Telic Chowk: A Personal Odyssey

manto,

............ i actually agree with you ........ as i a mater of fact i would go further and say that most of the stuff contained in the koran (and bible and torah) was bad for all times ................stuff written by misogynistic old men who loved their camels and sheep more than their concubines .........trying to fix it , reinterpret it, or revise it is a futile attempt - it would be like trying to reengneer the trabant in the hope that it will come to resemble a ferrari (or honda city) ........ here and there, somewhere, there might be some goodness, but it is quite irrelevant in today`s world ........it is time to throw out 4:34 out with 1:1 - think about it, what does alif laam meem mean ?........ if it is an iside joke between him, gabriel and the prophet, why do we keep on repeating it without knowing what the heck it is all about? ...... weird, if you ask me ..............

............ so if i fault you for anything, i fault you for suggesting that somehow we can can gather a few bearded ones around a plate of halwa and update the koran through ijthehad.........not possible ......... now, i am not suggesting we should quit calling ourselves muslims and stop celebrating basant, eid and shab-i-baraat ......... on the contrary, i am suggesting we should fly more kites, let off more firecrackers and sacrifice more sheep............but we should stop taking the koran seriously ............ we should wrap it up in velvet and put it up on the mantle and blow kisses at it every time we leave the house ............ we should revere the book but we don`t have to make a fool out of ourselves by actually trying to follow it ................

Mantolives #111 In response to your question, kindly re-read last line of my post #103. The thing I am defending is the right of the left side (the rational side) of your brain to be used.

Quranic Verse 2:282

``Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses,
out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women,
such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can
remind her``

This is law of evidence in Islamic Law...

Will tahmed and other defenders of the faith please explain the universality of this verse?

-Manto

PS

What is required is an `Ijmah-ul-Ummah` to declare 4:34 and the Verse in Surah Baqarah which establishes women as half of the man to null and void for our times...

Unless that is done... we will continue to go around in circles.

-Manto

Bina Shah,

We are not the ones fighting against womens` rights... quite the contrary we are arguing for complete equality of women ... We are just saying that harping back to the Quran isn`t going to help women in anyway... I am quite familiar with the feminist interpretations, especially that of Fatima Mernissi... the fact of the matter is however, that it remains simply a desire, kash kay aisa hota. The fact is that 4:34 explicitly talks of the right of men to beat the women...

Muslims have to face the demons and the skeletons if they have to embrace the modern world... a new non-literal understanding the Quran with its proper place in history and advancement of civilization is required... perhaps it is time we started asking the questions as to why Quran wasn`t compiled until the rule of Umar the second caliph, and why was only one version retained under Osman, and all other versions destroyed.

-Manto

I do apologize... I meant Riffat Hassan. Not Riffat Hussein.

For those of you who are interested in the debate on 4:34 I suggest you turn to those who have more knowledge of Islam than yourselves (said very tongue in cheek) and look up not the traditional but the feminist interpretations of Quran by world renowned scholars including Amina Wadud and Riffat Hussain. They have some very interesting takes on the wording of 4:34 including the idea that the verse that outlines men`s superiority to women (supposed) is actually talking about the fact that God has bestowed economic wealth to men more than to women, as opposed to mental or physical superiority. Etc. etc. etc.

Go on, I dare any of you to actually read some of this stuff and report back here on what you`ve learned.

tahmed,

What is being attributed to you is the blind following of the Quran... that is not even the point... what I am trying to tell you is to `live and let live`...

I am not entirely sure as to what you are trying to accomplish by childishly repeating again and again that you didn`t read my posts? I know that ... I am well aware that my posts were beyond you given your simplistic `Quran is for all times and is Universal argument and is liberal and progressive and has all the science contained in it` understanding.


Hamidm,

I find it amazing but not surprising that you chose my `time specific` statement to criticize ... when your buddy tahmed is the one who is claiming that Quran and its message is completely egalitarian, progressive, liberal, and modernist in its spirit... that nothing in the Quran stops women from getting equal rights, and nothing in the Quran allows men to beat their wives... I am afraid `time specific` is the best I can do to explain my position vis a vis the Quran given my current presence in Pakistan and the existence of draconian laws contained in Pakistan Penal Code 295 A, B, C... but I hope you would stretch the limits of what I mean when I say it is time specific...

Tahmed is making tall claims about the Quran which just can`t be proved by the good book. But I still get chosen for your ire ...

-Manto

Mantolives #99 I have good news. I actually read this post (unlike some of your previous posts). I see you continue to attribute things to me (e.g. when you indicate that I condone male domination over women, and on the question of time-specificity, when I said the opposite in my earlier post on this issue) without taking the trouble of indicating where I wrote these conclusions.

Try to meet certain basic standards of logic and accuracy if you wish to discuss anything with me.

Naqshbandi #96 From a Man Eater`s point of view, a Chicken Eater or a Veggie Eater is a savage. Similarly, from a Man Worshipper`s point of view, a God Worshipper is a kafir. This is the Law of Communal Relativity. You just illustrated this Law in your post. Congratulations.

Give my regards to your Al-Hazrat Dead Arab Men. Dont spend all night praying in the graveyard though.

....... ``I believe most of the Quran was time specific``

..........so now this is the line used by apologists and revisionists to explain the silliness in god`s infallible word which was supposed to be good for all times..........what a dishonest cop out!............ does this mean we can discard most of what is contained in the book and instead use common horse sense to live our lives? ....... fine with me, but i still don`t understand it ...... are we saying that god was not thinking ahead when he gave permission to the seventh century bedouin to beat his wife if she got out of line and intended to revise his decision for the modern woman............ how can that be, and what kind of god would allow a poor women to be beaten just because that was the norm of the day? .......... and why can`t we interpret his will to justify honor killings and occasional wife beatings today?.........exactly when did the rules change?............. it just doesn`t add up, does it? .................

............ and who decides what was time specific and what was not?........ what about drinking, a subject so near and dear to my heart? ......... now that we have invented liquor that won`t make you go blind and we even have the atkins approved low carb beer that won`t make you fat, can we drink in ``moderation`` as long as we have a designated driver?......... if not, why not?.......... and what about riba as long as it is not two percentage points over the prime rate?............and since we have invented chairs why can`t we sit up like civilized people and pray without unnecessarily torturing our ankles?............ you see how silly this sounds?................

.........folks who say this kind of stuff are trying to find wriggle room where none exists and in the process make complete fools out of themselves ............... i actually have a lot more respect for people like naqshbandi who do not disguise their irrational faith with ridiculous logic............

Manto,

``I believe most of the Quran was time specific``

Only if the majority of Muslims could come to grip with that...what a wonderful the world of Islam would be...

That `is` in the last line should be substituted with `are`

PS:

Tolerance, real tolerance that is (not in razzz royal fashion) , demands of us that all three of us, Tahmed, Naqsh, and myself be allowed to live according to our own belief systems without any harassment.

Is tahmed and Naqshbandi willing to give me that much?

tahmed,

1) Can you conceive of a position within the circle of Islam where a person might believe in God, associate with Islam and claim himself to be a Muslim but not believe in the Dogma? If you can conceive of such a position then I am a Muslim... if you can`t, then in your eyes I am an agnostic or whatever.

2) 4:34 is part of the Quran... I choose to think of it as time specific... I think it is absolutely unacceptable to conceive of male domination over women... I also don`t believe in half witness of a woman also part of the Quran by the way. I believe most of the Quran was time specific, and Islam was largely through the master signifier ie Prophet Muhammad. I think there was a Good reason why a farsighted and brilliant leader and statesman like Muhammad didn`t order the compilation of the Quran.

You on the other hand keep harping back to the Quran without anything solid from the good book to prove your assertions... the difference between you and me is essentially that of an apologist and a Historian. You continue to explain and glorify Islam.... I investigate its moral social cultural and political antecedents..

We will leave it to the people of Chowk to decide which is the better option.

Naqsh #96

`` Therefore his belief is NOT `puritanical` but pure kufr--IF he actually rejects ALL hadith. If not ALL then it is still deviancy and heresy. ``

I can bet that both you and tahmed are twins... you have identical positions... You both denigrate other people and you both self righteously consider yourselves to be the best Muslims...

What I shudder to ask, you think of the Perwaizi Tolu-e-Islam school of thought?