Youth Without Borders

People like Arjunm just like to pick fights.. I guess this is second nature to Arjun mian.

The point I was trying to make is that does it make sense for Razz to take personal pot shots at me? I have said nothing to offend him... if I happen to like the current peace initiative, you don`t have to agree with me, but should I be slandered meaninglessly? and accused of being less patriotic than anyone? The truth is that I was always a Pakistan nationalist, I will always be ... I have fought my share of pitched battles with the Indians here on Chowk... but now that I have added an element of rational sense to my national sense... I am being accused of being a drawing room idealist?? I think Razz projects his own image onto others... I had concluded that the kind of confrontational approach that people like Razz and the hawks propose we take, will never succeed... and it will only hurt Pakistan... People who don`t tire of speaking about Kashmir... fine.. it might be the core issue between Pakistan and India... but do you really think the world would allow Kashmir to separate from a functioning Secular democracy like India and join an authoritarian self avowed Islamic state? Maybe if Pakistan was a democracy things would have been different... So what is the core issue then?

Those who talk about Kashmir and its centrality are the ones who are the drawing room idealists... Pakistan`s people are dying of poverty... Since we started our brilliant Jehadic strategy in Kashmir, Pakistan`s population under the poverty line has increased from 17% in 1989 to 40% in 2003. Pakistan`s human development indicators have placed it below Nepal and Bangladesh. (And don`t start with the bias in the HDI, it was created by the famous Pakistani economist Dr. Mahbub ul Haq)... Law and order has gone down significantly in Pakistan... despite the best efforts population bomb is still ticking... so we were wronged in Kashmir... shi-t happens! Should we sacrifice the development of entire Pakistan for that piece of land?

With that said, the final solution of Kashmir is the one prescribed by the UN... ie Plebiscite... I believe that. But I am not ready to sacrifice Pakistan on a matter of principle... if `Drawing room` idealists and so called Patriots like Razzz can do it... the plight of 145 million Pakistanis is on their hands...


Let us talk facts... let us not waste time on esoteric issues...

-Manto


PS Ironically, the `elitist` kids that Razz speaks of , also were pretty adamant about discussing Kashmir.

sarwar #335: ``To which Advani replied, ``I was born in Karachi and, after partition, moved to India. Why not let the people of Sindh decide whether they want to continue to be a part of Pakistan?`` At which point Musharraf changed the subject, knowing full well that the Sindhis would vote for independence.``

I think this would actually be a good idea. The people of Sind should be allowed to vote whether they want to continue with Pakistan. As should anyone else. My guess is that an overwhelming amount of Sindhis (Mohajir and rural) would want to remain with Pakistan.

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People Razzz must be a psychic... or maybe he has a crystal ball... he has so accurately described me without even knowing me or having met me even once... he must have received Ilham from God... too bad if he was to claim Ilham from God he would automatically become a Non-Muslim under the wonderful constitution of Pakistan.

It is shameless to see novices on chowk second guessing those like me who have come of age on this website.. If anyone has any doubts about my patriotism, for all I care they can go to hell... My patriotism, real genuine and progressive has been evolutionary... but it has been there for all to see on this website since October 1999... as ylh!

-Manto

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anuradha #330 I wish normal people like you would write more often on chowk. The posters representing south india on chowk have to date been poor specimen of the human race indeed. They are almost uniformly obsessed with hatreds and complexes and devoid of any decency (e.g. we have one guy - arjun - who seemed besides himself with joy at the accidental death of two pakistani soldiers) or humor (unless one thinks that laughing at the death of anyone is humor).

Having met many fine south indian people, I know these people represent only the lunatic fringe. I hope you will write more on chowk, and help set a more positive tone to discussions concerning India-Pakistan relations.

yes all these people can do is REMAIN idealistic, sit in their drawing rooms, be anti establishment and anti state because thats the KOOL thing to do for PSEUDOS........and pin their hopes on the ELITES which in the past have contributed nothing to improve the situation between the two countries.........and ofcourse RANT alllll the time about their so called patriotism.
cheers
raza

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Veeresh

I am tempted to say that Jinnah got sentimental and decided to honor Bhagat Singh, whose cause he had once championed... but Jinnah didn`t let sentiments come in the way of his work.

So I don`t know... but I am glad 23rd March, our national day, celebrating the Lahore Resolutuon is also the shahadat of Bhagat Singh, Lahore`s greatest martyr.

-Manto

Hi Yasser . . . ever wondered why Pakistan`s National Day (23rd March) is the same as Bhagat Singh`s Shaheedi?

anuradha,

Thankyou for your kind words. They mean a lot to me ... our common hopes for peace and freedom tie us in a much greater bond than linguistic, religious or cultural bonds.

-Manto

To Manto

Hi! I`ve been an unseen presence on chowk for the past few months following all
interacts with great interest. Just wanted to say how much I appreciate your
posts. And those of many other fine pakistanis like you.

As a south Indian hindu, I can`t say I`ve anything much in common with pakistanis,
unlike the northerners, no shared cultural, regional, linguistic or religious background
whatsoever, but I do share your hopes of peace and friendship between our two countries.
For all our sakes.

People to people contact is definitely one way to get there. After all when we meet the
unknown enemy and see he is no monster but a normal human being just like us, it
certainly diminishes the desire to drop an atomic bomb on his head ;)

Here`s hoping on both our independence days that all your visions for pakistan, and
for indo-pak amity, are realised...
and even if the cynics are proved right and your dreams remain just that, heck at least
you are the nobler for having dreamed those dreams...

warmhearted idealistic young people like you are the hope of this sad subcontinent...
keep that much maligned flag of peace and love flying high!

cheers... :)

Stuka,

I find it sad and Ironic that we in Pakistani Punjab denigrate the greatest ruler this region had because he was a Sikh, while the Indians in South India denigrate the finest ruler that region had because he was a Muslim. Maybe Alephnull is right... but that is certainly not my view.

Tipu Sultan and Maharaja Ranjit Singh were great men... the similarities are more than overwhelming... both were modernizers of the Military, while both were deeply religious in their own belief, both were extremely tolerant of other faiths, both were pragmatic enough to look towards the French who had a significant presence in their armies. Both fought resiliently and both were fiercely independent... If the Sher-e-Mysore, and Sher-e-Punjab had succeeded, the map of South Asia would have been very different and the History would have been written on our own terms. Like any pragmatic ruler, both were forced to appeal to religion while fighting an outward threat, but it is how remarkably free their actions are of faith that makes them unique... Yes Tipu did talk of Jehad when he sent an embassy to the King of Afghanistan, and the Ottoman Sultan... but he didn`t talk of Jehad when he was dealing with the young leader of France, a fella named `Napoleon Bonaparte` towards the very end of his (Tipu`s) reign... he didn`t talk of Jehad when he appealed to the Peshwas of the Marhatta Kingdom to join him in his struggle against the British. Tipu is on the record to have built many temples... the pandits at the temple in Seringapatam affirm that he used to visit the temple there not out of religious conviction but to express solidarity with the majority of his populace. It is there he played holi with his Hindu friends. Persianized he was, after all he was a Muslim and he had the right to his choice of culture.. just like we are westernized and it is our choice.. Persian culture was still invogue..


To denigrate Tipu and his brilliant father as adventurers from North Punjab is ok... but no one can deny that their rule was far better for the masses of Mysore than the dynasty that ruled the land before him.


-Manto

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PS: Naqshbandi, I would like you to show me which so called Muslim has slandered Tipu Sultan on this board?

PS: And Tipu Sultan`s full name was not Muhammad Tipu Sultan. His name was Fateh Ali Tipu Sultan.