Pakistan and Israel: Through the prism of realities

Why the f you people of Pukiland want to bring India between you and Israel. It`s like you wanna rape your own people and show the boogey of India for every sin. Morons !!!.

Romair says ``And Arabs have never helped Pakistan, when it is under threat. How many Arab countries did anything when India recently parked its forces on Pakistan`s borders? Palestinians actually sent a delegation to Vajpayee, during that time. How many will de-recognize India over Kashmir? Has Arafat ever made a comment about Kashmir?``

Ever wondered why this is the case Romair? As I said in another interact on this board, it appears that the Pakistani army contingent in Jordan (think Zia was its CO) was the main instrument in making the lives of the palestinians more miserable than the whole of Israel put to gether. These palestinians were uprooted from Jordan (more than what Israel has done) and amde them nomads. I would like to be corected on this though.

Do you, or any other on chowk, have any reasons for the ummah treating pakistan like a football - worthy to be pumped, deflated and kicked around.

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Once again our resident Air Marshall has taken one sentence from post to condemn me. Had he read the post completely he would have understood what I am saying.. but the Air Marshall is only interested in reading his own posts... When I said Israel was a great nation it was after I condemned its theological roots. I didn`t mean that is why we should recognize it, nor because of some imagined ideological similarities (Israel is a Jewish state and people like the Air Marshall think that Pakistan was founded on the name of Islam). Nor should we be foolish enough to imagine that if we were to befriend Israel, it would undo the strategic military cooperation between India and Israel. Pakistan`s relationship with Israel has always been clandestine and covert, it will continue to be so even after recognition...

So why recognition then? Because for one thing, it is idiotic to keep denying something that exists and is in our face. Secondly recognition of Israel as the air marshall has pointed out will open the door for more investment in Pakistan. Right now we have isolated the jewish community which is very important investment wise... thirdly the jewish lobby in Washington will moderate its anti-Pakistan pro-India stance... while maintaining close and valuable ties with the Indian lobby.

Romair #20

`` Not because Israel is a great nation, as someone incorrectly pointed out. Greatness is decided by respect for human rights, and not by power. Israel, over the past fifty years, has been one of the biggest violoater of human rights in the world. There should be no doubt about that. ``

Israel has killed far fewer Arabs than Pakistani army in 1971. Israel`s human right record is far superior to Taliban, Sudan, Iran, Iraq, Burma, China and North Korea`s human right records. Israel faces scrutiny because it depends on US aid for its survival. Let us not go overboard.

`` And Arabs have never helped Pakistan, when it is under threat. How many Arab countries did anything when India recently parked its forces on Pakistan`s borders? Palestinians actually sent a delegation to Vajpayee, during that time. How many will de-recognize India over Kashmir? Has Arafat ever made a comment about Kashmir? ``

Arabs have helped Pakistan. They are not going to commit suicide helping Pakistan.

`` Pakistan should recognize Israel for one major simple realpolitik reason: if it doesn`t, then Israel has the capability to thoroughly screw Pakistan. And when it does so, no Arab country will come to assist Pakistan.``

You give Israel too much credit.

`` After recognizing Israel, Pakistan should ask Nike, Starbucks, Oracle, and others to set up some plants in Pakistan.``

Ask all you want

Sigh... can`t you guys ever write an article on Pakistan without dragging in India into every second line, and repeating the same old parrot cry about Indian `atrocities` in Kashmir...

whine, whine, whine... is that all you can do... :)

(sorry temporal, for infringeing on your copyright ;-))

btw, the previous post was meant for Naqshbandi alone..didn`t mean it seriously :-)

Naqshbandi:

``i remember when pakistan exploded its nukes at chaghai arab muslims cheered and celebrated. one of them said they felt as happy as if they themselves had exploded the nukes and that it was the most advanced thing any muslim nation had done for over a century. ``

Hmm, really?? Well since the cunning Baniyas across the border exploded nukes before the noble soldiers of Islam, does that mean Hindus are superior to Muslims? Well, at least in the eyes of Allah..since he is the creator of all circumstances...

Naqshbandi:

``i remember when pakistan exploded its nukes at chaghai arab muslims cheered and celebrated. one of them said they felt as happy as if they themselves had exploded the nukes and that it was the most advanced thing any muslim nation had done for over a century. ``

Hmm, really?? Well since the cunning Baniyas across the border exploded nukes before the noble soldiers of Islam, does that mean Hindus are superior to Muslims? Well, at least in the eyes of Allah..since he is the creator of all circumstances...

Whether Arab or Muslim nations accept Israel or not does not matter to the debate in Pakistan, because our arguments are ideologically based. The crux of the problem is that Pakistan considers itself more Islamic than Saudi Arabia and more muslim than all other muslims in the world combined. We, not the Saudis, are the guardians of Islam and we, not the rest of the muslims in the world, have the correct interpretations of Islam and we understand Islam better than the rest of the muslims in the world. We have the believe that Pakistan is the sine qua non of Islam since Islam was the raison d` etre of Pakistan. We are so myopically preoccupied with this flawed version of our own created myths, that we are incapable of breaking free from the ideological and mental shackles, which we have placed on our thinking process.

As long as Pakistanis think that they have a monopoly on Islam and are more loyal than the king, Pakistan will never develop a rationale to accept Israel.

Ciao

Naqshbandi

how about a defence pact with India, to have a protected South Asia... it makes more sense, in time India WILL become Pakistan`s biggest trading partner... The Europeans are all together in most major issues, why shouldn`t we be???

That way India can buy as many weapons as it wants, and God Forbid if it ever had to be used, it would be used to protect ALL of South Asia, instead of actually on us, Bangladesh or Sri Lanka...

but i suppose this idea is way to radical for South Asians right now, we`re too caught up in pangey with other countries...

Naqshbandi #17

`` the OIC is a joke...no Muslim respects it--i don`t even think the people who issue its useless declarations even respect it... ``

The OIC is as good as its members. Just like the UN.

`` therefore pakistan should never recognise israel. if you ask the muslim street in any country--even egypt which has official relations with israel-- almost all people will be against israel and identify strongly with the palestinians. ``

If Egypt, Jordan, PLO, Qatar, Oman, Morocco, Turkey can maintain diplomatic relations with israel why not Pakistan ?

`` the LEADERS of all arab countries are even more baighairat than pakistan`s leaders (though musharraf is catching up quickly in the shameless stakes and in sycophancy to washington) and therefore pay only lip service to islam and islamic issues. the fact that many arabs are fighting in kashmir alongside the local mujahideen proves that it is not a dead issue amongst arab muslims--just that the slave leaders prefer to do deals with india.``

Arab states like Syria, Iraq, Libya, Egypt (until 1970) stood up against Uncle Sam when Pakistani generals were collecting their rent.

`` having said that saudi arabia has consistently supported pakistan and deserves an honourable mention. pakistan`s foreign policy is also to blame. we should be more active in promoting pro-islamic and pan-islamic causes. Bhutto did the right thing by sending PAF to help the Arabs fight against Israel and he in fact was well on the way to making pakistan the accepted head of the muslim world. sadly he was killed... ``

Pakistan has helped Jordan monarch to quell Palestenian revolt and Saudi royal family put down their subjects. So much for Islamic brotherhood ..........

`` anyway when we exploded our bombs in may 1998 our leaders went out of their way to emphasise it wasn`t an islamic bomb but a pakistani bomb. what they should have done was offered the nuclear umbrella and joint defence pacts with saudi arabia for a start and then slowly other arab countries too could have been added... ``

If USA launches nuclear strike at Saudi Arabia what is Pakistan going to do ? Launch strikes at USA. ??

`` this of course means we should not recognise israel. in fact if i was leader of pakistan i would offer saudi arabia a joint defence pact so that an attack on arabia would be considered an attack on pakistan and vice-versa. i would also place some ghauri and shaheen missiles in saudi arabia. this would be beneficial for us too as it would give us strategic depth in any war with india and also access to saudia`s latest weapons...it would also make arabistan impregnable against any zionist designs as our nukes would protect them. ``

Why offer Saudi Arabia a nuclear umbrella when it is ruled by a bunch of despots ? How are you any better than Uncle Sam you criticize.

`` (the other country we need to have an official defence pact with is china.)``

you have no problem with aetheist pork eating commies when it suits your interests.

Pakistan should recognize Israel.

Not because Israel is a great nation, as someone incorrectly pointed out. Greatness is decided by respect for human rights, and not by power. Israel, over the past fifty years, has been one of the biggest violoater of human rights in the world. There should be no doubt about that.

And if there is ever a clash of civilizations, Israel`s human rights violations will be one of the biggest causes of it.

However, things have to work on a basis of reciprocity. Arabs give two hoots about Pakistan and Pakistanis. I have seen and dealt with too many to know this well. They consider Pakistanis second rate citizens. Infact, unlike one interactor`s comments, their people actually treat Pakistanis worse than their govts.

And Arabs have never helped Pakistan, when it is under threat. How many Arab countries did anything when India recently parked its forces on Pakistan`s borders? Palestinians actually sent a delegation to Vajpayee, during that time. How many will de-recognize India over Kashmir? Has Arafat ever made a comment about Kashmir?

Pakistan should recognize Israel for one major simple realpolitik reason: if it doesn`t, then Israel has the capability to thoroughly screw Pakistan. And when it does so, no Arab country will come to assist Pakistan.

So Pakistan should recognize Israel, while simultaneously pointing out its human rights violations and calling for a Palestinian state. After all, Pakistan has bigger problems with India, yet it recognzes India.

As for pissing off Saudis and others. They bring in Pakistanis into their countries, not to do a favor to Pakistan. They bring them in, because they need them to run their countries. This is why all countries bring in foreigners. They have been bringing in Egyptians and Morrocons and Indians, even though all three have recognized Israel.

After recognizing Israel, Pakistan should ask Nike, Starbucks, Oracle, and others to set up some plants in Pakistan.

the OIC is a joke...no Muslim respects it--i don`t even think the people who issue its useless declarations even respect it...

palestine is an islamic issue even more than kashmir becoz for muslims bayt al maqdis sharif (jerusalem) is the third holiest city after makkah and madina sharif. also it is a ``waqf`` for all time which means it belongs to all muslims for all time as it was declared as such by hazrat umar.

therefore pakistan should never recognise israel. if you ask the muslim street in any country--even egypt which has official relations with israel-- almost all people will be against israel and identify strongly with the palestinians.

the LEADERS of all arab countries are even more baighairat than pakistan`s leaders (though musharraf is catching up quickly in the shameless stakes and in sycophancy to washington) and therefore pay only lip service to islam and islamic issues. the fact that many arabs are fighting in kashmir alongside the local mujahideen proves that it is not a dead issue amongst arab muslims--just that the slave leaders prefer to do deals with india.

of course all this will change the day islamic govts come into power in all these countries. that is why the islamic opposition in almost every arab country is ruthlessly suppressed by means of torture, murder etc. That is also why the Americans don`t really want democracy in the middle east...as the islamists (so called) would run away with victory...

having said that saudi arabia has consistently supported pakistan and deserves an honourable mention. pakistan`s foreign policy is also to blame. we should be more active in promoting pro-islamic and pan-islamic causes. Bhutto did the right thing by sending PAF to help the Arabs fight against Israel and he in fact was well on the way to making pakistan the accepted head of the muslim world. sadly he was killed...

anyway when we exploded our bombs in may 1998 our leaders went out of their way to emphasise it wasn`t an islamic bomb but a pakistani bomb. what they should have done was offered the nuclear umbrella and joint defence pacts with saudi arabia for a start and then slowly other arab countries too could have been added...

i remember when pakistan exploded its nukes at chaghai arab muslims cheered and celebrated. one of them said they felt as happy as if they themselves had exploded the nukes and that it was the most advanced thing any muslim nation had done for over a century.

if we want to be the leader of the muslim world we have to show more imagination in our foreign policy and actively pursue a pan-islamic agenda (a la ZAB) instead of being america`s ``used condom`` to quote tariq ali.

this of course means we should not recognise israel. in fact if i was leader of pakistan i would offer saudi arabia a joint defence pact so that an attack on arabia would be considered an attack on pakistan and vice-versa. i would also place some ghauri and shaheen missiles in saudi arabia. this would be beneficial for us too as it would give us strategic depth in any war with india and also access to saudia`s latest weapons...it would also make arabistan impregnable against any zionist designs as our nukes would protect them.

of course such a foreign policy requires daring and a deep commitment to islam.
don`t expect musharraf to do anything of the sort.
(the other country we need to have an official defence pact with is china.)

Let me be the devil`s advocate on this ....

The author is primarily viewing this from the vantage point of a Pakistani expatriate in the
US- Obiously lobbying in the uS for Pakistan would become an easier task - given a more favorable tilt from American Jewish Organizations .... - I

But lets look at it from a Pakistani perspective....

A substantial portion of the Pakistan foreign Exchange comes from the GCC Gulf countries which are generally vehmently opposed to the Isreali recognition - Consequently an adverse decision to replace the hundreds of thousands of Pakis from the Gulf - could cause serious short term fianancial drawbacks. UAE Alone provide about US$12B in foreign exchange remitances roughly equal to the private remittances from the US to Pakistan. (

One could argue that there is a sizeable INdian poulation in the gulf as well - but that is primarily because Pakistanis in general are a very stupid people and have created a reputation that is represntative of their culture and value system - IN fact Pakistanis constitute on the largest percentage of the foreign workers in terms of the prision populations of the GCC countries) ... In addition Pakistan imports subsidized oil from both the UAE and Saudi Arabia on very favorable terms in certain cases on barter of goods - thereby conservinbg valuable foreign exchange ( an advantage that INdia is not offered)...

Moreover the GUlf countries also provide substantial defense funds in subsidizing Pakistanis faujis stationed in the Gulf and since the army calls the shots anyway - most officers would hate to see their pension plans go away

IN retrospect while the US Aid to Pakistan is mostly in terms of long term loans- and loan guarantees through the IMF and World Bank - the Arabs tend to be a be a little more generous in terms of their aid commitments to Pakistan...

Consequently a substantial change in foreign policy with adequate financial safeguards - is difficult - NOw certainly either

1. THe US provides a substantial handout to Pakistan ( ala Egypt) to recognize ISrael...
2. Israel & the US absorb the thousands of Paki janitors in the Gulf ....
3. That the Paki army could be given additional mine clearing assignments in the jungles of the Congo to compensate for exaggerated compensation in THE GCC countries...


The second part of the author`s arguments are also based on ``feel`` good statements- Israel has no real interest in Paki Paindoos - cause Pakis have nothing to offer with the exception of NUclear - nonproliferation - but that can easily be assured by the US ``Danda``. Secondly with the exception of Iraq/PLO - almost all Arab govt`s have been pro-Pakistan in terms of Pakistan`s stand on Kashmir wheras the West prefers a status quo at best.

In retrospect INdia and Israel ahve an active economic realtionship going back a couple of decades - Israel is far more concerned about an Independent Iran and probably seeks Islamabad`s help in a containment policy for Iran. - which Pakistan is hardly in position to provide since its 20% Shia Population is fairly influential and quite pro Iran - unless the author proposes a genocide of Pakistani Shias ( ala Bangladesh) ....

The author also has the tamarity to point out that the fault in Pakistan lies with democracy -or the common man. Conversely it can be argued that almost all the demagogues in Pakistan were a product of Martial law - Bhutto, SHareef, Mujib , Altaf etc etc ......

In the 21st century Pakistan has no influence with anybody except perhaps the UAE or Saudi - because they probably have the same number of functionally illiterate policy makers as Pakistan. This was amply demonstated that the PAk-Afghanb policy was not recognized by any country in the Islamic block....

THE author suffers from ``delusions of grandeur`` that Pakistan take the lead in the foreign policy arena - I would argue otherwise - that Pakistan is in no position to take any leadership role anywhere anytime soon. The author also alludes the the failure of Pakistani lobbying efforts in the US to Pakistan`s foreign policy.

Rather I would argue that Pakistan`s failure in lobbbying has to to with complete incompetence of the local Pakistan community - which besides ``qorma- khori`` - eating tandoor dishes and arm-chair generalship amounts to the strategic depth of a septic tank.

The achievements of Pakistanis viz a viz Indians are non-existent in the US - even though rough estimates put Pakis at about 1.2 million to the INdians being about 2.2 million....

THe author dismisses public opinion as insignificant - I would argue otherwise ....

Public opinion is based on moral, religious cultural and historic sensibilities.... and you cant push the public aside too often ....

a case in example was Bangladesh - where the ruling coitere completely disregarded public opinions of the majority of population of Pakistan which happened to be Bengalis - and consequently we know of the aftermath...

Acccording to your warped logic - that would also rationalize - dropping the kashmir issue altogether - since the KAshmiris have little to offer Pakistan in terms of financial or any other advantages ....

Next thing you know the author will be advocating the export of Pakistani women to Iraq - since that will bring substantial financial advantages - regardless of public opinion since Manila has receeded from that service sector ......



Foreign policy is based on siocial, political , economic, historical, cultural and demographic points of view . The author has shown no compeling scenario for a drastic change in Pakistani foreign poicy. - The cost of social upheavel is just too great - a fact I am sure theGeneral has taken into account

I do however agree that recognition of Israel is a matter of time and circumstance .. Pakistan should wait for the eventual recognition of Israel as the Arab nations fall into place .