Growing up Muslim

Mantolives:

A few lines from the article:
``To sum, it seems that there are two amazing attributes of migrants from Pakistan. The instinct for survival, demonstrated by the drive to attend foreign Universities, earn degrees and migrate successfully to Canada or USA is one, and the other is the slave mentality. ``

I think these words are much more baseless than the criticism levelled at the author. As a first generation Pakistani, a loving husband and father, I find such gross generalization and stereotyping appalling. The author gripes about the desi migrant being overly critical of a culture he does not understand, yet falls in the same trap herself. The real issue is that of judging other people based on your own observations and beliefs. You see, its a double-edged sword.

Anytime someone tries to paint an entire generation with the same brush it makes me leery. Judging by the wonderful second generation kids I know in America, I think their parents have done a wonderful job. How about a little gratitude for the father who suffers from an acute case of ``slave mentality``, yet raises successful bright kids?

I am not denying the bigotry and hypocrisy amongst many desi parents. Of course, it exists. But, lets not make sweeping statements declaring migrants as slaves and idiots. For every bigot, there is a loving father who wants nothing but the best for his child. One might not agree with his methods, but lets not forget that the father is trying to do what he knows best.

Saima,

I salute your remarkable patience in face of this kind of cyclical and baseless criticism levelled at you.

I will reserve my comments on the Holy Quran vis a vis women, in view of my presence in Pakistan, where the state made law currently infringes on my right to speak about the issue openly. However it is precisely for the reasons you`ve mentioned that secularism is an ever important necessity for a modern progressive Pakistan.

Perhaps had that ogre we call the President lived up to his promise, I would have been more forthcoming in my support.

-Manto

This article has both fair and unfair points. The fair points should be taken in a constructive stride whereas the unfair points are probably the result of the writer`s exposure to certain people and surroundings. I agree with the argument that one has to compare apples with apples.

I would like to state a few personal observations and experiences when time permits since I like to get into the details and stuff :)

Saima,

Some good questions. I hope that I am understanding the context in which they are being posed. If not, bear with me.

re: #2

I tend to think not. I grew up in a time where my parents, like my aunties and uncles thought that the ideal situation was to draw the best qualities of from both Pakistani and American culture- hard work, obedience, law abidingness (?), respect for family, traditions and institutions, education (the most definitive criteria), tolerance, gender equity...

What intrigues me is that their generation thought it was possible to engage with the dominant American culture-and yet preserve a certain core identity (South Asian, Muslim) that only their generation had access to. For them, I`m sure it was a bit easier to do that. Part of what that translated to in practice was for us, certain expectations of our academic lives, religious and social behavior, etc. It was as if they wanted us to live in a certain moment that they had known in Pakistan-even though that moment was recontextualized (not Karachi but white surburbia), and had continued and was evolving in Pakistan.

The most interesting exchanges for me was talking with my cousins or peers who were visiting from Pakistan or even the UK...there was a certain mobility or freedom to their lives-like going in a group of girls to get ice cream in Karachi during the evening...that was something I envied...that kind of ease was completely orchestrated out of our lives in this new context...

I`m not trying to sound whiny...but I suspect that the kinds of friendships that are enjoyed in Pakistan tend to be discouraged by desi parents in the US in low desi areas. I`d go as far to say that maintaining friendships with people who are not Pakistani- can be difficult because of the subtext of our own imposed ``difference``.

Anyway...dont know if that was clarifying-maybe marginally.

Also, did get your point about the Pakistani mom arranging her son`s marriage.

Saima,

I must commend you for choosing a red-hot topic. Generally speaking it is the most forward-looking Desi who moves West. Like you say they are looking for greener pastures and are willing to experiment socially. Most start out eating regular American fare and doing things what most young folks do. But change starts when the desi wife shows up at Kennedy. It starts out with desi cooking at home and gradually expands to only Halal meat. But the goose gets really cooked on the arrival of little princess. Suddenly Mr. Desi is confronted with the future possibility of his princess being the object of someone else’s experimentation. This thought alone brings the fear of God into the poor man. From there it is a slippery slope and he starts tightening up the bubble around the princess. Before long all oxygen has been sucked out and mommy, daddy and princess are emaciated.


So how do we change this? First we need to understand the values of our adopted land. You barely touched on that sage of rational thought Socrates/Plato and Aristotle whose wisdom is the basis of Western civilization. We need to study them, understand their purpose in life, their concept of justice, ethics, what a righteous life should be etc.

The pill and broad definitions of rape including date rape have done more to liberate women then any doctrine in history. As a parent of two girls 12 and 16 my purpose is to provide them with a safe nourishing environment where they are free to explore and pursue their arête. Whereas the younger prefers to hang out with friends and read books, the older is busy playing field hockey, sailing, dancing and acting. I am sure that they don’t confide in me on every topic but the discourse is fairly open.

Razzz:

Quran is anti-women. Quran allows one man to have 4 wives and limitless sex slaves. Quran clearly says that woman is one degree less than man. Quran prescribes a rigid code of dress for women. Quran allows child marriages. Quran allows slavery. For more check out Urstruly`s last article on Chowk, who has clearly shown what the Quran views Women. The tragedy is that its followers actually accept all that as divine, unlike Christains and Judaism. Btw, Quran shares a lot with the other texts, You cant blame the clergy for following it to the letter--they are probably doing a better job than jews and christians. This is my opinion of it. I am not about to change it just because of your disapproval because I arrived at mine after reading it--objectively, unlike you. This is my point. What is your point? that Quran is less anti-women than other monotheistic texts? that it was the baadddd clergy in Islam who ruined it? so the good clergy in Christainity and Judaism improved their texts? your opinion about the Quran is supported by many so-called scholars around the world. Doesnt that make you feel secure in your belief? why do u want me to change my mind?

And hey if you didn`t read surah-e-nisah, do so now. As for quoting it for your benefit, I am not about to clog up my board with irrelevant posts about the Quran--rather than the central ideas in my article. I am not going to argue with you anymore about the Quran--this is my last post on this topic that has been beaten to death before at Chowk. If that makes you angry, go to a counselor about your desire to control other people`s opinions.

regards

re: #79

And your point is? surprised to see that you with excellent values from india/pakistan labelling the `fair sex`.

adnan_rafiq: #74: ``From where I stand, it doesn`t look quite as bad as the article would have you believe. Like they say about the weather in Texas, ``if you don`t like it, stick around and it will change.``

I would agree with this. Within the social circle that I travel in, at least. Once again, everyone has different experiences. Mine have been very positive, from an immigrant`s point of view. As have been those of most of the Pakistani (and Indians) families my wife and I associate with.

At the same time, the issues described in this article do exist. But they are one side. And need to be balanced by the other side. It seems like everyone highlighting the issues is pointing to these problems in other peoples` families, while stating that their own families are fine. This would be an indication that a lot of families are fine also. It would be insightful to get the comments of people whose own family falls into this category.

The status of women, kids (and men for that matter) etc. is obviously much worse off in South Asia than in North America. There is no contest. But I think it is due to other reasons, than sexual openness or closeness. The primary problem in Pakistan, at least in my opinion, in regard to women is education and financial empowerment. If Pakistan were to have a 100% literacy rate for women and 50% of the employment force were women, I think many, if not most of the problems related to not discussing sex, religion, openness/closeness, exploitation by men etc. would go away.

I think the solution is to raise the literacy rate for women and make them financially independent. This is what we should learn from the West. I am not quite sure the solution is to bring in sexual, ``openness`` to the point that it exists in the West. The West, itself, is fed up of it.

A high literacy rate is the key. That automatically opens up a society. At the same time, at least in my opinion, the Western society is, ``too open`` in sex, which, along with alcoholism seem to be their two major problems.

Now since it appears that you dont have much knowledge of the Quranic text but still feel free to pass judgements on it ........... i will show you that its more important to read the ACTUAL THING then profess love for BUDDHIST spiritualism and downplay something you dont know a whit about.


Excerpts from Christian and Jewish religious texts

``When God asked Adam why did he eats from the forbidden tree, he answered ,according to the O.T. ``And the man said, the WOMAN whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat. And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, the serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.`` Genesis 3:12-13

``And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise the head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Unto the woman he (God) said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.`` Genesis 3 : 15-16

``No wickedness comes anywhere near the wickedness of a woman.....Sin began with a woman and thanks to her we all must die`` (Ecclesiasticus 25:19,24).

Finally, I would like to show what the much hailed reformer Martin Luther thought of women and to think Pseudo intellectuals love him sigh !!!

He says ``If they become tired or even die, that does not matter. Let them die in childbirth, that`s why they are there``



Quranic Text

`` Then Satan whispered to them in order to reveal to them their shame that was hidden from them and he said: `Your Lord only forbade you this tree lest you become angels or such beings as live forever.` And he swore to them both that he was their sincere adviser. So by deceit he brought them to their fall: when they tasted the tree their shame became manifest to them and they began to sew together the leaves of the Garden over their bodies. And their Lord called unto them: `Did I not forbid you that tree and tell you that Satan was your avowed enemy?` They said: `Our Lord we have wronged our own souls and if You forgive us not and bestow not upon us Your Mercy, we shall certainly be lost` `` (7:19:23).


``For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast, for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah`s praise-- For them all has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward`` (33:35).



So i guess its better to look at the ACTUAL thing then look for it in the chowk articles.

cheers
raza

72:Ali87

The chicanery (tiryahutt and heela-jooyee) of the fair-sex is legendary. Aren`t we all willing and able captives of that? Never ever believe we are equal to them. They have always ( and always will) occupied a higher pedestal in all refined cultures & civilisations throughout history. They drop with a thud as well when they try to emulate the unfair sex.


The emerald necklace freezes many an argument. A diamond is for ever!

---

but only for fair sex.

re Saima shah

i think i have read the surah more times then you have.............as i said quote one ayat to me which gives unequal status to women.....you couldnt could you ? why should i read iqra or the articles on chowk when we have the ORIGINAL text with us.....so why dont u explain the anti women stance in quran to me ? .......as for the other religions....i think they are much much more anti women then islam is....do you know what the status of women is in judaism and christianity ?how they have been blamed for all the sin in this world .....and how the eve `s folly and the rib incident is used to degrade women in those religions......you `d be surprised to know that according to islam eve wasnt created from adam`s rib like it is said in other religions.....your lack of any REAL knowledge would have stopped you from knowing that .........so i would advise you read up on the quranic text a bit instead of just going with the popular perception which has been created by maulvis andpseudos and like you..........and quote me one instance where women have been given a lower status in quran....
thats the whole point over here........that it is not what quran which is anti women or islam................its the clergy which has mis interpretted it and manipulated it because we dont feel to study the religion on our own and would rather read IQRA and articles on chowk.....
cheers
raza

as for the big issue of sexual repression being promoted by our cultures, well tell me what has the sexual liberation in the west resulted in..........? high rates of divorce. Single parent children, Extra marital affairs......even their presidents do it....its so common.
So unless the goal of sexual liberation is some GOLDEN objective out there why feel the need for it.......has it enabled the west to overcome their societal problems ?
What will teaching the mainstream culture practices to a child enable him to do ?
How many Americans do you know who would be willing to assimilate into a sub continental culture with no regard for the AMERICAN culture...........
its just a case of embracing the west......you dont do it.....your are narrow minded...if you do ..then you are SUPPOSEDLY enlightened......
cheers
raza

general comments:

Some people on this board have taken the most extreme meanings from the article to defend their arguments. The questions that are key to the arguments are:
1. Does repressing women and men sexually at an early age ensure that they do not date or have sex outside wedlock?
2. Is teaching children fear and distrust of the mainstream cultural practices necessary in order to repress them sexually and ensure sexual abstinence?
3. Does repressing children mean that they do not observe other cultures and are under-exposed to alternative cultures and religions like Hindu, Sikh, American.
4. If one does 1,2,3 does it ensure that the children don`t divorce later on? or become gay? or drink alcohol? or be happy with an arranged marriage?
5. Is it ok to take away the natural innocence of children and sexualize them earlier just to achieve the dubious goal of number 4.?
6. Are divorce, homosexuality and drugs/alcohol preventable through sexual repression? Or do they need something else?
7. Is religion just about abstinence from pleasure? or is it about other things like tolerance, faith and contentment? Is joy the same thing as pleasure? Does the joy of being a child have to be traded for prejudice, fear and suspicion of different people?

ali87:
You seem to have an anger problem and want me to react in the same way. Basically if you post relevant comments politely I will answer them, but if you use terms like `you are` and proceed to post abuse--I will not reply to your comments.

#74

adnan_rafiq

Through out my article I have talked about the level of hard work that migrants do, to support their families and develop professionally. You might want to check that yourself.

and the fact that other migrants did the same thing as us--it is true--so?

I am glad it doesnt look so `bad` to you if children are brainwashed at an early age. IF parents teach intolerance and under-confidence along with Islam. It is just great. It worked before in India and Pakistan and it will work again to perpetuate prejudice and narrow mindedness--along with huge confusions in second generation children. It is fine and dandy and we should all accept it.

#69
True--My reason for quoting the incident was to expose the the simplicity of the reasoning and prove the insularity of 1st and 2nd generation migrants.

1. The idea that race purity could automatically ensure a happy marriage and good life.
2. The youth of the girl, her family values were supposed to keep the son on the right and true path.

Saima Shah

I think that you need to get yourselves a new religion.
This article which you pretend to give a crituque about Pakistani Immigrants is just a thinly vieled attmept to justify your take on west.

Do you see Americans adjusting to local culture anywhere in the world? Did the British adjust themselves to Indian culture earlier? Did their children grow up confused? No obviously not because you read Ruskin Bond and others with great reverence. Did any of them give up their religion?

Do Americans give up their culture in Saudi Arabia? In India? In malaysia?

With regard to sexual issues, It is strange you did not find any problem in young little girls being sexualised when they wear bikinis even 6 year olds? You have no problem with the sexual experiences of typical american 13 year old. You dont find the teen pregnencies of much concern yet you if any one suggests that a 15 year old get married it is a horrible Asian cultural practice.

How did the Americans came up to have such a high divorce rate? How did the Americans get to such a high rate of Adultery? How did the Americans came to such a high rate of Cheating their partners whom they are not married? Oh yes I know that you will say that the Muslims or pakistanis are the same they will cheat if given an opportunity blah blah..

Yet you talk about he honesty of the American people where is the honesty when they take vows to remain stead fast till death do them apart and the proceed to break those vows in a few years time. You do not talk about this confusion.

You talk about Slavery. I think that it is you who are a Slave. You want to find the fault in Quran for what you call anti women Ayaths. Yet you dont find the faults in the antiwomen stance of Western life. You are just as confused as the people you describe.
There are immigrants who are quite different from the ones you describe but you dont even ackowledge their existance.

Your tirade is just booring being endlessly repeated again and again by the confused people like you. I say that as a sexual freedom you marry your little girl at the age of 14 and with a condition that she has right to Divorce at will. And let her divorce her husband after a couple of months or years and then marry again similarly. She will be well within Islam if she does that. But you rather let her have sex at that age and again and again as long as it is called dating and experemtation but not marriage. you will call marriage repression if it is done islamically. I know muslims as well as hindus who were married at as low age of 14-15 there are some in them who are unhappy but most seem to be happy even now. On of my hindu friends wife was married to him at the age of 14 and when he was 16 she tells my wife how caring her inlaws were. She proceded to have children at 16 and then at 20 she took up college and then at 22 she had another child at 25 she started a business in Optical Insutrments. She now has a bussiness of turnover 4 crores of her own and runs a college in India. Her children too got married at young ages and have been quite happy.
Yet for you all marriages at young age are dreadful but on the other hand sexual experimenation in the west which is even now furtitive at best and usually damaging to the girl in terms of self esteem in the long run. she has no suppourt system to explore her sexual urges and to relate to her sexual partner in a meaningfull way.
You call this ok If this is not a sign of your slavery what is?