Hey Ram, What Have You Done to My Religion?
Dost Mittar July 21, 2003
#14 Posted by ThereUGo on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
Gardening is introduced in India by Muslim rulers? What a joke. Have you heard of Ashok Vatika? Go figure what was that.
You wonder how intolerence crept in among Hindus? It was not because of telecast of Ramayan. It happened because:
``It was indeed fashionable to criticize the Hindu religion as backward, regressive, worshipper of animals and funny gods, and to associate it with the oppression of lower castes and women. ``
reply to this interact
write a new interact
add to favorites
flag objectionable content
#13 Posted by Maharana on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
Dost-mittar,
An excellent article on one of the biggest plagues facing india today. Your observation of media, people and police are bang on target.
But i do not agree with your opinion on the cause of this intolerance due to Ramayana on doordarshan. More on that, when i have some time. I`m sure it would require a long post.
Keep writing such good stuff.
Adios
An excellent article on one of the biggest plagues facing india today. Your observation of media, people and police are bang on target.
But i do not agree with your opinion on the cause of this intolerance due to Ramayana on doordarshan. More on that, when i have some time. I`m sure it would require a long post.
Keep writing such good stuff.
Adios
#12 Posted by ghatee on July 22, 2003 10:00:19 am
dost-mitterji,
Excellent article. Kudos.
May be you did not say it. Our nation needs only one spineful guy or a gal who could say this openly....
`We do not any more mandirs or masjids. Not even one. Not even THE one. We need one more school. or a road (may be AND instead of OR), or a hospital....., canals... dams.... playgrounds???`
Ghatee
Excellent article. Kudos.
May be you did not say it. Our nation needs only one spineful guy or a gal who could say this openly....
`We do not any more mandirs or masjids. Not even one. Not even THE one. We need one more school. or a road (may be AND instead of OR), or a hospital....., canals... dams.... playgrounds???`
Ghatee
#11 Posted by ferozk on July 22, 2003 8:01:21 am
re: Dost-Mittar
This was a thoughtful article.
Ciao
This was a thoughtful article.
Ciao
#10 Posted by stuka on July 22, 2003 7:59:00 am
Harish Hyd:
``Perhaps it is so because the army genuinely believes in two central `truths` -- oneness of god and victory in operations. Both are so sacred we cannot nitpick and question the basics. ``
God is a witness, this is the truth. Iin my early days of Chowk I kept repeating that the Army is the most secular of all instittutions in India.
People like Urstruly allege that Army is responsible for killing Kashmiri Muslims. That is true. But it is done as part of counter insurgency operations.
People like Urstuly allege that Human Rights violations take place. Again, as any military officer who is more than an armchair warrior will tell you, to some extent it is a universal phenomenon. Every professional Army tries to minimize it and yet under the pressure of counter insurgency ops, sometimes HR abuses do take place.
People like Urstruly allege that this is due to Anti Islam bias. That is a base lie. The Iindian Army conducts the same operations in Sikh dominated Punjab, Hindu dominated Assam and Manipur and Christian Nagaland.
The Army`s Kargil website lists the name of those killed in action. The JAK LI and Grenadiers were predominantly Muslim. The Iindian Amry, unlike the Pakistan Army, is not an Army of God.
It is an Army of All Indians.
At the School of Artillery in Deolali, I have personally seen a Masjid, Temple, Church and Gurudwara in one line and wide open entrances.
``Perhaps it is so because the army genuinely believes in two central `truths` -- oneness of god and victory in operations. Both are so sacred we cannot nitpick and question the basics. ``
God is a witness, this is the truth. Iin my early days of Chowk I kept repeating that the Army is the most secular of all instittutions in India.
People like Urstruly allege that Army is responsible for killing Kashmiri Muslims. That is true. But it is done as part of counter insurgency operations.
People like Urstuly allege that Human Rights violations take place. Again, as any military officer who is more than an armchair warrior will tell you, to some extent it is a universal phenomenon. Every professional Army tries to minimize it and yet under the pressure of counter insurgency ops, sometimes HR abuses do take place.
People like Urstruly allege that this is due to Anti Islam bias. That is a base lie. The Iindian Army conducts the same operations in Sikh dominated Punjab, Hindu dominated Assam and Manipur and Christian Nagaland.
The Army`s Kargil website lists the name of those killed in action. The JAK LI and Grenadiers were predominantly Muslim. The Iindian Amry, unlike the Pakistan Army, is not an Army of God.
It is an Army of All Indians.
At the School of Artillery in Deolali, I have personally seen a Masjid, Temple, Church and Gurudwara in one line and wide open entrances.
#9 Posted by rozaiba on July 22, 2003 7:33:17 am
is it really a matter of application of the law. perhaps. a bengali friend of mine tells me how in west bengal there is a district which is predominantly muslim. congress put up muslim candidates but no matter what jyoti basu wins.
all this stress on religion is nonesense.
all this stress on religion is nonesense.
#8 Posted by Ali87 on July 22, 2003 7:20:24 am
Perhaps this a matter of people whom one interacts I too grew up in Delhi for a while Neither there nor any place else in India did i find it was fashionable to criticize the Hindu religion as backward, regressive, worshipper of animals and funny gods.
Perhaps it is so among some people may be those who incline towards the Arya Samaj ethos(may be you felt it because of your interactions, Im just guessing not making a comment on Arya Samajis)
While indeed many did critize hinduism on caste or role of women it wasnt a blanket critisizm.
/given his recent statements on various issues concerning Muslims and also Dalits I really wonder what was the position of Arun Shourie during those period. It does indicate that his present position is not new perhaps either he or the media choose not to highlight his stand on muslims when he was meerly a journalist and editor.
Apart from the issue of the voilence among hindus or any other section of socitey what has also to be kept in mind is the role of governence in promiting letting the voilence happen.
That a govt needs to fullfil its role ie of providign governence is important this is neither a isssue of being hindu or muslim.
no matter if at certain point of time we belive that most hindus will give up voilence as a means to settle disputes unless we expect the govt to preform the role of keeping the law and order we will continue to have large scale voilence.
Unless we do this even small powerfull minorities can perputate violence in thenation,
Perhaps it is so among some people may be those who incline towards the Arya Samaj ethos(may be you felt it because of your interactions, Im just guessing not making a comment on Arya Samajis)
While indeed many did critize hinduism on caste or role of women it wasnt a blanket critisizm.
/given his recent statements on various issues concerning Muslims and also Dalits I really wonder what was the position of Arun Shourie during those period. It does indicate that his present position is not new perhaps either he or the media choose not to highlight his stand on muslims when he was meerly a journalist and editor.
Apart from the issue of the voilence among hindus or any other section of socitey what has also to be kept in mind is the role of governence in promiting letting the voilence happen.
That a govt needs to fullfil its role ie of providign governence is important this is neither a isssue of being hindu or muslim.
no matter if at certain point of time we belive that most hindus will give up voilence as a means to settle disputes unless we expect the govt to preform the role of keeping the law and order we will continue to have large scale voilence.
Unless we do this even small powerfull minorities can perputate violence in thenation,
#7 Posted by Ahmadzai on July 22, 2003 7:20:24 am
This is a very good article with balanced outlook towards the two communities that can only come from conviction of an unbiased mindset. Unlike many articles that proliferate Indo-Pakistan press describing only the problems plaguing our two societies, this article outlines a course of action for solving them too. The confidence shown by the writer, decidedly a non-apologist, without any guilt of belonging to a particular community (whatever that may be) is admirable.
Few observations:
1. India`s asset i.e. secularism and democracy, is an edge that will positively contribute to solving the problem if the methodology outlined by the writer is adopted.
2. The Muslim Indians too need to come out of their communalist approach and try to become a contributing member of the pluralist society. However, this does not mean that they give up their religion or their affinity with international Muslim brotherhood including that of Pakistan to achieve that. Again, Hinduism as being a peaceful Way of Life can easily permit them to do so.
3. Nevertheless, at the cost of raising a few eye brows, I would like to say that the biggest burden will lie on majority Hindu Indians. It is they who have to stop pursuing a strangest of path of a majority trying to assert its identity through Hindutva. Subsequent to 9/11, it is they who will have to stop maligning Islam and Muslims to capitalize on anti-Muslim sentiments of the Westerners to gain their support in causes like Kashmir. It is they who will have to pressurize their Government to cease all hostilities against Pakistan at diplomatic and economic fronts as part of its undeclared war. This they have to do, because put together, these factors turn the Muslim Indians into villains and whipping boys for a great majority under the influence of an extremist Government that leads them. The unfortunate popularity of the extremist Government comes from their being at this specific position at this specific point of time when India is reaping a harvest of economic benefits the seeds of which were sown in yesteryears.
Few observations:
1. India`s asset i.e. secularism and democracy, is an edge that will positively contribute to solving the problem if the methodology outlined by the writer is adopted.
2. The Muslim Indians too need to come out of their communalist approach and try to become a contributing member of the pluralist society. However, this does not mean that they give up their religion or their affinity with international Muslim brotherhood including that of Pakistan to achieve that. Again, Hinduism as being a peaceful Way of Life can easily permit them to do so.
3. Nevertheless, at the cost of raising a few eye brows, I would like to say that the biggest burden will lie on majority Hindu Indians. It is they who have to stop pursuing a strangest of path of a majority trying to assert its identity through Hindutva. Subsequent to 9/11, it is they who will have to stop maligning Islam and Muslims to capitalize on anti-Muslim sentiments of the Westerners to gain their support in causes like Kashmir. It is they who will have to pressurize their Government to cease all hostilities against Pakistan at diplomatic and economic fronts as part of its undeclared war. This they have to do, because put together, these factors turn the Muslim Indians into villains and whipping boys for a great majority under the influence of an extremist Government that leads them. The unfortunate popularity of the extremist Government comes from their being at this specific position at this specific point of time when India is reaping a harvest of economic benefits the seeds of which were sown in yesteryears.
#6 Posted by rsaxena on July 22, 2003 7:20:10 am
{India as we, including those in the sangh parivaar, know and love today, wouldn’t be the same without the multi-faceted contributions of Muslim Indians}
...you mean the contribution of Indian Muslims...please don`t fall into that trap...it is a dangerous one...
...you mean the contribution of Indian Muslims...please don`t fall into that trap...it is a dangerous one...
#5 Posted by harish_hyd on July 22, 2003 7:20:10 am
Amidst the despair, there`s still hope. India cannot and will not ever let go of secularism, in spite of thugs like Modi and Thackeray. Meanwhile read this beautiful piece. What does it say?
Soldiers` God
Colonel Neeraj Bali, SM
As a serving army officer, I never stop marvelling at the gullibility of our countrymen to be provoked with alacrity into virulence in the name of religion. I have never heard the word `secular` during all my service -- and yet, the simple things that are done simply in the army make it appear like an island of sanity in a sea of hatred.
In the army, each officer identifies with the religion of his troops. In regiments where the soldiers are from more than one religion, the officers -- and indeed all jawans – attend the weekly religious prayers of all the faiths. How many times have I trooped out of the battalion mandir and, having worn my shoes, entered the battalion church next door? A few years ago it all became simpler -- mandirs, masjids, gurudwars and churches began to share premises all over the army. It saved us the walk.
Perhaps it is so because the army genuinely believes in two central `truths` -- oneness of god and victory in operations. Both are so sacred we cannot nitpick and question the basics.
In fact, sometimes the army mixes up the two! On a visit to the holy cave at Amarnath a few years ago I saw a plaque mounted on the side of the hill by a battalion that had once guarded the annual Yatra. It said, `Best wishes from -- battalion. Deployed for Operation Amarnath.`
On another instance, I remember a commanding officer ordered the battalion maulaviji to conduct the proceedings of Janamashtmi prayers because the panditji had to proceed on leave on compassionate grounds. No eyebrows were raised. It was the most rousing and best-prepared sermon on Lord Krishna I have ever had the pleasure of listening to.
On the Line of Control, a company of Khemkhani Muslim soldiers replaced a Dogra battalion. Over the next few days, the post was shelled heavily by Pakistanis, and there were a few non-fatal casualties.
One day, the junior commissioned officer of the company, Subedar Sarwar Khan walked up to the company commander Major Sharma and said, ``Sahib, ever since the Dogras left, the mandir has been shut. Why don`t you open it once every evening and do aarti? Why are we displeasing the gods?``
Major Sharma shamefacedly confessed he did not know all the words of the aarti. Subedar Sarwar went away and that night, huddled over the radio set under a weak lantern light, painstakingly took down the words of the aarti from the post of another battalion!
How many of us know that along the entire border with Pakistan, our troops abstain from alcohol and non-vegetarian food on all Thursdays? The reason: It is called the Peer day -- essentially a day of religious significance for the Muslims.
In 1984, after Operation Bluestar there was anguish in the Sikh community over the desecration of the holiest of their shrines. Some of this anger and hurt was visible in the army too.
I remember the first Sikh festival days after the event -- the number of army personnel of every religious denomination that thronged the regimental gurudwara of the nearest Sikh battalion was the largest I had seen. I distinctly remember each officer and soldier who put his forehead to the ground to pay obeisance appeared to linger just a wee bit longer than usual. Was I imagining this? I do not think so. There was that empathy and caring implicit in the quality of the gesture that appeared to say, ``You are hurt and we all understand.``
We were deployed on the Line of Control those days. Soon after the news of disaffection among a small section of Sikh troops was broadcast on the BBC, Pakistani troops deployed opposite the Sikh battalion yelled across to express their `solidarity` with the Sikhs.
The Sikh havildar shouted back that the Pakistanis had better not harbour any wrong notions. ``If you dare move towards this post, we will mow you down.``
Finally, a real -- and true -- gem. Two boys of a Sikh regiment battalion were overheard discussing this a day before Christmas.
``Why are we having a holiday tomorrow?`` asked Sepoy Singh.
``It is Christmas,`` replied the wiser Naik Singh.
``But what is Christmas?``
``Christmas,`` replied Naik Singh, with his eyes half shut in reverence and hands in a spontaneous prayer-clasp, ``is the guruparb of the Christians.``
Soldiers` God
Colonel Neeraj Bali, SM
As a serving army officer, I never stop marvelling at the gullibility of our countrymen to be provoked with alacrity into virulence in the name of religion. I have never heard the word `secular` during all my service -- and yet, the simple things that are done simply in the army make it appear like an island of sanity in a sea of hatred.
In the army, each officer identifies with the religion of his troops. In regiments where the soldiers are from more than one religion, the officers -- and indeed all jawans – attend the weekly religious prayers of all the faiths. How many times have I trooped out of the battalion mandir and, having worn my shoes, entered the battalion church next door? A few years ago it all became simpler -- mandirs, masjids, gurudwars and churches began to share premises all over the army. It saved us the walk.
Perhaps it is so because the army genuinely believes in two central `truths` -- oneness of god and victory in operations. Both are so sacred we cannot nitpick and question the basics.
In fact, sometimes the army mixes up the two! On a visit to the holy cave at Amarnath a few years ago I saw a plaque mounted on the side of the hill by a battalion that had once guarded the annual Yatra. It said, `Best wishes from -- battalion. Deployed for Operation Amarnath.`
On another instance, I remember a commanding officer ordered the battalion maulaviji to conduct the proceedings of Janamashtmi prayers because the panditji had to proceed on leave on compassionate grounds. No eyebrows were raised. It was the most rousing and best-prepared sermon on Lord Krishna I have ever had the pleasure of listening to.
On the Line of Control, a company of Khemkhani Muslim soldiers replaced a Dogra battalion. Over the next few days, the post was shelled heavily by Pakistanis, and there were a few non-fatal casualties.
One day, the junior commissioned officer of the company, Subedar Sarwar Khan walked up to the company commander Major Sharma and said, ``Sahib, ever since the Dogras left, the mandir has been shut. Why don`t you open it once every evening and do aarti? Why are we displeasing the gods?``
Major Sharma shamefacedly confessed he did not know all the words of the aarti. Subedar Sarwar went away and that night, huddled over the radio set under a weak lantern light, painstakingly took down the words of the aarti from the post of another battalion!
How many of us know that along the entire border with Pakistan, our troops abstain from alcohol and non-vegetarian food on all Thursdays? The reason: It is called the Peer day -- essentially a day of religious significance for the Muslims.
In 1984, after Operation Bluestar there was anguish in the Sikh community over the desecration of the holiest of their shrines. Some of this anger and hurt was visible in the army too.
I remember the first Sikh festival days after the event -- the number of army personnel of every religious denomination that thronged the regimental gurudwara of the nearest Sikh battalion was the largest I had seen. I distinctly remember each officer and soldier who put his forehead to the ground to pay obeisance appeared to linger just a wee bit longer than usual. Was I imagining this? I do not think so. There was that empathy and caring implicit in the quality of the gesture that appeared to say, ``You are hurt and we all understand.``
We were deployed on the Line of Control those days. Soon after the news of disaffection among a small section of Sikh troops was broadcast on the BBC, Pakistani troops deployed opposite the Sikh battalion yelled across to express their `solidarity` with the Sikhs.
The Sikh havildar shouted back that the Pakistanis had better not harbour any wrong notions. ``If you dare move towards this post, we will mow you down.``
Finally, a real -- and true -- gem. Two boys of a Sikh regiment battalion were overheard discussing this a day before Christmas.
``Why are we having a holiday tomorrow?`` asked Sepoy Singh.
``It is Christmas,`` replied the wiser Naik Singh.
``But what is Christmas?``
``Christmas,`` replied Naik Singh, with his eyes half shut in reverence and hands in a spontaneous prayer-clasp, ``is the guruparb of the Christians.``
#4 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on July 22, 2003 7:20:10 am
Dost-mitter
As usual, a great thoughtful article. With people like you around, there is still hope in South Asia - in fact in the world.
It is also a tribute to Chowk which lets us share diverse views.
In some odd sardonical manner, this intolerance in India is a having a salutary effect in Pakistas - making people realize the foolishness of being intolerant. Some thing out of which people have made careers in Pakistan.
And now guys like Fazlur Rehman are preaching peace & tolerance in India.
#3 Posted by faisaluno on July 22, 2003 7:20:10 am
this is a well-written article and deserves wider dissemination. don’t agree with the basic premise though. stressing history is only going to reemphasize differences. better strategy is to appeal to the good side of Indians.
#2 Posted by sarwar on July 22, 2003 7:20:10 am
=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts
view this users filtered interacts
#1 Posted by aakar on July 22, 2003 7:20:10 am
hello all
this chowk format is horrid, no wonder am seeing (on return after many months) such little interaction.
on this article:
- should have said a little bit about why the author thinks hindu opinion (if there is such a thing) is turning against muslims in general and specifically during the 1990s. it`s too easy to blame the bjp.
- secondly, a story about india today, whose secular standards the author scoffs at. after the babri masjid was brought down, india today gujarati ran a cover headlined SHAME!. thousands of letters were written threatening cancellation of subscriptions if this were not withdrawn. the magazine did not do this of course, and chose to shut it down.
india today is a pretty crappy read but the author (and muslims in general who whine about all the time) should know that it stands for it believes in.
i would be interested to know from the author what specific story he thought india today ran which was indulging in soft hindutva, but i suspect it`s just a casual swipe.
- it`s also interesting that the author wishes more of the j&k govt`s badness to show and rightly so. how about a little bit also about the great secularists leading the freedom charge? jamaat-e-islami, innocent yasin whose jklf wants nizam-e-mustafa, mirwaiz who along with valleys sunnis wants to join pakistan without the pandits. the freedom fighters are called jaesh-e-muhammad, lashkar-e-taeba, hizb-ul-mujahideen. their rhetoric is explicitly islamic. why are muslims surprised at hindu anger?
- lastly, as a card carrying pseudo secularist hack, i`m a little tired of listening to people saying secular papers did not condemn muslim vandals in godhra enough. which paper specifically did not do this?
aakar
this chowk format is horrid, no wonder am seeing (on return after many months) such little interaction.
on this article:
- should have said a little bit about why the author thinks hindu opinion (if there is such a thing) is turning against muslims in general and specifically during the 1990s. it`s too easy to blame the bjp.
- secondly, a story about india today, whose secular standards the author scoffs at. after the babri masjid was brought down, india today gujarati ran a cover headlined SHAME!. thousands of letters were written threatening cancellation of subscriptions if this were not withdrawn. the magazine did not do this of course, and chose to shut it down.
india today is a pretty crappy read but the author (and muslims in general who whine about all the time) should know that it stands for it believes in.
i would be interested to know from the author what specific story he thought india today ran which was indulging in soft hindutva, but i suspect it`s just a casual swipe.
- it`s also interesting that the author wishes more of the j&k govt`s badness to show and rightly so. how about a little bit also about the great secularists leading the freedom charge? jamaat-e-islami, innocent yasin whose jklf wants nizam-e-mustafa, mirwaiz who along with valleys sunnis wants to join pakistan without the pandits. the freedom fighters are called jaesh-e-muhammad, lashkar-e-taeba, hizb-ul-mujahideen. their rhetoric is explicitly islamic. why are muslims surprised at hindu anger?
- lastly, as a card carrying pseudo secularist hack, i`m a little tired of listening to people saying secular papers did not condemn muslim vandals in godhra enough. which paper specifically did not do this?
aakar
Interact Index
Latest Interacts
- tahmed32: hamidm #116 its all... ‘Dustbin of history’ or
- tahmed32: Dost Mittar: In other... ‘Dustbin of history’ or
- dost_mittar: hamidm: I support India getting... ‘Dustbin of history’ or
- KaalChakra: Yes, thanks, DM Ji.... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- dost_mittar: KaalChakra: This is from your... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- sadna: kaal For many years I've... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- mohar11: countless maass murders have... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
- KaalChakra: first, and to what... Terrorism Accused: Is Legal
