Youth Without Borders
Hira Nabi August 12, 2003
#229 Posted by MantoLives on August 12, 2003 11:12:27 pm
Chowk staff
Kindly delete 226 and 227. I didn`t write those. It seems to be some freak computer error that you are putting up tayyib`s posts under my name.
Razzz,
I am not sure why you keep on harping about the sentence. You made a claim asserting that anyone who speaks English can never represent the common man. I merely showed you your contradiction wrt that statement. Read #217 again.
Are you saying you didn`t make that claim, because I can show you where you did.
-Manto
Kindly delete 226 and 227. I didn`t write those. It seems to be some freak computer error that you are putting up tayyib`s posts under my name.
Razzz,
I am not sure why you keep on harping about the sentence. You made a claim asserting that anyone who speaks English can never represent the common man. I merely showed you your contradiction wrt that statement. Read #217 again.
Are you saying you didn`t make that claim, because I can show you where you did.
-Manto
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#227 Posted by MantoLives on August 12, 2003 11:06:49 pm
From: tayyab rashid
#2 by scout
[... does the government care enough to support standardized testing.]
Frankly, I am not sure what the government cares about?? Government started caring about industry and nationalized many units in the 70`s - look where they stand now.
What we need is an initiative by universities as suggested in post #5 by HisExcellency.... this regulation must come from the education sector itself, not the government. An association of educational institutes should be created to decide the application deadlines, and standardized testing procedures.
Unless universities put their house in order, there is a serious danger that government servants will increase their interference in the affairs of universities.
Today, higher education is a lucrative sector as industry was in pre 70s. And government servants are again on the prawl.
#2 by scout
[... does the government care enough to support standardized testing.]
Frankly, I am not sure what the government cares about?? Government started caring about industry and nationalized many units in the 70`s - look where they stand now.
What we need is an initiative by universities as suggested in post #5 by HisExcellency.... this regulation must come from the education sector itself, not the government. An association of educational institutes should be created to decide the application deadlines, and standardized testing procedures.
Unless universities put their house in order, there is a serious danger that government servants will increase their interference in the affairs of universities.
Today, higher education is a lucrative sector as industry was in pre 70s. And government servants are again on the prawl.
#226 Posted by MantoLives on August 12, 2003 11:05:57 pm
From: tayyab rashid
#2 by scout
[... does the government care enough to support standardized testing.]
Frankly, I am not sure what the government cares about?? Government started caring about industry and nationalized many units in the 70`s - look where they stand now.
What we need is an initiative by universities as suggested in post #5 by HisExcellency.... this regulation must come from the education sector itself, not the government. An association of educational institutes should be created to decide the application deadlines, and standardized testing procedures.
Unless universities put their house in order, there is a serious danger that government servants will increase their interference in the affairs of universities.
Today, higher education is a lucrative sector as industry was in pre 70s. And government servants are again on the prawl.
#2 by scout
[... does the government care enough to support standardized testing.]
Frankly, I am not sure what the government cares about?? Government started caring about industry and nationalized many units in the 70`s - look where they stand now.
What we need is an initiative by universities as suggested in post #5 by HisExcellency.... this regulation must come from the education sector itself, not the government. An association of educational institutes should be created to decide the application deadlines, and standardized testing procedures.
Unless universities put their house in order, there is a serious danger that government servants will increase their interference in the affairs of universities.
Today, higher education is a lucrative sector as industry was in pre 70s. And government servants are again on the prawl.
#225 Posted by MantoLives on August 12, 2003 10:55:44 pm
rsaxena,
You are right. There have been times when I have just considered leaving it all, but in the end I have always stayed around because if I didn`t that would be admitting defeat.
Every country has its crackpots, but when a democratic culture develops, these crackpots are sidelined. Since democracy has taken roots in India, you have managed to agree on a collective vision which is progressive and modern, no matter what little things happen. That is a great achievement, but amazingly I would say the credit for that achievement goes to your army which has never interfered in Governance process (which is precisely why your army kicks our army`s arse everytime we go to war... our army instead of practising art of war is busy running banks, electricity supply, universities and the cricket board). My bet is on democracy. Peace with you chaps is in our greatest national interest. No matter how many myths in history we create, the truth is Pakistan a much smaller country can`t overcome India.. and I don`t understand the desire to either, because some people do have that desire also.. `hum dehli pur jhanda garain gay`. Thank God they are limited to few people like ex-generals Hameed Gul etc. Also peace with India will allow Pakistan to emulate the democratic model or culture (though I agree with Ferozek that we need a presidential system).
Anyway thanks for acknowledging my vision. I think your badgering (nay complete and total annihilation) of my previous incarnation paid off, as it forced me to reconsider my biases, insecurities and just plain stupidity.
-Manto
You are right. There have been times when I have just considered leaving it all, but in the end I have always stayed around because if I didn`t that would be admitting defeat.
Every country has its crackpots, but when a democratic culture develops, these crackpots are sidelined. Since democracy has taken roots in India, you have managed to agree on a collective vision which is progressive and modern, no matter what little things happen. That is a great achievement, but amazingly I would say the credit for that achievement goes to your army which has never interfered in Governance process (which is precisely why your army kicks our army`s arse everytime we go to war... our army instead of practising art of war is busy running banks, electricity supply, universities and the cricket board). My bet is on democracy. Peace with you chaps is in our greatest national interest. No matter how many myths in history we create, the truth is Pakistan a much smaller country can`t overcome India.. and I don`t understand the desire to either, because some people do have that desire also.. `hum dehli pur jhanda garain gay`. Thank God they are limited to few people like ex-generals Hameed Gul etc. Also peace with India will allow Pakistan to emulate the democratic model or culture (though I agree with Ferozek that we need a presidential system).
Anyway thanks for acknowledging my vision. I think your badgering (nay complete and total annihilation) of my previous incarnation paid off, as it forced me to reconsider my biases, insecurities and just plain stupidity.
-Manto
#224 Posted by tahmed32 on August 12, 2003 8:43:17 pm
razz #122 ``The army as well as the establishment felt the need to revive the kashmir issue because they felt insecure...``
They sure did feel insecure...no Kashmir dispute means no dispute left with India...no dispute with India means reduced influence of military generals in national affairs...this would open the Pandora`s Box for all sorts of problems for the generals - switch in government expenditures from the military sector to (horrors!!) the education sector, the health sector; questions raised about ``legitimate`` benefits of military generals (e.g. while in service and upon retirement and after retirement); accountability for ``illegitimate`` benefits (e.g. kickbacks received by Zia and his henchmen that have never been investigated); reduced number of generals; and so on.
Of COURSE the army (generals) felt the need to revive the kashmir issue...heck, if there had been no Kargill, Mushy may even have had to quit his job when fired by the prime minister, rather than getting an extension in the most innovative of ways (by firing his boss).
With geniuses like you around, razz mian, Pakistan does not need any enemies.
They sure did feel insecure...no Kashmir dispute means no dispute left with India...no dispute with India means reduced influence of military generals in national affairs...this would open the Pandora`s Box for all sorts of problems for the generals - switch in government expenditures from the military sector to (horrors!!) the education sector, the health sector; questions raised about ``legitimate`` benefits of military generals (e.g. while in service and upon retirement and after retirement); accountability for ``illegitimate`` benefits (e.g. kickbacks received by Zia and his henchmen that have never been investigated); reduced number of generals; and so on.
Of COURSE the army (generals) felt the need to revive the kashmir issue...heck, if there had been no Kargill, Mushy may even have had to quit his job when fired by the prime minister, rather than getting an extension in the most innovative of ways (by firing his boss).
With geniuses like you around, razz mian, Pakistan does not need any enemies.
#223 Posted by dost_mittar on August 12, 2003 7:39:55 pm
dionysus:
``Dear Mr. Mittar, I would just like to say that I am awe-struck by your ability to keep a straight face while writing the above after reading this: ``
...in case you didn`t know, I am not the government of India.
``Dear Mr. Mittar, I would just like to say that I am awe-struck by your ability to keep a straight face while writing the above after reading this: ``
...in case you didn`t know, I am not the government of India.
#222 Posted by rsaxena on August 12, 2003 7:09:50 pm
re: mantolives
...dude, i feel bad for you sometimes...you`ve got the right vision for pakistan, but very little support amongst your countrymen (judging from the characters you are debating with here)...
...dude, i feel bad for you sometimes...you`ve got the right vision for pakistan, but very little support amongst your countrymen (judging from the characters you are debating with here)...
#221 Posted by razzz on August 12, 2003 5:27:00 pm
Re Manto, Plats 8:
Question : Do you think that these kids are representative of the common man on both sides ? Think about that first and then go into the debate of where what sentence should be used.
Lahore process was DONE in haste because it ignored the main conflict between us at that point i.e. the kashmir issue and thats why it failed. Need for conflict resolution was ignored because Nawaz Sharif was too willing to hop on the free trade band wagon betwen the two nations (that too for his own vested interested as was proven by the sugar scam later on). Sure we need CBM`s for that but we have to realize that conflict resolution is a lengthy process which is based on power politics as well as a lot of other things.....so that being a long and cumbersome process does not imply that we skip this NECESSARY step in the whole process. The army as well as the establishment felt the need to revive the kashmir issue because they felt insecure that the nawaz govt would side step the corse issue...thus we ended up with Kargil.
and could you stop whining over here.....what do u expect when you pick on sentences rather then the idea due to the lack of arguments supporting your point of view.
cheers
raza
Question : Do you think that these kids are representative of the common man on both sides ? Think about that first and then go into the debate of where what sentence should be used.
Lahore process was DONE in haste because it ignored the main conflict between us at that point i.e. the kashmir issue and thats why it failed. Need for conflict resolution was ignored because Nawaz Sharif was too willing to hop on the free trade band wagon betwen the two nations (that too for his own vested interested as was proven by the sugar scam later on). Sure we need CBM`s for that but we have to realize that conflict resolution is a lengthy process which is based on power politics as well as a lot of other things.....so that being a long and cumbersome process does not imply that we skip this NECESSARY step in the whole process. The army as well as the establishment felt the need to revive the kashmir issue because they felt insecure that the nawaz govt would side step the corse issue...thus we ended up with Kargil.
and could you stop whining over here.....what do u expect when you pick on sentences rather then the idea due to the lack of arguments supporting your point of view.
cheers
raza
#220 Posted by plats8 on August 12, 2003 3:55:07 pm
ansari/dost-mittar,
About ``Mr and Mrs. Iyer``, I agree that Konkona`s performance (given that this is only
her second film) was superb. She uses her eyes very well. Ansari, I had forgotten about
the scene with Surekha Sikri looking at her own hands. Very nicely done.
Somehow, I would`ve expected the fear factor to consume the bus passengers
to an even greater degree - I was uneasy at how quickly they got over it collectively.
Self-preservation, perhaps ?
Dost-mittar,
Bawandar was a docudrama, true. Whenever I see Raghuvir Yadav, I am reminded
of his performance in ``Massey Sahab`` and these performances tend to pale a bit.
However, what really struck me was how he supported his raped wife through the
judicial tamasha - extremely difficult in the rural Rajasthan context.
About ``Mr and Mrs. Iyer``, I agree that Konkona`s performance (given that this is only
her second film) was superb. She uses her eyes very well. Ansari, I had forgotten about
the scene with Surekha Sikri looking at her own hands. Very nicely done.
Somehow, I would`ve expected the fear factor to consume the bus passengers
to an even greater degree - I was uneasy at how quickly they got over it collectively.
Self-preservation, perhaps ?
Dost-mittar,
Bawandar was a docudrama, true. Whenever I see Raghuvir Yadav, I am reminded
of his performance in ``Massey Sahab`` and these performances tend to pale a bit.
However, what really struck me was how he supported his raped wife through the
judicial tamasha - extremely difficult in the rural Rajasthan context.
#219 Posted by MantoLives on August 12, 2003 3:31:27 pm
chowk might wanna consider taking back the privilege of posting without scrutiny for certain individuals here. This is a privilege which comes with responsibility. If there is a breach of the duty, I believe the rule of right should be re-established.
When things like `why do you lick those kid`s soles` etc are flyin` around, I think chowk needs to step in to bring back decency to the debate.
-Manto
When things like `why do you lick those kid`s soles` etc are flyin` around, I think chowk needs to step in to bring back decency to the debate.
-Manto
#218 Posted by plats8 on August 12, 2003 3:26:45 pm
razzz #215
``....it comes with conflict resolution through proper channels.....Remember the lahore process........it was a thing done in haste and without proper conflict resolution....``
I know you keep harping about evaluating the idea and not individual sentences, but
this statement devalues your central point. Are you claiming that the elected heads
of state of two countries getting together to have a meeting is not a ``proper`` channel
for conflict resolution ? How much more ``proper`` can it get ?
Could you also please enlighten us about how Lahore was done in a rush, and that
is why it failed ?
``....it comes with conflict resolution through proper channels.....Remember the lahore process........it was a thing done in haste and without proper conflict resolution....``
I know you keep harping about evaluating the idea and not individual sentences, but
this statement devalues your central point. Are you claiming that the elected heads
of state of two countries getting together to have a meeting is not a ``proper`` channel
for conflict resolution ? How much more ``proper`` can it get ?
Could you also please enlighten us about how Lahore was done in a rush, and that
is why it failed ?
#217 Posted by MantoLives on August 12, 2003 3:20:31 pm
PS:
You say reference to language was made to prove that they are not representative of the people. Agreed that is the reference you made. I simply answered that it is not necessary that if one speaks in the English language he is not representative of the people.
Now either you are saying that your reference is flawed (which is my contention) or that no anyone who speaks the English language can`t be representative of the people which kind of contradicts your position on Jinnah.
Have you considered taking a few logic classes ?
You say reference to language was made to prove that they are not representative of the people. Agreed that is the reference you made. I simply answered that it is not necessary that if one speaks in the English language he is not representative of the people.
Now either you are saying that your reference is flawed (which is my contention) or that no anyone who speaks the English language can`t be representative of the people which kind of contradicts your position on Jinnah.
Have you considered taking a few logic classes ?
#216 Posted by MantoLives on August 12, 2003 3:10:35 pm
On the contrary dear boy, I believe I am the staunchest Pakistani nationalist here... what is more is that I don`t need to keep pointing fingers to BJP, and deriding a bunch of well intentioned people like YIP to prove my nationalism... With your current post you have shown us who is insecure and who is not.
-Manto
PS: I am very happy with my Pakistani identity...
-Manto
PS: I am very happy with my Pakistani identity...
#215 Posted by razzz on August 12, 2003 3:09:57 pm
Re Manto:
The only person who is insecure of his visions of pakistan over here is you.....thus your desire to lick the soles of these elitist kids.....plus these are not going to be the opinion makers in the future.....do you think that policy is made by idiots like these? its NOT.......the reference to language was made to show that these are people who are not representative of the common man........so debate the idea not the sentence.
.....i understand what pakistan has failed to achieve and what are its achievement and identity.....frankly if you think people like you can come and redefine it in a jiffy...then you are wrong...
Plus MORE importantly peace does not come with picnics and extravaganzas like these.....it comes with conflict resolution through proper channels.....Remember the lahore process........it was a thing done in haste and without proper conflict resolution....and it failed.....because achieving long lasting peace requires a gradual process through a sustained process of dialogue and issue management.
cheers
raza
Plus u might not be happy with the identity of pakistan......i am.
The only person who is insecure of his visions of pakistan over here is you.....thus your desire to lick the soles of these elitist kids.....plus these are not going to be the opinion makers in the future.....do you think that policy is made by idiots like these? its NOT.......the reference to language was made to show that these are people who are not representative of the common man........so debate the idea not the sentence.
.....i understand what pakistan has failed to achieve and what are its achievement and identity.....frankly if you think people like you can come and redefine it in a jiffy...then you are wrong...
Plus MORE importantly peace does not come with picnics and extravaganzas like these.....it comes with conflict resolution through proper channels.....Remember the lahore process........it was a thing done in haste and without proper conflict resolution....and it failed.....because achieving long lasting peace requires a gradual process through a sustained process of dialogue and issue management.
cheers
raza
Plus u might not be happy with the identity of pakistan......i am.
#214 Posted by razzz on August 12, 2003 3:05:29 pm
Re Manto:
The only person who is insecure of his visions of pakistan over here is you.....thus your desire to lick the soles of these elitist kids.....plus these are not going to be the opinion makers in the future.....do you think that policy is made by idiots like these? its NOT.......the reference to language was made to show that these are people who are not representative of the common man........so debate the idea not the sentence.
.....i understand what pakistan has failed to achieve and what are its achievement and identity.....frankly if you think people like you can come and redefine it in a jiffy...then you are wrong...
Plus MORE importantly peace does not come with picnics and extravaganzas like these.....it comes with conflict resolution through proper channels.....Remember the lahore process........it was a thing done in haste and without proper conflict resolution....and it failed.....because achieving lost lasting peace requires a gradual process through a sustained process of dialogue and issue management.
cheers
raza
Plus u might not be happy with the identity of pakistan......i am.
The only person who is insecure of his visions of pakistan over here is you.....thus your desire to lick the soles of these elitist kids.....plus these are not going to be the opinion makers in the future.....do you think that policy is made by idiots like these? its NOT.......the reference to language was made to show that these are people who are not representative of the common man........so debate the idea not the sentence.
.....i understand what pakistan has failed to achieve and what are its achievement and identity.....frankly if you think people like you can come and redefine it in a jiffy...then you are wrong...
Plus MORE importantly peace does not come with picnics and extravaganzas like these.....it comes with conflict resolution through proper channels.....Remember the lahore process........it was a thing done in haste and without proper conflict resolution....and it failed.....because achieving lost lasting peace requires a gradual process through a sustained process of dialogue and issue management.
cheers
raza
Plus u might not be happy with the identity of pakistan......i am.
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