias are not as vocal because they are in a minority. The problem will become less pronounced if the masses learn to think of some other identity first before religion. But that would be a tough sell.

later
-sac

P.S: Links would be welcome from lovers of tft,daily times and other esteemed publications.

Stuka:

Let me repeat my simplest of messages. Over use of terms ``cross-border terrorism`` and ``cross-border infilteration`` tentamount to verbal masterbation. The one and only issue is the right of self-determination of Kashmiris, promised to them by Mounty, Pundit and UN.

I had advised Indians like you before and I am doing it again. Because you do not have natural intelligence to understand simple messages, try using some thing in which Indians have excelled - Artificial Intelligence ;-)

As regards arjun_m, this friend of mine is born with a slight disadvantage - he has no brains. Good to note that as per my advice, he has returned to doing what he is better at - copying and pasting long passages.

since TFT is so much in vogue today...here is another one from there...since TDT does not archive i will paste the entire article...hope you won`t mind PM

---

The journey of my first legislation

Humaira Awais Shahid’s w e e k

I will never forget the day I received a letter from Noor Sitara (17) and Sameera (8) from Mianwali, two sisters who were being traded in compensation for their brother’s crime of violating a girl from another tribe. The decision was made by a panchayat, or council of elders. Apparently, it made a lot of sense to the panchayat that both Noor Sitara and Sameera be given in vinni to Nazar Din (20) and Amjad Khan (10), members of the “aggrieved” party. According to the letter, the “wedding” was witnessed by the two families, community and the imam who conducted the nikah.

After reading this letter, I consulted my seniors and we decided to investigate. When three members of our investigation team arrived in their village, the imam who had conducted the nikah denied it had ever taken place. Confronted by the disgruntled parents of the girls, he quickly changed his statement and said he had conducted the nikah only on the orders of the panchayat. The members of the panchayat also refused to accept responsibility and said that the parents of both the girls and boys had allowed the wedding of their own free will. When a relative of the girls contradicted them, two members of the panchayat quickly changed their statements, while another two ran off, literally. The remaining members said they had ordered the nikah to avoid a civil case between the two families.

Our team contacted a nearby police station and the station house officer (SHO) sent his messenger to the village folk, informing them that the wedding of minors is a crime. Upon “learning” this, the imam, the panchayat members and the parents of the girls and boys said that no such nikah had taken place. Mysteriously, the records of the nikah kept in the imam’s mosque vanished. The two girls went back to their family. I am told the panchayat sat down again after our investigators had left and negotiated a qisas (monetary compensation) between the two families.

Vinni is a ruthless tribal custom. It means offering the hand of a girl or minor in order to establish a compromise or act as compensation in a criminal case. This custom encourages the trend of using women in trade and barter in compensation of crimes and settlements of family and property disputes. It reduces the status of women to that of a commodity that can be traded in an attempt to evade punishment. The minors traded in vinni are mistreated all their lives, the belief being they should be punished for the crimes their relatives committed. They are the victims of all kinds of subhuman treatment. The panchayat plays a major role in this, as all these decisions are taken and implemented by them. In most cases, panchayats rule in favour of the influential party. Vinni has been used to violate and exploit women in the rural areas for many years. The practice is justified on the grounds that it is a tradition of our culture.

What is the jurisdiction of a panchayat? What legal grounds does a panchayat have to violate the fundamental rights of a human being? Is it not unconstitutional? Does it not contradict our judicial system and philosophy? Isn’t there any system that monitors the practices of a panchayat? Why are women and minors like Noor Sitara and Sameera given in vinni? How long will they have to wait for justice?

The more I probed the issue, the more I realised it needed serious legislation and had to be condemned as a punishable act. In protest against this heinous practice, I, as a member of the Punjab Assembly presented a resolution in the Assembly on February 27 which was passed unanimously. My resolution proposed that all practices of the vinni custom be declared illegal. I also demanded vinni be made a punishable act, with a minimum sentence of five years.

From that day, it took me three more months just to get a private member’s bill drafted. I was aware that my bill would be repeatedly rejected on technical grounds, so it had to be drafted by the provincial law department. Then it was approved by the provincial law minister, which took another three weeks. Now my file rests with the home department, awaiting scrutiny and recommendation to the federal Interior Ministry. Ultimately the bill seeks an amendment to the Pakistan Penal Code, 1860.

Vinni is not purely a provincial matter. Only the federal government has the power to amend the Pakistan Penal Code. Issues like vinni, karokari and marriage with the Quran are indigenous. They need immediate legislation. Unfortunately, they are not under the jurisdiction of the provincial assemblies, though it is evident that such practices can only be controlled if the laws are formulated and implemented at the provincial level.

I am one of the less fortunate MPAs who prefer legislation to transfers and postings. Even with all my convictions and efforts I am doomed by a system tied into knots by red-tape. It encourages a dysfunctional, regressive and resistant culture. With every passing day, I become more convinced that these deadly sins are more worthy of jihad than any other.

Sadly, women legislators are divided into categories: one category is an extension of feudalism, as they are in the assemblies because their fathers, husbands or brothers could not qualify for the elections, given their lack of recognised degrees. They represent the same power structures and are still controlled and dominated by their families and the traditional political system. The second class is the political workers. They are perceived as ambitious, and willing to sacrifice all their values to climb the power ladder. The third category is of working women and women who have some experience in social work. This is considered (by the traditional politicians) the most dangerous category. After all, they may have some dormant potential or may actually want to change something. So all workshops and training for legislative processes were cancelled in case these women realised their potential. Besides, the rules laid out for effective legislation would be so tough and complicated that without the cooperation of the bureaucracy, it would not be possible to function. The will to work exists, but the system devours all positive energy.

Because of my passionate attachment to my cause I will not let this system subordinate the national interest. This may be an isolated effort and it will take a long time before the institutional framework creates room for individualism, autonomy, self-reliance and self-expression. The journey is not some breath taking utopianism but, nevertheless, with all its hurdles, it is worth taking.

Humaira Awais Shahid is a Member of the Punjab Assembly. She represents the National Alliance. She is also Editor (Women Affairs) of Daily Khabrain. Email: humaira@khabrain.com

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This is from The Friday Ttimes: Please read the last Paragraph. Clear connection between Kashmir Jehad and Sectarion violence....

TIP-OFF FROM THE INVESTIGATING teams in Balochistan trying to get to the terrorist group behind the July 4 gruesome sectarian attack in Quetta, the Sindh police is looking for a certain Sanaullah who it claims now heads the Akram Lahori faction of the banned Deobandi-sectarian terrorist organisation, Lashkar-e Jhangvi.

The attack, that killed 53 Hazara Shia and left over 100 injured, is the worst single incident of sectarian violence in Pakistan’s history and came within less than a month of another attack which killed 19 Shia Hazara police recruits.

A 7-member team of investigators from Karachi went to Quetta, the capital-city of Balochistan province, two week ago and returned on July 17. The team is said to have helped the Balochistan police identify the three terrorists killed in the attack on the imambargah.

While initially the Balochistan police chief, Shoaib Suddle, declined to make public the names of the dead attackers, leaks in the press have identified at least two as Khan Mohammad and Noor Ahmed of Mastung district in Balochistan. Noor Ahmed was affiliated with al-Badr, a jihadi group fighting Indian forces in the occupied Kashmir, though apparently he also had links with the banned LJ.

Bat and RZaidi:

Good to see you folks.

Now I would advise you to convince Indians that why Pakistan needs General Pervaiz Musharraf at this point of time to weed out religious intolerance and terrorism from our country. Please recall how his making a bold u-turn ended the attacks on Shias of Kurram Agency (Tribal Area) of Pakistan by Talibans backed so called Sunnis.

Also remind Indians that the terrorist ``Sunni`` parties who had attacked the Imam Bargahs of Karachi in 1983 during Moharram while Shia Muslims were attending Majalis did not participate in Kashmiri Jihad.

And For an average Kashmiri:

``Every day is `Ashura and every land is Kerbala``
Imam Ja`far ibn Muhammad As-Sadiq (A.S.)

Good piece Patrick,
We allow bigotry to celebrate.

Bat:

You left out the explanation for why shias boil babies in large cauldrons. :)

bat#10

....if words can lessen your pain, here is what i wrote on 6th july.


mera saathi mur gaya
kay maut bur haq hai
kaun roye ga tumhari
qabr per lekin bataa
jiss tarah insaan roya
uss kay marqad per
jahan zindon ko zinda
dafn karna bhi ibadat hai

.....khamkhwa
( an ode to the dead in Quetta killing)

Oh and Temporal and his ilk`` I have nothing against Shias. My posts to PM are in relation to a much older argument related to Kashmir.

I will bring up uncomfortable topics on this board only to show how all weaponized Islam is inter-related. Anyone who condemns one and supports the other is a hypocrite, or worse..a fool.

I havent been a member at Chowk for very long, but this article is the best I`ve read so far. I`d also like to thank Patrick for writing this because I think people need to realize that anyone who does anything differently doesnt deserve to be condemned or killed! We cant change everyone`s opinion but this article is definitely a start and I hope we get a lot more of these.

#10 by bat on July 24, 2003 8:22am PT
I completely agree with everything you said in your reply. I`ve been through the exact same things and ppl have asked me the exact same questions. There was a time in my school days when I was actually ashamed of telling ppl I was shia, because then everyone would think I`m a freak who spits in ppls food. We were never told that Sunni`s are wrong or that we shouldnt talk to them or eat what they give us. We were always just taught to follow our religion to the best of our abilities and let everyone else follow theirs. I was harrassed when I was in 4th grade because I was Shia, and it amazes me now that children at that age were saying such things, its obvious that this was what they were told at home.

I`m also really glad to read all the other replies to this article. Its good to know that there are still a few Sunni ppl who are willing to give other ppl a chance. Maybe this isnt relevant here, but for those of you who are interested, ``Then I Was Guided`` by Mohammed Tejani Samawi is a book that tells the readers exactly why Shia people do what they do.

Patrick Masih / Ahmedzai

Maybe you guys need to do more research on the connection between the HUM and the SSP before you sound off on their not being a connection. The HUA, HUM, SSP are all inter-related. The Jaish e Mohammad broke away from the HUM.

How do I know all this?

By reading the Pakistani media on a regular basis. Especially some knowledgable journalists like Kamran Khan.

As far as egg on someone`s face is concerned, I would assume that occurs everytime there is a massacre in a church or a Shia Mosque.

Why don`t you Shias and Sunnis just wipe eachother out and rid the world of the morons who think nothing else but their stupid religions 24/7/365.

When there is Garbage and filth flowing all around our streets, when there are billions of hungry stomachs all these stupid morons worry about is whether they are properly bending over 5 times a day in proper angle. geeeeeeeez ................

what`s out to be on our minds ?

http://www.deccan.com/features/school/template.shtml#The%20President’s%20kids

Ahmadzai: You are a bit slow so let me take a moment to explain something to you.

It does not matter what you or I think about Kashmir. You can carry on thinking it is occupied territory and I can carry on thinking it is India. It does not matter.

What matters is how the powers that be think. There lies the difference between India and Pakistan.

India belives that Kashmir belongs to it and it has contracted the job of keeping Kashmir to the Army. The soldiers and officers wear the uniform of the Army, get paid by the government and therefore are loyal to the government. No conflict of interest there. The motivation of the soldiers is nationalism, professional as well as institutional pride.

Pakistan believes that Kashmir belongs to it but unlike India it has not contracted its Army to fight for it. Instead, the fighting is subcontracted to Jehadis. These Jehadis are motivated by their religion, or rather, their view of their religion. Why would you assume that their fanaticism would begin and end in Kashmir and not spill over in other aspects of their world view. After all, they are the ones fighting in Kashmir, not you. What gives you the right to tell them these activities are all right and not others?

After all, Islam is not a buffet that you pick and choose. If a certain view of Islam is used to instigate Jehad, than that view of Iislam has to be adopted wholly and solely.

P.S. Though Indian, I do have the ability to think from multiple perspectives. I believe that Pakistan was justified, indeed did the right thing, in supporting the Kashmiri insurgency in 1989. The mistake Pak made was to eliminate the strength of the JKLF and replace it with Hizbul, and subsequently with LeT.

Also, though Pakistan knew what it wanted it did not have an idea of what it could settle for. I believe it still does not.

HisExcellency:

Always a pleasure to read your posts. In my opinion, you are the quintessential Pakistani ``Liberal`` ie educated, a nationalist rather than an Islamist, and probably a moderate Muslim in your personal habits.

Theoretically a Pakistan run by your type could get along with India without any problems because our worldviews are largely similar. But that is the irony of Indo-Ppak relations that your rule of Pakistan is actually much worse for India than the rule of Jehadis.

The bone of contention is Kashmir, and as far as Kashmir is concerned, no Pakistani government, right or left, has managed to solve the issue to India`s satisfaction. On the flip side, moderate well spoken Pakistanis go abroad and raise problems for India while the Jehadis do the dirty work quitely.

In my personal opinion, it is to India`s advantage if a Taliban style government comes to power in Isloo. First, a nuke armed Taliban republic will make all the other powers support India. Second, the sectarian violence will weaken Pak civil society. The condition of women can be highlighted by India as a symbol of backwardness and to create a perception of the ``other`` in western audiences. Third, economically Pakistan will suffer even more. As the conventional imbalance rises, Pakistan`s last resort nuclear option will become its first resort nuclear option, thereby increasing international support for a preemtive first strike.

:)

The above may be considered an Indian Hawk`s wet dream. But I would be interested in your response. In fact I encourage you to poke holes in the above theory.