Dislodging a Dictator

#174
Harimau,
First graduate of Thomson college passed earlier than 1850s. Perhaps we can leave this discussion at that point.

I am surprised by your reference to ``Soyasauce`` . I do not see any of his posts in this thread. Why are you so pissed off? For all you know, I may be a bania!!

Ref friend #173

[Please confirm facts on College of Engineering, Guindy - It should be 1894, not 1794.]

I quoted verbatim from Anna University`s website. (Guindy Engineering College is the nucleus of Anna University.)

I did say that the first graduate from Guindy was in the 1850s. But the school itself was established earlier to train surveyors, etc. Its students worked on the Great Trigonometrical Survey of India directed and conducted by George Everest. I will have to look in my copy of the book `The Great Arc` to find out when the survey started. The website that is trying to raise some funds for the College says that the college is 205 years old.

As a further aside to that raving lunatic Soysauce, the first graduate of Guindy Engineering College -- as reported by S. Muthiah in his columns -- looks to be a brahmin from his name.... proving his pet theory that brahmins are the cause of all evil in Tamil Nadu. This of course is lapped up by Chowkwallahs from the wrong side of the border who believe that the brahmin-bania complex is the root of all evil. Soysauce is ingratiating himself with Chowk editors by hiding the fact that he is most likely to be a bania.

Harimau #170
Thomson Engineering college was first affiliated to University of Calcutta. Than it got moved to Agra University.

From http://www.iitr.ernet.in/about/heritage/index.shtml
``The Roorkee College was established in 1847 AD as the First Engineering College in the British Empire. The College was renamed as The Thomason College of Civil Engineering in 1854. It was given the status of University by Act No. IX of 1948 of the United Province (Uttar Pradesh) in recognition of its performance and its potential and keeping in view the needs of post-independent India. Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, the first Prime Minister of India, presented the Charter in November 1949 elevating the erstwhile college to the First Engineering University of Independent India.``

From http://www.becs.ac.in/index.php
Established in 24th November 1856 occupying three rooms in Writer s Building to meet the requirement of trained Engg. personel for Public Works Department as Civil Engineering College,was affiliated to the Calcutta University in May 1857.

Please confirm facts on College of Engineering, Guindy - It should be 1894, not 1794.

an interesting excerpt from :``Dilli Hunnoz Door Ast`` by Pakistani Columnist MK Bandara on a visit to India:

``If there be unceasing fanatic for greater Indo-Pakistan cordiality hopefully leading to some roadmap of an agreement, it is the veteran well-known columnist, formerly from Sialkot, Mr Kuldip Nayar. We appear to be in agreement on various points but a disagreement towards the end.

The points of agreement run as follows:

* Pakistan must appreciate that no division of J&K on a communal basis would be acceptable to any government in Delhi or public opinion in India.

* India must appreciate that acceptance of the Line of Control as an international border in Kashmir would not be acceptable to any government in Islamabad or public opinion in Pakistan.

* Pakistan must concede that the sponsorship of terrorism right from 1965 has proved a failure; it is counter-productive and has retarded Pakistan`s economic and political growth. In objective analysis, terrorism in Kashmir has proved far more costly to Pakistan than to India. It must take certifiable steps to stop cross-border terrorist movement.

* India must concede that the terror of the Indian army and the `disappearances`, torture in custody, rape and other excesses have spawned and promoted terrorism - both Kashmiri and non-Kashmiri - and provided fuel to Islamic militancy.

* India must appreciate that Kashmiri Muslims are by and large an alienated lot. The onus is on India to bring about real changes to rectify the situation.

* Pakistan must appreciate that there are 150 million Muslims in India, and Pakistan`s Kashmir-centric policy militates against Muslim interests in India, promotes communal hatred and generally makes life more difficult for the Muslims in India.

In the context of the above assumptions, which I think we agreed upon, an interim solution lies in India implementing Article 370A of its Constitution in letter and in spirit on a non retractable basis by giving the J&K the autonomy promised by Article 370A of the Constitution.

Likewise Pakistan should follow suit in Azad Kashmir by giving it equal autonomy.

The Muzaffarabad-Srinagar road should be opened and the two state assemblies should have a joint session once a year. Trade and traffic into the respective parts of Kashmir held by India and Pakistan be controlled by the respective Kashmir governments.

The intention of these steps is a conscious attempt to blur the rigidities of the Line of Control. Autonomy under Article 370A will, of course, remain a dead-letter as long as the strength of the Indian army is not reduced to pre-1988 levels and Delhi`s governor no longer functions as a `viceroy`.

Where I differ with my friend Kuldip is that autonomy should lead eventually to the independence of the Valley.``(MK Bhandara in DAWN)

This is the most viable solution of all .........minus the Independencece.

friend#165
Thanks. My late Mamoo did his diploma in engineering from Roorkee in 1920 or thereabouut.

Ref friend #167

[First few engineering colleges in India were started to train manpower for railway and canal projects.]

True.

[Thomson Engineering College in Roorkee was started in 1847 to train overseers for Ganga Canal project. Later this college became Roorkee Enginnering College, University of Roorkee and in 2001, IIT Roorkee. Engineering College at Jadavpur and at Pune are also among first few engineering colleges in India.]

Without questioning the facts about Roorkee`s date of founding, I must point out that the earliest British settlements were at Calcutta, Madras and Bombay, and the first British institutions were set up in these three Presidencies. Bengal Engineering College, Sibpur had its start in 1843. (``Promted by the idea of meeting requirements of trained engineering personnel for the Public Works Department, the then council of Education, Bengal, decdided to open Civil Engineering classes and a proffesorship in Civil Engineering was created at the Hindu College, Calcutta, in 1843-44. A college of Engineering was started by the name of Civil Engineering College on November 24, 1856, in the premises of the Writer`s Building, Calcutta.`` - http://www.calonline.com/oncampus/oncampus_cal/becollege/bec_about.htm)

In his columns in `The Hindu` (``Madrasscape`` and ``Madras Miscellany``), S. Muthiah retraces the history of the city of Madras. This has not yet been published in book form so I don`t have access to the information but I remember that the College of Engineering at Guindy (Madras) was also one of the first engineering/construction schools founded in India. (``The University was formed by bringing together and integrating two well-known technical institutions in the city of Madras,

College of Engineering, Guindy (CEG)(1794)

Madras Institute of Technology , Chrompet (MIT)(1949)

and three Technological Departments of the University of Madras.

Alagappa College of Technology (ACT)(1944)

School of Architecture and Planning (SAP)(1957)`` - http://www.annauniv.edu/campuses.html).

I do remember that the first graduate (in Civil Engineering) was actually in the 1850s though the college seems to have had an earlier start in 1794. However, the ``three technological departments`` being listed as ACT and SAP does prove that the Sangilikkaruppans and Sudalaikkannus of Tamil Nadu cannot count beyond the number 2 and this might explain the predominance of Tamilians in the IT field which is based on binary computers.

More on the Fatima Jinnah`s murder alluded to in the article:

http://www.dawn.com/weekly/cowas/cowas.htm

Jinnah`s sister, Fatima


By Ardeshir Cowasjee

There once was a man - Mohammad Ali Jinnah - who by the sheer force of an indomitable will carved out a country wherein his brethren could live and thrive in peace and prosperity. He did it without mounting a single hunger strike, without spending a single day in jail. He worked hard, and he lived well according to his own taste and style.

Three days before the Dominion of Pakistan came into being, on August 11, 1947, over half a century ago, Jinnah addressed the members of his constituent assembly and, clearly and firmly, he told them that religion was a matter between a man and his God and was `not the business of the State`.

A man of perception, having seen the beginnings of Pakistan, shortly before he died, he predicted that each successive government of the new nation would prove to be worse than its predecessor. History has shown how right he was.

Fatima, one of Jinnah`s sisters, a dentist by profession, never married and abandoning her profession decided to tag along with her ambitious and able brother, a widower. She was a parsimonious woman, eternally at war with the world. She had no influence over her brother`s political life and had little to do with the making of Pakistan, with its subsequent breaking, or with its mythical ideology. Someone once dubbed her madar-i-millat, and the appellation stuck.

Now, after reading the July 22 front-page news of Jadoogar of Jeddah Sharifuddin Pirzada`s startling disclosure that Fatima`s death was not a natural death but, in conformation with the rumours that arose 36 years ago, in 1967, when she was found dead in her bed, there had been foul play, I did what we all do in Pakistan and `rushed`, not to the scene of the crime, but to the telephone and rang Sharifuddin. What are you pulling out of your hat this time, I asked him, by threatening to reveal `all` on August 14? The press had got it wrong, he said.

When leaving a conference held on Fatima`s life and doings in Islamabad on the 21st, he was waylaid by reporters who badgered him about the old and set rumours relating to her death, and demanded that he come out with the truth. So he did - the truth to the best of his knowledge, based on what he had been told or had learnt (as he was not in Pakistan when she died).

He was told some days after her death by her nephew, Akbar Pirbai, who had arrived in Karachi from Bombay, that he was convinced that his aunt had been murdered by a disgruntled servant, that he wished to meet President Ayub Khan and request that an enquiry be held. A meeting was arranged, and Ayub Khan, sensibly, considering the bitterness that had followed and persisted after Fatima`s defeat in the 1964 elections, and considering that emotions run high in Pakistan at the slightest excuse, suggested that nothing be done.

Those who found her dead were obviously as sensible as was President Ayub Khan and wisely let it be known to the people that Fatima had died a natural death.

Sharifuddin said he would send me a report on the incident written by the then commissioner of Karachi, Syed Darbar Ali Shah, who in 1983, some sixteen years later, at Sharifuddin`s request, had put on paper his recollections of her death and funeral. He would also send an excerpt from a book. `Fatima Jinnah` written by Dr Agha Hussain Hamadani, of which the National Book Foundation has recently published the English translation. (Anyone interested who wishes to be further confused can get a copy of Darbar Ali`s note, written in typical bureaucratese, from my friend the Jadoogar, the weaver of magic spells.)

News travelled at a relaxed pace in those far off days of 1967. Darbar Ali was in his office when he was rung up by his sister, who had been rung up by Lady Sughra Hidayatullah (widow of jolly old Sir Ghulam Hussain affectionately known to his friends as `Sir Sahib`), who had been visited by Fatima`s dhobi, who had been to Mohatta Palace that morning, rung the doorbell, and had received no response. Lady H and the dhobi hurried back, she managed to get into the house, and they had found Fatima dead. Darbar Ali immediately rang the Deputy Inspector General of Police for further information, only to find that he also had not heard the news.

They both `rushed` to Mohatta Palace where they found a crowd had collected. The press was already on the scene, as were Fatima`s family doctors, Colonels Shah and Jafar. Darbar saw the body on the bed, covered by a sheet, with her face exposed. He described it: ``I found the agony of death clearly visible on the noble face. Her hair was also in disarray and her neck veins looked abnormally rigid.`` He confirmed that the pronouncement of the two doctors, highly respected and trusted, that she had died a natural death ``was a great blessing for the preservation of peace in Karachi.... Had it not been so or had any suspicion arisen about the cause of her death at the time of her funeral procession, there might have been widespread riots and unnecessary bloodshed.``

But, as wrote Darbar Ali: ``In spite of the pronouncements of the doctors, many still suspected the actual cause of her death and thought that she had either been strangulated or done to death through some violent means. Since her cook disappeared at the time of her death many accused him of the dastardly act...... Some ladies who happened to be the friends of the deceased also started a whispering campaign that they had noticed scars on her neck on closer examination. They further alleged that they had also seen marks of violence and even blood on her body.``

No enquiry was held. The mystery of the missing cook was never solved.

Hamadani, in his book, recounts : ``In the year 1971, some information about Miss Jinnah`s death surfaced. These were exposed by a team of washers of the dead body. It consisted of 67-year old Haji Kalloo and his associates. They indicated that: on her body there were a number of deep wounds; her body had numerous blows; on her neck there appeared a wound, four inches in length; her knees were also wounded; swelling was visible on her cheek; her body was cramped, having blue colour.``

Long ago, I was told by a relative (by marriage) of Jinnah`s sister Mariam Bai, who I happen to know, that on the morning of Fatima`s death Lady Hidayatullah rang his mother, and told her that there was no response when the Mohatta Palace servants rang the doorbell. Lady H said she would like to be picked up and they would together go and see what was happening. They somehow managed to get into the house, went up to the bedroom, and found what they assumed to be a sleeping Auntie Fatima. She was lying on her bed, undisturbed and peaceful, but, on closer inspection, dead. She had apparently died in her sleep.

There are the two conflicting accounts. Take your pick, as we will never know the truth, truth being foreign to the ethos of Pakistan and its handlers and mishandlers. There will be no earth shaking truthful disclosure on August 14, or on any other day, by the Jadoogar or by anyone else

PM,

It is on the record that he became an Ithna Ashari Shiite.

Also isn`t it a bit ironic that while the court is claiming that Jinnah and his sisters were sunni, his sisters had themselves signed affidavits saying that they were shiite? Isn`t that evidence enough?

-Manto

Dost-mittar#166
Some more trivia for you
First few engineering colleges in India were started to train manpower for railway and canal projects.
Thomson Engineering College in Roorkee was started in 1847 to train overseers for Ganga Canal project. Later this college became Roorkee Enginnering College, University of Roorkee and in 2001, IIT Roorkee. Engineering College at Jadavpur and at Pune are also among first few engineering colleges in India.

Harimou#155

Thnaks for the detailed reply.

``Established as College of Engineering in 1961, the Institute was later declared an Institution of National Importance under the ``Institutes of Technology (Amendment) Act, 1963`` and was renamed ``Indian Institute of Technology Delhi``.``
There was an Engineering College in Delhi even during the 50s. Some of my high school class fellows went to that College and got their degree from it. It was located at Kashmiri Gate in old Delhi.

Romair:
The knowledge of the Beloved Prophet sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam is all-encompassing and second only to that of Allah`s Knowledge. Thus the Prophet taught some of this knowledge to the Companions who, because they were taught directly by the Master himself (alayhisalatusalam) had much more ilm than any latter-day alim. The Sahaba then taught the tabi`iin who taught the taba- taba`iin and so on...

Being a shepherd or a business doesn`t mean one can`t be a professional alim either! Hazrat Ibn Abbas --the Prophet`s relation, was a Companion and yet he was known as Tarjuman al Qur`an --the Exegete of the Qur`an because his knowledge of qur`anic interpretation was amongst the greatest of the Sahaba. Hazrat Ali used to sell wood in the market place to earn a living but whose knowledge of Islam is higher than his? He was a greater alim than anyone! So it is your knowledge which is faulty. Imam Abu Hanifa--one of the greatest alims of all time--a professional maulvi par excellence if you will--the Father of Fiqh--also was a succesful cloth merchant. Having a profession to earn a living and being a professional alim are not mutually exclusive. Traditionally ulama did not charge for giving lessons on Islam so they had to earn their daily bread somehow too...

Please read the following short excerpt of sayings from the Prophet alayhisalatusalam about the Qur`an again:

In the following hadiths Rasulullah, peace be upon him, said, ``Those who give meaning to the Qur`an without having the necessary qualifications will be punished in hell,`` and ``Those who say something as hadith without knowing it, will be punished in hell,`` and ``Those who give meaning to the Qur`an according to their own opinion will be punished in hell.`` The corrupt persons (Ahl al-bidat) who recite or quote hadiths or verses of the Qur`an in order to prove their corrupt paths are of this kind.

****
Do you have the following qualifications Romair?

Interpretation (Tafsir) should be done according to the principles of transmission (Nakl). In order to perform interpretation, one should be knowledgeable about the following fifteen kinds of knowledge (Ilm): language, dialect or words (Lugat), syntax (Nahv), grammar (Sarf), etymology (Ishtikak), meaning (Ma`ani), explanation (Bayan), ornament of speech (Badi`), reading (Kira`at), methodology of religion or bases of religion (Usul-i din), Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh), reason or cause of the revelation of the verses of the Qur`an (Asbab-i nuzul), the one which cancels a previous verse (Nasih) and canceled verse (Mansuh), methodology of Islamic jurisprudence (Usul-i fiqh), Hadith, and knowldege of spiritual heart (Ilm al-qalb.) It is not permissible (Jaiz) for one who does not know these subjects to make interpretation of the Qur`an.

****
All those you mentioned including the 4 Rightly Guided Khalifas had all this and a whole lot more we cannot even imagine!

Drat! Step away from this place for a week and see what you miss! (with apologies to temp :-) )
Manto,
Don`t worry yourself so much over Romair, although he may well be, as you say, a `counterfiet coin`. In own estimation, he`s jsut terribly disillusioned with politics, and with the slowdown in the IT sector, obviously has more time on his hands than he can spend fruitfully. But give him this much.. he, like you and I, are committed to a better, more democratic (eventually), humane Paksitan. That he does not see the dangers in what he proposes is another matter.
Shit, maybe I really was meant to be a frikkin priest or somethin`!
Romair, I thought I, and Manto, and dost, already pointed out to you why BB is about as secular as Musharaf is a democrat, yet you go on taking pot shots, as in #116, and I think somewhere earlier too. Man, you`re only losing credibility!
I think the point of the article is simple enough: For all those hoping for an end to dictatorship and the beginnings of any sort of democracy in Pakistan, BB is the logical choice, given her mass support.
I may not like the idea at the moment. I think Mushy needs to be given some more time to clean things up. Those committed democrats always arguing that democracy wasn`t given a real chance-- that time would weed out the bad apples and bring about democratic awareness -- might perhaps be so generous as to apply the same logic of `time healing` to Mushy`s regime.
Why? Well, as someone said ealier, living in Karachi at least, there are tangible signs of improved law and order, and (this IS important) of a reduction in police harrassment, since this regime took over. The anomie that preceded, what with the fascism of the MQM and other `elected` parties, was a good argument of why democracy might not be the best option at the moment. (can you spell i-n-f-r-a-s-t-r-u-c-t-u-r-e?) To those who say that those problems were temporary abberations that would iron themselves out with time through electoral rejection and awareness, I say, Tell that to the mothers who lost children in the crossfire of battles fought between democratic party street groups unable to live with the idea of sharing their power, and with the local administrations in the ir pockets.

re. ``Syed Sharifuddin Pirzada, who appeared as a witness in the case, said that in 1901 Jinnah broke from the Ismaili Shia faith and became a Sunni when his sisters married Sunnis. This may have been a result of the disapprobation expressed by the Ismaili community.``
I suspect it would have been too much for the good Syed to fathom (or publicly suggest!) that Jinnah might have broken from the Ismaili Shia faith without opting for another.

Manto-
MinhajulQuran and Tahirul Qadri sound cool! Thanks for the intro.

http://www.dawn.com/2003/08/09/op.htm#2

The two-nation theory

By Kuldip Nayar


India`s partition is 56 years old. Still the controversy over the two-nation theory has not ended. Certain groups in Pakistan continue to harp on it. Maulana Fazlur Rahman, head of Muttahida Majlis-i-Amal (MMA), which embraces six religious parties, has said after his successful tour of India that he believed in the two-nation theory. Which two nations is he talking about?

It is true that the founder of Pakistan, Mohammad Ali Jinnah, propagated at one time that Muslims and Hindus in the subcontinent were two separate nations. He was then advocating a state where the Muslims would be in a majority unmindful of the fact that in any scheme of things more Muslims would be left in India. That was why Maulana Abul Kalam Azad differed with Jinnah and opposed the division. However, once the Congress and the British accepted the division of India, Jinnah himself redefined nationhood. He did not base it on religion.

In his speech as the Governor-General-designate, Jinnah said: ``...you will find that in the course of time. Hindus would cease to be Hindus and Muslims would cease to be Muslims, not in the religious sense, because that is the personal faith of each individual, but in the political sense as citizens of the state.`` What he envisaged was that the people living in Pakistan, both Muslims and Hindus, would become one nation in the same way as the Hindus and Muslims living in India would be. Religion would be a private affair, not part of the state.

There was no transfer of population in the partition formula. Hindus and Muslims were supposed to live in India and Pakistan as they did at the time of partition. It is, however, another matter that communal elements on both sides drove out the minorities, in Pakistan nearly all of them.

Some ten lakh people were killed and two crore uprooted from their country in the name of religion, Hinduism in India and Islam in Pakistan. Women and children were the worst sufferers. It was one nation when it came to barbarism.

Some quarters in Pakistan continue to sustain the old notion of two-nation theory. In this they find the justification to sustain fundamentalism. They want to keep the bogey of religion alive. This gives them a point to play with the emotions of the masses. This can delude people who want their leaders to improve their economic conditions.

It is the same convoluted thinking on religion which has made the Pakistan establishment to begin the country`s history from the day the Muslims arrived in India in the eighth century. There is no explanation of what the Moenjodaro, the Harappan and the Taxila civilizations represent. This reflected a bias against the Hindus. Students are confused. This was contrary to what Jinnah said: ``We are starting in the days when there is no discrimination, no distinction between one community and another, no discrimination between one caste or creed and another.``

With that kind of history and the propaganda of fundamentalists the obsession in certain circles that India represents Hindus and Pakistan Muslims has not gone. Take the conclave of MPs from the two countries at Islamabad. The entire exercise depended on the BJP`s participation. Had it said no, there would have been no conclave. The reason was obvious. Only the presence of the BJP underlined the two-nation theory.

The Pakistan establishment is thoroughly exposed when it demands the division of Jammu and Kashmir on the basis of religion. It does not bother that such a proposal might reopen the wounds of partition and the massacre in its wake.

The three Muslim MPs in the parliamentary delegation I led to Pakistan in the middle of June gave a warning both at Lahore and Karachi that Pakistan was more ``interested`` in the eight-lakh Muslims living in Kashmir than in 14-15 crore Muslims in the rest of India. I found that the argument had shaken the people in Pakistan. The point was not lost even on religious outfits.

Though fundamentalism is still a strong force in Pakistan, yet in the same Pakistan, I heard during the tour the term ``secular Muslim.`` Even if a preponderant majority did not affix secular to their name, they believed in a liberal, open society based on Jinnah`s ideology: ``You may belong to any religion, caste or creed that has nothing to do with the business of the state.``

Unfortunately, the concept of the two-nation theory, the division between Hindus and Muslims, is creeping into India`s polity. There is a deliberate plan to saffronize the society. Deputy Prime Minister L K Advani feels no hesitation in saying that the BJP has been making Hindutva a poll issue and would do the same in the next election.

The party`s obsession with communal politics is evident from the manner in which it has reacted to the decision by the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) to approach the Supreme Court for the retrial of the Best Bakery case in which 14 Muslims were burnt alive. In this case, the trial court in Gujarat has exonerated the accused, the Hindus, for lack of evidence.

The BJP has dubbed the NHRC`s action ``anti-Hindu.`` The fact is that the commission has taken note of witnesses being too afraid to tell the truth. They have gone on record on this point. Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi, who is involved in what happened in the state last year, has gone a step further.

He wants the President of India to find out how many people were killed in the country during communal riots since independence and how many punished. Such a study would be welcome. But how does it lessen the crime committed in Gujarat? And how does it square with the remark that the NHRC is ``anti-Hindu?`` It reflects only the BJP`s communal bias.

The worst part is the scant respect which the BJP tends to pay to the institutions. The party`s statements on the Babri masjid are not only contradictory but ominous. It says that the temple would be built on the site where the Babri masjid stood before demolition. At the same time, it says that the dispute would be solved either through negotiations between the Hindus and Muslims or by the court verdict.

How can one trust the BJP? Today the BJP has accused the NHRC of being anti-Hindu because of its decision to approach the Supreme Court on Gujarat. Tomorrow the BJP will dub the court anti-Hindu if it decides that the masjid was not built by demolishing a Hindu temple. Already there are newspaper reports that the excavations carried out by the Archaeological Survey of India at the site under court orders have not yielded any evidence that the masjid was built after destroying a temple.

India`s ethos is pluralism. Hindus and Muslims constitute one nation. The BJP is dividing the society. It is definitely playing into the hands of those in Pakistan who have an agenda other than that of Jinnah`s. They want to pit Hindus and Muslims against each other all the time. This is their ethos. The BJP is no different from them.

The writer is a freelance columnist based in New Delhi.

Errata

That first line of the last para should read `would be a loose cannon` not `lose`

Also... my mother didn`t get to vote this year because she was working on the election day. This year she would have voted for the PPP, as opposed to in 1997 when she wanted to vote for Imran Khan surrendering to my constant propaganda in favor of the great Khan.

-Manto