Growing up Muslim

this dichotomy between cultural/religious/gender biased traditions and the environment of the West is exactly why most second generation desis are confused.

they either rebel and start doing bad things or they isolate themselves into islamic fundo types.

the best thing that desi parents can do is to show children the consequences of doing bad and the benefits of doing good, without bringing religion and culture into it.

i`d rather have a child who helps an old lady carry groceries than a child who recites verses from the Quran

re: Razz

it seems to me you barely read the Quran. Try surah-e-nisah--for starters. do a search on chowk and you will find many articles about the anti-women stances. Also, try reading some good authors on ancient religions like Judaism, Christainity and Islam and their stances on women. Iqra is always a good idea. and yes do also try to keep your comments to what I wrote in THIS article rather than what Rushdie wrote. How come the Rushdie label is instantly attached to any writer that says something a bit different from your world view.

Naqshbandi

This knee jerk defense of Islam is hardly necessary. This article was NOT about Islam, it was about growing up AS an ethnic identity in this case Muslim and what it might means to the children who are brainwashed by shame and guilt. If you choose to follow a religion--go ahead, it is your choice. Just as it is my choice to care about children who are pressured by parents into attending madrassahs and the unthinking acceptance of guilt, intolerance and dogma. Not all parents, not all madrassahs may do that to that degree.

Kaurasch
yes. is there a practical alternative? can something be done to reconcile these contradictions?

Urstruly
I am shocked at the conclusions you drew from this article. Nowhere have I said that the culture here is completely thought through and we should drop our identity and adopt it completely. It is a very difficult question that usually people address by the default madrassah. Here there is a basic respect for others, a tolerance and reason. Here, the system doesnt care which religion one comes from--unlike India or Pakistan where we discriminate on every measure under the sun. My desire was to point at the issue and perhaps gain everyone`s insight on what strategy, tools and attitudes can be used to handle this dilemma. Inductive logic starts with a few to a generalization--ethnographies and qualitative use the same methodology. It is an acceptable form of thought in social sciences.

#12 by annieqb on August 7, 2003 11:10am PT

``Maybe you don`t know that California and some other southwestern states were originally part of Mexico - the Spanish language and culture really are part of California`s roots. ``

By that stupid logic....... The whole palestine + judaiah + samaria + etcetra + etcetra were really jewish .... let`s all convert all of middle east in to Israel.

(The previous post was deleted/missed by author censor/editor--or maybe an honest mistake. Let us give them the benefit of doubt) This is not the same one.

Godot:
Salutes & compliments.
It is always productive to be a member of the congregation and thus bring test ones` ideas from within the community. Teaching is a great opportunity to learn as well. Whenever one tries to bring about a change one changes himself/herself as well. Unidirectional dictates are nothing but colonialism, imperialism and white/brown man/womans burden.


Annieqb:17

Very well said.

Someone called from texas yesterday that the admission forms for schools there are in Urdu as well. Asked him to fax these to the oreos in Pakistan. A swarm of spanish and other-language groups is steadily and gingerly pushing its way up north. I was delighted to hear an anglophone, unilingual , that he is leaving south because it was not an english-speaking area anymore. Just as the american-indians were forced to retreat into the jungles, so should these guys be pushed into the concrete jungles

---

a price they must pay for non-assimilation & not going mainstream.

To flaunt and display ones` culture religion and race has gone mainstream. The leading fashion statement in US is being set by the Blacks--(seen your kids lately?)-- the bellweather sign of future leaders. People living in the colonial-warp should expect to be pushed through the cracks. Has it ever occurred to the johnny/jane walkers of Indo-Pak that they themselves are the odd man/woman out?

The blanket just won`t let go. why?

razzz

``Quote me one ayat which has given women a lower status then women. Believe me in Quran women are treated as equal to women....``

paging sigmund! come to page 1

asif

hold off your righteous indignation for a few seconds and please note saima is sharing her experiences in BC...things here in TO or where you are may be slightly different:)

...t

Another Islam bashing article, cleverly disguised! Admitted that we second generation children ARE a bit confused when it comes to cultural things BUT how about those of us who are voluntarily becoming more ``Islamic`` than our parents and deciding to study Islam. This is a phenomenon which is getting more common--the son will have a full beard, imamah sharif, jubba/shalwar kameez, and pray 5 times a day whereas the father will not. Will you condemn all these people who choose to do this whilst being good law abiding citizens of whichever country they are in? And who want to bring up their children in Islamic schools or even in home schools (recommended by Imam Hamza Yusuf) with Islamic morals and ethics? Is that so wrong?

Saima do you know about Imam Hamza Yusuf? [www.zaytuna.org]

This is gross overgeneralization though some of Saima`s observations are true yet others are perceived and yet some others are biased. The body of diaspora, especially, in North America and particularly in Canada is very different from that in Europe. Most of these people (in NA) are highly educated (even by local standards) professionals. The question is why if all the customs and traditions here are so reason-based-common-sense and liberating then why they don`t drop on them like flies drop in the honey. Whereas, the situation with diaspora in Europe was different - they lacked education, hardly anyone of them were professionals and most of them had to work like oxen to make it and they assimilated into local culture more readily than their counterparts in NA. This calls for acute objectivity in our observation and definitely not overgeneralization.

A very thought provoking and well written article which definitely exposes some of the problems in our eastern culture but i have objection to some of the points you raise. First is the allegation which you make of the anti women stance of the quran. Lady have you even ever bothered to read the quran........? ........if you had done so you would PERHAPS if you are unbiased in your approach and dont have any pre concieved of ISLAM being hard on women noticed that there rnt any ANTI women statements in quran. Quote me one ayat which has given women a lower status then women. Believe me in Quran women are treated as equal to women.....if you ever pay closer attention to when the maulvis and the so called ulema talk about women and the restrictions placed on them by Islam they always quote Hadith...( which we know are not always authentic ).....they never use any Quranic ayat for that purpose....because there rnt any......quranic text if read with a little effort will show us that most of the interpretation which has been done by the male dominated clergy has been manipulated....and twisted into the male clergy`s favour....otherwise in quran there is nothing like that at all............if only ppl put more effort in reading quran then reading the so called rushdie style literature which they think is the INNN thing to do they might realize that how quran has been interpreted to the male clergy`s advantage...otherwise there is no such ANTI woment stance in quran..
I feel quite perturbed that such a thing would come from an author who appears to understand the value of books as it is claimed by her.......which in this scenario seems only to be a claim....nothing else........otherwise she wouldnt have given a statement like that without reading the particular thing.



raza

Kaurasach: ghar ghar ehiO agg...koThey te charke haal nai disda...agg disdi ay.:-)

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Good article Saima. However what i would like to know is what are we going to do in trying to rectify something like this? Are we just going to complain or try individually to make a difference? Godot, good job for trying to do something about it.

I personally have been quite vocal on such issues and have made a few friends feel uneasy in front of their wives or girlfriends when i point out their narrow mindedness. Personally, i get a kick out of doing so. I never had a chance in Karachi because they won`t reason. Being a non-Muslim i just could not stomach the so called ``Islamic principals`` that men forced on their wives, sisters and children. Which of course they themselves never followed but hey, how could i oppose as i supposedly had no clue of the ``Islamic Principles``.

I think being a man it is easier for me to make them understand or at least they listen to what i have to say. Some have changed their views to an extent that there is hope for their wives/children in the future. Others, hummmm, will learn it the hard way or best will go backhome.

temporal--

your comments are great. I agree that books do tell a lot, but sometimes the family reads books--but the mental attitude about Islamic morality remains the same. It is curious--it seems they live in two or three different worlds which never meet. You are right, a follow- up a few years later would be telling--and a great use of the Chowk.

Sac--
100% on. Once the kids are at college the parents loosen up.

nazarhayatkhan--
Good parenting is an art. Perhaps the art is of listening.

trinity--
the tension between the sexes is pretty weird. Each act like the other doesnt exist, as though this will make them more moral.

Godot--
Your volunteer effort sounds amazing. Can you tell me what books you will use and a little of the curriculum. I wish I could send my son to that school. You are very welcome to use this article--I hope it is of any use in making a point. This article for me is a beginning. More work can be done to research the attitudes and find more acceptable alternatives.

Parenting is not an easy task and parenting in a foreign land comes with all the more complexity. You want the children to adept to the foreign land and its ways, but you also want the children to learn your culture, language, and religion. The solution in my mind is simple – be involved with your kids. Talk to them, know what they are learning, what they are exposed to and supplement or restrict exposure where needed. I think its OK to want your children to know who they are, to learn your language before they learn a foreign language, learn your culture in addition to the native culture etc. The problem comes if you as the parent feel and therefore impose that one is better than the other. Or you label one as evil and assume all goodness in the other. The problem would certainly come if you depended on a priest to teach your kids lessons on morality!

The problems you have observed in Muslim families are common to all societies in which men and women are not equal partners in general. If the son grows watching his father uncomfortable talking to women then whether or not the father sets any rules the chances are that the son is also going to have difficulty in his relations with women. Similarly if a girl grows watching her mother subordinated to her father’s wishes there is little chance that the girl is going to grow into a confident woman. It is our comforts and discomforts that children pick on most and those become their lifelong complexes. The learning at a Sunday school is quickly forgotten or unlearned as the need to fit in with their peers grows – and I don’t think it leaves long-term dilemmas. Children in general are real smart about knowing the expected behavior in different environments and learn to adjust to it. What I mean is if the child no longer comes home and talks about crushes in school, its not because he/she was told it’s a bad thing at Sunday school, rather its because he/she knows that the parent does not want to know that part of his/her life.

So in my mind the solution is not in replacing Sunday religious schools with Sunday cultural centers. Rather it needs adults specially parents to make small changes in their attitudes. For instance, next time you attend or host a dinner, make sure men and women are mixing and talking to each other. Your children will learn much more from watching you interact then they would at a structured center.

My 2 cents.

Saima

Just a little more thought on the issue.

Bifurcate the religion from culture. In the West, nobody stops the immgrants from following their religious rituals.

As for the culture, what are the Pakistani parents scared off?
The Western society society lays down a premium on virtues like honesty, hard work and truthfulness.
And it looks down upon teenage sex, drugs and extra-marital sex.

The only difference is that all these issues are in the open and discussed. I feel that Pakistani culture is more dangerous because things like child molestation, drugs, rape, extra-marital sex all take place but hush hush - the children and women are simply exploited without their knowing what is happening; or it is case of a forced silence under the society`s or family`s pressure.

The worst aspect of Pakistani culture is that a girl/woman with sexual indiscreation is stigamatized by the society. While the same society looks the other way in case of a man.

At the endof the day, it all boils down to the family value system and upbringing. The excessive controls have just the opposite effect. I have never given long lectures to my children and left them pretty much on their own. They even don`t drink or smoke. I think that their value system is higher than the boys who grow up in the Pakistani culture.

Great article. I have noticed that the farther (geographically) some immigrants get from the land of their birth, the tighter the hold on to traditions, restrictions, etc. I know that growing up in the Middle East, my life seemed a lot tamer than stories I heard of goings-on in Karachi - maybe just hearsay, though.

Re: #9 ``And I also say this to Mexicans who want to ``stick to & impose their spanish language`` on california and other southern states. Why don`t you guys just stay back where you are... that way you`ll be really really sticking to your roots.`` Maybe you don`t know that California and some other southwestern states were originally part of Mexico - the Spanish language and culture really are part of California`s roots.

Saima

...thoughtful and thought provoking…this is the crux…rather than relying on his own learning and reason.

…if i visit anybody the first thing i look for is any evidence of the printed word (books)…this watershed tells me a lot about them…books symbolize a yearning for knowledge…reason lurks round the corner…and even if they are religious usually they are more rational and moderate…

To sum, it seems that there are two amazing attributes of migrants from Pakistan. The instinct for survival, demonstrated by the drive to attend foreign Universities, earn degrees and migrate successfully to Canada or USA is one, and the other is the slave mentality.

…the instinct is common and present everywhere…who is not a survivalist?…but i tend to agree and would like you to elaborate on this slave mentality

…to a degree all of us have chips on our shoulders that carry the burdens of past neglect and sins…family, culture and society inclusive…is this ‘insularity’?…or abdication?…or both?…growing up there some of the values are imbibed indirectly and in cases perhaps unconsciously...over here concerned parents have to do a lot more directly...most don`t...they abdicate...in favour of mosques and ghettoes...hoping it will work...it doesn`t...then they have to come to terms with the new reality...as sac alluded to...

…digression…

…would be interesting if you re-visit this and update it in ten years…suspect some of these kids will go on to provide fodder to the lashkars back there (hope am proven wrong) and some grow up as mature or wayward as any other race or colour…no hang-ups and no chips from the old country…this is an observation…not a value judgement…

lve,

t

ps: apologise for the italics...the second closure refuses to `straighten` out the remaining text