Pakistan and Israel: Through the prism of realities

SameerJB #45: ``No matter what Pakistan does, neither USA nor Israel is going to support Pakistan vis-a-vis India``

Are you suggesting that Pakistan should not recognize Israel?

The question is not to gain any advantage vis-a-vis anyone. Even if Israel remains a Pakistani enemy, it makes no sense to not recognize it. If Pakistan can recognize India, then why not Israel?

Recognition of Israel will not make it an ally. But I am sure it will get Israel off Pakistan`s back. Israel is not going to pick a fight with another country (Pakistan), just to please India. It has enough fights on its hands, and is currently one of the most threatened countries in the world. It may pick a fight with Pakistan, however, if it feels Pakistan is a threat to it, since it does not recognize it.

``Pakistani military is not going to allow making Kashmir secondary or minor issue between two countries.``

I think you are greatly misleading the issue, or only looking at one side of it. Not only the Pakistani military, but every single Pakistani political party considers Kashmir a main issue, between India and Pakistan. None of the them will reduce it to a minor issue. The reason is that an overwhelming number of Pakistanis consider it a main issue. According to the following poll by Outlook India:

``The poll was conducted on 3-4 August, 2003 and almost half those polled were women. The sample represented a cross-section of income groups and education segments across the four provinces of Pakistan,......

given how some lobbies in Pakistan claim that Kashmir is not an important issue with most Pakistanis. 79 percent of those polled felt that it was necessary to resolve Kashmir first in order to establish peaceful relations between Pakistan and India, and only 29 percent agreed with the idea of accepting the conversion of the LOC into an international border. 69 percent did not agree to this suggestion, and only 2 percent fell into the ``Don’t Know`` category on this question. Interestingly, 43 percent felt that since August 2003, in the wake of the new moves for Pakistan-India dialogue, bilateral negotiations were the most suitable way to resolving the Kashmir dispute. 26 percent still felt that UN negotiations were the best way, while only 12 percent saw US mediation as the most suitable option and 17 percent saw war as the most suitable way.`` (http://www.jang.com.pk/thenews/aug2003-daily/27-08-2003/oped/o3.htm)

This would indicate that Pakistanis do not want war with India, but they do consider Kashmir a main issue. One can debate whether Kashmir shoud or should not be a main issue. But one cannot portray it to be only an issue supported by the military. It is supported by 79% of Pakistanis, as the main issue.

tahmad #44: You have a tendency to personally attack others. This is unfortunate.

I stand by my point. I think Israel can cause far more damage to Pakistan, than India. Primarily, due to the pro-Israeli lobby in the USA. This is a fact. In the world stage, I would say Israel carries more influence than India does (or Pakistan does). This is also why I think Pakistan needs to recognize Israel and get it off its back.

We could debate this furthur, if you like. Kindly do not indulge in personal insults, however.

Your comments about the military are interesting. It is more a sign of your arrogance, than anything else. You tend to consider one group inferior to others. Your father was in the Army (or associated with it), if I remember you commenting correctly. I assume you talked to him in the same manner, and with the same dirty mouth. Did you attempt to insult him also? Or do you save your insults for non-family members?

So far, you have abused Palestianns and Israelis to hell (#43 ``Screw both the Palestinians and the Israelis``). You have openly supported the bombings of innocent Iraqis, for no reason. Is there any other group you racistly oppose? For some reason, you also simultaneously have attempted to be the policeman on this site. This is exactly why I always oppose people who attempt to become self-appointed policemen. They do nothing but attempt to insult others, while trying to put themselves above the law.

You have a very high opinion of yourself. Too high, if you ask me......

Anyways, if you want to debate this like a human being. Let`s do so. Otherwise, kindly do not mention me in your posts. I have no time for your racist self-absorbed comments.......

I pretty much agree with SyedAhmed`s assessment of the situation. Recognition of Israel alone is meaningless for Pakistan without ideological and structural changes in Pakistan`s foreign policy. No matter what Pakistan does, neither USA nor Israel is going to support Pakistan vis-a-vis India and Pakistani military is not going to allow making Kashmir secondary or minor issue between two countries. The drag of Kashmir, Hindu fundamentalism there and Islamic fundamentalism here are going to keep dominating the discourse with any perceived benefits of Israel recognition disappearing in matter of days.

Screw both the Palestinians and the Israelis: in 1946 there were 1 million palestinians (including west bank and gaza) and slightly less jews. The jews had been settling in these parts for 70 years, through purchase of land from palestinian absentee landlords who were only too happy to get rid of the land and their ``palestinian brothers`` who were tilling their soil. So much for the ``palestinian brothers`` bs - it was the rich palestinians who sold out the poor palestinians. Just like it is the rich Pakistanis who are screwing the poor Pakistanis, not Indians or israelis or anyone else.

Romair #41 you write ``1.1 billion Indians are less scary than 4.2 million Israelis...Hence, Pakistan should recognize Israel, to get it off its back.``

Your brilliant insights do credit to your PMA training. Yup! I can imagine those 4.2 million yarmulka wearing hordes goose-stepping down the Mall in Rawalpindi. I can see the flag of David fluttering over Lahore fort. I imagine these scenes, and my hair stands at end and my teeth start to chatter with great fear.

Now that I think of it, the 4.2 million israelis may even force us to eat rye bread (actually that wont be too bad, my doctor tells me - good source of fibre). But then, Pakistani women can whine just as well as jewish women, and the men are all circumcised already. So maybe they`ll go easy on us.

What do you say, eh (I assume you have picked up this canadian lingo by now) General?

now if the Hindutva fascist are copulating in public with the Zionist fascists -- it is understandable the Tantalizing Erotica would arouse -- the easily arousable -- Islamists fascists to mate with their own kind....

by all means recognize Israel`s Sharon -- I am sure Sharon yearns to be recognized by Pakistan --

and btw -- DO send 20 thousand valiant Pakistani soldiers -- along with the 17 thousands Advani`s Jawans -- to serve as Bush`s Dobermen in Iraq --

the JOB should come naturally to the two armies..

after all originally -- the two Colonial armies were genentically bred to serve and obey only their Colonial Masters....

shankar #: The Indian media machine is now on full blast at Chowk. Everyone is in one line, criticising Pakistan, for problems in India. Doesn`t matter if they belong to BJP or Congress. I love it when this happens. It is quite funny :-) India, a country seven times the size of Pakistan, needs to unite with tiny little Israel, to take on Pakistan. I take this as a compliment.

India is definitely going in the wrong direction, if its heroes are Sharon and Advani. I wonder what Gandhi would have thought of Sharon........I think you know the answer.......I think Gandhi will be rolling in his grave, when he sees Vajpayee and Advani and Sharon walking side by side, with full military honors, leading their respective countries, saluting the Indian flag. I don`t think this is the India, he envisioned. He will roll furthur, when he sees otherwise mild-mannered expatriate psychiatrists supporting this.

I don`t think India can do much to Pakistan. However, I do think tiny little Israel can do a lot to Pakistan. 1.1 billion Indians are less scary than 4.2 million Israelis. The comments on this board from our Indian friends seem to prove that. Hence, Pakistan should recognize Israel, to get it off its back. It desparately wants Pakistan to recognize it, also. At least that is what it`s leaderse keep saying.

At the same time, Pakistan should not go overboard and start inviting people like Sharon to Pakistan. He is internationally recognized as a human rights violater. The only reason the Americans invite him is because of Jewish influence in the USA. Americans would much rather work with other Israeli leaders, who don`t have so much blood on their hands.

It is true that Gandhi has died in India. But rest assured Jinnah is still alive and well in Pakistan. Everyone supports Jinnah. And this includes Naqshbandi. Just ask him. People may debate Jinnah`s secular or religious motivations, but everyone likes the guy. There is no way in hell, his assassins (if he had been assassinated) would ever get elected in Pakistan.

A piece of useful advice: forget about Pakistan (or Israel). Worry more about your own Muslim citizen. They are the ones you need bo befriend, even if you have to alienate Israel.........Even if Israel gives India ten billion dollars as aid, inviting Sharon is still not worth the alienation of Indian Muslims within the boundaries of India.

Jinnah was a good man, and Pakistanis still respect him as one. His secularness or lack of it, is immaterial as far as I am concerned. And as far as most Pakistanis are concerned, other than a few Pakistanis who seem obsessed with it. Gandhi was a good man also. Unfortunately, his ideals do not bring in any votes, any longer. Indians are more interested in Sharon than in Gandhi.

If the Sapah-e-Sahaba (Pakistan`s equivalent of BJP) was running Pakistan, and invited Sharon to salute the Pakistani flag, Jinnah would also roll in his grave. But that stage hasn`t reached yet, in Pakistan.

Seems like Pakistanis have finally acknowledged the ``elephant in the room``. This bs called ``unity in the ummah`` is just that

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pure cockanbull. Its amazing how Pakistani diplomats have fawned & oiled themselves to try to get into the good graces of Arabs. What the heck has this brown nosing gotten her...vis a vis India?

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ZILCH!!

None other than Sharon himself will be coming for a state visit to sign a billion dollar deal with India. Which frikking Arab state--or an ``Islamic`` country has denounced this? Has ANY Palestinian organisation; including the world famous Hamas, protested vociferously?!

Every single Pakistani leader in history has made legendary ``pilgrimages`` to their bada sahibs--the Saudis. Every Pakistani PM/President/Field Marshall/Chief Executive goes to rich Arab states & comes back home with his nose ten shades browner than his face & his tin can jingling with dinars.

Yup! And when these same Arabs come to India, they give the BJP a wink & a nod...& its business as usual. NOT A SINGLE Pakistani leader has the GUTS to publicly acknowlegde this! Mushy is no exception...not by a long shot! Same bs...different leader

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thats all!

Whether Pakistan recognises Israel or not will not significantly change the growing Indo-Israeli alliance. Large part of that is cos Israel (like any other country) needs money. Israelis have used their US aid well & have built sound institutions in their country

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far far better than any frikking Arab civilisation. The average Israeli ``identifies`` with the threat of ``terrorism`` in India. I dont think they look at Kashmiri mujahadeen as ``freedom fighters``! I dont think ANY Jew

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Israeli or American outrightly supports Pakistani stand on Kashmir.

So, why in the world does Pakistani leadership think recognising Israel will ``counterbalance`` this evovling strategic reshuffling? Its kinda like Mushy making the ``historic`` visit to Russia.

ylh,

No matter how much you yearn for Jinnah`s ideology to return to Pakistan, please accept a harsh truth....Jinnah is as much an anachronism to the Islamic Republic of Pakistan; as Gandhi is to the Secular Republic of India..

For every single well meaning guy like you that goes back to Pakistan; there are 3 like nasbandhi that return as well. And real muslims like him will probably have 16 kids minimum...Allah is very generous to real muslims.

You yourself had mentioned that in the 5 yr abscence that the average Pakistani has swung to either side

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very conservative or very liberal (I mean, secular Jinnahist). Seems to me the conservatives have an increasing dominant discourse. Their voices are much louder than yours.

Romair #37

`` At the very least, Pakistan should demand reciprocity from Arabs, for its support of their stances. Otherwise, it should recognize Israel.

That, of course, does not mean Pakistan should accept the human rights violations by Israel. Which are massive. ``

Pakistan is no position to demand recipocity from the Arabs. Pakistan needs the Gulf Arab states to be at least neutral in India-Pakistan disputes, concessional oil and employment for 2 million Pakistani workers. Gulf Arab states do not need Pakistan for anything.

Imagine Egypt sponsoring a resolution in UN accusing Pakistan of terrorism.

nazarhayatkhan #36: I agree.

At the very least, Pakistan should demand reciprocity from Arabs, for its support of their stances. Otherwise, it should recognize Israel.

That, of course, does not mean Pakistan should accept the human rights violations by Israel. Which are massive.

If the Palestinians were smart, they would appoint the Christian Hannan Ashrawi as their main leader. If you get a chance, do read her book. She is a Ph.D. in English from Virginia, and an excellent speaker. Much much much better than anyone else available to the Palestinians.

Romair # 35

Not only the Palestinians but some other Arab countries like Jordan and Egypt also recognize Israel.

It is an Arab issue and Arab means Muslim, Christian etc Arabs. Palestinians also have people from different religions.

It is an Arab issue - a political issue. The Christian Palestinians are fighting side by side with the Muslim Palestinians. Pakistan should support the Palestinian cause as most of the world is doing so - UN Resolutions. Pakistan should also recognize Israel as most of the world have done.

Urstruly #34: Good post.

``even if whole world recognize it and Palestinians dont the question will remain moot.``

To the best of my knowledge, the Palestinians do recognize Israel. They negotiate with Israeli leaders, etc. etc.

I actually have a very soft corner for Israelites. They are probably the most unfortunate people on this planet. Since the last century what Europeans and Americans have done to them, will be a dark chapter in the history. Currently, US spends 4 billion dollars to keep Isrealites in a murderous/suicidal position. They (US & Europeans) have put them in a bind, thru their unjust policies, from where there is no way out. Us and Europeans have committed horendous crimes against Palestinians in particular and Arabs in general thru their unequivocal and unjust support of Israelites and thus subjected Isrealites to an unprecedented human misery as well. What is happening in Palestine is the ultimate of the oppression, unseen and unheard of even in the dark ages. Practically a whole nation is forced into jails or concentration camps called Gaza & West Bank - what more can you do - send them to the gas chambers? Similarly, Israelites are as miserable as the people they oppress. Now a situation has come when the Isrealites have no option left but two:

1. Go back to Poland where they came from.

or

2. End the apartied; let the people of the land return to their land. If a social experiment like that in South Africa can be successful then why can`t it succeed in Palestine. Sooner or later they (Isrealites) will have to realize that reconcilliation is possible when truth is upheld. Let other people live and they will let you live.

I think Pakistan should have a principled stand as it had when Pretoria and aparthied was an
issue. It must however, try all its efforts to convince both parties to reach to either of the two solutions discussed above. The common sense suggests that the question of Pakistan recognizing Israel is really moot - even if whole world recognize it and Palestinians dont the question will remain moot. I dont think any ``solution`` can be forced upon Palestinians now.

``Pakistan should recognize Israel for one major simple realpolitik reason: if it doesn`t, then Israel has the capability to thoroughly screw Pakistan. And when it does so, no Arab country will come to assist Pakistan.``

You give Israel too much credit``

No. He gives his own country too little. I am surprised that an exPAF officer has so little confidence in his own country that he actually thinks a Jhaant baraber country like Iisrael can screw Pakistan. It seems Indians have more respect for Pakistan as compared to certain Pakistanis themselves.

``Because for one thing, it is idiotic to keep denying something that exists and is in our face.``

The best reason so far I have seen for recognition of a country. This one sentence says more than the entire article.