Youth Without Borders

I read your article Hira. It is nice. I can feel in it the purety of simpleness, from the heart of the teenage who haven`t (and I pray, may never) come accross cruel realities. I remember when Bosnian PM responded to one of the Pakistani journalist. She said, ``we did not knew who we were, as we were living with them like they were, marrying with them and sharing with them, we had forgotton we were Muslims or had any specific identity, morals and values...what just happened has taught us and made us realized...we are Muslims...their hate was so strong that no matter what we did, we were still not one of them....

Most of the Indians are like the Croats, they will talk about Pakistan in not friendly terms, I understand as that is how their ``democratic`` government has brought them up and their media ``programed`` them. Living in Pakistan you or your friend tell me in how many Pakistani dramas or films India is either dragged in or humiliated. I tell you the tone and language used in Indian media for Pakistan is so horrible that you cannot imagine. Since 1977 I promised myself never to see an Indian movie or music, I stand by it today, but I am not bigoted, if go anywhere where a movie is on display or there is some discussion, I do not leave immediately, but do look for an opportunity to leave. India is so full of hate against Pakistan that when they do a ``friendly`` gesture they still hurt either Pakistani pride or Islamic principles or both like veer-zara. Look at their movie`s dialogues, newspapers and magzines and compare them with those in Pakistan you will realize where the real hate lies. They tell me on this happens on both the sides, and I say please distinguish between burning down a complete house and burning an entrace gate of a house in response.

They will talk about democracy in India and martial laws in Pakistan, but will not like to mention that their democracy has helped kill hundreds of thousands of Muslims, raped and kidnapped over the last two decades (millions during the partition) as compare to only select some individual acts against minorities in Pakistan during martial laws. They will try and convince you about Pakistani army going first in Kashmir, but will not mention that in fact Pakistani army had a British General, Gracy who refused to honor Jinnah`s command to go and resist Indian army taking over Kashmir as Indian army was under Lord Mountbatin`s command and Gracy`s first loyalty was with Queen of England`s representative. It was only after formal removal of Gracy that Pakistan Army could go and resist Indian army`s advance and hence creation of LOC. They will speak of Cargil but will remain silent on Siachin and 2 other posts on LOC which they violated first. ...

Let me stop here for I sound horrible telling things against India, on the platform where you just have expressed your gentle feelings - the generation of Hira would think I am telling them not to befriend Indians and am against peace...no, it is not so, I am just warning based on my experiences or is it the experiences of centuries for there must be traitors those helped few Englishmen to take over Pakistan-India subcontinent. Extend your hands for friendship if you want to and I only hope you get sincerity in return, those who befriends you as Muslims and Pakistanis not because in the name of friendship the one who adopts hindu traditions and steps out of their Muslim morals and Pakistani pride, for surely being Hindu, Sikh and Indians is not held against them by us.


My wishes for Kasmiri freedom fighters both physical and political and those who are fighting for them leaving their peaceful homes...they deserve freedom as we deserved from others in 1947.

Re: # 19
dear madani,u talk of Kashmir as of an apple or some exotic fruit.`if we cannot get kashmir` u talk of the land not of the people living there.It is plain from your comments that they mean nothing to you.Do you know what they want? what there aspirations are?
The trouble in Kashmir will never end unless the peoples wishes are taken into account and that might mean kashmir not joining either of it corrupt neighbours.

I know exactly what you mean by making friends you are not likely ever to see the faces of again. Thinking of the wonderful time spent together during such events is always so poignant. I remember the time I had gone to Bangkok on a Human Rights Training course and met the most wonderful motley of people from all over the Asia Pacific. You talk of just Indians? I met Filipinos, Moros to be exact, Burmese, Cambodian, Aborigines, Indonesians, all dedicated to the plight of HR in their countries, all beacons of hope and activism in their spheres. Once we were through with the day long training we headed out in search of Muslim restaurants and the non muslim friends tagged along. We had a whole floor to ourselves and made sure all others requested a change of rooms with our late night laughs and corridoor meets.
Despite having made promises and plans of meeting on some other platform, all of us know it would not be possible. Web was the last recourse to stay in touch but that too ruled out as we were all drowned in daily work and grilling routines.
As of now, I log onto my mail box in hopes of seeing something from my DTP friends. Once in a while one of us sends across our latest accomplishment but that truth be told, is not enough for me, I know the amd cap person we all otherwise were and miss that camaraderie. And would probably keep on missing that. The important thing is the understanding I gained of people otherwise i would never have met. The fact that despite all our differences in color, cast, creed, religion et al, we all shared something in common: A hope for a better and just world.

#383 by rsridhar

sridhar, thanks... that was very interesting and informative... am in a rush now... will try to get back later... what you said btw put me in mind of a proverb, I can`t remember it exactly or in which language it was... something to the effect that there is no enmity as bitter as that of those who were once friends (or brothers?)

and of course south indians care! aren`t we indians before everything else??

you spoke of Noor ... it was BIG news last month in Bangalore where I live... every single day on the front page... with updates, interviews, reports on the parents` visits to local tourist spots (they even went to ISKCON temple, and were presented a copy of the Bhagavad Gita each by the priests)... the outpouring of public affection and good feeling was simply amazing... of course there were the usual number of detractors who dashed off letters to newspapers saying things like...

why is so much fuss being made of a pakistani child?? aren`t there enough indian kids who are sick, who cares about them? and so on (the urstrulys of bangalore ;)

but for most of us, it was something to feel good about... NOT in the crowing `oh pakistan doesn`t have the facilities we do so they have to come here for treatment` kind of way... but a genuine feeling of happiness that our city was able to help a sick child from another country, esp one that we almost went to war with last year... mixed with the hope that this might lead to kindlier feelings among us...

cheers... :)

his highness Mr Manto
yea sure no harm in allowing these kids to ``have fun`` and socialise cept perhaps teenage pregnancies but as for them growing up to be media moguls and business men! dont you see! are u so naive that u cant tell that that is why they are going to be further distanced from the common man!~ the common man does not trust our business hogs and media whores! and for a good goddamn reaosn! its because the majority are money laundering personal limelight hogging gorai kai pithoo and/or elitist godfrosaken drawing room critics like you! and that ties in with the whole english speaking thingy! the common man does not trust the elitist idiot who believes english defines the subsatnce of a man! and sorry dearie but the average elitist does think that way! (hai woh to angraizee bhe nahin boltra woh to jaahil hai) and this is no alien concept! plus dont forget that the amount of toime and effort and funds being wasted in this ``harmless`` fun could be used to feed the needy or educate the illeterate and that makes better sense! sorry but once again iull have to go by wat razz says he seems to be the only practically thinking levelk headed here at earth person as oppssed to u lala land idiots! we have to make theese kids realize that they are channelling their efforts in a fruitless and idealistic struggle and show them beeter techniques in solving worlds problems! get then to set up education ngo`s or other chgarity thigns not send them to bloody karachee for a month to enjoy socialising and romancing while deluding them to the real world! i think in the end the whole thing is an inherent danger to the cause it self because it only serves to sidtance these ppl from the regular! the commoners! the peasent watrever the crap u wanna call em in ure drawing rooim language! o yea and btw i dont think they only want peace! i think the majority are doing it to help their admissions cause or to get laid or watever! but trust mne i have freoinds in the organization! its a whole social upfront ``i also wanna be seen`` sham! and thats is why my good friend i do not support it and see harm in it! but u wouldnt really give it a secong thouhgt would you! coz after all any one practical enuff to know how the things work around here is a fundo and a myopic extremist right! set down ure tea turn off the ac and come out of the drawing room u fool coz thats where the rest of us are herded getting hurt by ure elitist gora views! have a nicre day ure majesty!
adios amigos

Re Manto:

the fact that those kids had trouble speaking in their respective languages and made their film in english is ONE of the things which reflects that they rnt representative of the common man. Dont bring Jinnah into this because jinnah was a leader with mass public support who clearly had the backing of the common man as proven by the 1946 elections. No comparison at all. As for the elite kids being future policy makers..... i hate to repeat myself again but here it is...why i wouldnt want them as our leaders.
``Just think that when these kids grow up they wont just be worried about their peace and ideals....they would have their family business to take care off as well as a lot of other things....vested interests would make it very difficult for them to change it because of the status quo which has produced them in the first place. You described them as future mediamen and industrialists and politicians......well before them their fathers hav retained these positions....do you think of them as EVIL men who couldnt make a difference....no it was not because they were evil...they had other priorities....and with time so will these kids....do you think as an industrialist one of these kids would want free trade with india because of the impending danger of his being kicked out of the competitive market..............as a scion of political family one of these would not like to play the kashmir card to gain sympathy of the voters as his forefathers have been doing ( i could give you two examples of such idealistic kids gone all political and india bashers who are members of assembly on Q league`s ticket in the current National assembly). And the list goes on and on.....
so the very thought that these elite kids would control out future as well is a very disturbing thought for me because it would mean an extension of the status quo as these elite families have too much at stake and too much to lose with a change in the future. Remember we are in this situation because of these ELITES in the first place. Thats why i want the middle class and common man to have a say in the future not the elites.``



cheers
raza

re:#330 by anuradha
Your sentiments are worth applauding. I too started out in Chowk 2 years ago (perhaps more) in a similar fashion. IF you interact long enough, you will notice that Chowk is like any other place: there are some very good fellas, some very bad ones but the majority are average people. We are here because we like it. Nothing that is said here is personal.
I am a South Indian who grew up in North and have a better perspective of what Northies are thinking. So, here is my take on Indo-Pak relations for what it is worth:

For me , this Indo-Pak rivalry is purely a North Indian thing. After all, Pakis were all North Indians at one time. Then came partition. Like 2 brothers who agreed to seperate because they could not live together, Indian (mainly North Indians) and Pak seperated on religious and ideological grounds.
Much has happened to Pak since then. It has not been able to have a people` s govt and continues to throw up dictators who make India`s life very difficult. Pak, instead of going on its own path of ``self-discovery`` started defining itself as ``something that is not India``. It has become absurd now. The ideological rift is so wide that Pak has to systematically dismantle all the apparutuses that it has carefully built in the past 50 years and this incudes the huge defense infrastructure, jehadi camps, anti-Indian indoctrinations from school onwards etc. In other words, it has to invest in ``friendship with India`` as a policy. This needs change in mindset of its rulers, who are the Army Brass.
If North Indians and Pakis are buddies, what is wrong. Why are the 2 countries at each other`s throats? And, should we South Indians care?
To answer the last question first, South Indians are as much affected today as Northies are due to to the nuclear dimesions. Things have changed drastically after Kargil, which for the first time was broadcast nationwide and affected Southies as much as Northies. So, yes. South Indians have to care about how Indo-Pak relations are going. This relationship however seems to be determined by North Indians who are emotional about it. This has distorted the picture. We see this love-hate relationship. As we speak, it is back to ``love``.

India had the unique opportunity of solving the Kashmir problem and may be, give ``substantial`` concessions to the Bhutto govt after 1971 war. India could have been magnanimous. Paki army was down the dumps and if India had invested in friendship with Pak then, Paki political institutions would have been strengthened and Army would not be as powerful today as it is. India allowed Paki army to bounce back by ``popular will and perception`` of average Paki of India to be a hegemon and an enemy to be defended against. Who else to turn to except the Army? So, Paki army acquired this ``holy cow`` label and has capitalised on it ever since.
Then, India went ahead with nuclear test (the one in 1974) and the region has never been the same again.
Why are we enemies then? In order to understand that, you need to read the 2 articles, one by Vir Sanghvi and the other by M.J Akbar. Here are the links. Read them to know how difficult it is to achieve peace between the 2 nations, good intentions of a lot of people notwithstanding.
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=315213
http://www.sulekha.com/redirectnh.asp?cid=315225

I conclude with these insightful words from M.J. Akbar`s column:
``Imperatives will create peace, if we are to achieve it. Goodwill is simply not good enough, even if there was much sincere goodwill available. Peace will come when the people shape the moment, when a child called Noor is the source of change, and teenagers are greeting with the special rapture that the young reserve for their own, melting borders with their warmth and teasing armies with their laughter. Peace will come when governments learn to follow the people. For too long we have been advised that civilians must understand the Army mind if we want peace with Pakistan. Perhaps it is time that the Army learnt to understand the civilian heart — on both sides of the border.``

Sridhar

Dear Razzz,

Good that you decided to restore the civility.

First of all about the sentence picking, I merely pointed out to you that if someone speaks in English or not it doesn`t mean they are representative or not. Infact you agreed with me when we talked about Jinnah. You just couldn`t find it in yourself to admit it. If these kids are not representative of the common man it is because of other reasons, and not because they choose to speak in English.

I agree that these kids are elitist and they may not represent the common man. Still I don`t see the harm in letting them meet, and party with each other. Besides idealism aside, it is a fact that these kids, by virtue of their luck and wealth, will be important as business leaders, media moguls etc. I am not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing, but that is the way it is. I personally didn`t get the feeling that they were inclined towards fun, but again you have your way of looking at things.

My one harmless comment about your `diction` was made after the loads of abuse you heaped on me.. I hope you will acknowledge that as well.. still nothing in that comment could even compare to the comments you passed, and if you are as fairminded as you claim to be, you will realize that.

-Manto

#368 by temporal


thank you, t.

:)

Manto: fair enough.

what can be done about a person who is more fond of picking on sentences and so called flaws in DICTION then talk about the ISSUE. Now in a CIVIL language which u r sooooo fond of.....manto bhai !!! i am proposing a practical and pragmatic approach over here...not an idealistic one which never gets realized. and its not as if this happens only in pakistan...it happens all over the world.....idealism never works......if one were to believe the main covenants of socialism what could be more beneficial to a nation state then that....but as we can see that its not practical to implement it....cz once the state gains power...it never whithers away....same is the case with capitlalism turning into crony capitalism......do you think ideals like nation without flags or borders have any long term meaning ?. Coming back to the kids.......as i earlier pointed out ..sure they might have good intentions right now...though i think they were more inclined towards the fun bit then the serious issues at hand.....just another party and reason for hanging out for them........yeh but in this case they had a peace conference rather then a drama,concert exhibition or a fair etc......anyway if we believe your argument we know from experience that as they grow up their idealism will be replaced by a need to mantain the status quo which gives extension to the elite society. anyway i guess conflict of interest will always remain......so goodluck with ur idealism but dont expect the mainstream to consider that as THEIR voice. :)
cheers
raza

Dear Dullah Bhatti Bhai,

You are right ... Jinnah`s vision didn`t come to fruition. All I can say is that Jinnah probably thought too highly of the nation he was leading.. he was wrong in assuming that much... The Emphasis on Jinnah is precisely to that end of bringing his vision of a modern secular and democratic polity to a completion.

What I meant to say when I mentioned learning about Bhagat Singh through Jinnah`s speech was simply that in a country like Pakistan where freedom struggle has been limited to only Muslim Heroes (Real or imaginary), it was Jinnah`s life which inspired me to read more about South Asia... it was after I read more about his pre-Pakistan movement politics that led me to probe deeper into the alternate freedom struggles (of which Jinnah himself was a part)...

Dullah Bhatti Bhai.. frankly in Pakistan, History itself is a secret well protected by few... even Jinnah`s life is obscured for the most part... what to talk of a non-Muslim freedom fighter? I agree with you on how a person should find out about his/her roots...if only history was more readily available to Pakistani kids... though I don`t agree with the language issue... there are other reasons for it, and none of them are due to a bias against my own Punjabi roots... for me the order remains the World, Pakistan and then Punjab and Lahore... Hence English, Urdu and Punjabi in that order.

-Manto

Manto: I don`t know a lot about Jinnah but from what you say about him, he was probably a fine man. If he envisioned a secular country with muslim majority with equal protection and rights of other native minorities then I don`t see anything wrong with it..but that did not happen. I don`t blame him for it but for a visionary he was, he should have foreseen it. If he could see Muslims will be treated badly by Hindu majority, how could he not see non-muslims treated badly by muslims? I am glad you found Bhagat singh through Jinnah speech but it was not a secret that one could have not found out any where else. you could have just found it by reading a little bit of Govt College Lahore, lahore Jail, freedom struggle, Gadhar movement ...or any related subject. May be if you did not concentrate that much on Jinnah and also read alternate freedom struggles you would have found out about Bhagat singh long time ago.

Anyway, I did not read your book review because I have the same book sitting on my table for last 1 month and have not gotten to it yet.

You have guessed correctly about dullabhatti ID`s background...though I did not have to read master Tara Singh`s speeches to find about Dullah Bhatti ;-) ...dulleh bhatti di vaar was fed to me when I was probably 5 yr old. A child should not have to read thick academic books to find out his/her roots...don`t you think it should be simpler than that? that is why I disagree with you on the order of importance of languages...for a punjabi kid...order should be Punjabi, English, Urdu, Hindi, Persian, Kashmiri, Pashto, Sindhi, Gujrati etc.

Examples of Razzz`s tolerance:

`lunatic` `kisser of soles of the elite` `delusional` `elitist` `drawing room critic` `nobody` as quoted from Razzz`s posts.

People If this is tolerance I don`t want any part of it... Believe me you will not find `tolerance` of this kind in my posts...


God save the world from such `tolerance`

Ah... my tolerance level? Physician heal thyself.

Dude you are the one who has been raving and ranting about a bunch of kids whose only crime is that they want peace ... remember I didn`t attack you, you attacked me... all for what? That I supported those kids? Should we go back and dig up the post where you started attacking me unprovoked? Still my posts are way more decent and civil then you can ever hope to be. I am not the one who is constantly referring to `licking of soles` and `drawing room nobodies`...

So much for a sense of fairness...

scott,

granted Allah is al Rahman and ar Rahim and He CAN forgive whomsoever He wills but He has Himself said in His Book --in numerous verses --that the Unbelievers in the Hereafter are going to Hell; since He is also The Truthful and since contradictions are impossible for Him-Glorious is He!--it is therefore established Muslim belief of the Ahlus Sunnah w`al Jama`ah that the Unbelievers are in the Hellfire.

***

In THIS life if a Unbeliever does good he is rewarded by Allah but in the Next Life the Mercy of Allah is only for the Believers as He Himself has said in His Book and as His Messenger has explained--Allah bless him and give him peace.

**

first do something then talk about.....dont make tall claims now about things which u have nt even done..........so STOP comparing yourself with him. You are just being delusional over here. and by the way u dont even know your own type how can u comment on what type i am. As for your progressive and modernist approach i can see what it amounts to with the tolerance level you have.
cheers
raza

Naqshbandi,

I consider Bhagat Singh a great martyr for the cause of freedom of our land. He is a shaheed to me... as for Islam... I am a Muslim but I don`t look at everything with the lens of Islam.

-Manto

Mohammed Ali Jinnah at 23 years of age:

(Quoted from Stanley Wolpert`s Jinnah of Pakistan, page 16-17)

`Jinnah rented a reasonable room in the Apollo Railway Hotel on Charni Road within walking distance of the High court, where he spent most of his days auditing the advocacy of others and awaiting his first client... Virtually nothing is known of the young Barrister`s first three years in practice. By 1900 however his professional promise was held `in High esteem` by a most influential friend who introduced him to Bombay`s acting advocate-general, John Molesworth Macpherson. The latter took an immediate liking to young Jinnah and invited him to work in his office. It was the first such invitation MacPherson ever extended to an Indian.... Macpherson`s confidence and support came as beacon of hope at a low point in Jinnah`s early struggles to establish himself.`


And we know that Jinnah reached the pinnacle of whatever he did... becoming one of the most successful advocates in the British Empire establishing a highly lucrative practice both at India and at the Bar in England. His distinguished political career first as a committed Congresswallah, and an Indian Nationalist and later on as a Muslim Leaguer and the founder of the new nation...

Don`t you think he also had his fair share of Razzz-type people who declared : ``you are a NOBODY .......with nothing but arm chair idealism and criticism to his name``... but in the final assessment Razzz type people didn`t amount to much.

-Manto

lest you get any ideas... that last `has` should really be a `hasn`t`

Razzz,

Like I said, no point projecting your inadequacies on me... if Mr. Banker cum Economist like yourself has amounted to much in life, doesn`t mean everyone else is a loser like you

-Manto

anuradha:

...a `poet and a dreamer` are in short supply here:)...welcome and please stay and contribute...(but if you do try to develop a thick skin)

rgds

t

Naqshbandi miya remember these lines ``In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful``..
Do you think that a most benevolent God is so narrow minded so as to bestow His mercy only on the ``Believers``?
He is in control of everything and is perfectly capable of bestowing His infinite Mercy and Forgiveness to whomever He chooses. That is why He is called the All-Powerful and Most-Merciful. Almighty God has created the Universe for man, and as such wants the best for all human beings.
Remember Islam condemns pride and self-righteousness, since Almighty God is the only judge of human righteousness.

So my brother drop this unholy display of self righteousness...

ylh--if you wish to continue thinking of bhagat singh as a shaheed that is your right and prerogative. After you, we all have to go to our own graves and answer. But what disturbed me was your comment, ``I don`t care about the Islamic definition``. Surely, as a self-proclaimed Muslim shouldn`t you care?

**

#347 by tahmed32

well perhaps I will one day, if I can screw up my courage enough... I do write... mostly poems and stories, I post them on a US based writing site which it probably wouldn`t be permissible to name here... most of its members are American and they are extremely gentle and civilised in their comments... the most they`ll say is `sorry I didn`t like it` or `it didn`t do anything for me` and they never say even that without offering some constructive suggestion...

that`s where earlier this year I met a very nice pakistani writer... he was the first, in fact the only pakistani I ever came across in my life... and we became awfully buddy buddy... before I met him pakistan was just a vague incomprehensible enemy to me.. as it is probably to many south indians...

getting back to the point, having seen some of the comments received by godot and jayashree I do believe anyone who submits poems for publishing on chowk should qualify for bravery awards... Vir Chakra if Indian... and whatever your equivalent if Pakistani ;)

RE Manto:
The delusion continues......now uve started comparing urself with jinnah.......get a life man........he ACTUALLY DID something for which he had detractors....you are a NOBODY .......with nothing but arm chair idealism and criticism to his name........so dont even think of categorizing yourself with him. Plus as to your absurd idea about anonymous.....get that out of your mind...i dont need to create some other nick to back myself up....i am quite capable of arguing my case on my own on a forum like this unlike blokes like you who would look up to the ELITE to do your bit.

raza

My review of the book on Bhagat Singh:

http://www.chowk.com/paint_picks_book_review_discussion_form.cgi?pbookid=68

-Manto

Dulla Bhatti bhai,

Thankyou...

Please acknowledge that it is my continuing Jinnah `worship` that led me to learn more about Bhagat Singh. Had it not been for that speech that Jinnah made in defence of Bhagat Singh in the legislative assembly (in my opinion his finest) , I would have never become curious about Bhagat Singh. I never drove down the locals, but I did try and appease the Sindhis that is true... By the way, I still prefer Urdu to Punjabi, and English to Urdu... that is a personal choice... though I am fluent in all three.

Also with regard to your name ... is the name Dullah Bhatti the same as the great hero Abdullah Bhatti of Pindi Bhattian who fought against Akbar the Mughal?



Razzz

My comment about your diction, only came after the continuous abuse you heaped on me. If you can`t take it, then restrain yourself in the first place...

As for your `drawing room` comment... what is the difference... Jinnah had his detractors in Ataullah Shah Bukhari, and Ahrar Party, and I have you and your imaginary net buddy ie Anonymous.

-Manto

Bhagat Singh was a freedom fighter for his country which included Pakistan during his life time. He was hanged in 1931. The name Pakistan was invented few years later by Rehmat Ali. In other words he was fighting to free your land from British when you did not even know its name. He fought for freedom of Lahore from British when he was in college there...it is shame that people who have grown up less than a mile from Lahore central jail don`t know about him. Manto, kudos to you for recognizing that. I was very critical of ylh when he used to put down locals and their heroes and worship jinnah like devotees of mata naina devi. But you are a changed man. Good for you. Baba Nanak was a great man to take birth, and Bhagat Singh was a great man to die fighting for and in your land.

Not to forget his elitist mentality....or rather elitist revering ability.....now the delusional geek is actually claiming to find faults in others diction........come up with better points to prove......thanks for the support anonymous.
cheers
raza

now we ve got a drawing room sherlock holmes in the making........god this man could do anything according to him sitting in his chair. Talk about tall claims.

raza

This anonymous chap seems to appear at the same time as razz, and seems to have the same flaws in diction and English language ability as razz... whats going on?

What is that mohavra... doobtay ko tinkay kaa sahara? Does it matter that the two people who make the least sense on this website are agreeing with each other?

-Manto

Razzz

Don`t worry ... I am very confident of the role of my own family especially in the Pakistan Movement. Both sides were Muslim modernists and progressives who played a positive role in the Pakistan Movement...


-Manto

yep ! couldnt agree more with razz! let me tell mr manto bride sumthig about the myopic views and ignorance that he likes to accuse others of! myopia is being deluded by the spectres of peace which mean little to the average non drawing room non aircondition conditioned man! ppl who would rather have a ``piece`` of bread rather than peace! ppl who never theless atake pride in their country for wat its has given them how ever little it be! ignorance is accussing others of not knowing their facts just becausde they cant be accepted! ignorance is dismissing anythig that is not to ure tastes as fanatic and fundo! dude you pose to be the big professor in the play ground i dont think u know the workings of the playground! my advice is stikk to the drawing room and live in ure elitist angrez ki bund choomnai walee world and allow the more realistic and practical to show you how things work where the ac dont run!! coz dahling... i think its time u cane off that idealistic high horse and soaked up the sun (and i dont mean tanning my spoilt peeted dearie) i mean hot blistrering sun! the kinda heat that makes u thirst for water youd rather have than dream about peaxce u cant have! tell u wat!?? stop lecturing us about patriotism and how learned you are and how expensive the feathers up ures are and start actiually practically considering all this poeace bull crap and how food would be a better option for this nation you so dearly love! and tell u wat! lay off those who know wat theyre saying just coz u dont like it! i believe thats only good drawing room manners sumthig i am sure ud love to achieve!
au revior and love to all

Lets not get to the ancestors (idealogical or others) bit over here cz in your case we wldnt be even able to comment on that...cz u dont even know about urs urself...so lets drop it. Plus where have i in my posts acted as a religious theologian.........think before speaking.

cheers
raza

...hahaha....manto is schooling razzz...

Re: Manto

Since when did opting for a practical and pragmatic approach started getting one labeled as a religious hate mongering fanatic.......did i ever say i want WAR, DEATH of hindus.......the whole of kashmir to be given to pakistan or even a MMA govt in pakistnan. I just want a relationship with INDIA on an equal basis wihtout the threat of war being imposed on us. Just reconsider where you are coming in from
cheers
raza

Errata:

Second line should read: `I didn`t know one had to rub his/her contributions in everyone`s face.

The very last line should read: `not to win the praise of hatemongering fanatics posing as patriots`.

-Manto

Chowk Wallahs,

I am sorry. I didn`t know that one has to rub his contributions into everyone`s face...

I can assure people like Razzz however, that what little I have done for Pakistan off of this website, in various capacities including as a teacher and a writer in various newspapers, was done for the sake of Pakistan alone, and not win the praise of hate mongering fanatics...


-Manto

Second line in the previous post should read: `Since you don`t know me...`

Razzz,

Dude like I said the only Drawing critics are people like you who keep harping on about Kashmir and trying to pull back anyone who doesn`t share your myopic world view. Since you don`t me, I suggest you keep your assumptions to yourself. Believe me I am certainly no mirror image of you, so don`t even try and project your own inadequacies on me. We will let the people of Pakistan decide who amounts to what...

This kind of hog wash is not new from people of your ideological bent. Your ancestors abused a certain Mr. Jinnah, Bar at Law in much the same manner... calling him drawing room leader.. well he proved it to you chaps didn`t he, destroying the religious theologians at the polls...


-Manto

While we are on the topic of Tipu Sultan ... how many here know of his great great great grand daughter the brave Noor Inayat Khan, who led the French Resistance and was executed by the Nazis... it was only a few months ago I found out about this brave princess...

Read her life story...
http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/SOEnoor.htm

Tipu`s bloodline was one of valor and courage.

-Manto

Re: Manto
++++
It is shameless to see novices on chowk second guessing those like me who have come of age on this website.. If anyone has any doubts about my patriotism, for all I care they can go to hell... My patriotism, real genuine and progressive has been evolutionary... but it has been there for all to see on this website since October 1999... as ylh! ++++


Thanks for making my point.!!!!! It seems you have only come of age on this website as a drawing room critic and a elite *** kisser.....as for the rest of YOUR amazing patriotism and accomplishments .....i wonder if it amounts to anything. And kiddo...if you think having read and posted on this site for a little while longer then me makes you a WELL ACCOMPLISHED person then i pity you. GOD!!!! how naive can you get..........to argue that being on some forum for a while makes you a somewhat REVERED figure on that site.........this is precisely the elitist approach i talk about that you having availed some opportunity try to restrict it to you and your kind and hog it.....SO FRANKLY SPEAKING pin a medal on ur chest saying i have been on chowk for SOOO Long and even then i havent managed to get anything done except lick soles and post pseudo messages.

raza

anuradha #343 Thanks for your kind words. It is too bad that Gresham`s Law (Bad currency drives out good currency) in monetary economics applies in case of chowk as well (Bad posters drive out good ones). Anyway, welcome to chowk in your writing capacity (as opposed to in your reading capacity only), and hope you will write something (maybe an article?).

Dear Naqshbandi

Bhagat Singh is a shaheed to me... I don`t care about the Islamic definition.

ylh,

that comment about slander of hazrat tipu sultan shaheed rahmatullah alayhi was NOT aimed at you.

***

but as for your praise of bhagat singh--i am not familiar with him but a kafir no matter how `good` he is can not by definition be a shaheed as shahadat is only for Muslims who are killed in the way of Allah.

***
so maybe by opposing the brits he did well but he still wasn`t a shaheed.
**

#336
tahmed bhaisaheb...

thank you... you are another person I`ve come to really like and respect in the
months I`ve been invisible here... :) in fact I feel as though I`ve known you all for
ages...

the amount of abuse traded around here put me off from participating in the
discussions though, and I wouldn`t have done so today either except I very much
wanted to cheer on Manto... he was getting such a lot of flak for expressing sane
and reasonable views.

Totally unfair it seems to me the way those who speak the language of moderation
and decency get it in the neck from both the sides... while extremists on either
side get away with murder.

Romair,

Legally Sindh`s right of self determination was settled in 1947 when the Sindh Assembly voted for Pakistan. Subsequently PPP which is a mainstream Pakistani party has won the most vote in Sindh proving that Sindhis remain in favor of the union....

-Manto

People like Arjunm just like to pick fights.. I guess this is second nature to Arjun mian.

The point I was trying to make is that does it make sense for Razz to take personal pot shots at me? I have said nothing to offend him... if I happen to like the current peace initiative, you don`t have to agree with me, but should I be slandered meaninglessly? and accused of being less patriotic than anyone? The truth is that I was always a Pakistan nationalist, I will always be ... I have fought my share of pitched battles with the Indians here on Chowk... but now that I have added an element of rational sense to my national sense... I am being accused of being a drawing room idealist?? I think Razz projects his own image onto others... I had concluded that the kind of confrontational approach that people like Razz and the hawks propose we take, will never succeed... and it will only hurt Pakistan... People who don`t tire of speaking about Kashmir... fine.. it might be the core issue between Pakistan and India... but do you really think the world would allow Kashmir to separate from a functioning Secular democracy like India and join an authoritarian self avowed Islamic state? Maybe if Pakistan was a democracy things would have been different... So what is the core issue then?

Those who talk about Kashmir and its centrality are the ones who are the drawing room idealists... Pakistan`s people are dying of poverty... Since we started our brilliant Jehadic strategy in Kashmir, Pakistan`s population under the poverty line has increased from 17% in 1989 to 40% in 2003. Pakistan`s human development indicators have placed it below Nepal and Bangladesh. (And don`t start with the bias in the HDI, it was created by the famous Pakistani economist Dr. Mahbub ul Haq)... Law and order has gone down significantly in Pakistan... despite the best efforts population bomb is still ticking... so we were wronged in Kashmir... shi-t happens! Should we sacrifice the development of entire Pakistan for that piece of land?

With that said, the final solution of Kashmir is the one prescribed by the UN... ie Plebiscite... I believe that. But I am not ready to sacrifice Pakistan on a matter of principle... if `Drawing room` idealists and so called Patriots like Razzz can do it... the plight of 145 million Pakistanis is on their hands...


Let us talk facts... let us not waste time on esoteric issues...

-Manto


PS Ironically, the `elitist` kids that Razz speaks of , also were pretty adamant about discussing Kashmir.

sarwar #335: ``To which Advani replied, ``I was born in Karachi and, after partition, moved to India. Why not let the people of Sindh decide whether they want to continue to be a part of Pakistan?`` At which point Musharraf changed the subject, knowing full well that the Sindhis would vote for independence.``

I think this would actually be a good idea. The people of Sind should be allowed to vote whether they want to continue with Pakistan. As should anyone else. My guess is that an overwhelming amount of Sindhis (Mohajir and rural) would want to remain with Pakistan.

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People Razzz must be a psychic... or maybe he has a crystal ball... he has so accurately described me without even knowing me or having met me even once... he must have received Ilham from God... too bad if he was to claim Ilham from God he would automatically become a Non-Muslim under the wonderful constitution of Pakistan.

It is shameless to see novices on chowk second guessing those like me who have come of age on this website.. If anyone has any doubts about my patriotism, for all I care they can go to hell... My patriotism, real genuine and progressive has been evolutionary... but it has been there for all to see on this website since October 1999... as ylh!

-Manto

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anuradha #330 I wish normal people like you would write more often on chowk. The posters representing south india on chowk have to date been poor specimen of the human race indeed. They are almost uniformly obsessed with hatreds and complexes and devoid of any decency (e.g. we have one guy - arjun - who seemed besides himself with joy at the accidental death of two pakistani soldiers) or humor (unless one thinks that laughing at the death of anyone is humor).

Having met many fine south indian people, I know these people represent only the lunatic fringe. I hope you will write more on chowk, and help set a more positive tone to discussions concerning India-Pakistan relations.

yes all these people can do is REMAIN idealistic, sit in their drawing rooms, be anti establishment and anti state because thats the KOOL thing to do for PSEUDOS........and pin their hopes on the ELITES which in the past have contributed nothing to improve the situation between the two countries.........and ofcourse RANT alllll the time about their so called patriotism.
cheers
raza

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Veeresh

I am tempted to say that Jinnah got sentimental and decided to honor Bhagat Singh, whose cause he had once championed... but Jinnah didn`t let sentiments come in the way of his work.

So I don`t know... but I am glad 23rd March, our national day, celebrating the Lahore Resolutuon is also the shahadat of Bhagat Singh, Lahore`s greatest martyr.

-Manto

Hi Yasser . . . ever wondered why Pakistan`s National Day (23rd March) is the same as Bhagat Singh`s Shaheedi?

anuradha,

Thankyou for your kind words. They mean a lot to me ... our common hopes for peace and freedom tie us in a much greater bond than linguistic, religious or cultural bonds.

-Manto

To Manto

Hi! I`ve been an unseen presence on chowk for the past few months following all
interacts with great interest. Just wanted to say how much I appreciate your
posts. And those of many other fine pakistanis like you.

As a south Indian hindu, I can`t say I`ve anything much in common with pakistanis,
unlike the northerners, no shared cultural, regional, linguistic or religious background
whatsoever, but I do share your hopes of peace and friendship between our two countries.
For all our sakes.

People to people contact is definitely one way to get there. After all when we meet the
unknown enemy and see he is no monster but a normal human being just like us, it
certainly diminishes the desire to drop an atomic bomb on his head ;)

Here`s hoping on both our independence days that all your visions for pakistan, and
for indo-pak amity, are realised...
and even if the cynics are proved right and your dreams remain just that, heck at least
you are the nobler for having dreamed those dreams...

warmhearted idealistic young people like you are the hope of this sad subcontinent...
keep that much maligned flag of peace and love flying high!

cheers... :)

Stuka,

I find it sad and Ironic that we in Pakistani Punjab denigrate the greatest ruler this region had because he was a Sikh, while the Indians in South India denigrate the finest ruler that region had because he was a Muslim. Maybe Alephnull is right... but that is certainly not my view.

Tipu Sultan and Maharaja Ranjit Singh were great men... the similarities are more than overwhelming... both were modernizers of the Military, while both were deeply religious in their own belief, both were extremely tolerant of other faiths, both were pragmatic enough to look towards the French who had a significant presence in their armies. Both fought resiliently and both were fiercely independent... If the Sher-e-Mysore, and Sher-e-Punjab had succeeded, the map of South Asia would have been very different and the History would have been written on our own terms. Like any pragmatic ruler, both were forced to appeal to religion while fighting an outward threat, but it is how remarkably free their actions are of faith that makes them unique... Yes Tipu did talk of Jehad when he sent an embassy to the King of Afghanistan, and the Ottoman Sultan... but he didn`t talk of Jehad when he was dealing with the young leader of France, a fella named `Napoleon Bonaparte` towards the very end of his (Tipu`s) reign... he didn`t talk of Jehad when he appealed to the Peshwas of the Marhatta Kingdom to join him in his struggle against the British. Tipu is on the record to have built many temples... the pandits at the temple in Seringapatam affirm that he used to visit the temple there not out of religious conviction but to express solidarity with the majority of his populace. It is there he played holi with his Hindu friends. Persianized he was, after all he was a Muslim and he had the right to his choice of culture.. just like we are westernized and it is our choice.. Persian culture was still invogue..


To denigrate Tipu and his brilliant father as adventurers from North Punjab is ok... but no one can deny that their rule was far better for the masses of Mysore than the dynasty that ruled the land before him.


-Manto

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PS: Naqshbandi, I would like you to show me which so called Muslim has slandered Tipu Sultan on this board?

PS: And Tipu Sultan`s full name was not Muhammad Tipu Sultan. His name was Fateh Ali Tipu Sultan.

anonymous,

Dude... Ayesha Jalal and Khalid Bin Sayeed don`t write fiction literature nor are they western writers... they are historians who are Pakistanis. I am being critical of my OWN homeland... because I love it, and I want it to succeed... I am not going to gloss over our faults... I am not going to sweep the dirt under the carpet.

Rabbani is a liar, and it is people like him who try and pass off Islamist lies as History, who are Pakistan`s greatest enemies. They have cut off our youth from the facts..


Naqshbandi,

Mir Jaffar was not found in the ranks of Tipu Sultan. Mir Jaffar was Nawab Siraj ud daula`s General, and was later installed as the Nawab at Murshidabad. He probably never even came into a 500 miles radius of Tipu.

-Manto

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A very happy independence day to all Indians and Pakistanis on this site. Hope you had/have a nice day

Vijay

#317 Stuka

{{They were different only in the sense of geography and religion. Both were expansionist rulers.}}

No sir. There is a far more salient difference. In Punjab, Ranjit Singh was a local, a Sikh ruling Punjabis and in the main appointing Punjabis, of whatever religion, as his subordinates, with his roots firmly in the soil. It is to his eternal credit that he gave the Afghans, traditional foes of Punjab, a monumental thrashing. Whereas Hyder Ali in Mysore was an adventurer with North Indian (apparently Punjabi) and eventually middle-eastern antecedents. He and his son Tipu had no ancestral ties to Travancore/Kerala at all and were rank interlopers there. On attaining power in Mysore, these two, in the typical fashion of Islamicate rulers in various parts of India, adopted Persianised manners and culture, which are totally unrepresentative of Karnataka (let alone Kerala., which they tried but failed to conquer). In further accordance with the familiar Islamicate pattern, Tipu described his campaign against Travancore as a jehad and tried to gift the perfect religion to the locals, massacring those (not just `Hinoods`, BTW) who declined.

{{``In any case the historical record of Islamicate dynasties in India has been abysmal. …”

A fair case can be made of the exact sentiment for the likes of the Peshwas, the Sikhs etc. The term dynasty is used loosely by you ... British rule had its pros and cons. Beyond minor details, the pros and cons hold trye for Islamic as well as non Islamic dynasties.}}

Yes, I am using the term dynasty loosely (similarly with ‘Persianate’).

There is a specific pattern characterising five/six odd centuries of Persianate rule in various parts of India, which is that, without fail, they imported worthless fortune-hunters from Central Asia, Persia, Afghanistan and the like to lord it over the locals as administrators. Also, without fail, Persianate dynasties sooner or later throw up religious fanatics like Aurangzeb (or Zia-ul-Haq, to use a more recent example). This is the abysmal record I was referring to. Kerala was very fortunate to completely escape the joys of Persianate rule – Tipu was the closest they got.

The Marathas got as far south as Thanjavur (which was, for a period, their southern capital). The families of the administrators they sent south became completely Tamilised in language and culture – it is difficult (for an outsider, at any rate) to tell them apart from other locals. A striking contrast from the normal pattern with those who came from Central Asia seeking their fortunes in the service of Persianate rulers.

British rule had plenty of cons – the greatest of which two centuries of impoverishment by the giant sucking sound – but it did have the one great benefit of extinguishing Persianate political power once and for all. That was essential to eventual representative government of Indians by and for Indians.

The Tiger of Mysore, the great ghazi and shaheed, His Excelleny Hazrat Muhammad Tipu Sultan--the pride of the musulmaans of al Hind and al Sind, the great martyr, may Allah perfume his resting place and raise his stations even higher. He is far above any criticism which sick minds can throw at him as he enjoys a life which we can not even imagine. (It is understandable why the horrible hinoods hate such a great Muslim ruler who kept the British at bay for so long--because he was a great Muslim warrior but it is sickening and sad to see so called Muslims also slandering him). He was unfortunate to have traitors like Mir Jafar and Mir Sadiq in his ranks--it seems their ideological descendents are still alive and well today to slander such great shuhada as Hazrat Haider Ali and his son Tipu Sultan--rahmatullah alayhima wa ridwaan.

razz #307 you write ``Kashmir IS the core issue because our politicians, generalists and nationalists have made it one....``

I see that you avoid saying ``because the people of Pakistan`` or the ``people of Kashmir`` consider this to be the core issue. Instead you talk about ``politicians, generalists (I assume you mean generals) and nationalists.

From this it is clear that you are precisely the type of scumbag people rant about on chowk when they talk about the hijacking of Pakistan. That is, you identify the national interest not with the interest of the people of Pakistan, but with the subset of individuals who happen to have come to power through force. There is nothing left to discuss, since you and I have different goals: I am concerned with the interests of the vast majority of Pakistanis, you are concerned with the interests of the 0.001 percent of the population that happens to be in power. End of discussion.

mantolives_
awwk (shakes me head) listen homie all i had ta say was lets stop denouncing our books and stuff. there is absolutely nothing wrong with liking ayesha jalals book or khalid bin sayeeds indeed i admire such literature although i have yet to finish reading either! ure right i am frustarted. frustrated at how naive and stupid all of us are in beimng so carelessly over critical of our homeleand! the fact that we all feel so strongly against most things in our country yet do minimum about it is a true proof of our doublestandardness and sorry mate but hypocrisy gets my steam going! no hard feelings but i do find it a little harsh to be dismissed as an ignorant fanatic just coz i have a different view! and well while we can claim rabbanis text book aint all that good a little encouragement to its attempt might go a long way! you might want to check out its new version it sure is a proffessional display if unapealing to you! neways your the master of your own gutt!! :):) s`all fine by me! as for my sanity?? talk about claiming other ppl dont know wwhat theyre talking about! but like i said common cornered response! guess i m not the only one frustarted and confused around here nor the only ignorant one somewhere along the line a manto lives.........:):) ciao

Aleph Null:

``There are very big differences between the cases of Ranjit Singh and Hyder Ali/Tipu Sultan. Their situations are in no way comparable.``

They were different only in the sense of geography and religion. Both were expansionist rulers.


``Tipu was not above using the justification of jehad when it suited him. He is rightly execrated in Kerala, and not just by Hindus. ``

Similarly, Ranjit Singh used the call of the Khalsa to fight against the Pathans. Just as Tipu has a negative portrayal in parts of Kerala, Ranjit Singh`s benevolence did not extend to Pathans or even to the battles fought with the hill Rajas of Kangra or for that matter the Dogras before they swore allegience to him. Religion was used as a tool for conquest by both and yet within the parameters of internal administration, both were secular.

``In any case the historical record of Islamicate dynasties in India has been abysmal. It was absolutely essential for India’s eventual self-rule that the likes of Tipu be crushed. If it had to be done by the British, so be it. ``

A fair case can be made of the exact sentiment for the likes of the Peshwas, the Sikhs etc. The term dynasty is used loosely by you. If you are referring to a system of monarcchy, then every individual ruler has to be similarly assessed. British rule had its pros and cons. Beyond minor details, the pros and cons hold trye for Islamic as well as non Islamic dynasties.

Mantolives #310

{{From what I understand, which has now been reinforced by your post, is that Ranjit Singh was a Tipu Sultan like figure... only from my own city.}}


Stuka #311

{{It is interesting that you compare Ranjit Singh to Tipu Sultan. There are Hindus who demonize Tipu as a Moslem Jehadi which is far from the truth….Similarly Tipu Sultan did not attack Malabari Hindus because of their religion, he did so to expand his kingdon. The religious bent is provided later.}}


There are very big differences between the cases of Ranjit Singh and Hyder Ali/Tipu Sultan. Their situations are in no way comparable. Tipu was not above using the justification of jehad when it suited him. He is rightly execrated in Kerala, and not just by Hindus. In any case the historical record of Islamicate dynasties in India has been abysmal. It was absolutely essential for India’s eventual self-rule that the likes of Tipu be crushed. If it had to be done by the British, so be it.

Yogiraj,

You are right... but India is on the right track as you admit. My aim is to put Pakistan on the right track as well. Slow progress is better than no progress.


anonymous,

While we are on the topic, explain to me what books did I mention which struck you the wrong way? I mentioned Khalid Bin Sayeed`s formative phase... show me how that is anti-Pakistan... The problem is your confusion. You are so confused and frustrated that you have lost all sanity. As for my comments about you... I do feel if a person who criticizes something who he doesn`t know anything about is an ignorant fanatic. That is just a gutt feeling I have.. I might be wrong.


Rabbani`s textbook is a horrible book, indicative of the fact that O level standards have gone down in a spiral ...

-Manto

Mantolives,

``#293 Now I`ve seen everything...

To think that one day, I, ylh, an avid Jinnah admirer, and a proud Pakistani nationalist, would be denounced as anti-Pakistan by an ignorant and uneducated fanatic just because I support the facts and I support peacemakers?``

Friend,

Do not worry. We have equal or more idiots on our side. We just seem to have a more tolerent populace.

Come and visit India once my friend, and I will take you to places where there is no sanitation, healthy drinking water or a hospital. And that to me is what my nation and my people need.

I would have to accept one point though. We do think we are going on a right path, and this is not a browny point I am scoring. Problem is we are slow..too slow... agonizingly slow.

Yogiraj Patil

312

Yeah dude.. whatever...

We all know who is cornered...

-Manto

manto lives _
tutut looks like mr manto lover took things to heart! look my good man, in no way am i saying all the books published by oxford or cambridge have some ulterior anti muslim motive but if we are going to be denouncing our own publications blatantly then we really shouldnt expect much! in ure ``sophisticated`` tastes u forgot books like the pathway to pakistan and the supremacy of leadership ``a tributre to jinnah`` low quality paper and pakistani printing kind of makes it agreeably unpalatable at first site but trust me the material in it is worth evry cheap penny it costs! my point being that not all pakistani books suk and none that i know dubb ole jinnah as a mullah on the contrary they highlight the fact that many a time the mullah types have been against his ideologies even ure beloved favourite writer for whom u drip with affection yes i mean rabbanni! so u know take a minute and think about thiungs before u so carelessly dismiss pakistani books and remeber there are always people to criticise us so why should we do it ourselves! and that i believe is a common trait in all u stupid naive we know it all coz hum angreezee boltai hain elitists!
asa for calling me ignorant thats ok i am used to it most of u hoity toities revert to that logo wen cornered :):) i m kinda immune to it! dont forget to chekk out these books love
bubye

Bhagat Singh is a hero in the Indian lexicon. Unfortunately he was also a socialist. It is interesting that you compare Ranjit Singh to Tipu Sultan. There are Hindus who demonize Tipu as a Moslem Jehadi which is far from the truth. Ranjit Singh did not victimize Pathans because they were Muslim. He just wanted to capture their land. Similarly Tipu Sultan did not attack Malabari Hindus because of their religion, he did so to expand his kingdon. The religious bent is provided later.

Tthere is no uniformity amongst people. Look at Aurangzeb and Dara Shikoh, two brothers and what a great contrast.

Stuka,

Thankyou for that information. You are right... running down Ranjit Singh is a post-Pakistan phenomenon, as a matter of fact, only of recent (25 year) origin. However I know Pakistani historians and columnists who glorify the great man. Like I said, my personal view of Ranjit Singh is based on little observations I have made, like reading the slab at the Badshahi mosque, and I have concluded that Ranjit Singh has been demonized unfairly. Ranjit Singh`s Mari is a historic shrine and a landmark in Lahore. From what I understand, which has now been reinforced by your post, is that Ranjit Singh was a Tipu Sultan like figure... only from my own city. Isn`t it amazing that my generation has been divorced from the knowledge of great men of the land that is now Pakistan... while we glorify distant heroes?

I was introduced to another great son of the soil, Bhagat Singh, by accident... while reading up on Jinnah`s life... It was Jinnah`s speech in the legislative assembly in defence of Bhagat Singh, which made me curious as to who this Bhagat Singh was ( I had only heard the name before)... I found him to be an amazing hero, a revolutionary in Che Guevera mould.


-Manto

re: manto

{To think that one day, I, ylh, an avid Jinnah admirer, and a proud Pakistani nationalist, would be denounced as anti-Pakistan by an ignorant and uneducated fanatic just because I support the facts and I support peacemakers? }


...hahahaha...i told you dude...you are no match for religious fundos...

Bharat, re: posts 243-245

Ha ha ha. Blimey, calm down, easy tiger, easy. Did someone electrocute your nuts or trim the hedge inside your nostrils?

And listen, I`m sorry for my language. My slap-tit, slash-back was in reference to a ritual beating some of our Muslim brethren give themselves at a particular time of the year. I didn’t want to offend them since I see all of them as part of my extended family. Hence my crypto comment.

Yes, I read the post and I understood it very well. But as far as I`m concerned, there`s no difference. I don`t care if there`s a parallel or not. This is going to sound extremely wonky but Pakistan bases itself on religion, or at least certain elements do. India likes to call itself secular. Therefore, her problems are, supposedly, with countries - not religions.

The Paks didn’t let a Hindu in. God knows why not. They prolly thought you were a RAW agent. My father wasn`t let into India because of his country of origin, even though he`s been in Britain for over 40 years. The Indians prolly thought he was an ISI agent. I don’t know and I don’t care for the specific details either.

What I do know is that the acts committed by the Pakistani and the Indian officials in regards to you, Dost and my father were stupid and uncalled for.

And I believe Faisal`s post should be another slap on your face. So, I will say it again:

Welcome to the world of India and Pakistan.

And don`t bull$hit us, you’re not a Paaki. Chee chee chee, with language like that, I refuse to believe that you’re a 60 year old fella who`s been around the world. 120 countries, 120 languages, 120 cultures and 120 collections of mannerisms and yet you spoke to a youngster like that. Shame on you. I`m not even half your age. Chee chee chee.

Any 60-year-old who wrote what you wrote (I`m too ashamed to even mention it) deserves to get his zimmerframe confiscated, his haemorrhoid cream privileges withheld and his dentures wired. You’re just another 17-year-old muth-maar delinquent.

Umer M.

RE tahmed 32 :
Kashmir IS the core issue because our politicians, generalists and nationalists have made it one....along with other geo political factors. Its obviously not an ideal situation and we need to address the poverty issue first which is more important but that cannot be tackled till we have done away with the problem of an angry neighbour.......solve the kashmir issue.....achieve peace and then we can all spend on hospitals and education rather then tanks and aircrafts. and the correct answer over here is that I HAVE brains unlike u and i can see that governments would keep on spending on defence till we have solved the kashmir issue and thats why we need to rid them off that excuse.

cheers
raza

Manto: Some information on Ranjit Singh. The running down of Ranjit Singh must be a Post Pakistan phenomenon. If you research Punjabi works written by Muslim Punjabis they do glorify him. Pathans on the other hand will not glorify him. Unlike Indo-Pak, the histroy of Punjab cannot be divided neatly into Hindu/Sikh Versus Muslim.

The Sikhs fought more battles with the Hindu Rajas of the hills (present day Himachal) then they did with the Mughals. The latter recieves more importance because it was the capital. Religion did play a role if forming sides, but then again, it was one amongst many factors. Anyway, read on....,



Charles Hugal in his book, ``The Court and Camp of Ranjit Singh``, writes that, ``Ranjit Singh ruled his kingdom according to the Sikh tenets. All the important positions were given to Hindus, Muslims and Sikhs, entirely based on merit. Even his main advisors were three famous Muslim brothers: Fakir Aziz-ud-Din, his foreign minister; Fakir Nur-ud-Din, his home minister; Fakir Imam-ud-Din, his custodian of the arsenals. Forty-six senior Army officers and two top ranking Generals were Muslims.

One General was French and score of military officers were Europeans. In police and civil services he has about one hundred Muslim officers alone. Hindus too, used to hold many key positions in Sarkar-e-Khalsa. Ranjit Singh was secular through-and-through.

Since he had lost his one eye in childhood, due to small pox, he used to remark jokingly about himself that,

``God Willed that as a true Sikh I should look upon all religions with one eye``.``

**********

Sayyed Waheed-ud-Din, the great grandson of Fakir Aziz-ud-Din writes,

``On one occassion, Maharaja and Fakir were out walking on the outskirts of Lahore when they met a bullock cart carrying what looked like a huge book. The Maharaja stopped the cart and asked the driver, what he was carrying.

``Maharaja``, replied the driver, ``I am a calligraphist and this book is a manuscript of the Holy Quran, which is my entire life`s work. I am on my way to Hyderabad to sell it to the Muslim king of that country.

Turning to Fakir Aziz-ud-Din the Maharaja said,

``This man seems to think that there is nobody on this side of