Growing up Muslim

re:#114
Urstruly--

Sorry to read your response. You obviously misunderstand or are very authoritarian in your outlook and therefore dont see the point at all. At the age of 6 a child is made to feel shame at an innocent act. A child of six should not be made to feel guilty about a change in the channel--which she may or may not have done. Quite unknowingly I bet. This is early sexualization. Whether the TV is regulated or not is besides the point. IF the parents care what their children watch--why don`t they ban playstation? or endless cartoons which have violence and sometimes very adult themes. Why not reduce the number of channels they receive--instead of making the child cry about something she knows nothing about?

There is a time to explain your cultural values--when a child is ready to understand the issue. At six a child is too immature.

The chasm is in your mind--you can bridge it if you try to be less suspicious of what the other person is saying. This has little to do white, brown or black men. It is about our fear and suspicion of our own children. It isn`t fair on them.

btw, I sang no hymns of praise for anybody. I admired a writer and quoted Socrates`s ideas perhaps to start a dialogue on values, culture and what is worth preserving. Tomorrow I may quote Rumi--will you accuse me of singing the praises of brown man? Whether a writer was white or off-white is besides the point. Race purity for me is not a value--quite obviously some people think otherwise. Thank you, these replies provide me the additional evidence of just why the Third world is the third world. Coz their values are third rate.

Your accusations disappointed me. I guess I expected some fair criticism.

test

Thanks for generously including us all in your lot.

[quote]
But no, the Muslims sit in a huff in a Masjid, the Christians in the Churches, the Hindus stay in the Mandirs and the Sikhs stay bound to the Gurdwara.
[end-quote]

But the facts don`t support you. It is very well known that achievement and relative social emancipation among Indians is considerably further ahead than Pakis and Bangladeshis. Further, and lets be blunt here, that sikhs and hindus have considerably fewer difficulties in assimilating that muslims. There are plenty of surveys to back this up.

So don`t bother to co-opt the rest of us ``brown folk``. Instead try to focus on the core of your problems.

hamidm …

Once again you underestimate the power of shariah … and shortchange the ullema. The word has it … they are aware of limitations of hefty amount of meher money before legitimate sex … and are working hard at developing the concept of muttah.

Multiple partners … prom nights … various uses of tongue on total strangers … all will be a-ok under this proposal. I am not sure if the sunni ullema are ahead of their shia counterparts … or what … but sooner or later, one party will emerge victorious … and will take in hoards of believers sprinting to join their ranks. As for me … I’ll gladly downgrade abu bakr and omar in favor of Ali … or vise versa … and accept that gabriel bungled up by going to mohammed instead of ali. Being dead for over a thousand years … I am sure they will overlook this minor indiscretion on my part.

This mud wrestling with shariah hands us the best of both worlds. Easy sex now … while the goal of 70 virgins in the hereafter remains within reach. Heck … if naqshbandi can have his flying mahdi … urstruly can have his fire-breathing donkey … the rest of the ummah should be able to walk away with the sacred muttah …

So I say … hail to the bearded chief … and let’s go back to reciting the kalima and offering tahajjud…

It`s funny how people pick a few words and get all riled up - if it`s growing up muslim - it must mean all muslims, and therefore all `good` muslims need to stand up defend the concept.

#115 razzz: what are the traditionalist values? I don`t see the author advocating `white` values.

115:razz

[``...............emulate the white man just for the sake of it and to think of everything coming from your religion as being repressive. ..................``]

Sorry razz: it is not the color (race) that is deviant . Just can`t be . very unIslamic, this thought.There is an overwhelming majority of devoutly religious white--and many muslims among them as well.

The desire to regress back to the days of the `glorious` days of the pharoahs et al and take mores & morals to the abyss of milleniums is not exclusive to the white man. These led-astrayed ones are scrambling all-over to go back to pagan days--live in minus-2000years & more. Want to meet Conan & Barbella.

The dream of fascists like Nasser, Asad, Saddam, Mussolini , Raza Shah--just to name a few was to bring back the `glory` days of pre-religion. In Pakistan Mushy-types want the skeletons from the closets of moenjo-daro & harrapa be given preference over the emaciated living.

Atheist communists had put a complete stranglehold on matters spiritual. Closed down mosques, punished the reciters of Qura`an, created a chasm between generations , but look! what triumphed again.

The religious ones are perhaps fanatics but it helps them. No secularist/heathen will ever be able to muster such fanatism....and that is something which wil never alter.

Whoever cherishes Life the most, is never afraid to die. Isn`t sacrifice the true test of Love & devotion. Mothers are universally `notorious` to give up a lot to save their child.


Majority of the population in U.S is mashallah fundamentalist and practising. The turf-war in Canada & other countries on secular/theology hot-issues is really between the Catholics & protestants. These are proxy-wars but in the guise of language (quebec), race (ireland), secularism ( U.S & europe) and sin-industries (everywhere).

The most disturbing thing about this article is that the author in it is as intolerant to the values of the traditionalists as the so called maulvis are to the reforms being proposed by the moderates or the liberals. Whats the use of being so open minded and liberal when your basic aim is to emulate the white man just for the sake of it and to think of everything coming from your religion as being repressive.
cheers
raza

saima shah

And I am shocked that you were shocked of the very obvious. Saima you and I are representatives of two very different people - we stand across the great chasm that has divided our society and this schism is ever widening. That is the reason our perspectives and perceptions are so different.

Take the example of a parent who restricts his children to go to certain TV channels, which you refer to as ``channel fipping`` in your article; you perceive it as the greatest oppression and repression of sexuality of children. Your perception is that those parents who do that are religious fanatics and fundamentalists who are extremely insecure about anything and everything; whereas I perceive them as concerned responsible parents. At the same time when white man invents V-chips and parental controls, and rates the videos, movies, and even video-games to control and restrict the exposure to the children of these things you sing the hymns of praise of white man. wah ji wah kia baat hey goray sahib ki - bachchoN ka khayal rakhna to bas in par khatam hay aur ek hum haiN........

see?

Now why does echoooobooom remind me so much of farangi_kush?

later
-sac

This article is mainly trying to address issues of some immigrants. I doubt it has anything to do with growing up Muslims. I find the writer`s conclusion pretty lame. They are issues of certain families and certain mindsets. The issues exist every where regardless of being in a Muslim vs. a non-Muslim society. To give an example: In a Muslim Society, the chances of a Muslim guy or gal to marry outside their community will be few and far between. In a non-Muslim Society, the chances are higher but it`s all on people`s leanings.

I am reminded of an accomplished doctor who started providing the details of her family over a luncheon, starting with her eligible son and ending at her married daughter. She spoke about her daughter`s husband who is an American and a non-Muslim. With some concern in her voice she mentioned the number of times her colleagues and friends have reminded her to speak to her son in law on Islam. With great remorse she exclaimed, ``How can I say anything to my son in law when my own daughter has no inclination towards religion ?``

Recently a highly accomplished friend said something that made me feel certainly bad about his close-mindedness.

``She has had her freedon while she was studying in California. Now mom and dad do not want her to live on her own.`` He summarized in a very crisp manner.

``Is that mom and dad or brother dear who won`t allow an adult sister to live on her own?`` I made a light hearted comment.

He laughed and said, ``I do not want to argue with you since I won`t win.``

His one and only sister has completed her undergrad studies but cannot pursue an opportunity away from where the brother and his family lives. The parents are in Pakistan whereas the children are in the US. The sister in this case is quite modern but has to live under the family`s influence to stick to the right path. Indeed, no family would like their children to go astray but I find it very unfair when people try to mould adults thinking that they will change from who and what they are. This is inculcating double values, but this is the dilemma that many families face. When the internal influence is weak(unappealing, lacking in substance, no role model and stuff), the external influence takes over. An observation!

Saima wrote, in post #108:

``Criticizing my organization of the stories doesnt deflect from the main issue:``

I meant that criticism to be constructive. I was just pointing out my own difficulties with the piece, and tried to give you feedback on how your points could be made more forcefully.

``though you say that I am over generalizing, you are quoting from your personal experience to say that my observations are incorrect. Isn`t that over generalization?``

The example wasn`t meant to be general. I misconstrued your questioning regarding reasons for migrating as being directed towards me, (i.e. I read `your parents` and not `the parents`).

However, that IS the story of most migrants I know, so it could have been a general example. Anyhow, this was not meant to negate your argument entirely, but to simply discuss those experiences you neglected to. Does it weaken your arguments? Perhaps. Does it challenge the characterizations on which your arguments were made? Yes.

``You seem to want to contradict me over and above any desire to understand the point I am making. Obvious to myself and others is the knee jerk insularity that I am pointing to``

Admittedly I was being a bit contrarian, however recall I agreed with your conclusion. I think I understood your point quite well. I simply question the method in which it was made. Let us distinguish between conclusion and argument.

You are rather judgmentally describing people such as myself, and the way we were raised. I`d think our counter opinions on this experience would count for something more than a simple knee-jerk reaction. You see problems, I don`t see exactly the same ones...for example:

``--as for extreme--this so called `extreme` is normal to most migrants--they do not want their child to lose whatever faith they call their identity.``

Let me reiterate, there is a big difference between encouraging children stay away from certain religious/ethnic groups, and hoping/expecting they marry within your ethnic/religious group. The latter need not be the end result of a bigoted mindset.

109:nasah

[ as one looks back -- growing up as a Muslim was nightmarishly tormenting, guilt laden and fearfully repressed experience -- for a hot blooded Believer Boy. ]

Now you are a cold-blooded unbeliever man! No?

[No love just fear -- fear this fear that -- sin in this sin in that -- believe this believe that -]

Fear shall never abandon you

---

now it is the fear of muslims. Right?

[don`t ask don’t question -- just have faith – if not then you will be punished for this and punished for that --]

Now you should have unquestionable faith in unbelieveabilty--no belief in the Ripleys either?

[don`t look at girls with lust -- it`s SIN ul burn in hell -- treat them as your sisters -- sisters? ]

Still smouldering with lust--making out with the sisters too?

[rewards? -- rewards were few but must say quite tantalizing -- but unfortunately they were so off color -- that no decent middle class Muslim home will discuss it with their boys --]

You just called your family indecent?

[I mean 72 mouth watering Houries and then – also a few Ghilmans? – ]

Mouth watering? and you said you were hotblooded.

[Islam’s proverbial fairness to -- Gay Men? ]

Ready for nuptials? Its legal now.

[in fact there was no tangible reward for the girl-deprived sexually repressed Muslim boys who tried to be `good kids` -- during their tortured teen years.]

The courageous ones were busy during your `tortured` years. Now they are supplicating for forgiveness. They`ll surely get it. So is it written.

[and then this damn Munkir Nakeer business -- two fellows sitting on your shoulders recording everything -- while a girl deprived you are trying to play with yourself?-- what a violation of a Muslim boy`s privacy! ]

Still feel the weight on your shoulders, or have you spent yourself?

[-- was that fair?]

No. It is not supposed to be fair. Having been born as a muslim was unfair. Remember, you still be questioned for your half-life. No exemption there.

[for the Muslim men -- life was and is still miserable -- but death brought no relief – in fact more misery -- ]

Still miserable or are some muslims miserable in your presence . You really speak for many , I guess.

[within minutes after they leave the Muslim man under six feet of earth -- the Allah Inquisitors will arrive inside the grave with all the Munkir Nakeer’s dossiers on you --and then the accounting of all your misdeeds would start – ]

Bettter than being a clinton and getting universal exposure.

[no body seems to be interested in ur good deeds -- only the misdeeds …]

Only truants are charged. One is not awarded a medal for not stealing.

[No wonder the Believer Boys of Islam turned out to be such a basket case…. all over the world… ]

There are always silent exceptions. Never believe what they print or telecast.


Thought you must be lolling in happiness and never think about the place you sought asylum from. Look happy. Act happy--lest you are deported.

PS: The blanket just won`t let go. Why?

as one looks back -- growing up as a Muslim was nightmarishly tormenting, guilt laden and fearfully repressed experience -- for a hot blooded Believer Boy.

No love just fear -- fear this fear that -- sin in this sin in that -- believe this believe that --

don`t ask don’t question -- just have faith – if not then you will be punished for this and punished for that --

don`t look at girls with lust -- it`s SIN ul burn in hell -- treat them as your sisters -- sisters?

rewards? -- rewards were few but must say quite tantalizing -- but unfortunately they were so off color -- that no decent middle class Muslim home will discuss it with their boys --

I mean 72 mouth watering Houries and then – also a few Ghilmans? –

Islam’s proverbial fairness to -- Gay Men?

in fact there was no tangible reward for the girl-deprived sexually repressed Muslim boys who tried to be `good kids` -- during their tortured teen years.

and then this damn Munkir Nakeer business -- two fellows sitting on your shoulders recording everything -- while a girl deprived you are trying to play with yourself?-- what a violation of a Muslim boy`s privacy!

-- was that fair?

for the Muslim men -- life was and is still miserable -- but death brought no relief – in fact more misery --

within minutes after they leave the Muslim man under six feet of earth -- the Allah Inquisitors will arrive inside the grave with all the Munkir Nakeer’s dossiers on you --and then the accounting of all your misdeeds would start –

no body seems to be interested in ur good deeds -- only the misdeeds …

No wonder the Believer Boys of Islam turned out to be such a basket case…. all over the world…

#97--

Criticizing my organization of the stories doesnt deflect from the main issue: though you say that I am over generalizing, you are quoting from your personal experience to say that my observations are incorrect. Isn`t that over generalization?

You seem to want to contradict me over and above any desire to understand the point I am making. Obvious to myself and others is the knee jerk insularity that I am pointing to--as for extreme--this so called `extreme` is normal to most migrants--they do not want their child to lose whatever faith they call their identity.

let me quote, ``If our children do indeed marry out of the faith, then it is due to our failure as parents to impart our values and sense of identity. ``

This is exactly the attitude I am talking about in the article. You have just proved my point. thank you.

and, thanks for acknowledging the poor organization and sense of community among Muslim migrants. And yes, for the most part teaching morality to children seems to be a lot about prejudice and repression.

102:digit

My apologies and tauba-taubas for not acknowledging & paying homage to the holder of the copyright for:

{Wealth turns any place into your homeland, and Poverty makes you a stranger in your homeland. }

Hazrat Ali ibn Abi-Talib.

echo #98,

sorry, i have no idea what you are talking about - never been to springfield ............