Hey Ram, What Have You Done to My Religion?
Dost Mittar July 21, 2003
#46 Posted by Assad_K on July 23, 2003 6:49:17 am
Fascinating article.
One thing I appreciate about being in the States so much is, really, the diversity. In school I for the most part associated with people of much the same sort of background. In university I got to mingle with people from all over Pakistan. And in the States, with people from all over the world.
Pakistan could only benefit from our people realizing that `a homeland for Islam` doesnt mean a homogeneous sunni-muslim population. The joint electorates are a step in the right direction, but only a step.
I find the composition of the cricket team intriguing, including as it does a Hindu and a Christian!
Cheers, AK
One thing I appreciate about being in the States so much is, really, the diversity. In school I for the most part associated with people of much the same sort of background. In university I got to mingle with people from all over Pakistan. And in the States, with people from all over the world.
Pakistan could only benefit from our people realizing that `a homeland for Islam` doesnt mean a homogeneous sunni-muslim population. The joint electorates are a step in the right direction, but only a step.
I find the composition of the cricket team intriguing, including as it does a Hindu and a Christian!
Cheers, AK
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#45 Posted by harimau on July 23, 2003 6:49:17 am
Ref dost-mittar #41
[And the most intolerant Hinduus are not the illiterate paindoos but the HUMs (Hindu Urban Middle-Class).]
The illiterate paindoos and Biharis have no time to think; they only have time to worry about if they can earn enough money that day to feed their families which in most cases they cannot.
The HUM worries too. They worry about if they would be able to educate their children, whether the children could get into an IIT or medical school, a job in the professions, etc. There they find that every opportunity is closed to them because of vote-bank politics. The single largest vote-bank is the Muslim vote and they could see how the Muslim community is pandered to by pseudo-secularists such as the Congress, the leftists, the Rationalist Thinkers and the Communists. Having put up with it for 50 years and having seen their country reduced to a third-rate nation, they are saying `enough is enough!`
Why do you all cry about the rise of Indian Nationalism? Why do you call it `Hindu` nationalism? Why is it not a secularist movement? Do not people of all faiths in India want the country to progress?
Why is it that not a single person, Indian or Pakistani, has applauded the overthrow of the Sheikh Abdullah dynasty in Kashmir? That happened when the BJP reversed 50 years of Congress policy that pinned India`s hope on one guy and his descendants.
Does any one of you, EVEN ONE PERSON, think for yourselves?
[And the most intolerant Hinduus are not the illiterate paindoos but the HUMs (Hindu Urban Middle-Class).]
The illiterate paindoos and Biharis have no time to think; they only have time to worry about if they can earn enough money that day to feed their families which in most cases they cannot.
The HUM worries too. They worry about if they would be able to educate their children, whether the children could get into an IIT or medical school, a job in the professions, etc. There they find that every opportunity is closed to them because of vote-bank politics. The single largest vote-bank is the Muslim vote and they could see how the Muslim community is pandered to by pseudo-secularists such as the Congress, the leftists, the Rationalist Thinkers and the Communists. Having put up with it for 50 years and having seen their country reduced to a third-rate nation, they are saying `enough is enough!`
Why do you all cry about the rise of Indian Nationalism? Why do you call it `Hindu` nationalism? Why is it not a secularist movement? Do not people of all faiths in India want the country to progress?
Why is it that not a single person, Indian or Pakistani, has applauded the overthrow of the Sheikh Abdullah dynasty in Kashmir? That happened when the BJP reversed 50 years of Congress policy that pinned India`s hope on one guy and his descendants.
Does any one of you, EVEN ONE PERSON, think for yourselves?
#44 Posted by veeresh on July 23, 2003 6:34:05 am
Dost-Mittar ji, perceptive article.
What are your, and other inter-actor`s, views on the implementation of a common civil law regardless of religion, in India?
What are your, and other inter-actor`s, views on the implementation of a common civil law regardless of religion, in India?
#43 Posted by dost_mittar on July 23, 2003 5:49:56 am
nasah:
Inaayat ka bahut bahut shukriya!
You are the soul and conscience of chowk and your appreciation means a lot to me.
ana-dobarah:
``but the point you are making here is that communalism taken to its extreme is bad``
In my opinion, communalism is bad even when not taken to its extreme.
....and thanks for your comments.
harimou:
How can you say that chowk will not publish an artilce on the subject of the destruction of Indian culture by its muslim rulers? Have you submitted an article to them? If not, why don`t you since you seem to have an expertise in this area?
I wish Qasim, Ghazni, Ghauri etc. were soundly defeated by Dahir, Prithvi Raj and other local rulers. But they were not and we had a long period of Muslim rule in India. And while there were persecutions and excesses committed, especially by earlier Sultans, Muslims did make significant contributions; more in the North than in the South since it is North where their presence was felt most. [btw, the famous Vrindavan Garden of Mysore seemed to this layman as inspired by Mughal gardens!]
I have posted numerous posts on chowk criticising Indian and Pakistani Muslims for not taking enough pride in their pre-Islamic past. But it is equally wrong, in my opinion, to suggest that India entered a dark period after the arrival of Mohammad bin Qasim. Positive contributions of Muslims are a part of our heritage and need to be celebrated as much as the earlier Indian achievements. Pakistan is a poorer country for having cleansed itself of its non-Islamic past. I hope we don`t repeat the same mistake in India.
Inaayat ka bahut bahut shukriya!
You are the soul and conscience of chowk and your appreciation means a lot to me.
ana-dobarah:
``but the point you are making here is that communalism taken to its extreme is bad``
In my opinion, communalism is bad even when not taken to its extreme.
....and thanks for your comments.
harimou:
How can you say that chowk will not publish an artilce on the subject of the destruction of Indian culture by its muslim rulers? Have you submitted an article to them? If not, why don`t you since you seem to have an expertise in this area?
I wish Qasim, Ghazni, Ghauri etc. were soundly defeated by Dahir, Prithvi Raj and other local rulers. But they were not and we had a long period of Muslim rule in India. And while there were persecutions and excesses committed, especially by earlier Sultans, Muslims did make significant contributions; more in the North than in the South since it is North where their presence was felt most. [btw, the famous Vrindavan Garden of Mysore seemed to this layman as inspired by Mughal gardens!]
I have posted numerous posts on chowk criticising Indian and Pakistani Muslims for not taking enough pride in their pre-Islamic past. But it is equally wrong, in my opinion, to suggest that India entered a dark period after the arrival of Mohammad bin Qasim. Positive contributions of Muslims are a part of our heritage and need to be celebrated as much as the earlier Indian achievements. Pakistan is a poorer country for having cleansed itself of its non-Islamic past. I hope we don`t repeat the same mistake in India.
#42 Posted by dost_mittar on July 23, 2003 5:25:43 am
temporal:
`` …how much of myth in our lives do we inherit and how much do we manufacture?``
I do believe religion to be what hamidm called a `hereditary disease`. Having said that we are not robots, we do reject and accept myths as grow and learn in the light of our own experiences. A more interesting question is why do we tend to hang on to the superiority of ``our`` myths as compared to ``others``` myths without making a comparative analysis of the same?
No, I am not blaming Ram, it`s a metaphor for those who have manipulated `Ram` to achieve their purpose.
The role of the media is critical in India as elsewhere. The tradition of not naming communities involved in the communal riots, I think, is counterproductive. As you have suggested, in the absence of news, people give credence to the wildest rumours. And nobody gives credence to the usual government pronouncement that ``everything is under control.``
`` …how much of myth in our lives do we inherit and how much do we manufacture?``
I do believe religion to be what hamidm called a `hereditary disease`. Having said that we are not robots, we do reject and accept myths as grow and learn in the light of our own experiences. A more interesting question is why do we tend to hang on to the superiority of ``our`` myths as compared to ``others``` myths without making a comparative analysis of the same?
No, I am not blaming Ram, it`s a metaphor for those who have manipulated `Ram` to achieve their purpose.
The role of the media is critical in India as elsewhere. The tradition of not naming communities involved in the communal riots, I think, is counterproductive. As you have suggested, in the absence of news, people give credence to the wildest rumours. And nobody gives credence to the usual government pronouncement that ``everything is under control.``
#41 Posted by dost_mittar on July 23, 2003 5:06:10 am
ThereUgo, Maharana:
Does vatika refer to a natural growth of flowers and plants or a cultivated garden?
Ramayana serial was not the only event. The Hindu resentment had been building up over a number of years. And yes, the discriminating Nehruvian attitude towards majority and minority communalism did create the conditions in which the charges of pseudo-secularism found a receptive audience among the hindus.
stuka:
Mozzie lovefest? Why not?
You know that I would readily agree with emphasis on governance. But let`s be clear, building roads, industry, infrastructure is not enough. If it were, Gujarat would be the most tolerant state today. And while Bihar may be the most ill-governed, most corrupt, most backward state in India, it is also probably the safest place for Muslims to be today. And the most intolerant Hinduus are not the illiterate paindoos but the HUMs (Hindu Urban Middle-Class).
ferozk, pmishra2, ghatee:
Thank you.
Does vatika refer to a natural growth of flowers and plants or a cultivated garden?
Ramayana serial was not the only event. The Hindu resentment had been building up over a number of years. And yes, the discriminating Nehruvian attitude towards majority and minority communalism did create the conditions in which the charges of pseudo-secularism found a receptive audience among the hindus.
stuka:
Mozzie lovefest? Why not?
You know that I would readily agree with emphasis on governance. But let`s be clear, building roads, industry, infrastructure is not enough. If it were, Gujarat would be the most tolerant state today. And while Bihar may be the most ill-governed, most corrupt, most backward state in India, it is also probably the safest place for Muslims to be today. And the most intolerant Hinduus are not the illiterate paindoos but the HUMs (Hindu Urban Middle-Class).
ferozk, pmishra2, ghatee:
Thank you.
#40 Posted by dost_mittar on July 23, 2003 4:47:58 am
ahmadzai:
I think both Hindus and Muslims in India have to accept their responsibilities. Hindu leaders (and I mean leaders like Vajpayee and even Advani) have to realise that 140 million citizens cannot be wished away or forced to give up their identity and dignity. On the Muslim side, they have yet to replace their modernising element which largely left for Pakistan. Their leadership is now in the hands of bearded mullahs who look like they are coming out of the 18th century; they offer greater resistance to any reform than Bangladeshis or even the mullahs of Pakistan. And it`s not just the minority complex, although that too plays its part. The Muslim leaders who remained in India were either communist-progressive types or the graduates of Deoband and Bareli. The former wrote poetry or joined the communist party and slowly died without reproducing their breed (okay, they did produce Shabana and Javed:-)) but the latter have really proliferated. The Congress party was beholden to them for supporting it against Jinnah before the Partition and cultivated them after the partition to deliver the Muslim votes in the democratic set-up. In doing so, they have grown too big for their beards.
I still have great expectations from Indian Muslims. If they could - allowed to - join the mainstream, they could really assume the leadership of those Muslims who want to reform Islam to make it more politically relevant in a secular, pluralist society.
I think both Hindus and Muslims in India have to accept their responsibilities. Hindu leaders (and I mean leaders like Vajpayee and even Advani) have to realise that 140 million citizens cannot be wished away or forced to give up their identity and dignity. On the Muslim side, they have yet to replace their modernising element which largely left for Pakistan. Their leadership is now in the hands of bearded mullahs who look like they are coming out of the 18th century; they offer greater resistance to any reform than Bangladeshis or even the mullahs of Pakistan. And it`s not just the minority complex, although that too plays its part. The Muslim leaders who remained in India were either communist-progressive types or the graduates of Deoband and Bareli. The former wrote poetry or joined the communist party and slowly died without reproducing their breed (okay, they did produce Shabana and Javed:-)) but the latter have really proliferated. The Congress party was beholden to them for supporting it against Jinnah before the Partition and cultivated them after the partition to deliver the Muslim votes in the democratic set-up. In doing so, they have grown too big for their beards.
I still have great expectations from Indian Muslims. If they could - allowed to - join the mainstream, they could really assume the leadership of those Muslims who want to reform Islam to make it more politically relevant in a secular, pluralist society.
#39 Posted by ferozk on July 23, 2003 2:53:56 am
re: m_souza # 37
It is an inverse proposition.
Why do second generation immigrants want to stop immigration? It does not have to make sense, but your observations are acute.
For example, before a battle you will have people who are eager and you will have people who are not eager. Those who are eager have never seen war and death and those not eager, have seen its consequences. Likewise, fighting spirit is generally more in the politicans who do not have live on the front lines and hear shouts of ``in coming!`` than it is to be found in soldiers. Take the example of the American soldier in Iraq, who did not share Rumsfeld jest for the post-war Iraqi situation.
There is a verse from Faiz Ahmed Faiz, which talks about how to explain pain to a person, who has suffered pain; how to explain a healing of a wound to person, who has seen a hundred wounds healed . It is about experience. Those who have suffered and lost know what it is like and do not want to suffer again and those who have not, they are not aware of what they are asking because they have not lived with the consequences of their actions.
It is this very reason, which angers me, when those who encourage jihad in Kashmir; Pakistani politicans, send others to fight and do not fight themselves. If they really mean what they say, their children should be the first ones to fight instead of attending schools in UK or the United States. Promising a family of poor Rs.50.000 for sending their children to fight in Kashmir is not jihad; it is organized murder based on political riba, which is against Islam.
There are different types of leadership and the essence of leadership is the Alexanderian leadership; leading from the front and encouraging others by your actions.
Sadly, we have leaders, who are led and we have captains, who are not courageous.
Ciao
It is an inverse proposition.
Why do second generation immigrants want to stop immigration? It does not have to make sense, but your observations are acute.
For example, before a battle you will have people who are eager and you will have people who are not eager. Those who are eager have never seen war and death and those not eager, have seen its consequences. Likewise, fighting spirit is generally more in the politicans who do not have live on the front lines and hear shouts of ``in coming!`` than it is to be found in soldiers. Take the example of the American soldier in Iraq, who did not share Rumsfeld jest for the post-war Iraqi situation.
There is a verse from Faiz Ahmed Faiz, which talks about how to explain pain to a person, who has suffered pain; how to explain a healing of a wound to person, who has seen a hundred wounds healed . It is about experience. Those who have suffered and lost know what it is like and do not want to suffer again and those who have not, they are not aware of what they are asking because they have not lived with the consequences of their actions.
It is this very reason, which angers me, when those who encourage jihad in Kashmir; Pakistani politicans, send others to fight and do not fight themselves. If they really mean what they say, their children should be the first ones to fight instead of attending schools in UK or the United States. Promising a family of poor Rs.50.000 for sending their children to fight in Kashmir is not jihad; it is organized murder based on political riba, which is against Islam.
There are different types of leadership and the essence of leadership is the Alexanderian leadership; leading from the front and encouraging others by your actions.
Sadly, we have leaders, who are led and we have captains, who are not courageous.
Ciao
#38 Posted by ahmedmadani on July 22, 2003 10:40:05 pm
The article is excellent.
I am very very busy as I need to take care of things for my abscence up to nov03.
You have not agreed with me but Hindu Ummah is rising and first time attaining power after domination of Muslim power after 1000 years. I am not necessarily useing as negative adjective. As time permits as time available I will put bluntly a rational muslims ( neither secular liberal or Khalifa or old glory fanatics)feeling about rising indian economy, education, churning and more participation of lower castes .
This rising power can only be looked at contempt or disregarded by muslims of Pakistan at their own risk.
It is my contention that even Hindus and Indian muslims are not aware or able to appreciate what is happening. ( as it appears from both hindu and muslim leadership). This has nothing to do with BJP, congress or other regional parties.
I will just give two things and leave ( due to shortage of time to me at this time)
1. Indians were second largest community to migrate to usa in year 2002 and trend is expected to accelerate.
2. A news report from news service.
NEW YORK, July 22 (Reuters) - Two senior officials at
IBM (NYSE:IBM - News), the world`s largest computer
maker, said the company needs to speed its efforts to
move white-collar jobs to India and elsewhere
overseas, The New York Times reported on Tuesday.
The article cited Forrester Research as estimating
450,000 U.S. computer industry jobs could be
transferred overseas in the next 12 years,
representing eight percent of U.S. computer jobs.
In next note I will explain my feelings about rise of ( Unofficial Hindu Ummah- confident and aggressive and global and hindu Muslim relations in India. Again Baniya and brahmins have done some thing without saying that Muslim Ummah is trying as a dream for over 1000 years. It is some what same condition for Indian Muslims which occured after 1857.
Rise of hindu political order ( with out elaborating), Indians lost but won in way ,for hindus became just long waiting game , they new they will be masters of land. At same time indian muslims got bewildered and insecure. It does not mean its going to be necessarily bad Indian Muslims. It how to both balance the fanaticism of liberal and and fanatics as aggressive conservative fanaticism can be deadly to Pakistan as a nation in Major way.
I will elaborate my feelings and thinking as time permitting.
Good wishes for everybody, there has been rain in Karachi area but still major rains are needed to avoid misery next year.
I am very very busy as I need to take care of things for my abscence up to nov03.
You have not agreed with me but Hindu Ummah is rising and first time attaining power after domination of Muslim power after 1000 years. I am not necessarily useing as negative adjective. As time permits as time available I will put bluntly a rational muslims ( neither secular liberal or Khalifa or old glory fanatics)feeling about rising indian economy, education, churning and more participation of lower castes .
This rising power can only be looked at contempt or disregarded by muslims of Pakistan at their own risk.
It is my contention that even Hindus and Indian muslims are not aware or able to appreciate what is happening. ( as it appears from both hindu and muslim leadership). This has nothing to do with BJP, congress or other regional parties.
I will just give two things and leave ( due to shortage of time to me at this time)
1. Indians were second largest community to migrate to usa in year 2002 and trend is expected to accelerate.
2. A news report from news service.
NEW YORK, July 22 (Reuters) - Two senior officials at
IBM (NYSE:IBM - News), the world`s largest computer
maker, said the company needs to speed its efforts to
move white-collar jobs to India and elsewhere
overseas, The New York Times reported on Tuesday.
The article cited Forrester Research as estimating
450,000 U.S. computer industry jobs could be
transferred overseas in the next 12 years,
representing eight percent of U.S. computer jobs.
In next note I will explain my feelings about rise of ( Unofficial Hindu Ummah- confident and aggressive and global and hindu Muslim relations in India. Again Baniya and brahmins have done some thing without saying that Muslim Ummah is trying as a dream for over 1000 years. It is some what same condition for Indian Muslims which occured after 1857.
Rise of hindu political order ( with out elaborating), Indians lost but won in way ,for hindus became just long waiting game , they new they will be masters of land. At same time indian muslims got bewildered and insecure. It does not mean its going to be necessarily bad Indian Muslims. It how to both balance the fanaticism of liberal and and fanatics as aggressive conservative fanaticism can be deadly to Pakistan as a nation in Major way.
I will elaborate my feelings and thinking as time permitting.
Good wishes for everybody, there has been rain in Karachi area but still major rains are needed to avoid misery next year.
#37 Posted by m_souza on July 22, 2003 9:50:55 pm
How ironic!!
South Indians like Harimau, who did not lose anything because of THEM (invaders and their followers), are the ones who dislike them the most.
North Indians like dost-mittar and even me, whose people did lose a lot to the invasions of the invaders in the form of their temples and culture…whose people converted but who them selves did not ….these northies do not hate them so much and are willing to compromise…forgive and forget…we even remember (obligingly) the good things they did for the country
But those Hindus who were effected the most by the foreign invasions are those who were converted.
They are the Hindus who lost a lot…their plenty, almost everything.. lost their religion……these Hindus who are no more Hindus because of the outside religion, these Hindus who are now Muslims….they are the ones who lost the most but they are the ones who don’t hate the invaders … rather hate themselves(Hindus)…Not only they hate their previous Hindu selves but also defend and love the invaders who wronged them the most…for these very previous Hindus (I mean muslims) have become THEM for the current Hindus
Berry berry Complex matter? It is. That is why we fight.
South Indians like Harimau, who did not lose anything because of THEM (invaders and their followers), are the ones who dislike them the most.
North Indians like dost-mittar and even me, whose people did lose a lot to the invasions of the invaders in the form of their temples and culture…whose people converted but who them selves did not ….these northies do not hate them so much and are willing to compromise…forgive and forget…we even remember (obligingly) the good things they did for the country
But those Hindus who were effected the most by the foreign invasions are those who were converted.
They are the Hindus who lost a lot…their plenty, almost everything.. lost their religion……these Hindus who are no more Hindus because of the outside religion, these Hindus who are now Muslims….they are the ones who lost the most but they are the ones who don’t hate the invaders … rather hate themselves(Hindus)…Not only they hate their previous Hindu selves but also defend and love the invaders who wronged them the most…for these very previous Hindus (I mean muslims) have become THEM for the current Hindus
Berry berry Complex matter? It is. That is why we fight.
#36 Posted by cipram on July 22, 2003 8:54:19 pm
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#35 Posted by cipram on July 22, 2003 8:54:19 pm
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#34 Posted by cipram on July 22, 2003 8:54:19 pm
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#33 Posted by nazarhayatkhan on July 22, 2003 8:54:19 pm
Harish-hyd # 2
The story by the Indian Col was instructive.
In fact, till Zulfqar Bhutto came, the forces here were quite secular - just like India. To keep his seat, he compromised on some issues with Mullas - Bars in the Messes were closed.
The real damage was done by Zia - saying that defence of ideological frontiers was also a job of Army. The Army is now highly religio-politicised - at the lower levels even more so. Its motto is ``Jihad Fe Sabeel Illah`` - war in the name of God. So it is quite messed up and needs reformation something like the Iraqi national guards.
Air Force & Navy have minimum religio-political content.
Only a strong political system can rid Pakistan of these distortions. Having good relations with India is another good way to put this genii back into the bottle - something that is realized by Pakistani politicians - even by people like Fazlur Rehman.
more later.
#32 Posted by cipram on July 22, 2003 8:54:19 pm
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#31 Posted by cipram on July 22, 2003 8:54:18 pm
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