Pakistan and Israel: Through the prism of realities

During Janata Govt., Indian foreign policy slightly shifted towards USA and Israel. During that period, Israel offerred to destroy Pakistani neuclear facility, if India supports. Mr. Morarjee Desai refused the proposal. Pakistan has honoured him with the highest Nishan-e-Pakistan due to his favour twards Pakistan. He is the only prime minister, who have own all the awards.

#156
A very good joke:-))

A very good joke:-))

``Even Pakistan`s missile superiority over India is on the verge of collapse with Israel`s anti-missile defence system, Arrow II, coming to India.``

I loved this one!! To all the Pakistani `analysts` who grace Chowk, the joke goes like this:

After the test of Ghauri missile, representatives from Afghanistan and Japan registered their complaints

Japanese - Why the hell are they retesting North-American Nodong missiles, does renaming change anything

Afghan- Hell!! The morons are now after our land, why else would they name these missiles after our places - Ghauri, Ghazni, give me a break!!

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re: Romair

Thanks for the information. As to my cousin, I am not sure, because I have no wish to know, what he has done with his life.

Ciao

FerozeK #152: ``They are not the ubermensch you are making them out to be!``

The discussion was only about Service Academy graduates, not about the whole military. That is why I stated, `` They only constitue a small percentage of the whole officer corps though, since most of the officers in the USA come through ROTC, etc.``

The, ``men`` (non-officers) you are talking about, do not come from the Service Academies. They do not require a BS degree. The Service Acadmies, on average, graduate about a thousand officers per academy per year (it has gone down now, below this figure, but will go back up higher than this figure again). This is actually a small percentage of even the whole US officer corps. Most of them come from ROTC and OTS type places. And these could be from any normal university. And will have the above average and below average individuals.

By the time the Service Academy grads retire (lets take the average of ten years of service and an age of 32), they have the following profile:

- BS degree from Academy
- MS/MA degree from a good civilian university (Purdue, Harvard, Univ. of Colorado etc.)
- 10 years of overall management, command and leadership experience
- 5 years or more experience as a fighter pilot, or special forces commando, or naval engineer etc.
- Maybe some combat experience also
- 2 to 3 years of teaching experience at some military institution
- 2 to 3 years of experience abroad in places like Germany, Korea, Saudi Arabia etc.
etc. etc.
- 1 or 2 years of administration experience in places like the Pentagon, Space Command etc.

That is quite a resume, for an average retiree, if you ask me. Very few civilians would be able to match it. All my friends in the USA, who are Service Academy grads (I primarily know the ones in the Air Force) are moving very fast in the civilian world.

Did you cousin in the Marines attend the Naval Academy?

re: Romair

Granted that the American military officer corps is highly educated, but still does not answer the questions about the rest of the military. You cannot generalize the educated nature of the American military by judging its officer corps. The average soldier in the American military is a high school graduate, who joined the army because of an attractive salary-education package and the prospects of a secure employment. S/he did not join to go and fight wars. Historically, the people serving in the American military and who do the dying come from the lowest economic statras of the American society; Irish in the Civil War to blacks in Vietnam and Hispanics in the Gulf War.

Secondly, given the force structures and the table of organizations for the American military, it is weighted towards the reserves and its core strenght is only limited to about 35 odd combat brigades. The reserves are a cross-section of America and in even that, you have to make a distinction between the officer corps and the general ranks, because the qualitive barometer of education and qualifications is assymetrical.

As to re-employment in the civilian job market, that has more to do their ``in house`` contacts and this principle is only applicable to the officer corps and limited to ``white collar`` jobs in the military related industries. I have friends in the American military, including a cousin in the Marine Corps and I can tell you that they are not well informed about geo-politics or international relations and are more of the CNN and Fox types as far as their international situational awareness is concerned. They are not the ubermensch you are making them out to be!

Ciao

fuzair #150: I think one needs to look at the combined SAT/high school GPA/extra curricular etc. One good indication is how selective the universities are.

You may have met some of the US Academy grads. I have also met some and some are my close friends, including one who shot down planes in Kosovo (if I remeber correctly). They are truly an impressive lot. More so than my friends from Harvard/Stanford etc. Infact many of these guys have combined academy and Ivy League degrees.

I have found very few people who have the combined skills of academics, leadership, physical fitness, discipline etc. I have met a whole slew of people who have high SAT scores. They are a dime a dozen. Getting a high SAT score isn`t really too hard. It is probably the easiest part. But having the whole package and a recommendation from a Congressman takes a lot of doing. I wouldn`t be surprised if many of the high SAT scorers who apply to these academies get rejected on physical fitness tests. There physical requirements are very high. Quite a bit higher than Pakistan`s academies. And they look a a lot at high school leadership activities.And a 1250 average isn`t exactly low. Neither is a 3.80 high school GPA average. And since they are free, everyone can apply. As opposed to the private universities, where applicants are limited due to financial situations.

Believe me, they are the cream of the crop. Do a survey on how quickly they get employed in the civilian areas, when they leave the military. They only constitue a small percentage of the whole officer corps though, since most of the officers in the USA come through ROTC, etc.

Romair,

The service academies cannot begin to compare with the raw material (at least in terms of SAT scores) that the Ivy Leagues and Stanford gets. The average SAT score at West Point is 1200 (lowest of the academies) and the highest is at Annapolis (1250). Harvard`s 25-75 percentile range is 1400-1580! And the other schools aren`t far behind. One can quibble over what exactly the SAT measures but it is still the best predictor (note: I didn`t say good predictor, just the best one out there) of college GPA. For every 100 point rise in the applicant`s SAT, final college academic performance rose by 0.17 GPA points. Yes, thats not exactly a great ``predictor`` but nothing else--ethnicity, HS GPA, family income, gender, number of AP courses taken, etc--was as good.

So, you are correct that the service academies demand a lot more of their students than do the Ivies but, as far as academic ability is concerned, the service academies get the leftovers. Would I rather trust a West Point grad or a Harvard grad to do the right thing? A West Pointer of course! S/He has already demonstrated that s/he is willing to put duty above self, at least for a few years!

So, $50K/year is not too shabby for under-30s who aren`t exactly the cream of the crop.

fuzair #148: ``Not too shabby given the pretty low SAT scores of the Service Academies. These aren`t exactly Harvard-Stanford level students we are talking about here!``

This part I would have to disagree with you on. The US Service academies have one of the highest academic standards in the USA. Their SAT scores are not at the Harvard level, but they are in the high ranges. Their overall selectivity rates are extremely extremely high. One of my Pakistani friends attended the US Air Force academy. During his year of accpetance, the USAF Academy had the highest entrance criteria in the USA of any college. Harvard was at second place. US cadets have to get recommended by the Congressman of his state. The Congressman actually interviews the final candidates and then picks one. Some are recommended by the Defence Secretary. And some even by the President.

The average acceptance GPA for US Air Force Academy is 3.80. And it is ranked by Petersons in the category of most difficult entrance level, accepting only 17% of the applicants. Stanford has an average High School GPA of 3.90, and accepted 13% last year. Harvard and Yale are around 13% also. In addition to GPA, the service academies require a lot of physical and leadership stuff that Ivy league schools don`t require.

I have met some of the USAF academy grads. They are very sharp. Very intelligent. And as academically oriented as any Ivy League grad. In fact many go on to get Ivy League degrees. And they have more leadership skills. They are in very high demand in the civilian sector.

Romair,

Actually, US military salaries aren`t so bad. A LT with 5 years service about to leave the Army (i.e., hes about 26-28 years old) would be pulling down about $50K per year (including basic housing allowance and subsistence allowance). He would be getting much more if he was posted to Iraq ($250 per month), or was a pilot ($206 per month), or married with kids ($147.30 extra for housing allowance). For time spent in actual combat, as opposed to just being in Iraq or Afghanistan or Pakistan he would get an extra $228 per month. Normal sea duty gets you another $200 or so per month for an Ensign j.g..

Not too shabby given the pretty low SAT scores of the Service Academies. These aren`t exactly Harvard-Stanford level students we are talking about here!

subroto #139 partially? i thought mushy had an ancestral home in delhi. and that some old men in the neigborhood still recall that little brat running around the delhi gallis...

btw, talking of ancestral homes, by elder brother and his wife visited our ancestral home in east panjab a couple of weeks ago (the first time anyone from our family visited that place after their hasty departure back in 1947!!). the sikh family living in our ancestral now was a bit concerned at first (worried that they had come to reclaim the house), but warmed up and became very hospitable once they realized that my brother was there simply to visit the place he had heard so much about from our late parents...i am still waiting to hear more full details of the visit from my brother...so i guess, i too can claim to be a jallundari even though i never saw the place!!

Oh God ... the Air Marshal Counterfeit coin is planning an American Attack on mainland China...

fuzair #142: I would agree with your assessment that the US has some structurual problems, in its military. I am not quite sure what the extent of the problems is. My only exposure to the US military is through some friends I made, during a course I attended. We have kept in touch, and whatever they have discussed is whatever I know. They are all officers and all majors, at the moment. And, as you mentioned, quite a few have left the military. Though the US govt. seems to be making serious efforts, now, in increasing their salaries.

It seems like the big problem the US military is having, at the officer level, is that they are too talented for the salaries they get. All of the officers have a four year Bachelors degree, at least. And many have MS and quite a few Ph.Ds. also. And many are qualified pilots etc., alongwith the degrees. This is different from the Pakistani military, where only a small portion has four year college degrees. The majority only has two year B.Sc or BA degrees.

I read somewhere that 40% of the current soldiers (not the officers) in Iraq are green card holders, who got into the service to get a US citizenship. I don`t know whether that is true. It is hard to get a real evaluation of the US soldiers` personal fighting ability, since they go in with so much firepower, that the soldiers individual skills are rarely tested, nowdays.

On the whole, I have been quite impressed with all the US officers I know and have met. They are good guys. Good friends. In excellent physical condition. Highly educated. With a good sense of right and wrong. And with more exposure to the rest of the world, due to foreign assignments, than civilian Americans.

Though, this generation has never been tested in the face-to-face combat, with enemies of equal power, like the previous generation had been tested during WWII and even Vietnam (if one counts guirella warfare). So, who knows how they would do in an attack on China.

PS: Its not a crime to make mistakes like that... it is the arrogance and self confidence with which the air marshal makes his claims that bothers me... whether in this issue... his monologues against secularism, or just plain old lies...