The Last Trumpets

re: Mantolives # 19

You just nailed the problem! Now, the next step is convincing the army of this wisdom.

I have posted this on another thread and I will repeat it again. I honestly think that the 1973 constitution is flawed and needs to be changed. Pakistan would be better served under a presidential form of democracy; but democracy nevertheless.

re: yogirag # 21

Agreed, but the problem is not in the long term. The problem is in the immediate sense. India took some time, but India seems to outgrown the family dynastics of politics, but Pakistan is still caught up in the politics of family dynasties. Another difference is that during the emergency in India, the political institutions were relatively untouched, and in Pakistan, the political institutions have been wiped out. Another big difference is the attitude of the people. Indians agree to the efficacy of democracy, but Pakistanis are still debating the issue. Democracy in Pakistan and its benefits is only limited to the urban centers of Pakistans and is the holy grail of the western educated elites of Pakistan. Democracy has no meaning in the rural areas of Pakistan, where the whim of the feudal lord still is more powerful than the writ of the state.

Democracy in Pakistan and the issue of democracy in Pakistan is not certain, because Pakistani polity has too many built-in contradications and unfortuneately, Pakistani politics are divisive on the national level and we, Pakistanis, have yet to develop a national consensus that transcends our provincial identities.

Ciao

F. R. Khan,

Common Indian feels that democracy, (or whatever that means, you may prove thousands of valid holes on ours) is way to go.

I personally know quite a few people in India now, even though I was too young then. People who were ready to die when our own Indira-amma decided she was good enough for India. So goooood, we needed to look no further. Almost each and every `big wig` today went to jail. Smaller fish lost job. A bigger loss than getting jailed. Indira-amma was forced to change her mind within 2/3 years. She agreed publically she was not good enough.

Let us take a showcase. Corruption (inherent issue with democracy in our part of world). Lalloo Prasad Yadav. If I read it correctly, the guy was in jail, just because he did not agree with Indira-amma and had guts to say so. His wife was carrying then. The couple named the new born MISA, a dastardly law our own know-it-all Amma introduced. There were people in jail, persons with name like Atal Bihari, Lal Krishna, George Fernan... for years.

We do not have perfect democracy. Hell, we are way way away from it. But we kind of like it. We are ready to take it all the way, when some one tells us...thats not good enough.

Question is ... does common pakistani feels democracy is way to go?

If yes, your army with all the nukes, your relgious pandits with all the wisdom, your jameendars with all the land and your baboos with all the power in the world ... will be helpless and hapless to rule over.

If not ...You decide

This will work only on one condition. Give the common people on streets (the idiot Ali and Ameenas) un-hindered power to choose for few cycles. Un-hindered is what is important. Let them choose the Lalloo Prasads. They will do it once, twice .. If and when they taste the blood, it will be 139 million vs rest one million. It will be against almost 140 millions against few corrupts.


Yogiraj Patil

ps ..This is not a personal attack on you or your country. I have no reason to doubt your good intentions. Neither am challnging what you propound. The problem, in nut shell, seems to be of wait period. Democracy is like a tree, It takes time. Far longer than your country seems ready to wait for.

F. R. Khan,

Common Indian feels that democracy, (or whatever that means, you may prove thousands of valid holes on ours) is way to go.

I personally know quite a few people in India now, even though I was too young then. People who were ready to die when our own Indira-amma decided she was good enough for India. So goooood, we needed to look no further. Almost each and every `big wig` today went to jail. Smaller fish lost job. A bigger loss than getting jailed. Indira-amma was forced to change her mind within 2/3 years. She agreed publically she was not good enough.

Let us take a showcase. Corruption (inherent issue with democracy in our part of world). Lalloo Prasad Yadav. If I read it correctly, the guy was in jail, just because he did not agree with Indira-amma and had guts to say so. His wife was carrying then. The couple named the new born MISA, a dastardly law our own know-it-all Amma introduced. There were people in jail, persons with name like Atal Bihari, Lal Krishna, George Fernan... for years.

We do not have perfect democracy. Hell, we are way way away from it. But we kind of like it. We are ready to take it all the way, when some one tells us...thats not good enough.

Question is ... does common pakistani feels democracy is way to go?

If yes, your army with all the nukes, your relgious pandits with all the wisdom, your jameendars with all the land and your baboos with all the power in the world ... will be helpless and hapless to rule over.

If not ...You decide

This will work only on one condition. Give the common people on streets (the idiot Ali and Ameenas) un-hindered power to choose for few cycles. Un-hindered is what is important. Let them choose the Lalloo Prasads. They will do it once, twice .. If and when they taste the blood, it will be 139 million vs rest one million. It will be against almost 140 millions against few corrupts.


Yogiraj Patil

ps ..This is not a personal attack on you or your country. I have no reason to doubt your good intentions. Neither am challnging what you propound. The problem, in nut shell, seems to be of wait period. Democracy is like a tree, It takes time. Far longer than your country seems ready to wait for.

An interesting addition to that debate on the two nation theory...

Kuldip Nayyar on the Two Nation Theory this morning...
http://www.dawn.com/2003/08/09/op.htm#2

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Ferozek,

If there is a problem with the politicians then it should be solved by the politicians and people who elect them and not by the Army.... Ultimately the people will throw up leadership that will be good.

-Manto

re: all

Thanks for your comments. This article was an historic review attempting to trace the roots of the power struggle in Pakistan and to establish a framework towards understanding the LFO crisis. It was not about personalities as much as it was about the institutionalization of the power struggle in Pakistan, within a quadarchy of a parliamentary system, a presidential form of government, the military and the bureaucracy. All these interests consider themselves to be the true heirs of Jinnah and have influenced Pakistan since 1947.

The debate on the role of the army in Pakistan is endless and the aim of the article was not to provide a carte blanche to the army, but to simply fathom its institutional interests. To place the blame on the army in Pakistan acts as a soothing balm for the intellectual soul of the nation and the army has its rightful share of ill doings. However, to place the blame exclusively on the army while excusing the politicans, is only admitting to half the problem in Pakistan. Pakistanis and Pakistan needs to deconstruct the historic myth of 1947 and it needs to understand the events in their proper perspective. This includes the sacrosant ideals of the two nation theory and that theory needs to be questioned openly and critically.

Basically, the prima facie evidence suggests that the two nation theory does not offer a reason, as much as a rationale for the division of India. The theory in itself is inchoate and maybe, that is the explantion why Pakistan has not been able to articulate its ideological raison d` etre. An open debate on the events creating the division of 1947 is sorely needed and such a debate should not be feared as unravelling the creation of Pakistan itself. Unless this question is answered Pakistan will remain the metaphorical embodiment of the words of a song by Johnny Cleeg & Savuka, which said ``who made me here and why?``

Ciao

As in the words of junoon: Pappu yaar tang naa kar!

Jay,

You are just an old man who has issues.

-Manto

manto,

``I want peace with India.``. What a noble soul, trgically with no awareness of the global context. Why there is fight in palestine-israel border, why there is fights in chehniya-russian border, why there is fight in mindanao-philippine border. Above all why pakistanis are in all those conflicts.

Largest global govt expenditure today is focussed on global terror, the costs ranges from increased security every where to the war in iraq. In the global context there is only one ideology fanning the terror, jihad. There had never been peace across jihadic frontiers and it is unlikely to be.

Manto #7

So many pakistanis have written about what should be done, with out ever producing a sociological construct that explains the events of last fifty years. All of the explanations have been based on great man theories, ferzok says that jinnah stuffed the demaocracy, then it is zia who talibanised pakistan, benazir introduced corruption and nawaz perfected it.

The fact is that, the great men only symbolises the values of the pak society, and even after the great men vanish into their graves, the system they introduced flourishes, proving that there was widespread acceptances of what they did. Take the case of mushy, he made so many fundamental changes to the constitution, but did not dare to touch the blasohemy laws, the hoodood and honor killing.

At least my social constructs of pakistanis as a darwenian selection of carpet baggers who wnet to collect the assets of the hindus who left represent the corruption foundations of pakistan. The rest were believers of TNT, muslims cannot live with others are the founders of jihadic path that pakistan is taking today.

If one accepts these social constructs, one can take some defenitive policy actions to correct them.
For ferzok and others, it is just another article, not an attemot to understand underlying values of pak society.

Oh... That One Indian city?

Wo hai Mumbai!

Nazar,

I want peace with India. Over time I have come to love Indians. I also realize that this feeling of mutual cozy lovey doveyness has probably developed because of separation. Do you think Noor Fatima would have a ghost of a chance in India had she not been a Pakistani...

Pakistan and India should be friends and brothers... we should have open borders. Indians should come to Pakistan and Pakistanis should go to India... While we make our borders more permeable, I think there is no need to create a Unitary political center ... a unitary political center between Pakistan and India would mean competition... it would mean political rivalry... it would mean chaos. Instead let us proceed on the basis of two sovereign states at peace with each other underscoring cultural similarities (just as they underscored cultural differences pre-1947) ... and these relations should come before we reopen the issue of Kashmir as civilized nations... Let us both India and Pakistan decide to put Kashmir on a hold.


Toronto, Montreal, Seattle, New York and Washington, all have roughly the same culture... Stuka said when he looked at Karachi it looked like any Indian city... actually he was wrong.. Karachi looks a lot like ONE indian city... The point is that Pakistan and India should have a Canada-United States type relationship. This is atleast my vision of India-Pakistan relations (which I will promote through people to people contact on my visit to India soon)... You will realize that this vision will have the most success. Had India been truly forthcoming in its recognition of Pakistan, and had the partition not been marred by violence, Pakistan and India would have been much like what I want them to be... But nothing has changed... We might still achieve the ideal...

-Manto

Manto # 7

I respect your sincererity and honesty. You also have a strong sense of patriotism and a touch of emotion.

May be I am too cold-blooded and can completely detach myself when analysing events. And also may be what I am saying is a little before time.

But I remain convinced that a good relationship with India (which has a historical, geograhical and cultural basis) is natural and fighting nature is invariably counter productive. It can take time and it can follow any route.

Jinnah played a historical role. No one can deny it. Similarly, Mujeeb played a historical role in creation of Bangladesh. The history has yet to give its verdict whether break up of India or the break up of Pakistan worked well for the common man.

My patriotism and loyalty is for the common man - who has no water, no electricity, no jobs, no schools, in fact, not the life that he deserves to live. Only peace and the right course can guarentee him that.

You will see that the recent Military-Mulla alliance will result in a backlash in time to come and bring the events closer to what I said.

Nasah,

``the entire responsibility for the Prostitution of Democracy in Pakistan rests on the shoulders of -- ONLY ONE and ONE -- Lecherous CLIENT -- the Army -- the Army -- the Army -- the Army -- and the Army``

Thankyou thankyou thankyou thankyou thankyou :) I thought I must thank you as many times as you mentioned the name of the lecherous immoral madam of all whores.

1958, 1977 and 1999... all three times the Democracy was doing just fine. Infact in 1999 Pakistan`s democracy had shown its true liberal and South Asian character with Senate shooting down the stupid 15th Amendment... yet the army still choked it again...

Utterly depressing...

-Manto

it is a little facetious to blame Mohammed Ali Jinnah for the failure of democracy in Pakistan --

He was indeed a man under the sentence and a man in a hurry -- an irreligious secular man who got caught in the bear hug of a religion that seemingly looked like an easy TEMPORARY blanket -- but turned out to be -- a bearish blanket -- that wouldn`t let him go --

if I may be excused for being a little too polite -- the entire responsibility for the Prostitution of Democracy in Pakistan rests on the shoulders of -- ONLY ONE and ONE -- Lecherous CLIENT -- the Army -- the Army -- the Army -- the Army -- and the Army............and of course -- on an array of its EVER Obliging -- Political Pimps of Pirzadas.......

And while we are on the topic of breaking and smashing photos, and idols... here is an interesting story that shows the character of the man who is being so shamelessly the target of abuse on this board... There was a beautiful statue of Gandhiji in Karachi which was threatened by the Muslim mob in 1947. One day Jinnah driving by saw the statue... he had seen it many times but he grew alarmed that day. He immediately ordered that the statue be protected and taken to a safe place. Today that statue, thanks to Jinnah`s quick action , stands in the Indian High commission in Islamabad.

Today, there are people who are suggesting we deface ourselves by smashing the photos of the man who willed this country into creation with nothing but popular support from the masses. (Amazingly the suggestion has been already made by the Mullahs before) Will the Mahmud Ghaznavis never come to an end in our god foresaken country?

-Manto

PS: Why is it that every fanatic speaks of smashing photos ? Mullahs in Iran, taliban in Afghanistan, nazis in germany, fascists in italy and Mullahs running amok on the billboards of Pakistan... and now this advice from our resident Paki-Basher aka card carrying member of the neo-nazi party.

God save Pakistan from Photo-smashers, iconoclasts, and neo-Mahmud Ghaznavis in reverse.

This Post should be read in conjunction with my previous 3 posts.

FerozeK

By making statements like the one that Jinnah did not have a constituency which is an assertion inaccurate (Read K B Sayeed`s closing remarks in his famous book) you allow for the kind of comments made by Jay. I don`t understand this inherent need for self-effacement. Self criticism should be genuine and not done for the express desire to win brownie points.


Jay,

If you believe any of what you wrote, I really pity your sense of objectivity. It is quite sad to read such stuff churned out by any human being. Sadly I still do think of you as that... a human being... which is the part that hurts ...



Nazarhayat,

No points in what ifs. And it is sad that you have chosen to belittle the contribution of the Muslim League. I caution against being carried away in the flood of self effacement. The solution doesn`t lie in reunification .... that is where people like you make the biggest mistake. To attempt any such thing would be a folly of humongous proportions, and an utter waste of time, not to mind demeaning to us as a people for being the `budhus who have come back Instead choose a future based on the idea of a civlian democratic modern and secular Pakistan.


I don`t have the time to throw around ideas which would make me look objective to the Indians. I am sure as a self respecting people they will respect me as an honorable Pakistani Nationalist who wants what is best for his country... barring a few like Jay but then every self respecting people have a few bad eggs. I don`t share the author`s pessimism, and his view of things in air tight compartments. As per my posts 2,3 and 4, I think I have provided enough evidence to show that the author`s views don`t necessarily follow a chain of logical events, or historical facts. Unlike the author I am in no mood to tear down the only icon of Modernity, Secularism and Democracy in Pakistan. Unlike him, my view of Jinnah is holistic. I will continue to fight for a democratic secular and modern Pakistan as Jinnah had envisaged. My shield, my weapon, and my ammunition against the Mullah... is Mohammed Ali Jinnah... I would be a fool to disarm myself.

Even the Indians have a choice... they can support people like me who are awake to necessity of healing Pakistan`s wounds, or they can join people like Ferozek (and Military Mullah Alliance) who are killing Pakistan through small dosages of self pity and poison.


-Manto