Dislodging a Dictator

...what is the number of nuclear bombs of india and pakistan....and the cost factor for the development of the same please...any body?

``one mujahid equalling one Hindu``
in the previous post should read ``one mujahid eqals ten Hindus``.

rozaiba:
I think that you are being a bit hard on faisauno. If I am not mistaken, Pakistan under Ayub did forge ahead of many East Asian economies. Until early 90s it also did not have too much problem attracting capital. MNCs who invested in Korea or China would have done the same in India or Pakistan. They dont go where uncle sam tells them but wherever they can make a buck or two. They didn`t go to India, first because India didn`t let them in and, later, because India was deficient in infrastructure; lately though they find pastures green in India and are flocking there. And the same markets which were available to Korea and China are available to Indians and Pakistanis too.
Pakistan will remain a pariah for international capital until it gets rid of its image of an unstable country populated by jehadis, madrassas, mad mullahs and a scheming ISI. And that image precedes Musharraf and is not going to change just because the military goes back to the barracks. The biggest problem with Pakistanis is to not accept the fact that they cannot seek parity with a country with seven times its population and eight times its economy, either militarily or in tems of international weight, and so keep up coming with their hairbrain schemes of strategic depths, permanent alliances and one mujahid equalling one Hindu.

=== Interact Filtered ===
view this users filtered interacts

Manto:

...welcome back...have nothing useful to add to the `discussions` here...we are all regurgitating our oft expressed views...this is the way i feel today...

...t

ylh,

Nice to know youre back with the same `ol piss & vinegar that we`ve missed.
I must say you have matured & come back to reality about Pak.

Btw, if that rotten Bihari Saxena ``touches`` you...something is not right in this universe....

I agree with your sentiments re the Pakistani army....but your solutions?
BB?!...she`s cute an all..but c`maaan!!

What about Imran?
Now why in the HELL did his party perform so badly in the elections?!
I dont think there is a Pakistani alive who isnt proud of Imran..let alone..``never heard of him``!!
Seems like the this-E-that & this-UL-that types are prefered by the awam over Imran!
Pakistani awam HAD an alternative

---

but they made their choice clear...even in this jury-rigged election..

faisalsuno:

you`re a good kid. i apologize if i was rude.

what i said in my last post to you was basic economics. free access to market and capital are essential to growth. be it china or israel- both have `mfn` type status` and tremendous inflow of capital. and for countries like korea and japan and germany, america guaranteed their security. for them, it was ok to leave their security in full control of america. like it or not, uncle sam`s good books count.

pakistan has NOTHING of this sort. so isn`t it logical for you to admit you were totally wrong in your comparison? HOW else do you see Musharaf being the great reformer you dream him to be? Maybe he has a magic wand somewhere up his asss and he`s going to surprise everyone with hocus pocus? man, these faujiz are so full of themselves. makes you wonder (though one shouldn`t) WHY Pakistan can`t have REAL dictators and REAL tyrants- dammit REAL MEN- rather than these meow meow pusssy cats.

ps) if you cannot back arguments, then i`m afraid i will be lead to believe that pakistani business schools teach far superior economics and finance than the ones you went to in the west. and i further suggest you transfer. LUMS applications are available on line.

vereesh #80: Bhabi Jan, as she is still known in Pakistan, (or Reena Roy, as she is known in India) was dumped by Mohsin Khan (or maybe she dumped him). Mohsin Khan is (used to be) a good looking guy. He even made it into a few Indian movies, as an actor (courtesy of Bhabi Jan). I doubt Saleem Malik would have a chance with any Indian actress.

So Saleem Malik is still in contention.

You need to remember that Saleem Malik has the added advantage of being convicted in Pakistan. And if he happens to be secular also, then he may be the next Bhutto, as far as many of our friends on this site are concerned. The only thing he hasn`t been able to accomplish is an international conviction. I think he had a chance for that, if the PCB had not convicted him before the goras could get to him. If he had an international conviction under his belt, then one would have to say, he is the next Fatima Jinnah.

To reach the same levels, Miandad would first have to become a thief in Pakistan, then in Switzerland or England. Added to that, Miandad, apparently, performs wazoo before he goes in to bat. This would mean he is not secular enough. And thus cannot become the next great leader of Pakistan.

You need to remember the golden rule: A person can be a thief, a crook, a money launderer, corrupt, inefficient, a dictator, a usurper, a lier, a double-talker, a hypocrite, as can her spouse. But as long as she is secular, she is great. After all, the only quality Fatima Jinnah and her brother had were that they were secular. All their other qualities were not important.

dost-mittar:

i agree with your analysis of south asian countries. settling border disputes and focusing in on development is critical. at the same time, it was their ability to secure capital that lead to their development. one reason (it is said) the economies crashed in 97 was due to bad loans which were the result of runaway borrowing due to easy access to capital.

pakistan is absolutely nothing compared to the east asian economies. the other thing going for the east asian economies was a threat of communism- a system america felt far more threatened by than some rag tag elements from caves.

it could be like them but the options are hard to stomach by the fauji freaks.

dost-mittar #99:

Are you saying Musharaf is a PUPPET who can`t piss without asking uncle sam????!!!!


Faisalsuno:

My post to you was apparently lost. I apologize if I came off rude in the before that.

However, you will need to explain yourself by stating just WHY you insist on comparing Musharaf’s Pakistan and Korea. There is no comparison as I pointed out earlier. Pakistan does not have free access to capital, or to the American market- requirements FAR more important than ANY leadership. Israel and China both had the above two. Nor is Defense of the country guaranteed by America. So WHERE is the comparison?

If you cannot answer then I will have no choice but to assume that Pakistani business schools teach far better economics and finance than the western ones you go to. In that case, I will have to suggest you transfer to Pakistan. Applications for LUMS are available on line.

SameerJB, rozaiba:
Whether or not BB or NS would have done the same thing that PM did on 9/11 is the `what if` of history that can only be speculated upon. My speculation is based on the fact that a politician cannot take an about-turn on a matter of critical national interest without taking his colleagues into confidence. In the case of Pakistan, a prime minister also had to consult the military on such matters. A political leader is not as unfettered as a dictator. The comparison with Kargil is not quite valid. NS was running from pillar to post for someone to get him out of his predicament. He had drawn a blank from the Chinese, the Indians had refused to meet him even for a brief meeting on his way back from Beijing. He desperately needed a fig leaf and went Clinton to provide him one. And if he is to be believed, Musharraf wanted him to do the same thing.

Regarding the probability of OBL being in Pakistan on 9/11, I think you or someone else had mentioned earlier that the credit goes to the bureaucrats` sane counsel. The bureaucrats would have given the same advice regarless of whether their masters were wearing an achkan or a khaki.

rozaiba, the big difference between Korea and Pakistan is that Korea patched up its hostility towards Japan and let the US take care of its defense against the North. But Korea is not an exception: Taiwan, Singapore, China, Chile have all shown that an authoritarian regime, focussed on development, often helps take the necessary but unpopular decisions to shorten the time span required to prepare the ground for a take-off stage. But the regime must be committed to development. Pakistan and North Korea are examples of authoritarian regimes that are committed more to their self-preservation than of the good of their countries. If Musharraf had taken steps to end hostility with India and give up the Pak army`s pie-in-the-sky dreams, things could be different. To be fair to him though, those pie-in-the-sky dreams are not restricted to the Pak army alone.

In any case, I have already withdrawn my support to Musharraf. I think he has outlived his usefulness. But I don`t think Pakistan is ready for another politician yet.

Roohi/Subroto:

``Yes of course everyone uses it bhai - but imagine using it in a derogatory way to describe an Indian Politician in a discussion about Indian Democracy ?!``

Ofcourse yes. I agree with you. I misunderstood earlier in the sense that I thought the word itself was being phased out. I would say Subroto, that Jamadar etc are still used. Safai Karamchari is not used outside of MCD circles.

``You`re old enough to remember Mandal right ? ``

Hain?? I am shocked!! You did not read my article published on Chowk about a year or so back? Please do a search on Parag Vohra, you`ll get two. The first one is about Mandal..

HisExceleency#71
Have you been talking to Romair again?:-)

I used to support Musharraf. I`m not so sure now. As the cliché goes, the three pillars of Pakistan are Allah, Army and Amreeka [Actually there is a fourth pillar, bureaucracy but it will support any structure, so it doesn`t count!]. Until last year, Musharraf was supported by all three pillars. Now, Allah`s men demand a pound of his flesh and it seems that the most he is willing to give as of now is less than the least they will accept. It seems like he also no longer has the unflinching support of the army and murmurs against him seem to be getting louder; Gen. Aziz would not have spoken up so brazenly unless he had significant support in the ranks, unless it was part of Musharraf`s gameplan. That leaves only one pillar which is America, and that too is unreliable. In fact, the support of Musharraf is limited to Bush and the White House. The American think tanks, policy experts and the media have turned not only against Pakistan but also against Musharraf who is regarded as untrustworthy and playing games. This is not a healthy scenario for Pakistan. It means that Musharraf is totally vulnerable to pressure from Bush and has very little room to manouevre. When Bush tells him to jump, he has to say `how high?`. This is not a heatlthy situation for any country to be in. So, let Pakistan muddle through!

Romair # 4

Comparing the few millions NS and BB steal with the several billion spent on the Pakistani military is quite stupid. If you impose Taliban law on people of Pakistan the economic damages would dwarf any looting BB or NS would have done. This is a classic example of Pakistani leadership you promote.

Corruption has to be fought. But to make corruption the main focus of Pakistan`s problems is quite silly. Italy, Japan and South Korea have corrupt political establishments. It has not stopped them.

Naqshbandi Sahib

Your religious parties are beneficiaries of army`s rigging of the elections. It is a known fact that these elections were manipulated to favor a certain configuration which would allow the Army to go on.

Since when did you start speaking on the behalf of the common Pakistani?

-Manto

Harish

1958 President Iskandar Mirza abrogated the constitution of Pakistan. CinC Gen. Ayub Khan was made the Prime Minister of Pakistan. That is where rot really starts.

-Manto