Telic Chowk: A Personal Odyssey

Naqshbandi,

Last time we exchanged notes … I challenged you to substantiate lies that you spoke about Mirza Sahib. Note that your cousin Urstruly looked into those allegations … and admitted that they were not true. You could not take up this challenge … and instead changed your story. Instead of being forthright and honest, you chose to be slippery and dodgy.

Disgusted by your chicanery, I likened you and your ullema to gutter cockroaches and worse. It sounded harsh … but still rings true.

If you have any civility … you’d admit that you bungled up. Telling me not to speak to you does not solve this problem. Once you accept your mistake, I’ll review your request of not speaking to you. Deal?

sattar2 -- please don`t even talk to me. ever.

re: #140 by Mantolives
Thanks for the post.
Yes, indeed. Pak needs a legal system that is strong enough to defend individual rights of its citizens and also keep fundametalist elements at bay. There is nothing wrong in people like Naqshbandi ranting about the greatness of Holy Qoran or any other scripture in public or private as long as they do not cause any harm. So, the fundamental rights must have some caveats built into them and legal framework should be strong. I hope to God Pak does have this. Sooner the better.
Sridhar

re:#138 by AlephNull
Thanks for the info. I know the movie had Spencer Tracy in it. As well as Marlyn Dietrich (remember Witness to Prosecution?).
Sridhar

Naqshbandi Sahib ...

While you parrot your belief in the whole of Quran ... lets`s not forget the idea of abrogating Quranic verses proposed by your own mullahs. It seems that they are ready with the revised edition of Quran ... and are waiting for the right opportunity.

Also ... let`s not forget the position of your mullahs ... that of death for adultery and apostasy etc. ... which runs counter to Quranic injunctions. Perhaps it is these injunctions that your mullah finds loathsome ... and is ready to overwrite with questionable, twisted ahadith. Introductory comments from Maudoodi will make it compulsory for believing men to regularly beat up their wives between isha and traveeh, accept mutah as a valid form of convenient sex with strangers, and that sending biryani and haleem to the local imam on daily basis will guarantee a momin a few extra virgins in the hereafter.

Do check with your local imam when is the 2nd version of the Quran due. I think gabriel no longer makes appearances ... but then again ... your mullah may find a hadith to make an exception here as well ...

manto: the qur`an itself addresses people like you who `believe in only those parts of the book they agree with`:-

Allah says:-

...Do you then believe in a part of the Book and disbelieve in the other? What then is the re ward of such among you as do this but disgrace in the life of this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be sent back to the most grievous chastisement, and Allah is not at all heedless of what you do. (Quran: 2:85)

manto:

I am not trying to pass a fatwa or anything but what you wrote in #154 is clear and manifest kufr as it means you are not believing in the whole Qur`an.

The point is that while you can imbibe that is good from the Quran if you want since it is a fascinating read for some, nothing should stop us from rejecting all that is not in harmony with Modern human values....

-Manto

The Grand Inquisitor Hamidim Inquires: ``...... if you are really not that hung up on the book then what are you arguing with manto and naqshbandi about? ``

With manto: I was trying NOT to be dragged into a religious discussion.
With naqsh: There wasnt much any argument. I was just inquiring into the health and well-being of the Thousand and One Deceased Arab Men.

You also say: ``your approach is not a whole lot different than mine ``

It is. But like I said, enough of this religious discussion for a while. Meanwhile your kid is reading the Quran in Arabic from a mullah, and mine is not (having been given the choice to read it as and when she wishes, and in a language she can understand). (Sorry to drag the kids back into the discussion).

Since this board has taken the turn to be a culture and religion board:

Scout: I agree with the language bit, rather than forcing a language onto kids that they can`t use, ABCD kids should be taught a little of the language their parents speak - this will connect them to their culture much more than being forced to go to a school to learn something completely foreign.

I believe children learn about the culture and religion from their parents, whether the parents like it or not, they`ll have to answer their kids questions - and improvise - look within themselves for certain answers, seek help etc.

Maybe instead of Quran schools for kids there should be group meetings for like minded parents - you know moderates on one side and traditionalists on the other or something like that.

hamidm

... temporal`s poetry is a lot better ...

la-haul-e-wala...or as a fellow curmudgeon used to say...astaghfirallah!

...as i said somewhere...there is a leak...;)

Dost-mittar:

Thanks for the clarification. Now that you mention, I did notice very ornate
photos of the Gurus and the Golden Temple this friend`s parents house - much more
so than in her own apartment. They are probably in their late 60`s/early 70`s, and
originally from West Punjab.

I am sorry that this jaagran disease is spreading to Punjabis as well. Watch any
Zee tele-serial for a couple of episodes, and there are fawning references to these
events and other random god-men/women. Couldn`t we find better ways to regress ?

plats8:
``But among the various pictures of gods and goddesses they have displayed in their
various rooms, there is also a large photo of Harminder sahib and the various Sikh
gurus. I`m curious if this sort of syncretic worship is a common thing for Punjabi
hindus.``
Yes, it is, though less so among the younger generation. The older Hindus tended to visit gurudwaras more often than mandirs, but the situation is now changing with Hindus more likely to have Jaagrans than Gurbaani paath.

To a lesser extent, older sikhs also had this multiple attachment. Maharaja Ranjit Singh`s priest was a Hindu brahmin and every royal activity was done according to Mahurat by him and usually a Hindu holy day, such as Dussehra, was picked for launching important initiatives.

This is now mostly history. The modern sikh prefers to define himself in a more exclusive, almost `not hindu` terms, with sometimes most unfortunate results. On the second story of the Golden temple were old wall paintings with the Sikh gurus and Hindu avatars, Ram and Krishna. Recently, in the name of renovation, the paintings of the Hindu gods were whitewashed, thus losing some priceless treasures of the Sikh art.


(Digression) The performance by Rajendra Kandalgaonkar took place as scheduled despite the electricity problem. The city hall booked for the concert was cancelled out because of the uncertainty of the revolving power outages and the event was shifted at the last minute to someone`s basement. It did lend an intimacy to the concert not possible in a regular hall. He proved to be quite accomplished, especially enjoyable was his rendering of Shudh Kalyan and Madhu Kauns.

hamidm #139

A friend of my wife is trying to inculcate ``Indian`` values in her 4 year old daughter
and keeps coercing her to greet people with a ``Jai Sri Krishna`` instead of Hi. I think
they are negotiating to settle for Sat Sri Akal, finally.

By the way, there`s a standing invitation for you to visit the Bay area (if you don`t
live here already, of couse).

Dost-mittar,

A question for you. This friend that I mention is a Punjabi Hindu, as is her husband.
But among the various pictures of gods and goddesses they have displayed in their
various rooms, there is also a large photo of Harminder sahib and the various Sikh
gurus. I`m curious if this sort of syncretic worship is a common thing for Punjabi
hindus.

tahmed,

...... thanks for the clarification - if you treat the koran as just another ``fascinating`` book and don`t regard it is the infallible word of god or try to live your life according to its injunctions, you are okay and your approach is not a whole lot different than mine ............ although i must admit i don`t find the koran to be that fascinating and quite tedious to read - temporal`s poetry is a lot better ..............

...... if you are really not that hung up on the book then what are you arguing with manto and naqshbandi about?

hamidm2 #145 I dont think I am obsessed by the Quran - all I am saying is that I find it a fascinating book to read.

This month, I also read another fascinating book to read ``Transducing the Genome``. I guess that makes me a Bioinformatics-Quran-Obsessed-Nut.

And sadly, I must admit to having read a book about the Bataan death march some time back. So I must admit to being a Bataanic-Bioinformatics-Quran-Obsessed-Nut.

And while we are at it, I might as well confess to having read The Lord of the Rings too. That puts me totally beyond the pale of civilized society I guess.

I feel better now, having confessed to my sins. May the Great Bishop Hamidm have mercy on my soul. May Naqshbandi of a Thousand and One Dead Arabs spend long nights in the graveyard praying for my salvation.

tahmed,

............. please don`t drag my kid into this - it is all mrs hamidm`s fault ......... as i pointed out, those of us who can`t take multilple wives (and concubines) as instructed by the koran, have to do what our wives want us to do or else we don`t get any biryani ...........i know, man does not live by biryani alone and principles are more important and all that, but what can i say, i rate biryani right up there ........... personally, i don`t care if my kid reads the koran or not - as a kid i ``finished`` it a couple of times in arabic and only when i read it as an adult in english did i realize what a terrible thing i had been exposed to and decided to take corrective action ........... so as long as my child does not understand what she is reading i think she is quite safe ................. my older one who is headed off to college in a year or so hasn`t touched the book in years so i feel we are okay ...... but thanks for your concern anyway..............

....... but seriously, what drives me nuts is your obsession with the koran which is worse than naqshbandi`s obsession with the sunnah ...... at least the sunnah has some historical basis wheras the koran could be a figment of someone`s imagination ................

hamidm2 #139 Let`s see now:
(a) You dont think the Quran is worthwhile reading, I think it is. BUT

(b) Your kid continues to be taught the Quran by a maulvi. My kid has rejected the maulvi, and I as the parent have respected her logic and wishes. She now has the choice of reading the Quran out of her own free will as and when she wishes.

(c) You think the Quran stinks, and anyone who thinks otherwise suffers from some ``virulent form of the disease``. I think the Quran is a fascinating book to read ( and thus suffer from some disease, per your view). However, if someone does not read the Quran, that is fine (as I have stated) since I dont consider the Quran to be the only source of learning how to be a good human being.

Based on the above, it seems to be you have some serious problems to grapple with - your kid does things (read the Quran from the maulvi) that you dont think she should but your wife things she should. You think anyone who differs from your point of view has a disease of some kind (which is the same mindset as that of a maulvi).

Congratulations: you just proved that bigots come in many forms, and religious bigots are only one such form.

The movie was called `Inherit the wind`

-Manto

sridhar...any argument against the Bible cannot be used analogously against the Qur`an Sharif because the Qur`an is free from any errors/contradictions as it has been protected from corruption by Allah Himself.

I won`t apologize for anything :P

Rsidhar...

Yes!! By joe!!!

I think the movie was called Blasphemy but I might be wrong... the end of the pompous biblical authority was very sad... I sincerely hope Naqshbandi doesn`t go down that way.. I hope however that a strong legal system can do for Pakistan what the court system did for that conservative christian state. It can overcome their religiousity and reform them for the new age... I think the verdict of $100 fine was hilarious. It really took the wind out of the religio-fanatics.

But first we need a legal system that works! In Pakistan that is...

-Manto

dost-mittar,

......... i agree with you - exposing a child to any religion can be dangerous as they can catch a virulent form of the disease and end up like naqshbandi or tahmed .........if I had my druthers maulvi sahib, and his god, wouldn’t dare cross my threshold ...........but mrs hamidm disagrees and since I don’t have a backup wife or concubine I have to do her bidding ............ at times like this I begin to see the wisdom of verses like 4:34!

.......... as for my kids not liking Indians, it is one of the many things I say from time to time just to make a point which are quite untrue and don’t have any foundation in fact ............ as a matter of fact almost half my older daughter’s friends are indians (the other half are jewish or presbyterian ) and we always keep a box of veggie-burgers in the freezer in case one of them goes nuts and becomes a vegetarian ........... we had an episode last year when a perfectly sane girl came back from India and insisted on worshiping the hamburger instead of eating it! ............ however, I am glad to report that, alhamdolillah, she is cured and back to normal ........... most of the horrible hindoos I know seem to be quite casual in their approach to religion – no statues of monstrous looking gods in the foyer and no agarbatis to make you dizzy (although the stench of heeng is not any better) .......... this is in remarkable contrast to all the muslims I know who have at least one picture of the kaaba on the wall and a silly clock that wails like a banshee five times a day........... although I must say I have run into some rather unlikable Brahmin types who have silly little temples in their basement and force their kids to do poojah every day ................

............. but going back to your point of exposing kids to religion, I must admit that there is always the danger that at some point, when they are looking for an identity or gain forty pounds and can’t fit into their hip-huggers, they might revert to being fanatics like that kid in the movie “my son”................. i see that happening all the time – perfectly good kids who go to college, join the msa, don the hijab and waste their time protesting the occupation and confronting equally stupid jewish kids with beanies and strange hair............ unfortunately, at least in America, you almost have to have a religion of some kind – everyone has one and being an atheist or agnostic is really too much trouble...........you have to really give it a lot of thought before you can declare yourself an atheist, it is much easier being a mindless catholic, muslim, hindoo or jew instead of having to explain why you don’t believe in god – the discussion can go on for ever .......... it is much easier to say, “yes I believe in allah who was christ’s father and muhammad is his prophet ”, and go back to drinking beer with bubba ............the problem starts when you really start believing in your religion .................

#135 rsridhar

The movie you saw was probably a film version of the play `Inherit the Wind` which is somewhat loosely based on the notorious 1925 Scopes Trial (or `Monkey Trial`) in Dayton, Tennessee. The pompous prosecutorial windbag in the historical case was William Jennings Bryan, a famous orator, former Secretary of State and a repeat candidate for President of the US; the defense was headed by the famous socialist lawyer and agnostic Clarence Darrow.

re:#116 by Naqshbandi
I saw a movie sometime ago in the Turner Movie Classics Channel. I do not recall the name but it was about religion versus science. One schoolteacher is arrested because he taught Darwin`s theory of evolution in a school in Nebraska (must have happened at least 80 years ago). Devout christians were up in arms, protesting his teachings. He is jailed and is defended by an upright lawyer who believes only in Science and its evidence. He actually calls the prosecutor (who is also a well known authority on the Bible) as a witness and tears his argument about infallibility of Biblical teachings to shreds. The prosecutor pompously remarks that God created the world at 9 am on 4004 BC on a Friday! The defending lawyer shows an ancient piece of rock that had fossils embedded in it dating back to millions of years.
You remind me of that prosecutor, the biblical authority. You, like him, are a pompous A$$.
Sridhar

getting maulvis to teach ABCD kids how to read the Quran is the rage these days, stemming from some kind of parental guilt and obligation. i don`t think anything good is achieved by it. what good is learning a language you don`t understand?

ABCD kids need to be taught urdu more than they need to be taught ARabic.

Mantolives #133 I accept your apologies, even though they seem qualified with references to my humor having the same affect as abuse. To be realistic, I cannot promise that I shall stay away from humor in the course of chowk interactions, so perhaps the best thing is not to have much interaction with me if you find my ``pathetic humor`` offensive.

As for whether or not the Quran establishes male chauvinism, I already answered this question once (see my post #89 below). You may agree or disagree with what I wrote, or expand further on it. However, you have merely ignored what I wrote and that is why you come back with the same question. This does not indicate much respect for the time I took trying to give a thoughtful answer to your question. In any case, as I said at the beginning of this discussion, I have already said all I want to say about religion on chowk, and dont wish to start another religious discussion to go over things I have written before on chowk. Thanks for the interaction, sorry for any hurt feelings due to my humor.

tahmed,

By the way ... very smart that child of yours... Hopefuly she will teach her father a thing or two... about the usage of the left side of the brain.


-Manto

I consider your pathetic attempts to humor as abuse... anyway I apologize for suggesting you abused me.. obviously you are much more of a gentleman to utter abusive language.. yet the effect was same.


``My problem comes when people (extremists of the jamaatiya kind or of the anti-Islam kind) start representing as Islam things that go counter to the substance of the Quranic teachings``

This brings us back to the original debate... doesn`t Quran establish male chauvinism? Doesn`t it give men the right to beat their wives black and blue? If you think it doesn`t then to use temporal`s analogy, you haven`t even realized that there is a leak in the pipe.

Quran should be read as a fascinating historical document, time specific and momentous yet irrelevant to modern day.. or parts of it anyway.

-Manto

hamidm2 #128 I have no problem with someone not reading the Quran. After all, the substantive things in the Quran (i.e. values) would already have been taught to anyone going to a good kindergarten school or raised in a good home (i.e. dont lie or steal, use your mind, dont bully weaker people, respect all communities and beliefs, and so forth). So, the Quran is not the only source for building character.

My problem comes when people (extremists of the jamaatiya kind or of the anti-Islam kind) start representing as Islam things that go counter to the substance of the Quranic teachings. There is a 180 degree difference between the jamaatiya chauvinism and Quranic teachings. And that has generally been the context in which I have been referring to the Quran on chowk. That is to keep the record straight, to expose the hollowness of muslim chauvinists.

My own child rebelled and refused to attend Sunday school saying it made no sense to read a book without understanding it. Since the logic was hard to beat, my wife and I agreed on the condition that she would read the Quran in English on her own. I am not pushing her to read the book, although one day I hope she will do so by choice. This is not because reading the Quran is necessary to make her a good person or a good muslim (we have already done our part by focussing on values when raising kids), but because the Quran is (a) a fascinating book to read imho, and (b) provides a good yardstick with which to expose the hollowness of muslim chauvinists, maudoodiites and other shady characters who go around talking about Islam.

Mantolives #130 While it is nice of you to think of saluting me, I think an apology for your lying about my having inflicted a ``barrage of abuse`` on you would be more appropriate.

tahmed,

The left side of my brain processes information in the following way:

Info bit :1) You believe Quran is a universal code with universal values.

Info bit :2) Quran has 4:34 and 2:282 .... it is a fact.

Conclusion: Hence the logical conclusion is that you believe in 4:34 and 2:282

---

If indeed for some contradictory human reason that is not your position, I salute you. Like I said I don`t believe in Quran to be a source of morality for all times. I can care less what you believe in, but I think coming to a website just to pick on people for their beliefs is rather lame.


-Manto

hamidm:
``when my ten year old asks me why she has to read with the hated maulvi sahib i simply tell her that it is not any different from going to kumon math or gymnastics classes``

I remember Tariq Ali telling how he had to listen to the maulvi when he was a kid even though his father and uncle were both Marxists.

Frankly, I see very little hope for the umma if even the non-believers living in America have to force their kids to listen to the maulvi. I remember your once mentioning how your daughter does not like Indians. My daughters, on the other hand, call me a Muslim hating bigot because of my views about Islamists.

I suggest you see/read `My son the fanatic`.

tahmed,

...... i think you misunderstood me - i actually meant that we should ignore what is in the book because there is nothing worthwhile in it and all it does is add to the confusion ............ the problem with us muslims is that we take our religion too seriously..........why can`t we we content with being ``cultural`` muslims, celebrate eid and basant and forget about trying to find sense in nonsense ............

........ it can be done ......... here is how i do it ........when my ten year old asks me why she has to read with the hated maulvi sahib i simply tell her that it is not any different from going to kumon math or gymnastics classes .......... when she is twenty one she can decide whaether she wants to be a muslim or become a buddhist .........personally, i will be danged if i take the responsiblity of turing her into a flaming muslima ............ being a pretty smart kid she gets it and, mashallah, she is parroting arabic like a bedouin without worrying about whether a big mac is haram ........... it is pretty easy, really............

.........so stop picking on manto who seems to be on the right path (not sirat ul mustaqeem).......... maybe we should get together over a bottle of single of sngle malt and i will explain to you what life is all about ............ better still, talk to my friend tehsin and he will tell you all about how socrates and plato had this thing resolved way back when ( being the cheap bas**d that he is, you will have to buy the wne )................

fuzair bhai

---

I honestly cannot even remember the last time we interacted on Chowk so it was just an overlook; I STILL can`t recall who you are! I try not to hate anyone per se only the wrong beliefs. So sorry for overlooking you :-) I try to follow the maxim of ``love only for the sake of Allah and hate only for the sake of Allah``.

:-)

Mantolives #122 And one more thing: having been similarly accused by Jay, Harimau and friend in the past of saying things I never did, and after they failed my challenge to cut and paste what I wrote, I advised them that this proved them to be liars.
In the post I just sent, I was more generous to you and simply advised you to get your head checked. In the interests of fairness (since those three gentlemen were Indian and you are Pakistani, and I do not wish to distinguish between chowk posters based on nationality), let me then re-word my previous post and advise you the same thing. Namely, that in addition to getting your head examined, you need to also do something about this habit of making up convenient things. Or lies, to be blunt. Let it not be said that I treat Pakistani liars differently than Indian liars.

So, now the burden is on you to back your accusations by cutting and pasting as I indicated in my note below.

Mantolives #122 ``What did I get in return... a barrage of abuse ``
Kindly cut and paste from any of my posts below an example - just one, single example of the ``barrage of abuse`` - that you complain of.

If unable to do so, I trust you will take my advice and try and jump start the left side (rational side) of your brain. Or you can continue to live detached from reality. That is OK with me too.

Naqshbandi:

I have heard that some pirs who are known for their karaamaats sometimes advise to sit for a 40-day chillaa. Some very restrictive dos & dont`s are a pre-requisite for the chilaa to bring results. It has also been said that some shayateen under various guises try to disrupt the chillaa by creating mental mayhems.

There are lots of shayaateen around or lurking in the wings to harm your steadfastness. Please do not give-in. The consequences of not coming through the trials & tribulations are unspeakably horrendous.

speed-up the tasbeehs and say the lahauls louder & louder. The power that you can muster has seldom failed to work. These same shayateen will eventually end up in your service .

---

Whoever is true to his faith, even in the faith of unbelief, shall always be at peace with himself. The doubters have always lost. Even those who were not firm in the creed of atheism & secularism had to give-in to those who stuck to their belief . Every human, after all, is Time & Space specific--and even during the short period of his id & idiocy refuses to concur that to err is the very definition of being a human. Erasers with pencils and deletes on keyboards are so obvious & ubiquitous reminders that we fail to appreciate their presence.

Socrates, Ghalib, Shakespeare, or Iqbal (mere men, ony human , but great men nevertheless); when their words transcend milleniums are still called classics. Nothing great is Time-specific or Space -specic. The marketplace is always the test--and not the pandering or promotion by publishers,professors, or critics. The louder the shrill of the mullah to `promote` the book and the heavier the hand of the uniformed/uninformed-monkeys to suppress the book the more will be entrenched in our impoverished modernity.

The absence of policemen and beggars in any society is an indication that the society follows a just creed. In Pakistan, the army has become THE police and the Commander-cum-Ceo is the Top Beggar in the international arena.

Why are we having such intellectual foreignish discussions? How can excreta be declared paak?

---

Through interpretation? reformation? modernisation? by acquiring educ-aids-tion?

The only first step I can think of is to make Sattar Edhi the President emeritus and for mushharraf seek guidance from him publicly--on live-TV everyday. His minions, asskissers, will follow too and respect & honour edhi look-alikes and do-alikes.

Unless mushharraf does that he will always be the performing monkey for the U.S

Mantolives #121 Good, good. The first glimmerings of humor from the young Pakistani Grey Wolf. You hang out long enough with Tahmed, and you will stop taking yourself so seriously. Indeed you may even one day aspire to a second job as stand-up comedian (in-between your onerous nation-building tasks, that is).

And alas, I do not beat my wife. She beats me in everything though. In common sense, in real humor, in personality, the list goes on. I just hang out on chowk and beat up on poor Naqshbandi, Scholar Urstruly and the Thakeray boys. Sometimes I pick on the future Father of the Nation, the Great Grey Wolf.

temporal,

I had merely tried to point out tahmed32 that he should try to be a little tolerant of others opinions ... and not always ram his self righteous `only Quran and nothing else` logic down everyone`s throat... What did I get in return... a barrage of abuse ... If I respond in kind.. everyone will say that YLH is back to his old ways of insulting older people. Tell me shouldn`t the older people act their age and not make an ass of themselves...

Undoubtedly the leak is there... but are people like tahmed cognizant of it? Doesn`t the Quran incite violence against women and promote gender discrimination? How long will people continue to hide these facts about our religion ? How long are we going to declare the Quran to be universal and humanistic and for all times?

I say this fully cognizant of the fact that I sit in the land of 295 A B C...

-Manto

tahmed (the self styled rationalist, Quranic scholar and closet wife beater)

Bhai kiya hansana thaa? Tell me in advance next time.. because I really don`t want to hurt your feelings... ha ha .. does that solve your problem? Next time try adding some fibre to your diet... a much easier cure!

Now coming to the issue at hand... I have already declared rather explicitly that I don`t (emphasis on `DON`T`) consider Quran to be a Universal source of morality. You on the other hand continue to worship the Holy Quran... So tell me do you beat your wife or not?

fuzair welcome back...

dil chota na karaiN...attribute it to memory;)

re: the scholarly postulations on islam (hamidm, tahmed32, naqshbandi, manto, sameerjb, bina et all)

this is my read when i read your lines (and between the lines)...the pipe has a leak whether the leak is slow or fast...whether it can be fixed or not...how to fix it...you repeat theoft repeated lines and positions...

...but must admit find this encouraging: that we are becoming increasingly cognizant...and in this i find hope

hamidm #112 ``but we should stop taking the koran seriously ............ we should wrap it up in velvet and put it up on the mantle and blow kisses at it every time we leave the house ............ we should revere the book but we don`t have to make a fool out of ourselves by actually trying to follow it ................ ``

But this is precisely what is done!! A ``religious`` muslim house will have more magical tokens (names of Allah, Mohammed, pictures of the hajj, tasbih`s, the Quran ``wrapped up in velvet and put on a mantle to be revered`` as you say but with its teachings ignored) than a witch doctor`s hut in deepest Africa. All they lack is the voodoo doll (but dont tell Naqshbandi that or he will add that to the list).

Mantolives #115 Seriously, the right side of your brain has administered a coup d`etat on the left side. The left side of your brain will then shrivel (``if you dont use it you lose it``) and you will be reduced to repeating emotionally charged inanities not just on chowk but off it as well. Your bride will then take a stick and beat YOU up despite your protests that per section 4:34 of the Good Book it is you who is supposed to beat her up five times a day (and once on Eid for good measure). Even urstruly (who will no doubt come running with a scholarly treatise on why women are pawns of the devil and therefore need to be beaten regularly) will be of no use, and indeed your bride will beat him up too. Naqshbandi will come running to save you by quoting from the hadith and from his one thousand and one holy men (long dead, alas).

THEN you will be sorry you did not listen to the good advice of Tahmed!! Then you will beg to be forgiven for claiming that Tahmed has a thick skull!! But it will be too late. Your bride will thrash the stuffing out of you (and your good buddies naqshbandi and urstruly) with a good strong stick even as all three of you plead the 4:34th!!

Re: Naqshbandi`s much earlier post

I`m truly hurt that I didn`t even merit an Honourable Mention in your list of Least Favourite Chowkies! Is this a case of out of sight, out of mind? A simple overlooking? Or are you coming around to my earlier views? Or are you reaaaaly insulting me by ignoring me?

I am truly hurt.

But still,

Kindest regards.

Fuzair

every letter, zabar, zair, pesh, word and ayat of the Quran Sharif is absolutely Truth and unchangable for all time.

To disbelieve in even one letter of it is enough to take one out of Islam.

**
Syed Hossain Nasr has said something very interesting. He said that Muslims change society to be in line with the Book rather than the other way round. Subhan Allah!

Hamidm,

Agreed.. if you only let some of that penetrate into the the thick skulls of the likes of tahmed.



To the incredibly young tahmed,

I see that beyond the sense of humor of a 10 year old, you don`t have much to offer do you... as for the use of `rational side` of the brain... dude you are the one who was harping about Quran`s universality... and now you are talking about rational sense?

Simple question.. considering 4:34 and 2:282 do you still consider Quran to be the Universal message for all times?

Answer the question instead of acting like an immature imbecile who gets off insulting others...

-Manto

Bina Shah: I first came across this Pakistani penchant for looking towards ``world reknowned scholars`` you bring up (as opposed to common sense) even for the simplest of issues when I went to the Panjab University, and confirmed it later at the civil services academy.

In the Panjab University, teachers simply dictated what various writers had to say about an issue. Never challenged the student to use his own mind. At the civil services academy, where we would have discussions on issues related to public administration where the participants would actually (I am not making this up) start with ``Aflatoon naiN kaha....``, or ``Iskardu naiN socha...``. (Aflatoon = Plato, Iskardu = Socrates). I soon realized the problem with our entire education system: it is geared to removing confidence of the student in his own ability to think. And to replace it with slavish dependence on ``world reknowned scholars``. (I quit the service as fast as my feet could carry me once I realized what I was getting into).

So: please dont just merely drop names of ``world reknowned scholars`` who need to be studied before one decides whether muslim men should start beating up their wives five times a day (once after each prayer), with an extra beating on Eid Day in honor of the holiday. Does your common sense say it is OK for a man to beat his wife? And if there are references in the Quran to this effect, then wouldnt you to read for yourself what the Quran has to say and reach your own conclusions?

(btw: Amina Wadud and Riffat Hussain are ``world reknowned scholars``? I must be a world famous poet then.)

manto,

............ i actually agree with you ........ as i a mater of fact i would go further and say that most of the stuff contained in the koran (and bible and torah) was bad for all times ................stuff written by misogynistic old men who loved their camels and sheep more than their concubines .........trying to fix it , reinterpret it, or revise it is a futile attempt - it would be like trying to reengneer the trabant in the hope that it will come to resemble a ferrari (or honda city) ........ here and there, somewhere, there might be some goodness, but it is quite irrelevant in today`s world ........it is time to throw out 4:34 out with 1:1 - think about it, what does alif laam meem mean ?........ if it is an iside joke between him, gabriel and the prophet, why do we keep on repeating it without knowing what the heck it is all about? ...... weird, if you ask me ..............

............ so if i fault you for anything, i fault you for suggesting that somehow we can can gather a few bearded ones around a plate of halwa and update the koran through ijthehad.........not possible ......... now, i am not suggesting we should quit calling ourselves muslims and stop celebrating basant, eid and shab-i-baraat ......... on the contrary, i am suggesting we should fly more kites, let off more firecrackers and sacrifice more sheep............but we should stop taking the koran seriously ............ we should wrap it up in velvet and put it up on the mantle and blow kisses at it every time we leave the house ............ we should revere the book but we don`t have to make a fool out of ourselves by actually trying to follow it ................

Mantolives #111 In response to your question, kindly re-read last line of my post #103. The thing I am defending is the right of the left side (the rational side) of your brain to be used.

Quranic Verse 2:282

``Let his guardian dictate faithfully, and get two witnesses,
out of your own men, and if there are not two men, then a man and two women,
such as ye choose, for witnesses, so that if one of them errs, the other can
remind her``

This is law of evidence in Islamic Law...

Will tahmed and other defenders of the faith please explain the universality of this verse?

-Manto

PS

What is required is an `Ijmah-ul-Ummah` to declare 4:34 and the Verse in Surah Baqarah which establishes women as half of the man to null and void for our times...

Unless that is done... we will continue to go around in circles.

-Manto

Bina Shah,

We are not the ones fighting against womens` rights... quite the contrary we are arguing for complete equality of women ... We are just saying that harping back to the Quran isn`t going to help women in anyway... I am quite familiar with the feminist interpretations, especially that of Fatima Mernissi... the fact of the matter is however, that it remains simply a desire, kash kay aisa hota. The fact is that 4:34 explicitly talks of the right of men to beat the women...

Muslims have to face the demons and the skeletons if they have to embrace the modern world... a new non-literal understanding the Quran with its proper place in history and advancement of civilization is required... perhaps it is time we started asking the questions as to why Quran wasn`t compiled until the rule of Umar the second caliph, and why was only one version retained under Osman, and all other versions destroyed.

-Manto

I do apologize... I meant Riffat Hassan. Not Riffat Hussein.

For those of you who are interested in the debate on 4:34 I suggest you turn to those who have more knowledge of Islam than yourselves (said very tongue in cheek) and look up not the traditional but the feminist interpretations of Quran by world renowned scholars including Amina Wadud and Riffat Hussain. They have some very interesting takes on the wording of 4:34 including the idea that the verse that outlines men`s superiority to women (supposed) is actually talking about the fact that God has bestowed economic wealth to men more than to women, as opposed to mental or physical superiority. Etc. etc. etc.

Go on, I dare any of you to actually read some of this stuff and report back here on what you`ve learned.

tahmed,

What is being attributed to you is the blind following of the Quran... that is not even the point... what I am trying to tell you is to `live and let live`...

I am not entirely sure as to what you are trying to accomplish by childishly repeating again and again that you didn`t read my posts? I know that ... I am well aware that my posts were beyond you given your simplistic `Quran is for all times and is Universal argument and is liberal and progressive and has all the science contained in it` understanding.


Hamidm,

I find it amazing but not surprising that you chose my `time specific` statement to criticize ... when your buddy tahmed is the one who is claiming that Quran and its message is completely egalitarian, progressive, liberal, and modernist in its spirit... that nothing in the Quran stops women from getting equal rights, and nothing in the Quran allows men to beat their wives... I am afraid `time specific` is the best I can do to explain my position vis a vis the Quran given my current presence in Pakistan and the existence of draconian laws contained in Pakistan Penal Code 295 A, B, C... but I hope you would stretch the limits of what I mean when I say it is time specific...

Tahmed is making tall claims about the Quran which just can`t be proved by the good book. But I still get chosen for your ire ...

-Manto

Mantolives #99 I have good news. I actually read this post (unlike some of your previous posts). I see you continue to attribute things to me (e.g. when you indicate that I condone male domination over women, and on the question of time-specificity, when I said the opposite in my earlier post on this issue) without taking the trouble of indicating where I wrote these conclusions.

Try to meet certain basic standards of logic and accuracy if you wish to discuss anything with me.

Naqshbandi #96 From a Man Eater`s point of view, a Chicken Eater or a Veggie Eater is a savage. Similarly, from a Man Worshipper`s point of view, a God Worshipper is a kafir. This is the Law of Communal Relativity. You just illustrated this Law in your post. Congratulations.

Give my regards to your Al-Hazrat Dead Arab Men. Dont spend all night praying in the graveyard though.

....... ``I believe most of the Quran was time specific``

..........so now this is the line used by apologists and revisionists to explain the silliness in god`s infallible word which was supposed to be good for all times..........what a dishonest cop out!............ does this mean we can discard most of what is contained in the book and instead use common horse sense to live our lives? ....... fine with me, but i still don`t understand it ...... are we saying that god was not thinking ahead when he gave permission to the seventh century bedouin to beat his wife if she got out of line and intended to revise his decision for the modern woman............ how can that be, and what kind of god would allow a poor women to be beaten just because that was the norm of the day? .......... and why can`t we interpret his will to justify honor killings and occasional wife beatings today?.........exactly when did the rules change?............. it just doesn`t add up, does it? .................

............ and who decides what was time specific and what was not?........ what about drinking, a subject so near and dear to my heart? ......... now that we have invented liquor that won`t make you go blind and we even have the atkins approved low carb beer that won`t make you fat, can we drink in ``moderation`` as long as we have a designated driver?......... if not, why not?.......... and what about riba as long as it is not two percentage points over the prime rate?............and since we have invented chairs why can`t we sit up like civilized people and pray without unnecessarily torturing our ankles?............ you see how silly this sounds?................

.........folks who say this kind of stuff are trying to find wriggle room where none exists and in the process make complete fools out of themselves ............... i actually have a lot more respect for people like naqshbandi who do not disguise their irrational faith with ridiculous logic............

Manto,

``I believe most of the Quran was time specific``

Only if the majority of Muslims could come to grip with that...what a wonderful the world of Islam would be...

That `is` in the last line should be substituted with `are`

PS:

Tolerance, real tolerance that is (not in razzz royal fashion) , demands of us that all three of us, Tahmed, Naqsh, and myself be allowed to live according to our own belief systems without any harassment.

Is tahmed and Naqshbandi willing to give me that much?

tahmed,

1) Can you conceive of a position within the circle of Islam where a person might believe in God, associate with Islam and claim himself to be a Muslim but not believe in the Dogma? If you can conceive of such a position then I am a Muslim... if you can`t, then in your eyes I am an agnostic or whatever.

2) 4:34 is part of the Quran... I choose to think of it as time specific... I think it is absolutely unacceptable to conceive of male domination over women... I also don`t believe in half witness of a woman also part of the Quran by the way. I believe most of the Quran was time specific, and Islam was largely through the master signifier ie Prophet Muhammad. I think there was a Good reason why a farsighted and brilliant leader and statesman like Muhammad didn`t order the compilation of the Quran.

You on the other hand keep harping back to the Quran without anything solid from the good book to prove your assertions... the difference between you and me is essentially that of an apologist and a Historian. You continue to explain and glorify Islam.... I investigate its moral social cultural and political antecedents..

We will leave it to the people of Chowk to decide which is the better option.

Naqsh #96

`` Therefore his belief is NOT `puritanical` but pure kufr--IF he actually rejects ALL hadith. If not ALL then it is still deviancy and heresy. ``

I can bet that both you and tahmed are twins... you have identical positions... You both denigrate other people and you both self righteously consider yourselves to be the best Muslims...

What I shudder to ask, you think of the Perwaizi Tolu-e-Islam school of thought?

sattar2 #72 I had responded to your post, but for some reason it did not get posted.

What I had written was this: The way I see it, the real distinction we should make between people is with respect to their adherence, or lack thereof, to certain universal values (these being neatly encapsulated in the phrase ``Do unto others as you would have them do unto you``, and more elegantly in Kant`s Categorical Imperitive which says basically the same thing). More specifically, these values include things like treating all individuals as equals regardless of wealth, power, race, religion, gender; being honest; living up to one`s word; and so forth.

The Quran is only one source of such universal values. Such values are taught in good kindergarten schools; they are provided in other religious books (the Bible etc.); they are provided by great writers in various forms (short stories, novels, poetry, essays); they are provided by good people through example; and so on. Thus, being a muslim (in the sense of following the Quran) is not such a big deal since one can pick up these values from other sources. But, it does seem logical to me that if anyone explicitly considers the Quran to be something other than a source of such universal values (e.g. if someone seriously thinks that the Quran is the reason that causes men to become suicide bombers, or spouse abusers, and so on), then to be consistent he should disassociate himself from Islam. If I honestly believed that the Quran called for me to beat my wife, I would simply reject the Quran (and Islam with it). However, as I explained earlier, that is not the case. That is all I was trying to explain to YLH: unless he plans to beat his bride up, he should reject the Quran as a source of values and declare himself an agnostic or something.

The reason I refer to the Quran is because so many Pakistanis look towards Islam for their values, and Islam having been hijacked by mullahs. This hijacking has been done by replacing the Quran with shariah, sunnah to promote values that are the opposite of such universal values. If I was discussing values with an agnostic, I would not refer to the Quran but to common sense for example.

Hope this clarifies somewhat what I am saying. Anyway, I think I have spent way too much time trying to discuss religion on chowk and dont plan to engage in discussions again.

manto sahib--i am not claiming a `monopoly` on islam unless you understand my belief --which i wholeheartedly adhere to and am proud of--that ``the only Muslims on the correct path are those of the Ahlus Sunnah w`al Jama`ah as we are the only ones who understand Islam exactly as it was understood and explained by Allah`s Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam. All other Muslim groups--all 72 of them--are deviants and misguided Muslims and on manifest error``. But then again about 90% of the world`s Muslims are Ahlus Sunnah w`al Jama`ah so it is a pretty inclusive group and has always been in the majority throughout islamic history.

Ahlus Sunnah today comprises those who are on the aqida of Imam Abu Mansur al Maturidi and Imam Abu Hassan al Ash`ari and who adhere to one of the 4 Imams of Fiqh.

***
As for people like tahmed who reject hadith in toto and only rely on the Qur`an--that is understood to take one outside the pale of Islam according to ALL traditional scholars from the Prophet`s time up to now. Therefore his belief is NOT `puritanical` but pure kufr--IF he actually rejects ALL hadith. If not ALL then it is still deviancy and heresy.
***
And I am not going to apologise for this belief. Ever.

And while we are on the topic of courtesans, has anyone read the wonderful story by Ghulam Abbas called `Anandi`... Maybe temporal?

-Manto

hamidm,

Point taken about man-worship of Phajja... you phajja worshipper YOU! Will dispute as to who is spanking who... we will let the chowk people decide...

However I think tahmed`s dogmatic adherence to the puritan iconoclastic Ghaznavi-type Sunni Islam and the contradiction it poses vis a vis his desire to fashion himself as a liberal has been brought out in the open for all to see...

-Manto

Hamidm,

Phajja`s popularity is because of the women`s quarter. I have nothing to hide. I am a frequent visitor to that part of Lahore, not for reasons one might assume however. Besides Yusuf Sali`s haveli is there, and so the best parties in that part of lahore... However next time you are in Lahore compare the paye at Beadon road with Phajja`s and you will realize that Phajja doesn`t even come close to the finery of the Paye at Beadon road.

Phajja is a dishonest crook who mixes `Bong` with Paye to thicken the soup, which actually makes it worse not better... It is sick. This goes to show that I am not like other `I know lahori culture types`... I know the real Lahore, beyond Phajjas and Heera Mandi.



Godot...

Thankyou for that post. If only tahmed could read this. Obviously he won`t because he is blinded by his faith. Besides I doubt that he has it in him to question his beliefs... he is just interested in running down others on this board.


tahmed,

Nothing in your post can be by any stretch of imagination thought off as a legitimate answer to my question. It is the Holy Quran which says : `and beat them`... How do you justify that ? That is all I am asking... No need to get all convoluted and insulting ok? I don`t care what Karen Armstrong says... Are you worshipping her now? Give me a simple answer... Do you beat your wife as a believer or not? You can claim that you believe in the message and not the messenger... would it make it better if I said I respect the message of the Greywolves... and not the personalities... Just like you don`t believe me, I don`t believe you... using the same standards you use to claim that I worship the Greywolves, I think you worship Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) ... especially given the apologia you posted...

Here are direct questions:

1) Is 4:34 not part of the Quran, the message you so fervently and blindly believe in?

2) How is your worship of Muhammad (PBUH) better than my alleged worship of the `Greywolves` ?

3) What are your views on Hindus? Since they worship the Avtars who appeared in human form are they all bad people lower in form than you?

4) How about the shiites? They `worship` Hassan and Hussain, and their father ali... ? They must be really stupid in your view?


By the way Grey, as in Greywolf is spelt `G R E Y`... the other Gray is a name. Besides I doubt that any Greywolf or Suleiman the Magnificent, whose ideas and achievements for that matter requires your patronization, whereas that Khansama might...


Naqshbandi,

I take strong exception to your monopolizing of Islam. Tahmed infact seems to have a more puritan idea of Islam than you... so accusing westernization is hardly fair.


Rsaxena,

I am in total agreement.

-Manto

ferozk
…pls. pass on my regards to the family…yes, why not take all interested chowkies for a tour of (saadat hasan) minto’s home?...yasser, sobia, semipreciousme and others?

sattar2
…after you said it…now it is final…sunnis, shias, barelvis and deobandis, qadianis and lahoris… all are unanimous in acknowledging the demerits of bad poetry!…this is indeed very inspirational;)

manto,

.........you have either led a very protected life or are afraid that aba jan or ami ji might be reading your posts .................

............``my favorite place for Paye is still Beadon road``........ beadon road, indeed!............ we all know where you get the best paye in lahore .......... and if you haven`t been there then you have a lot of growing up to do and deserve the spanking you are getting from tahmed ............. tahmed, of course, will never admit that he has ever heard of phaja because there is no mention of him in the koran and would put it down to man worship............naqshbandi, on the other hand, probably shares a passion for hazrat data gunj buksh`s dargah and hazrat phaja`s paye with the the honorable ladies who bring so much joy to the people of lahore .................

QURAN 4:34

Re: Manto and Q4:34

Manto, with reference to Quran 4:34, please allow me...

First, the actual translation...

“Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God’s guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All-high, All-great.” (Q4:34)

The following is a commentary on that verse from Michael Cook, a scholar at Princeton University. It is his book “The Koran: A Very Short Introduction”, from which the following is quoted.

“[T]here was room for a variety of interpretaion of this verse in the traditional Islamic world. But two things are hard to deny: the verse endorses male dominance, and it sanctions it by according to the husband a right, among other things, to beat a rebellious wife. Male dominance was far from being a novelty in monotheist scripture. The God of Genesis tells the woman ‘thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee’ (Gen. 3:16); while the New Testament lays down that a woman should ‘learn in silence with all subjection’ (iTim. 2:11) – a counsel no longer much observed in modern secular education. Beating a wife, however, was new to scripture – though not, of course, to society...the main concern of the traditional commentators was to distinguish legitimate physical punishment from assult and battery; but what to them was common sense is to modern ears outrageous.

“Once the principle is established, all commentators are concerned to emphasize the limits to the husband’s right to beat his wife – limits which they find set out in traditional Muslim literature. They stress, for example, that exercising this right is a last resort. Maghniyya states with some exaggeration that all the traditional scholars agree that it is better not to beat one’s wife. Qutb in a strongly worded passage avers that there is no license in the verse for treating a woman like a chained dog; if Muslims have behaved in such a way, this represents the degradation of their customs, not the will of their God.

“[I]t is apparent that the modern commentators divide into two broad groups. Commentators in the first group tend to be strongly affected by the relevant Western value, and on occasion to bend their scripture to meet it. These are the Islamic modernists in the tradition of Muhammad Abduh. Commentators in the second group brace themselves against the pull of the Western value, and make a point of not bending scripture to accommodate it. These are the Islamic fundamentalists of recent decades. The first group has more of a tendency to swim with the Western tide, the second to go against it; but both groups are actually aware of it.

“We can also discern a significant change over time. Schematically, the traditional commentators are followed by the modernists, who in turn are followed by the fundamentalists. One implication of this is that the fundamentalists are twice removed from their traditional forebears. Moreover, the Western values they confront are not just current fads, but integral components of the world the human race is likely to live in for some time to come. These considerations suggest that the present strength of the fundamentalist interpretaion of scripture in the Islamic world may not represent a stable equilibrium.”

Further, to quote another passage from the above book, “[The] mixed signals may remind us of the language of the declaration on family life which was adopted by the Southern Baptists in 1998. A wife, according to the this document, is to ‘submit graciously’ to her husband’s authority. And yet this authority is referred to by the ambivalent phrase ‘servant leadership’, and in the next breath the wife is said to be ‘equal to’ her husband.”

It is by using my intelligence that allows me to understand that a scholar of islam is more qualified to derive rulings from the Book and the Sunnah than a layperson such as myself.

As for showing reverence and love to Allah`s Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam and by extension all those Believers connected to His Excellency in any way--eg his pure Ahlul Bayt and his Companions and the awliya--that IS the heart of this Faith of Islam: LOVE of the Messenger sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam. Allah says in the Qur`an, ``Say (O beloved Prophet, to mankind): If you love Allah, then follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins, and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (3:31)``

And Allah`s Habib sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam said to Hazrat Umar that a person`s iman is not complete until the Prophet is more beloved to him than anything else including that person`s own self!

**

The Prophet said “Verily, I fear about a man from you who will read the Quran so much that his face will become enlightened and he will come to personify Islam. This will continue until Allah desires. Then these things will be taken away from him when he will disregard them by putting them all behind him and will attack his neighbour with the sword accusing him of Shirk. The Prophet was asked - which of the two was commuting Shirk - the attacker or the attacked. The prophet replied - the attacker (the one accusing the other of Shirk). The classification of this Hadith is Jayyid. (Tafseer ibn Kathir; Vol. 2 p265, Amjid Academy, Lahore Pakistan)

***
With the grace of Allah, the aforementioned hadith proves that accusing the Ahl-e-Sunnah wal Jamaat of Shirk over every little matter is baseless. In the light of this hadith the judgement issued against us, rather than fitting us, returns back to the accusers and rests with them.
***

What is the difference between worship [ibaadat] and tazeem [reverence]?

worship is to display humility and respect for an entity whilst believing it to be **absolute and self existent``** this is only for Allah.

If humility is displayed for someone, if respect is shown for someone whilst considering him not absolute and self-existent - but rather as creation and non-absolute - then this humility is reverence and not worship.

No one, and not me, respects the Anbiya, awliya and ulama believing them to be absolute and self existent; rather they are created and non-absolute and therefore the love and respect i have for them and will insha Allah continue to have during my death pangs and after is just reverence and not worship.

***
tahmed, you are basically using this as a smokescreen. people like you want to change islam to suit your own deviant ideas--which are basically anything the kaafirs think as modern and progressive and scientific--and that is why you attack the ulama as they have preserved this Deen for us exactly as it was understood by Allah and His Habib sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam and that burns you.

Romair 56

``Happy Birthday to Pakistan....

Us Pakistanis would not be not be where we are today if it wasn`t for you....

And....should I say it?.......Happy Birthday In.....I cannot get it to roll off my lips.....let me try again.....Happy Birthday Ind.......

Ahhhh....Happy Birthday India......

Us Pakistanis would be way ahead of where we are today, if it wasn`t for you :-)``

Thanks.. but no thanks. We will make the cake (Hindus out of pig dung and muslims out of slaughtered cow`s .... to rub it more), and eat it. No need for whiners to join the party.

Let me ask you a question. And also give two answers. I know, you simply do not have one honest one.

Your army has already run over your nation right from its inception. Why was it required even to to run over cricket in your country by an army general?

Answer 1. You and your ilks are so insecure, anything that is was significant importance has to be owned by army. Lest they loose even slight advantage.

Answer 2. Your own Mushy (your saviour) and army, has to make some place for a general. You Army is bloated. Has to fit him, so that he is happy. Otherwise Mushy gets upended. Does not matter what your nation needs. Army must be happy. Every individual general must be happy. And you absolutely accept that as gospel (wrong religion?)

Do not reply. Invade and rape. Be happy.

(I am ready to accept all the wrongs in Indian cricket boards history by the way)

To all rest (Especially Mantolives and F.R. Khan)

BELATED ...Happy birthday India and Pakistan.


Wisdom is not at all near by. All we can do is hope for it. Someday, some where, it will be there (``Inshallaha`` am I right?. In my vocabulary it is ``tathastoo`` or ``so be it``).

Yogiraj Patil

Mantolives #77 The reason I dont want to start a discussion on religion is because I have already said enough times what I have to say on chowk over the past several months. Just one more time, let me clarify though so you dont think I am avoiding any discussion:

On Man Worshipping: I have always and consistently maintined that it is the MESSAGE conveyed in the message of Islam that are significant, NOT THE MESSENGER. That the prophet was an ordinary man whose role is strictly limited to that of the MESSENGER only in the Quran, and who is explicitly prohibited from seeking compliance with the message. The essence of Islam is the dignity of ALL individuals. By elevating one individual over others (even the prophet himself), you are lowering others. Thus, to me the poor khansama`s assistant who used to greet me every morning with ``sahab, chai banaa dooN?`` last couple of weeks when I was in Lahore is worthy of as much respect as for example as any government minister, or any business tycoon in Pakistan, or any of Naqshbandi`s hazrats, or any of your Gray Wolves, or Suleiman the Lawgiver (or the Magnificent, as he is known in the west) for that matter. Indeed much more than most such ``VIPs``, since he earns an honest living, and does not trample on the political rights of others.

On the MEssage: Coming now to the message, I I have always maintained that the MESSAGE of Islam is in the Quran only, not in the sunnah and shariah and so forth. AND that this message is about VALUES first and foremost. Since you refer to the verse that permits the beating of wives. Let me help you in your arguments and add that the Quran also accepts the practice of slavery. The point I have repeatedly made on Chowk on this question is this:

a. The Quran itself says it is the ``Arabic Quran`` meant for a community (the bedouins of 7th century Arabia) who are not literate in other languages in which the message has also been revealed.

b. In the context of that audience for which it was designed, the Quran was indeed revolutionary in promoting the rights of women, in discouraging slavery, in promoting egalitarianism among all individuals regardless of wealth, religion, race. Karen Armstrong says that the legal rights of women as indicated in the Quran were way ahead of anything in the west until well into the 19th century.

c. Therefore, logic would indicate that in the context of today`s world, that phrase about beating wives does not apply. The Quran has to be seen in the dynamic context of an ever-changing world, not in a static context that things the world came to a standstill 1400 years ago.

So, if someone beats his wife, the responsibility for those actions (and the punishment) lies with that individual. He cant say the Quran made him do it. Just as a suicide bomber, or someone who kills people worshipping in the wrong mosque, or someone who kills hindu villagers in kashmir, cannot say the Quran made him do it. Only extremists (both Islamic extremists on the one hand and - ironically - the Hindu extremists and Christian extremists) transfer responsibility for such crime from the criminals to the religion.

I think I have beaten this horse to death by now. Please spare me further discussions, and please stop attributing things to me that are the opposite of what I write.

dost mittar #82 Canadians were always reputed to be polite people (even the theives say ``Excuse me ma`am, but may I take your purse?``). It is in new york (who were reputed to curse in a thousand different languages) where the civil behavior (only 4 robberies that night in an area of ten million!, and vendors giving out ice cream and jogging shoes!! and tourists sleeping on the streets without getting attacked!!) was incredible (particularly after the lootings of 1977 it was I think).

re: manto

{My point is my dear friend that when you accuse others of `worshipping` men (which in my case is not factual), you also are opening yourself up to the same attacks. Now I have shown you that from a Modern liberal perspective even Islam is not considered the bundle of rationality that you make it out to be. }

...no religion is fully rational...but there will always be people like tahmed who cannot accept that reality because it is their only frame of reference in life and without it they would be lost...this is true of hinduism, islam, christianity, judaism - any mainstream religion you can think of...

T-Bhai,

Thanks for a reminder of why we love Chowk so much...

Chowk Rocks!

My humble suggestion for the editors, interactors, and writers at Chowk is that we consider it a ``Contact Zone``- a Composition Theory concept that uses writing as a way to document, transmit and communicate about issues of Partition, diaspora, nuclear proliferation, gender, class, etc.

``definition:
Mary Louise Pratt defines ``contact zones`` as ``social spaces where cultures meet, clash, and grapple with each other, often in contexts of highly asymmetrical relations of power, such as colonialism, slavery, or their aftermaths as they are lived out in many parts of the world today.``Pratt began to use the term ``contact zones`` to refer to ``the space of colonial encounters,`` as when Columbus landed in America...``

Banjaara:
The politeness in Ottawa was overwhelming. Not many intersections were manned by cops and had become 4-way stop signs. Despite long lawns, everyone stopped at chowks and did the Canadian version of `pehlay aap`.

Thank you, mantolives and others, for remembering us when the Lights went out. Well, things were not too bad here. We lost power at 4pm and got it back at 5am. No ac, of course, so enjoyed sleeping in the basement. I just had put in new grass on my lawn and now the city wants us not to use too much water. And as per Murphy`s Law, it is hot this week and nary a cloud in sight. Found out what cold food tastes like.
The stores closed, not only because the power went out but because the cash clerks do not know how to accept money without the help of the computerised cash register. Misplaced cigarette lighter after the last birthday candle lighting and had to go out to procure a match to light a candle. So many fires last night because people do not know how to handle candles safely.

We truly are a slave of electricity!