Carnage and Casuality

A good article but please can Chowk format it--it is quite difficult to read. The topic is important.

I am a Sunni traditionalist and I have theological differences with the Shia interpretation of Islam BUT I absolutely and totally without reserve condemn the killings of Shias. It is a totally barbaric and un Islamic act. And mainstream Sunnis such as I do not consider all Shias to be kafirs either: that is a viewpoint of some extremist Deobandis and Wahabis such as the hated Sipah e Sahaba (who I suspect are probably behind the carnage).
Those people are terrorists. Pure and simple.

**

Interesting, how such young children have been indoctrinated with such hatred and intolerance. I remember when we were growing up we used to go to watch the Shias wail and cry and beat themselves as if it were a show. To us it was entertainment, and we would look out for any Shia friends to see how `macho` he was and to see if he was using the knives or not. I also remember at one point even Sunni guys wearing black kortey as it become fashionable to be Shia during Muharram, the reason being that you are a macho man if you are beating yourself in the Imambargah, and the black korta was used to attract the attention of young women.

This was in Jhang, where every Muharram big army tanks and trucks would role in to keep the peace and for 10 days there would be a curfew at night. Army had the order to shoot to kill if they seen more than two people walking together at night. But still the majority of people in Jhang lived in peace even though the Sunni Shia divide has strong roots there with nasty political parties coming from there.

In Faisalabad, we could see the tall haveli of a rich Shia family from my Taya`s roof, being young kids coming from the UK, and not knowing much about Shias, my older cousins would spin me stories about the Shia`s and tell me that if i wasn`t a good boy the Shia`s would kidnap me and eat me for dinner. I laugh at the stories now, but ignorance is part of the problem, many Sunnis dont have a clue about the Shia beliefs, and their main source of religious information i.e. the religious people, spin such BS because either, they dont know or dont want to know.

A national reconcilliation type project can go along way in helping remove stupid stereotypes of each other, and improve understanding of each others faith. After all the battle of Kerbala is mourned by all Muslims, shouldn`t everyone be wearing a black korta on that day, regardless of sect?

I wonder if Patrick Masih would like to comment on the Jehadi culture encouraged by succesive Pakistani estabblishments to fund the war in Kashmir and its corelation to fanaticism at home.

After all, once the Hindus are killed, the hunters will look for new targets right?

What exactly is the exit strategy of those who encourage Jehad in Kashmir?

Stuka,
There may or may not be a correlation. The SSP are the chief, and, if memory serves, original, instigators of sectarian violence. Shia outfits are happy to retaliate. Neither of these groups are active in occupied Kashmir (POK or IOK). Further, the origins of the Shia/Sunni violence can be traced back to Jangh, in `85, a full four years before the Kashmir uprising and subsequent involvement of the Pakistani establishment for `strategic depth` purposes.
So, nice try, but won`t wash!
rgds,
PM
P.S. Dude, I`ve a got a good enough memory to know where you`re coming from and where you think I am. My sincere advice: Drop it before the the egg`s on the face again.

#3 by stuka on July 23, 2003 10:19pm PT

++
What exactly is the exit strategy of those who encourage Jehad in Kashmir?
++

Architects of Kashmir Jehad didn`t consider an exit strategy necessary. For them, Kashmir Jehad was not a one-time project. If Srinagar fell, they would gun for New Delhi. If New Delhi fell, they would go for Beijing, Moscow, Tokyo, Jerusalem, Tehran, London, Paris and Washington... The infusion of Wahhabi and sectarian elements into the Kashmir Jehad has actually weakened the Kashmir movement and unleashed retrogressive forces in Pakistan.

Their chief source of strength are the madrassahs that provide them with street power. Perhaps Musharraf lacks the political will to crack down on the madrassahs. In the end, Pakistan`s greatest threat is from these Jehadis, not from India.

As Confucious rightly said: ``A sane enemy is better than an insane ally``.

#4 by PM on July 23, 2003 10:45pm PT

Although SSP and Sipah-e-Muhammad are not directly involved in Kashmir, they certainly provide the manpower and training for ``mehmaan mujahideen`` (guest freedom fighters) in Kashmir.

Unlike the Kashmiri freedom fighters who are largely moderate Muslims, many ``mehmaan mujahideen`` subscribe to rabid sectarian views. The killings of Hindus in Anantnag and murder of Shias in Quetta bear resemblence. Both Kashmir cause and Pakistan`s image are tarnished by such terrorist incidents. Although it is possible that Indian RAW could be involved in such incidents, the presence of violent sectarian elements within Pakistan can also not be ignored.

re: PM

It is the Deobandi and Wahabi thought process, which is behind the levels of intolerance in Pakistan. That is one aspect and the other is, that the state encourages this by its inactions to curb such tendencies. Guilt by denial.

I know this will be thought of as a trite comment, but the Saudi money which poured into Pakistan in the 1980s and the 1990s changed the discourse of religions in Pakistan. If you follow the money, you will understand where the problem started and even the Americans admitted such recently. Saudi money has spawned a evil in the name of Islam and now, it is slowly devouring its own creators.

Ciao

Ref HisExcellency #5

[Architects of Kashmir Jehad didn`t consider an exit strategy necessary. For them, Kashmir Jehad was not a one-time project. If Srinagar fell, they would gun for New Delhi. If New Delhi fell, they would go for Beijing, Moscow, Tokyo, Jerusalem, Tehran, London, Paris and Washington... ]

Does Eastern Turkestan aka Xinjiang anywhere on the list or does the eternal friendship between the Pakistani and the Chinese people rule out any attempt to liberate Eastern Turkestan?

In response to an insunuation of an earlier post, the sectarian terrorist parties operating in Pakistan and on the run now have not participated in Jihad of Kashmir.

Secondly, the Indians like Stuka should get rid of their Stukap mentality regarding Kashmir issue. Counting beads of cross-border terrorism under the propaganda of their Government will do them no good. Kashmir is a disputed territory. If Indians can claim that it is cross-border terrorism by terrorists from Pakistani side, then Pakistanis and Kashmiris believe that it is terrorism by Indian army. The fact is that there are innocent martyrs and maimed Kashmiris in every family at the hands of Indian para-military and police. It is just a matter for the Indians to talk to any Kashmiri and find what their feelings are.

The one and only real issue remains giving voice to Kashmiris promised to them by Lord Mounty, Pundit Nehru and the UN.

First of all, i want to thank Patrick Masih for writing this..

isnt it ironic how sunnis dont openly condemn these things? I am thankful to people like Naqshbandi and ally who expressed their condemnation but where is everyone else?

I am very proud of being a pakistani despite the fact that I have had relatives killed simply because they were shia. Many of us have had to fled to foreign countries because of similar threats. But i would still love to go back and live in pakistan - sometimes though i ask myself if i really should be this patriotic?

I know i belong to a minority group. But somehow i am proud of that because the minorities in pakistan - the christians, parsis, ahmedis, shias - have contributed to the fields of education tremendously. Moreover although they have faced so much repression, they continue to support their country unconditionally.

Im sorry if i am acting rather immaturely and emotionally by writing the above, but somehow, seeing the pillars of my community butchered because they subscribed to non-wahabiism really affects me. And i did witness it personally.

I just want to clarify a few misunderstandings that educated sunnis have asked me about.Since childhood i was asked these questions and time and again i have clarified them, questions like:

- do you guys spit in your food?
No. This was asked of ``niaz`` or food on which we pray fateha(prayer) over. No we donot spit in our food, otherwise how would we eat it? (The Sipahesahaba website has proclaimed that we make our men put their ``stuff`` in it - i have to marvel at their imagination while feeling disgusted at their hatred)

- do men and women perform sexual acts on ashura in the imambarga?
Yes as ridiculous as it sounds, people actually believe this.. i think it stems from the agakhani practice of holding hands when praying certain duas (dont see anything wrong with that) combined with the fact that we switch off all lights on the night of ashura to mourn iman hussain. No we donot do any such thing. I would invite anyone who has the opportunity to please attend one of these majlises and see for themselves that all we do is remember our slain imam and mourn. The lights are switched off because it gives a sense of ``sham-e-garibaan`` eve of the poor which is what we refer to ashura night as.

-didnt you kill imam hussain yourself and are now weeping over it?
No. Yazid had imam hussain and his family killed (please see shianews.com for a detailed account)

-you guys emphasize hazrat ali more than the prophet
No. We believe the prophet was in fact the last prophet but we believe hazrat ali deserved to be the first caliph and his right was usurped. Once again, its a belief - you may not agree with it, but thats no reason to kill people who do. We emphasize the 5 panjitan - The prophet, hazrat ali, bibi fatema(d/o the prophet) and the prophet`s grandsons Imam hassan and Imam hussain. We praise and love and revere the prophet just as sunnis.we have milads too btw

- you pray twice/once a day
No.we have five times just like you guys. see shianews.com for details

-you dont believe in the Koran/you have a different Koran
Nope. Exact same as other muslims. every word is the same.

I would like to point out here that most shias dont agree with hurling abuse on the caliphs, infact i was never told the sunnis were different or the 4 caliphs were negative - i wonder why sunnis are fed so much damaging information about shias.

I remember the days when my memon neighbours would come to our majlises wearing pink and red and noone looked at them twice. I remember the days when sunnis came to our jullooses, our majlises to hear about imam husain.I remember them sending us niaz because they commemorated ashura too. Imam husain is the sunnis as much as he is the shias, but in their hatred of shias, the wahabis have created this anti-husain phenomenon that ripples through the entire sunni community - even my tolerant friends have strange ideas about shias.

I`d like to emphasize what naqshbandi said : this does not apply to all sunnis - it is the extremist wahabis who spread such damaging information about shias and are responsible for killing not only shias but christians and ahmedis as well. Just because we dont agree with their views doesnt mean we deserve to be killed. I just wish the tolerant sunnis would try and erase these misconceptions and speak out.

Patrick

kahan ghayab thay aap?…welcome back…

re: this effort…have a feeling even after 500 o 1000 interacts we will not be any closer to truth…it is not easy to admit that the cancerous cells are spreading fast in our body…

…why are we (Indians and Pakistanis muslims and hindus) increasingly so intolerant? … one aspect of this has been raised by dost-mittar in his article below…

…education: both lack of and doctored/channelised, economic and religious disparity, occupying army, reaction to uni-power’s encroaching raj, reaction to the saffron/green charge, provincialism, parochialism…these are only some of the maladies afflicting us in various degrees…

..in simpler words…we should avoid the fallacy to dump it all upon the fragile shoulders of the pseudo-mullahs or other fundos in the re(li)gions…

stukaji

What exactly is the exit strategy of those who encourage Jehad in Kashmir?

exit strategy?…mass circumcision or the promised houris! aur kya?;)

bat

well said!

…life is important…if words provide solace…have said it many times…am against any loss of innocent lives at the hands of individuals, organizations and states…

...having said that i agree with you…we do not do raise enough decibels…and this gives off the erroneous impression of lack of empathy…and perhaps also contributes to the rise of ultra orthodoxy, intolerance and bigotism…we need a concerted and collective jehad against this tide...

rgds

t

HisExcellency:

Always a pleasure to read your posts. In my opinion, you are the quintessential Pakistani ``Liberal`` ie educated, a nationalist rather than an Islamist, and probably a moderate Muslim in your personal habits.

Theoretically a Pakistan run by your type could get along with India without any problems because our worldviews are largely similar. But that is the irony of Indo-Ppak relations that your rule of Pakistan is actually much worse for India than the rule of Jehadis.

The bone of contention is Kashmir, and as far as Kashmir is concerned, no Pakistani government, right or left, has managed to solve the issue to India`s satisfaction. On the flip side, moderate well spoken Pakistanis go abroad and raise problems for India while the Jehadis do the dirty work quitely.

In my personal opinion, it is to India`s advantage if a Taliban style government comes to power in Isloo. First, a nuke armed Taliban republic will make all the other powers support India. Second, the sectarian violence will weaken Pak civil society. The condition of women can be highlighted by India as a symbol of backwardness and to create a perception of the ``other`` in western audiences. Third, economically Pakistan will suffer even more. As the conventional imbalance rises, Pakistan`s last resort nuclear option will become its first resort nuclear option, thereby increasing international support for a preemtive first strike.

:)

The above may be considered an Indian Hawk`s wet dream. But I would be interested in your response. In fact I encourage you to poke holes in the above theory.

Ahmadzai: You are a bit slow so let me take a moment to explain something to you.

It does not matter what you or I think about Kashmir. You can carry on thinking it is occupied territory and I can carry on thinking it is India. It does not matter.

What matters is how the powers that be think. There lies the difference between India and Pakistan.

India belives that Kashmir belongs to it and it has contracted the job of keeping Kashmir to the Army. The soldiers and officers wear the uniform of the Army, get paid by the government and therefore are loyal to the government. No conflict of interest there. The motivation of the soldiers is nationalism, professional as well as institutional pride.

Pakistan believes that Kashmir belongs to it but unlike India it has not contracted its Army to fight for it. Instead, the fighting is subcontracted to Jehadis. These Jehadis are motivated by their religion, or rather, their view of their religion. Why would you assume that their fanaticism would begin and end in Kashmir and not spill over in other aspects of their world view. After all, they are the ones fighting in Kashmir, not you. What gives you the right to tell them these activities are all right and not others?

After all, Islam is not a buffet that you pick and choose. If a certain view of Islam is used to instigate Jehad, than that view of Iislam has to be adopted wholly and solely.

P.S. Though Indian, I do have the ability to think from multiple perspectives. I believe that Pakistan was justified, indeed did the right thing, in supporting the Kashmiri insurgency in 1989. The mistake Pak made was to eliminate the strength of the JKLF and replace it with Hizbul, and subsequently with LeT.

Also, though Pakistan knew what it wanted it did not have an idea of what it could settle for. I believe it still does not.

Why don`t you Shias and Sunnis just wipe eachother out and rid the world of the morons who think nothing else but their stupid religions 24/7/365.

When there is Garbage and filth flowing all around our streets, when there are billions of hungry stomachs all these stupid morons worry about is whether they are properly bending over 5 times a day in proper angle. geeeeeeeez ................

what`s out to be on our minds ?

http://www.deccan.com/features/school/template.shtml#The%20President’s%20kids

Patrick Masih / Ahmedzai

Maybe you guys need to do more research on the connection between the HUM and the SSP before you sound off on their not being a connection. The HUA, HUM, SSP are all inter-related. The Jaish e Mohammad broke away from the HUM.

How do I know all this?

By reading the Pakistani media on a regular basis. Especially some knowledgable journalists like Kamran Khan.

As far as egg on someone`s face is concerned, I would assume that occurs everytime there is a massacre in a church or a Shia Mosque.

I havent been a member at Chowk for very long, but this article is the best I`ve read so far. I`d also like to thank Patrick for writing this because I think people need to realize that anyone who does anything differently doesnt deserve to be condemned or killed! We cant change everyone`s opinion but this article is definitely a start and I hope we get a lot more of these.

#10 by bat on July 24, 2003 8:22am PT
I completely agree with everything you said in your reply. I`ve been through the exact same things and ppl have asked me the exact same questions. There was a time in my school days when I was actually ashamed of telling ppl I was shia, because then everyone would think I`m a freak who spits in ppls food. We were never told that Sunni`s are wrong or that we shouldnt talk to them or eat what they give us. We were always just taught to follow our religion to the best of our abilities and let everyone else follow theirs. I was harrassed when I was in 4th grade because I was Shia, and it amazes me now that children at that age were saying such things, its obvious that this was what they were told at home.

I`m also really glad to read all the other replies to this article. Its good to know that there are still a few Sunni ppl who are willing to give other ppl a chance. Maybe this isnt relevant here, but for those of you who are interested, ``Then I Was Guided`` by Mohammed Tejani Samawi is a book that tells the readers exactly why Shia people do what they do.