The Zionist In Me

re:#10 by yantric
I also wonder why all these Arabic countries cannot take palestenian refugees so that the problem can be solved for ever.
sridhar

re:#43 by harish_hyd
Actually, no date can be set on the onset of Hinduism as a religion. You said 6000 years. I would say: eternity. Revered Shankaracharya of Kanchi (the one who is no more and was a spiritual giant) used to say that Vedas came with creation. Various sages discovered it at different times. Much of it has been lost.
Hindu religion is also called Sanatana Dharma. Actually, it is not a religion at all; at least not a religion as we understand it (revealed religions like Christianity, Islam etc have a founder, a book, a following and zealots who swear by the book and the prophet). It is a search for truth and has evolved from the ``ritualistic`` traditions to the pinnacle of its achievements in the teachings of Advaita. Most other religions have remained static in that respect. The list of religions that have disappeared from the face of earth after being in wide practice is long. Unless Islam is able to adapt to changing times, a similar fate awaits it.
Sridhar

re:#23 by m_souza
M_souza,
People like Ali have preset notions and are hard to convince. Ali believes his is the only religion that is worth practising. He does not see the harm some of its practitioners are doing worldwide. He keeps talking about Gujarat carnage which was a political expt that was given a religious shape by Modi and his goons. If hindus in India hated muslims as much as to justify a Gujarat carnage on religious grounds alone, then the fire would have spread rapidly and there would have been a much larger violence. Gujarat carnage was a political brinkmanship by Modi. Nemesis will soon catch up with him.

Ali does not ever mention the spontaneous outporing of love and care for the Noor baby that India witnessed recently. This was not political though the case was highlighted by the media. Ali is filled with hatred. Do not waste your time interacting with him. It is India`s tragedy that educated muslims in India like Ali and Syed Shahabuddin are filled so much with hatred.
It is easy for Ali to argue that God is one and ridicule Hindus for worshipping multiple Gods. What that idiot does not realise is that it is the same single God (call him Allah or Ishwar or just Zeta) that hindus worship in different manifestations. Can Ali tell us where his Allah dwells? He cannot. The reason is God is beyond dimensions. If he is between galaxies, he is also between the atoms. He dwells everywhere. The moment we say he is in place X,Y,Z, we are giving a location in space and time to something that is beyond time and dimensionless. Most Hindus realise this: some intuitively, some thr` indoctrination over the ages by sages and seers and some, experientially. That is why Hindus revere all forms and see God where there is beauty. Ali sees God only in his Holy Qoran. Need you keep arguing with this guy?
Sridhar

#44 by ali87 on August 6, 2003 6:39am PT

[er going by the rapid shedding of every established notion of what was hindu looks like they dont need anybodys help. Remember that even christianity exists only as a shell of its former self. Today they apointed a gay Bishop.]

That`s the beauty of Hinduism. It has survived for so long only because it has adapted to every changing situation. Why, even in India, there are differences even among Hindus in the thoughts, philosophy, the culture and traditions that make up Hinduism. But every one calls himself a Hindu. And that`s why Krishna says to Arjuna in the Gita, ``By whatever name and form thou shall call me, I shall respond``. But how would you know, someone who who follows a religion that teaches you to kill anyone who differs in his thought from you, and teaches you to view women as objects of sex? Remember one thing, you, and possibly even your religion will be long gone, but Hinduism will survive. If you need any proof, look at the last 6000 years.

And coming to the church appointing gay Bishops, such a thing already exists among Muslims, what with most Mullahs sodomizing their young students.

[Of course there is a bit of problem on sex and a few other issues but that is a overreaction to pervious oppression of it. We are just a few decades into this so called modern revlution. As they realise their mistakes they will be coming closer to Isalam and what will be left is saying of shadah. After all even the mongols accepted Islam after defeating muslims.]

Oh so Islam is fast modernizing and other religions are regressing? That`s news to me. Anywayz, good luck to you, the follower of the would-be most-modern-religion-in-the-world.

[I dont remeber the 6000 year old date of zenith of a religon which could not even give itself its own name.
As far back as I remeber your co religionsits were going around naked even when muslims came to India first. Why they insisted their right to remain naked in the green and lush gardens of Kerala as late as 150 years back when the british had to force them to cover their bodies]

Hahaha, now you are hitting the heights of absurdity. You would do well to quote some sources before trying to pass off some hearsay as facts.

#43 by harish_hyd on August 5, 2003 11:11pm PT

er going by the rapid shedding of every established notion of what was hindu looks like they dont need anybodys help. Remember that even christianity exists only as a shell of its former self. Today they apointed a gay Bishop.

One does not have to go that far. Other so called modern imporvemnts are but Islam. Today the world follows the path of Islam than it ever did before. Of course there is a bit of problem on sex and a few other issues but that is a overreaction to pervious oppression of it. We are just a few decades into this so called modern revlution. As they realise their mistakes they will be coming closer to Isalam and what will be left is saying of shadah. After all even the mongols accepted Islam after defeating muslims.

I dont remeber the 6000 year old date of zenith of a religon which could not even give itself its own name.
As far back as I remeber your co religionsits were going around naked even when muslims came to India first. Why they insisted their right to remain naked in the green and lush gardens of Kerala as late as 150 years back when the british had to force them to cover their bodies.

#37 by ali87 on August 4, 2003 6:31pm PT

[Do Hindus need to be conqured?? Why just a couple of posts back M_souza himself was sayng that slowly some of the silly rituals are going away. A certain point may come when they may accept Islam on thier own like in Malaysia and Indoneisa?? After all they are quite intelligent and logical.]

Ali mian, you may wait for that ``certain point`` till the cows come home, but your fervent wish will never be answered. Remember, Hinduism has survived for 6000 years now, and Hindus had reached the zenith of civilization at a time when your prophet`s ancestors were roaming around naked in the dreary desert sands of Arabia.

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I enjoyed your article. I agree that it seems that most muslims are obsessed (in one manner or another) with Israel. I know that until a few years ago I was as well. Now while I recognise and condemn the actions of the Israeli government in the occupied territorries (just like I condemned taliban rule in Afghanistan, Saddam Hussein in Iraq or Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe) I try and not let this colour my perceptions of jewish people. I feel that a lot of muslims (at-least the ones that I know) harbour a disdain for all jews that stems from their sence of the injustice of Israeli occupation of Palestine. I think that this is an irrational deduction that most of us make. It is not dissimilar to the irrational deduction that a lot of western people make when they observe the 9-11 attacks and think that all muslims are terrorists.

As the saying goes -- ``hur Firaune raa Moosa`` -- For Every Pharaoh a Moses --

for Pharaoh Bush -- his vanquisher Moses has arrived –

his name is Moses HOWARD DEAN -- the little Vermont`s smart David against the Halfwit Texan Goliath --

HOWARD DEAN -- the ONLY Democrat with a SPINE -- among the Democratic me-to-ist Jelly Fishes..

HOWARD DEAN -- the next PRESIDENT of the United States -- who will bring back Home our precious soiled BOYS -- from the Killing Fields of Occupied IRAQ --

the Moses who will set Iraq free -- give it back to its people under the care of the United Nations --

the only candidate who will restore our uncivilized tarnished image of a Pariah Pharaoh land -- to a once again civilized country leading the civilized nations of the world....

the Bush`s Ship of Fools is to meet the fate of the Titanic -- (the Jamaican mast man Colin Powell is jumping the massa’s ship) -- come November 20004 -- by the DEAN-GRAHAM Iceberg......

HOWARD DEAN -- the new MOSES --

the next President of the United States -- ladies and gentlemen

If you are saying that Zionism is the pathological preoccupation of average Muslim -- it is not.

Muslims don`t blame Zionism for all their ills or misfortunes --

Muslim blaming 911 on the Zionists -- was an exception -- an ultimate act of an ultimate Denial --

they could not find any rational reason for the strangely heinous crime of 911 among the believers -- so they unloaded it on the Zionists and the Jews --

because the Christians could not kill their own, -- the Hindu did not do it -- the Buddhists immolate themselves not others -- the Zoroastrians burn their dead not the living -- so who was left -- of course the `Jew` and the invincible Zionists.

there is nothing praiseworthy about the Zionism or the Zionists -- Zionism was a victim`s version of Fascism -- Fascism For The Persecuted --

it was an imitation of Nazism -- by its overawed victims -- searching for a homeland ONLY-For-the Jewish -- patterned on the Aryan Germany for ONLY the blue eyed-blond hair PURE Aryan Germans --

the Star of David was a plagiarized version of the German Swastika...

it was no surprise that the Mussolini admiring poet Iqbal of 20’s and 30’s was bitten also by the same bug -- the same Fascist version of Islamic Pakistan (the land of the Pure) exclusively for the Mussalman – clean of the Hindu.

Fascism with Nietzsche Superman was a very respectable and popular idea in the 20`s and the 30`s -- Hitler did not appear on the horizon of Western realpolitik out of nowhere --

the Whites -- and the Off-Whites of all shades and texture -- from the British Colonials to the Once-Colonized United States -- they all really believed that the Whites are the People of Superior Race -- destined to civilize and rule the pagan brownies of Asia and the Black Junglis of Africa --

and of course the eternal punching bags of every tyrant in Europe -- the hapless Jews took most of the beatings in Europe and some milder persecution in the US –

Whereas outside the West -- the Asians and the Africans were made to civilize themselves by becoming the brutalized colonies of the Britt’s, the Germans, the Belgians, the Dutch, the French, the Russians, the Americans -- and even of the Pathetic Portuguese --

so the leaders of European Jews realized that only by adopting the ideology, ways and the means of their tormentors -- may be one day they will have their own-- LAND OF THE PURE -- from which they will kick out the Non-Jews -- the Christians and the Muslims -- and like the West of the 20`s and 30`s they will also have their own colonies of inferior races -- the camel driver Arabs -- the stone throwing Palestinians.

so the gist of the story is that for us Muslims -- who are also the illegitimate children of Western Fascism -- always looking for the PURE ISLAMIC LAND -- the Zionists and Zionism may in fact be the objects of ambivalent kinship and envy.... not the pathological preoccupation of a paranoidal adversary .......

#33 by ali87 on August 4, 2003 7:23am PT
“Allah is all forgiving and merciful. “

I didn’t say Allah is non-forgiving or punishing. I said, the holy book, whose each and every word is final for you, says if you don’t do this you will be punished like this… or like that. There are minute details…scary..
God of course is merciful, Allah is merciful so is Hindu God.

And shouldn’t we humans be on the right path without the eternal fear of hell or this or that. I believe that if I harm someone, it will come back to me, in this life only.

“If a man does not believe then whom can he ask forgiveness? So believe and ask forgiveness and show repentence.”
I do believe. Believing doesn’t have to mean to believe only in Allah. That is the point I make. That is where I differ from you. If, as you say, Hindu books also say: “even the vedas say that there is only one creator, one who cant be described who has no end nor beginning... “ then where is the problem? I can pick and choose from the multitudes of paths prescribed by Hindu books because…. the final goal is the same….for you and for me…to meet God or Allah or ….


So, when you say ‘there is no God but Allah’ , does it also mean that if you pray to Hindu God or Brahma, you will not be punished? Do you have the liberty?
I have.
Hinduism doesn’t lay down any tabs or doesn’t label it punishable if we pray to Allah or Christian God or Waheguru. Because eventually, they are all the same, this is what Hinduism says. I can be a Hindu and sometimes go to a masjid or church and pray (probably this liberty was also the reason of conversions). But I don’t have to convert for that. That is the beauty and large heartedness of my religion.
I honestly don’t have any hatred for Islam or any other religion. That is you own misinterpretation.

“Perhaps that is why you have left India (Scarelige!!! It should be Bharat, or Hindustaan.... NOOO.... not even that, even the hindu was given by those Arabs... We are Bharitya and Sanatani)and now are in English Speaking USA. Ahh what self sacrifice..”

If it is Bharat so it is. No amount of shouting by you or anyone will alter the fact. And America is America and Saudi Arabia is Saudi Arabia ….will they let me call it Hindustan or India?
And we are Bhartiya but not necessarily Sanatani. We are Hindu sanatani/arya Samajis, Sikhs, Muslims, Christians, Parsees etc etc..
It is India too and Hindustan. Name doesn’t matter as long as our hearts belong to our land.
If some people live in India but their hearts belong to Arabic culture or to Pakistan and they hate India’s major religion and culture, that is where things go wrong. They have to learn to have a right balance.


#30 by ali87 on August 4, 2003 7:23am PT
”Which is why your leader Bal Thakery said that he is going to form Hindu sucide squads.’

Bal Thakery is again not my favorite person. He is just threatening to start behaving like Muslim jihadists(but nobody lets him). Tit for tat kind of stuff, maybe…though not right. You too must know Hindus have always been called ’cowards’ by even the jihadis for not retaliating and for taking the beating.

“Dont give the silly things about killing of animal. For people who killed 2000 and miamed thousands more in Gujrat you show plenty of concern for animals. More than half of the meat sold in India is eaten by Hindus. Muslims dont throw the sacrifical animal or offer it to Allah it is used for food.”

Who told you I don’t deplore those human killings? Just as I deplore the killings of 9/11…or in Bali…or other jihadi attacks
…In fact, when 60 Hindus were charred to death, then Hindus should have been quiet and patient,. That would have made it a big news in the world media in these 9/11 times. But that would have given a message to the jihadis all over India, incuding Kashmir, that Hindus actually don’t have guts and can take anything from Muslims, like they did most of the times in the history.
So, this new form of Hinduism is only a retaliation, a pent up anger flow. They didn’t follow a book to do so. No sane Hindu approved of these killings.

And ali87, if you feel that sacrificing an animal and later on eating it, is all right, let it be so. That is your dharma and you should follow it. But for me, an innocent animal’s life has the same value as any human being.
You say, more than half of the meat sold in India is eaten by Hindus. I don’t know how much of this is true as there are many many vegetarians in Hindu families even today.
But as I said, there is a revolution now, amongst Hindus. They don’t want to be labelled as simpletons or cowards or lanky vegetarians. Maybe their laid back attitude of non-violence and thier weaknesses were responsible for their being humiliated by invading foreigners in the history. So, they wanna be a stronger race (good looking like Pakis although they can’ t be)
Don’t know how far this will go, though.

#35 by Mantolives on August 4, 2003 1:54pm PT
Do Hindus need to be conqured?? Why just a couple of posts back M_souza himself was sayng that slowly some of the silly rituals are going away. A certain point may come when they may accept Islam on thier own like in Malaysia and Indoneisa?? After all they are quite intelligent and logical.

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Israel and the Secularists, Moderates and Islamists in Pakistan

Those who have access to Herald can read the two brilliant articles on Pakistan-Israel relationship and the chances of recognition. It seems that Israel has maintained a clandestine military and diplomatic presence in Pakistan since the 50s, and it got to the height under the Zia dictatorship... quoting the University of Tel Aviv`s Jeffe institute`s paper, it cites Zia admirers in the Israeli government... it is known that Zia was a vocal critic of Arafat, and often underscored the ideological aspect of Pakistani and Israeli states..

Hence it seems that Israel has had links in Pakistan mostly with the conservative nationalist elements in the army, and the Islamists. The first leader to publicly call for the recognition of Israel a few years ago was an Islamist leader Maulana Ajmal Qadri. Hence a strange new paradigm seems to be emerging... historically secular forces and the forces of the left have been the staunchest opponents of the recognition of Israel by Pakistan, whereas conservative nationalists and Islamists have maintained close clandestine ties with Israel, underscoring ideological similarities. If Pakistan recognizes Israel tommorow, I hope that while underscoring whatever ideological similarities, we also imbibe some of that democratic secular character of Israeli politics. Perhaps the perceived ideological similarity could be used in reverse then.

-Manto

ali87

I hope you don`t entertain the notion that you will somehow reconquer the Hindus and make India darulIslam... ?

#22 by arjun_m on August 3, 2003 5:22pm PT

:) I just like to make people think,