Growing up Muslim

A disenchanted former American, now back `home` writes:


In the course of the decades I spent in America, I watched the social environment disintegrate almost beyond recognition. On my occasional visits back to Europe I noted, with some alarm, that many of the problems which I had, at one time, thought to be distinctively American were just beginning to be European problems. Sexual abuses of the kind that are commonplace today all over Europe were rare in the Britain in which I grew up. Marriages were made to last. Drugs were virtually unknown. Armed robbery was a rare event. Policemen never got killed on duty. Whether a causal relation can be established is another matter, but one thing is certain. The social problems I deal with in this work existed in America before they became a matter of public concern in Europe. Now they exist in Europe, and elsewhere in the world.

But things have gone badly wrong. In place of `individualism`, you find either libertinism without responsibility or the conformism of the corporate state. In place of the `family`, you find solitary sexual adventurism. In place of `community`, you find urban slums and suburban sprawls. In place of `religion`, you find a deep-rooted secularism founded upon an unqualified commitment to science and technology. In place of `health and sanity`, you find an addictive society which has become ever more dependent upon the psychiatrist. In place of `law and order`, you find a widespread criminality which is by no means confined to the so-called `criminal class`.

Since writing and revising this work over more than a decade, the predictive power of my central thesis has been amply confirmed. Whatever happens in California happens in the rest of America -- a few years later. Whatever happens in America happens in the rest of the world -- a few years later. Over and over again I have made predictions, both for the rest of America and for Europe, based on my initial experience of the way things were in California in the late 60s and 70s. And over and over again my predictions have turned out to be on the mark. This does not mean that the content is now out of date. To be sure, in one sense it does now read as a chronicle of happenings from the 60s through to the 90s. But, in another sense, the course of developments through those three decades has brought us to the point at which we are now forced to ask what kind of a society we want to see in place at the beginning of the next millenium. The break-down in family structures, for example, has now brought us to the point where the family is no longer a viable institution. Should we now jettison the family altogether and replace the traditional family with some other strategy for raising successive generations? Or should we do everything in our power to revive the family? I hope that a reading of this work will help to confirm that the traditional family not only represents the best means available to our kind of society of raising children but of inculcating, in successive generations, the values which have worked for us in the past.

The truth probably lies somewhere in between SaimaSha and Romair.

The first wave of immigrants, regardless of its origin, invariably faces similar issues. The Irish, Italian, Germans and Jews, all preferred to live amongst their own kind when they first arrived here. It took several generations to assimilate with the mainstream culture. Often times, living in ethnic ghettos is a decision based more on economics and convenience rather than a desire to shun the majority population. It is also not uncommon, at least here in the USA, that whites start moving out en masse once a neighborhood`s ethnic makeup goes beyond a certain level. Ask any Black or Mexican.

I know many desi parents who earn six figure incomes, yet work like dogs, change engine oil at home, mow lawns in 90 degree temperatures, endure long lines at Sam`s Club just so their kids can attend Ivy League schools without having to work at gas stations like they did as students. Perhaps, Saimasha has not come across such parents, but nonethless, they do exist. Maybe we do not not notice them because they are the silent majority?

From where I stand, it doesn`t look quite as bad as the article would have you believe. Like they say about the weather in Texas, ``if you don`t like it, stick around and it will change.``

nb #67: ``Who says teenage pregnancies are not a problem in Pakistan(or for that matter,India?)The only reason you say this is that South Asian teenage pregnancies are within wedlock,and many Western ones are out of wedlock.``

No one is saying it is not a problem in Pakistan. It is the intensity of the problem that I am talking about. In Pakistan, most of the problems that occur in the social system and due to a low economic standard and due to a low level of education (specifically of women). These things always lead to suppression of whomever is in a weak situation (particularly women and the poor). There is no questioning that. But in North America, there is very high education and very high economic standards, yet they do have unexplainably high problem with broken homes, unwanted pregnancies etc. Such wealthy countries should not have such problems.

The reason they have these problems (at least from what I can see) is due to two reasons: Excessive sex, when kids aren`t ready to understand it, yet still take part in it due to social pressures, and alcoholism. These are self-created problems, due to social pressures, and not due to a lack of resources (which is the main problem in Pakistan). And they follow the person all through his/her life. Americans themselves have realized this. Their sociologists are running around left and right pointing this out. Abstinence, safe sex, condoms, hotlines, Mothers against Drunk Driving, and so on. They even banned liquor one time, but they know that will not work since it is too much a part of their society. One of the biggest causes of African-Americans falling behind is due to single parent homes of teenaged mothers.

I find it surprising that South Asians are defending these issues, while Americans themselves are critical of them. This is what I mean by ape-ing the West. I think in Pakistan, families that are economically well-off and educated face these issues far far less than families in equivalent conditions in North America. Obivioulsy you cannot compare a dirt poor part of Pakistan with Palm Springs. You have to compare equivalent areas.

``Teenage mothers in the West have often,but not always,had more say in choosing to have sex than Pakistani teenage mothers have.``

This is the whole point. People in the West have all the facilities in the world open to them. Guidance, education, wealth, yet they still cannot figure out how to handle sex-related issues and their marraiges. One could understand these problems in poor societies of Africa (or Pakistan), but why do they occur in such large numbers in North America. Male suppression due to lack of education and economic pressures, is the biggest source of problems of a wife in Pakistan. But in North America, men are educated and there are very few economic problems. Yet so many women (and men) are so unhappy in their marraiges, here. Why? Women here are so empowered, and men so educated, yet well over 50% of gora women want a divorce. Its because of the excessive sexual tendencies and alcoholism of the husband (and wife in some cases).

``I also think that because of welfare states, many young girls find no reason not to keep a pregnancy,at least in Australia.``

Many girls don`t find any reason to keep the pregnancy, due to welfare state? That doesn`t make sense. In a welfare state, more girls should keep their pregnancies, since the state will take care of them. The fact that the abortion numbers are over 1 million per year for Americans, should be an indication that they didn`t want the child in the first place. It just happened. To me the solution is not to abort the child. To me, the solution is to have an atmosphere where so many pregnancies do not occur in the first place.

``I wonder what people like Romair find threatening here-is it the fact that a woman`s sexuality is at least partly under her control and pregancy is a matter of choice?``

I don`t find anything threatening. I just think divorces, broken families, abortions, under age and out of wedlock pregnancies, run-away fathers, etc. is not a good thing. Regardless of how much I, ``open up`` my mind, I think I will always find these things as a negative.

I am strong believer in everyone`s sexuality being in their control. I also think a lot of American girls are threatened (unlike what you have stated) due to the sexual habits of their husbands and due to their alcoholism. Once again, the answer to this is not to point out another wrong, by stating that Pakistani wives have problems also. Of course, they do. Women and wives in Pakistan are much worse off than those in North America. I will be the first to admit that. However, the issue being discussed is in regard to excessive sex. Pakistani women`s problems are due to other reasons.

``I have seen the emotional and physical abuse that occurs within many families.Lets not pretend our families are perfect.``

No one is saying our families are perfect. They have many problems. At a personal level, I have yet to seen the problems people are discussing within my family, but I am not naive enough to think they do not occur. Maybe, I am just lucky. It is a question of which system is better. I still think, if you take two families of equivalent education and economic standard in North America and Pakistan, just from a stability point of view, the Pakistani system of family values will be more stable.

If you take an uneducated, ignorant and repressive family from Pakistan and an educated and wealthy family from USA, obviously the later will be more stable, on average. But one has to compare apples with apples, equivalents with equivalents.

I think Pakistan needs to make progress in education and economy to fix its social problems. I think North America needs to make progress in controlling the out of control excessive sex and alcoholism to control its social problems. The most stable families I have seen are North American families that do have been able to control the excessive sex and alcoholism. And the Pakistani families that have been able to give their kids a good education and a good economic standard.

This is indicated by the fact, that everyone commenting on this thread, seems to be stating that, their family in Pakistan is alright, but other families in Pakistan are in a bad and unstable state. If everyone commenting has an OK family, then there must be others like them also.

68: Dostmittar
you wrote:

``we are a people with very high moral values and equally low morals.``

So true!
Seldom have such profound and succinct comment been heard about ourselves.

Thank you for a flicker in the gloomy-dark dungeon when we could see each other`s face .

Saimashah#54
`` A lady worried daily that her son may marry a sikh girl since there are so many non muslims here...she eventually arranged a match with a 19 year old girl from a Pakistani migrant family.``

Saima, it is not mandatory for integration, even assimialtion that you approve marriage outside your race or religion. There are degrees of tolerance and intolerance. Most of us are coming from societies where it was unacceptable to marry even outside our subcaste/biradri/linguistic group, let alone marrying outside one`s relgion or race. It is unrealistic to expect people to suddenly take a leap from such narrrow mindedness to the extreme of tolerance, namely to accept the ``other`` as part of your family. Even most white parents do not approve their children marrying outside their religion/race, though they may be quite liberal in their other views (Remember ``Guess Who is Coming to Dinner``?.

In terms of inter-religious marriages, there is a definite gender bias. Parents oppose their daughter marrying outside their religion much more strongly than their son. This asymmetry is even built into some relgions who favour men marrying women from other religions but not their women marrying other men.

hamidm:
``it is delusional to think that we are somehow ``better`` and more moral than the west``

.....we are a people with very high moral values and equally low morals!

I have refrained from interacting on chowk for some time now because I`d had enough of explaining my point of view to people who didn`t want to understand.
Romair,though,has talked about one of my pet topics,so I have to get up on my soapbox.Who says teenage pregnancies are not a problem in Pakistan(or for that matter,India?)The only reason you say this is that South Asian teenage pregnancies are within wedlock,and many Western ones are out of wedlock.Teenage mothers in the West have often,but not always,had more say in choosing to have sex than Pakistani teenage mothers have.I also think that because of welfare states,many young girls find no reason not to keep a pregnancy,at least in Australia.I wonder what people like Romair find threatening here-is it the fact that a woman`s sexuality is at least partly under her control and pregancy is a matter of choice?I say partly because of course,some teenage girls have sex just because it`s the done thing,or because they are in relationships with abusive men or in an attempt to manipulate the men.
I am deeply attached to my own family but I have seen the emotional and physical abuse that occurs within many families.Lets not pretend our families are perfect.The joint family system existed on the suppression of individuality to an enormous degree,particularly,women`s individuality.I have heard so many women shudder and say it`s the one thing that puts them off returning `home`.Often,its only a certain generation of men who look back fondly at it.

...romair dude, i won`t repeat what others have already pointed out to you, but i do suggest you reconsider some of the twisted views you have on everything...

Unfortunately Chowk was down yesterday so I couldn`t get my 2 bits in.

``Before you accuse me, take a look at yourself`` - Eric Clapton
The problem with quoting statistics about the morally debased West is that there are similar statistics about the East. Maybe human beings are not so different as we think they are - we all have our foibles irrespective of race, religion or culture.

So some findings from the Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI) for India

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/2513999.html
``Bivariate Findings
Overall, 47% of male participants and 13% of females had had any sexual experience; 26% and 3%, respectively, had had intercourse. In the following analyses, young women`s experience of sexual intercourse has been excluded, because the number reporting this behavior was very small.

Individual-level factors exerted a greater influence on males` sexual behavior than on females` (Table 1). The proportion of young men who had had any sexual experience increased steadily from 21% among those aged 15 or younger to 68% among those older than 21; similarly, those in the final year of college were significantly more likely than those in the 11th standard to be sexually experienced. ``

http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/journals/2710401.html
``Domestic Violence
The majority of Indian women (56%) agree with at least one reason that would justify a husband beating his wife. The most commonly endorsed reasons are that the wife neglects the home or the children (40%), that she goes out without telling her husband (37%), that she shows disrespect for her in-laws (34%), that she is suspected of being unfaithful (33%) and that she does not cook food properly (25%). In terms of experience, 21% admit to ever having been beaten or physically mistreated at age 15 or older (90% by their husband), with 11% having been abused within the past year. ``

``Of the estimated 210 million pregnancies that occur throughout the world each year, about 38% are unplanned, and 22% end in abortion, according to a new report by The Alan Guttmacher Institute (AGI)

• In developed countries (where average desired family size is small), of the 28 million pregnancies occurring every year, an estimated 49% are unplanned, and 36% end in abortion.

• In developing countries (where average desired family size is still relatively large), of the 182 million pregnancies occurring every year, an estimated 36% are unplanned, and 20% end in abortion.
``

Just a thought . . . do Pakistani families of Pathan origin experience as much fragmentation and conflict as those from other parts of the country?

How about bringing up your children as human beings, and then lettin` them decide whether they want to North american muslims, or Pakistani atheists?

-Manto

``Quite the contrary, she is more devoted to it now, after seeing all the issues her American colleagues are having.``

Ah... typical

Saminasha #53: Yes, these issues do occur everywhere. But it is the volume and intensity of the issues that counts. Bribery occurs in the USA also, but not nearly as much as in South Asia. Hence I would say bribery is a problem in Pakistan, but not one in the USA.

I think people get too caught up in comparisons of differences, and too little time in comparing similarities. My wife and I are both Pakistani Muslims by birth, and are North Americans by choice. We both work, and went to college in North America. We consider ourselve Pakistani-North Americaners. We are committed to our religion, and to both the countries that we are a part of. I can say with a lot of assurity, that our religion, our social values etc. have never restricted us from being a part of this society. We have not had to comprise on anything. I have never heard my wife complain that Islam is holding her back. Quite the contrary, she is more devoted to it now, after seeing all the issues her American colleagues are having.

That is why I cannot understand all the issues people keep having between East and West. I don`t think there is that much of a conflict. One doesn`t need to make any major sacrifices. I haven`t even had to make any minor ones.

As for our kids, we plan to raise them as North American Muslims (as opposed to my wife and I, who are Pakistani-North American Muslims). They will cheer for the Canadian cricket team, while we cheer for the Pakistani team. And they will follow Shaquille O`Neal, while we follow Jehangir Khan. Their culture will be North American, and within it, the boundaries of Islam. We think it is unfair to move here and then force one`s kids to be half Pakistanis and half North Americans. At the same time, we are very seriously concerned about the social problems of broken families, alcoholism and abortions etc. that exist here (all Pakistanis seem to be non-chalently ignoring these on this board. I don`t think any of them have had to face any of these yet. If they do, they will forget about the little problems like changing channels etc.).

In my opinion, Western public values combined with Pakistani family values are the best combination. And we hope that the North American culture gives our kids the former, and their religion gives them the later.

While I have seen the problems mentioned in this article in North Americans Desis, I have seen a far larger number who seem pretty well adjusted. Their only issues seem to be a cultural conflict. Maybe its because, I don`t have kids and haven`t run across these issues. But I have friends who grew up here as ABCDs, and they are doing ok. A bit confused, but still ok.

I have noticed, that it is easier to raise kids for Pakistanis in Canada than in the USA. I think the USA may be in for a huge change, if another Sep 11 occurs. Pakistani kids may face a lot of problems in schools after that. Regardless of how they try to fit in as Americans. That is one of the reasons, my wife and I decided to move to Canada.

So far, the Canadian mosaic is the best society I have seen anywhere in my life. I would rate it quite a bit higher than the US society. Though US society is still pretty good also. Educated Pakistani society is good also.

There is just a lot of goodness everywhere :-) Take the best from North America and Pakistan. I don`t know why everyone keeps complaining.......

nazarhayatkhan #54: I suppose everyone has different experiences.

To me, a family unit is one`s parents, and siblings, before marraige. And eventually, after marriage one`s wife and kids. I don`t really think too much politics exists at this level in Pakistan. It starts when one goes beyond that. I certainly think this family unit is still intact in Pakistan. It is not perfect. But it is intact, at least.

I think the family unit in the West is as broken up as we think. I cannot imagine it being any more broken up. The divorce rates are now well beyond fifty percent. And for the younger generations, even more so. As well, as single mothers. Fathers who run away, etc. etc. How much more broken up could something be? Abortion figures over 1 million. All of this will break up the most robust families.

If the government wasn`t efficient enough to look after all these broken homes, there would be catastrophe here, since the family structure is so broken up.

I have noticed that people have a tendency to go overboard in criticising North America, while others go overboard in seeing nothing wrong in it. They get offended when someone points out some of the problems in the USA. Even though Americans themselves point them out.

Sometimes when I see the marital problems of my American friends, I just cannot figure out how they get into those situations. I really cannot think of anything more negative for a child than divorce. And I cannot think of anything more disturbing for a parent than finding out that their child has started a family, without being married and without having a spouse, at an age when the kid should be playing with marbles and dolls.

Believe me, not talking about sex enough, really pales in comparison.

I think Pakistanis should not be overly critical of Westerners, nor should they have inferiority complexes to the point, that they see nothing good in themselves. That to me is the middle ground.

Once again, I suppose everything depends on one`s particular situation. I think an educated Pakistani household to be the best atmosphere for kids. It is not conservative to the point of no communication. And it is not open to the point of daily divorces, and daily worries about underage sex, and so forth.

Question:

Can anyone please explain to me why and how talking about sex with one`s children to leads to divorce? Despite the question raised by both myself and Saima Shah, Romair has repeated this statement again without telling us how.

romair mian,

...... you seem to know even less about sex than you know about the military or pakistani politics .............. so stop passing judgement on a society and people that you seem to know little about ......... regardless of the shoulder length hair ( which, personally i find inappropriate, except for prophets and rock stars), it is not uncommon for those of us who live on the fringe to think that the white man and woman are possessed by demons because they eat pork and imbibe fermented drinks ............ even sillier is the notion that we, desis in general and mohammedans in particular, are somehow free of sin and sexuality.......... on the contrary, if there was any truth to the superstition, most of us would have gone blind by the time we were fourteen and if god was still in the business of flooding out sodomists and pedophiles most of pakistan would be under water and the pathans would have been washed out to sea a long time ago ................

.......... all this talk about the low divorce rate among desis is pure crap and doo doo .......... it is not the result of ``stable`` relationships as you would have us believe, it is because the poor woman has no other option .......... half the desi couples i know, including folks from my father`s generation, would have been much better off if they had decided to split - they continued to live in misery with cataracts, cleft lips, tb and spouses that they hated ..........it has nothing to do with morality and has everything to do with economics............and as far as a desi woman`s sex life goes, according to mrs hamidm most paki women are not too thrilled with their hairy-eared husbands who think a tongue should only be used for reciting the kalima ................laholaywalaquwat !

............ as far as drug use goes, let us get real - i saw more druggies on the streets of pindi in one day than i have seen in a year in america ........... and it is not just the rickshaw drivers and the tonga walas who are shooting heroin and smoking pot .......college students from the middle class are still lighting up just as they they did in the good old days when i was in college ( and yes, sword of honor winners from risalpur also did it!)...........nobody is saying that drugs and alcohol is not a problem in the west - it is, but everyone recognizes it and people are doing something about it ............ on the other hand, most of us refuse to believe the problem exists in the land of the pure ............. as echoed by echoboom all these horrible things happen only in the west while we are on the right path to nowhere .............

.......... it is delusional to think that we are somehow ``better`` and more moral than the west .......... there is more to morality than sex ............ having good sex with a three or four partners during your lifetime is a lot more moral (and enjoyable) than insipid and obligatory sex with one woman (or man) for fifty years ................

.......... so let us not pass on our prejudices to our children - as far as i know, nobody has grown horns because they bumped heads with the opposite sex ! .......... it is cruel and inhuman to stop your daughter from going to the prom - if you can`t trust her, you failed her a long time ago ................