A New Constitution for Pakistan

PS And if you are still not clear on my position, I can only say that I am sorry ... but I really don`t care what you think of my vision ...

So please don`t expect any more replies from me...

Bharatvasi

The General design of the Car `Honda Civic 2003` comes first ... The shape, the look, etc...
Then comes the issue of `specifics`. That is how it works.... Who is saying that we are delivering the car without the specifics, but this article was NOT the proposed constitution, but about the election process and the power of the Executive vs the legislature. I have discussed the question of fundamental rights elsewhere and I have discussed it here again...

Since I have already given you the detail of my own views on public rights, citizens` rights and the responsibility of the state. If you have a problem with them you can ask me, but to keep on accusing me of being an `elite` like broken record isn`t helping you.. You sound like a pathetic loser with a lot of time on his hands.

-Manto

Some Definitions for the underschooled:


Specification:

1. The act of specifying. 2a. specifications A detailed, exact statement of particulars, especially a statement prescribing materials, dimensions, and quality of work for something to be built, installed, or manufactured. b. A single item or article that has been specified. 3. An exact written description of an invention by an applicant for a patent.

(Should the particulars come first or the design?)

Precise :

1. Clearly expressed or delineated; definite: The victim gave a precise description of the suspect. 2. Exact, as in performance, execution, or amount; accurate or correct: a precise measurement; a precise instrument. 3. Strictly distinguished from others; very: at that precise moment. 4. Distinct and correct in sound or meaning: precise pronunciation; precise prose. 5. Conforming strictly to rule or proper form: “The setting up of this Maypole was a lamentable spectacle to the precise separatists that lived at New Plymouth” (Thomas Morton).

good god man, mantolives. Please stop embarassing yourself. YOu need to learn

You say

``Bharatvasi,

Sadly You are the only person in the whole wide world who believes in installing the CD player and the speakers and cushions on the seats, before building the car. I am not sure if you have bought a car ever, but generally the specifications applies to specifics like whether the car has a power steering, power windows etc come afterwards... ``

When you start to design something - you need to understand what that something is supposed to do. Yo udo not just design the thing and off it goes. You just do not design an ATC or car just like that. There are specifications which are developed for these systems. Similarly for any software system be it an accounting system or something else you need specifications and then you design the system and then implement it to get results which should meet specifications.
Things like having cd players etc are not specifications. The end result of using these should be the same as the specifications. I want good music in my car is a specification. I do not care of it comes from a cd player or string orchestra or whatever from the car. These are nothing but sud-systems within the car to meet the specifications I have provided. Similarly with regard to power streeing - my requirement is easy of steering whether it is by power steering or by some new fancy system I couldn`t care less. My specification is not to have over and or under steer I couldnt careless if you use traction control or not. as long as it meets my specifications. Now have you understood the difference here and what I have been trying to tell you. Specification - design - build.

I will give the example:
Good music - design a sound system (speakers -numbers, size, where to place them, type of player Cd/casette etc, power system, noise reduction systems) - now build the thing and put it in place.

Get the drift young man.

Young man you are really shewing yourself to be more of an a$$ and I guess for your sake I will stop here. But I will say that you need a crash course on analysis and design.

and you say``Stop making a fool out of yourself ... ``

Well after the above what can I say - you just made yourself the biggest fool on Chowk. Any semi literate person would have informed you that you were going up the proverbial creek without a paddle ...I wouldnot call you a fool but an ignoramus surely. Over schooled definitely.



-Manto

Here is the charter once again... I can`t understand why this is rubbing Bharatvasi the wrong way... If someone thinks this `vision` is inadequate, then you are welcome to add to it...


1) Equality complete, unconditional, total for all citizens regardless of religion, caste, creed, gender, sexual orientation. I consider all people christians, Hindus, Sikhs, Muslims, Shias, Sunnis, Ahmadis, atheists Men, women, Sindhis, Mohajirs, Punjabis, Pathans, Homosexuals, heterosexuals EQUAL... Equal citizens, Equal Human beings, Equal nationals, Equal Pakistanis, Equal Human beings... (One would have assumed that when one said the Human Rights Charter as per the UN one would mean all of them but not so for Bharatvaasi)

2) Freedom of Speech and expression, complete, total, unconditional ... (I admit that this part will require more tolerance on the part of the society). Open ended ... not limitations because there is often no limitation to limitations.

3) One Person One Vote: Adult Franchise. Universal. No discrimination . All Pakistani Citizens above the age of 18.

4) Sovereignty must rest unconditionally with the people. There can be no compromise.

5) Compulsory Education for all citizens uptil age 14.

What is sad is that I have been harping about the specifics as well as the main body for the last 4 years.. I have written consistently about citizens rights, equality, the limits on state role, the separation of church and state, democracy and adult franchise yet I am the one Bharatvasi has chosen for his vitriolic attack... This article was supposed to talk about the power issues within the Parliament and the executive officer. It was written in response to F R Khan`s article. The purpose of this article was not to put down a definitive constitution of Pakistan which is an exercise for the elected representatives...

Yet when asked I outlined a complete vision for peoples` rights and the state responsibility. But look at the level of nitpicking by this loser. If I say equality ... he says: you mean some are more equal than others. If I say `adult franchise` he says `you mean religious and gender based voting`.. If a person for god knows what reason is hell bent in assuming the worst, one can only assume that he is a pathetic obstructionist, whose only purpose is to waste other peoples` time...

Bharatvasi,

Sadly You are the only person in the whole wide world who believes in installing the CD player and the speakers and cushions on the seats, before building the car. I am not sure if you have bought a car ever, but generally the specifications applies to specifics like whether the car has a power steering, power windows etc come afterwards...

As for your accusations about `elite` etc... wonderful isn`t it, ... I belong to a middle class urban family. You just have no criticism of my vision. You just want to go on accusing me of nothing.

Stop making a fool out of yourself ...

-Manto

Well mantolives you are the first person I know in this whole wide world be lieves in designing and building a vehicle for delivery without specifications. I guess you would happy with any kind of delivery as long as it doesnot disturb the POWER YOU HAVE. Once an elite always an elite whatever the garb you guys wear. Always look after numero uno!


I guess Iwill leave it at that. Though mind you I have had the biggest laugh right now when I saw your note and I quote:

``Bharatvasi,

``Remember specifications first, design later.``


I rest my case. Better `overschooled` than underschooled.

-Manto ``

Becareful in the real world specifications always come first and the design and then build. If want it the other way round be my guest.

Bharatvasi,

``Remember specifications first, design later.``


I rest my case. Better `overschooled` than underschooled.

-Manto

PS: You know who you remind me of? You remind me of the Chief Justice Roy Moore in Montgommery Alabama..

Bharatvaasi,

I might have `modified` my stance on many things, but I have not modified my stance on equality of all citizens, the role of the state, and the concept of secular democracy. That has been consistent. Waisay I think if the poor founding fathers of the United States had your `vision`, there would be a US constitution 5000 pages long. Thank God they didn`t haggle over what was clearly implied. My vision, very clear and precise is for all to see. You on the other hand seem to be arguing about God knows what. Anyone who can pose a counterquestion like `what does equality mean? That some are more equal than others` ... is mentally a diseased invidivual.

Voting is a legal Right and not a legal duty. This is a legal definition. Whether Voting is a Moral obligation is another issue... and there I might even agree that it is a Moral obligation.

My vision is well explained in #122 and #138. I don`t think any further elaboration is required.

``.....(I hope you understand what I am trying to get at here.....) ``

Actually oh great one I don`t. I think you are just wasting your time and mine.

-Manto

No mantolives, there is a need for elaboration -since you are talking of extremely important things like the constitution.

Also `casting your vote` is a right but it is also a DUTY of every adult to ensure that he does so.

If the ciizen abrogates this DUTY then he or she doesnot have much right in complaining. FerozK said something similar in either this borad or on his. It is THE DUTY of a citizen hold the Govt ACCOUNTABLE and one of the ways in which this is done is through the BALLOT BOX.

Dear Manto you need to exert those grey cells of yours. I am sure I donot need to advise you on the taking up some political science classes since you have already done so. Remember I have said your are OVER SCHOOLLED whether you are well schooled or not is yet to be seen - time will tell. You have over the years modified your stance and I am sure given more time you will modify it more.

Remember specifications first, design later.

As to using my hand well old bean (and sort of a thing - see the elite like this angrezibaazi) i donot need to do so since I have the number of beautiful women around me whom I have had the pleasure of knowing (in a biblical sense). I guess you must be wanting the social freedoms afforded to you at Rutgers hence your ......

Mantolives thanks for your comment #159. I am sure they are doing fine and indeed all of them are doing extremely well. My aside on that was just to give you examples of what I was saying.


And for someone who talks of precision you are one hell of a woolly headed person. If you were precise and logical about your framework all these arguments would not have been necessary. Also when you are over precise (as you claim to be) you need to make clarifications - see we are not all not that intelligent or OVER SCHOOLLED as you seem to be.

However, you are taking this discussion down another path. Take care. My guess is that we agree on a number of points but cannot agree on how to get there.....(I hope you understand what I am trying to get at here.....)

PS:

I pity your students. Instead of teaching them the virtues of precision, you are teaching them how to waste their time in mentioning and explaining all that is clearly implied and for everyone to see... This is the desi mentality after all... the more you write more marks you get. Anyway, I don`t have the time for someone who is hell bent on acting like an imbecile.


-Manto

PS:

BTW you have to be kidding me... I defined the responsibility of the state in my initial post... Like I said you suffer from circular focus... The best cure is ... I already told you the cure...

Post 122: ``The state`s responsibility is simple: law and order and administration of Justice``

I know that answer may not be too `elaborate` for you, but for those who are grounded in political science theory will understand exactly what that means.

Bharat vaasi,

In this world there are many things that are `implied`. For your information `Casting a vote` is a RIGHT and not a DUTY. Nobody is going to put you in a jail if you don`t vote.

You are the one living in the strange world... I suggest you try and take a few basic political science classes at any university or college near you, and while you are at it, also try your hand at ... ahem.. You know what.

-Manto