Suicide Bombers

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i really don`t understand few(let me be a bit under-counter) elements of intense and out spoken criticism peeping out of not-so-to-the-point replies. I see the author trying to justify the suicide bombings in the article NOWHERE. one should realize that there is always a difference in justifying an act and pin pointing the action-reaction phenomenon. just as, when you are telling that the ball is bouncing back, you are telling the reaction of throwing the ball to the wall; and not justifying the bouncing of the ball back. similarly, the author here has listed the not-so-legitimate actions carried out by israelis, the not-so-legitimate reaction by the suicide bombers and the ways to remove this not-so-legitimate factor from the action and reaction reality. so simple.

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there are many more innovative brave honorable ways to die for your freedom and for your country --

suicide bombing is CERTAINLY not one of them --

there is no glory in the suicide -- after -- the indiscriminate killing of the innnocent bystanders -- only the self denigration of a community -- whose leaders give more value to the lives of their adversary -- than that of their own children -- pushing their precious youth to waste their valuable lives in such an ignoble gutter of ignominy.

This is what will happen...

* Israel completes building the wall.
* Israel and Palestine seperate
* Palestine gets independence
* Palestine remains third world with it`s economy stuck in third world level
* Israel will be blamed for Palestinian third worldness
* Palestinians start Homicide bombing by bombing a local pizzeria in the jewish section of Jerusalem..... thus showing the entire world the Palestinian source of pride and achievement.

If the Palestinian martyrs are ``terrorists`` for fighting to liberate their land then everyone in history who has fought an occupying army is also a terrorist.

Dear friends:

Thanks Almighty I am fully aware of the fact that the truth normally has a number of forms and manifestations. I have no doubt whatsoever that I, in no sense enjoy monopoly on truth. What I wrote in my article is at best just one aspect of the reality, one perspective to look at the tragic Palestine issue. There must be many more angles, many more interpretations of the events and details.

Anyhow, from my side, as I wrote earlier, this column was only meant to accentuate the relationship between the misery and sufferings of Palestinian and the (violent/callous) reaction their plight in 4th generation resulting in – NOT AT ALL to condone homicide bombings.

Rafay Alam Sahib, you are perfectly right that some acts must not be justified, regardless of the circumstances. Agreed. For example, rape, to mention one.
Likewise, thanks for also pointing out a very relevant discrepancy in Palestinian mode of action i.e., that instead of hitting military assets they go for softest targets. Yes, it is cowardice, no doubt about it despite the fact that the immensely huge disparity in military terms leaves few alternatives for Palestinians. I have not said otherwise either. I have all along wanted to say that the suicide bombers are outraged desperados. For neutralizing them we got to address their genuine grievances. Banging their families on head or demolishing their houses wouldn’t solve anything. Comparison with Pol Pot was anyhow little bit out of place, if you don’t mind.

Dard #25 and farhanarif7 #31, thanks a lot for helping me to put the record straight.

I don’t know why but some respondents seem to be totally unwilling to see any connection between oppression and the insanity it inevitability leads to.
Actually, to some extent, it is a sort of boomerang. It would really surprise me, if Hamas and Islamic Jihad are not using exactly same classic Israeli and American nonsense for justifying the loss of innocent (Israeli) lives and brainwashing these young girls and boys: “Sad but unavoidable collateral damage” or “ yes, wrong but a price worth paying” and so on.

Take care

quote ``If you don’t allow people to live honourably, you cannot deny them the luxury to at least die defiantly`` unquote. This is it. i cant be any better keep it up talib. For an example of the suffering, just consider a 16 year old girl whose father and brothers were killed for no offence by the israelis, her mother raped to death and herself too, later left alive for others as an example. What would an american or an australian lady do in such a circumstance. Just put her in the same position and she would blow herself in up in a marketplace. Its not because of religious differences that they do it, its because they have got not a single reason to live on and a thousand to die!!.As for the society or establishment that did nothing to protect them, they might as well be blown to hell-that is what every individual in that situation would think.

I see that the opinion is divided on the religious lines as well.

Group# 1. people with hindu handles and those who are known hindus do not want to address the issue of ``oppression`` at all. I think this group wishes that the sb should be tied to the religion of those who carry those attacks instead of opression.

Group# 2. People in this group put more emphasis on opression rather than the reaction to it. I think this group thinks that those who do not want to address oppression, do it becasue of their religious bias and usual anti-Muslim hatred. Otherwise, what a palestinian has ever done anything to Hindu, ever.

Reply to #24 by arjun_m on August 25, 2003 8:51pm PT

Arjun--no one can argue what happened in 71. I as a ``Paki`` (nice to see we`re all mature, broad minded adults indulging in a mature discussion!) regret that this dark chapter exists in my country`s history. It can never be forgiven and only by spending over 5 years in Dhaka did I realise that the common man does not hate Pakistan--even though my army committed a crime of unimaginable proportions there. That is the greatness of the Bengali nation. And as I said, incidents like these mar a country for a long time...Pakistan being case in point.

But I digress...on defending Sharon--let me know how many Palestinians and Lebanese people you personally know who have had their mothers and sisters raped and butchered mercilessly in front of their eyes...(think Beirut, think of the refugee camps in Palestine). This man is evil. Period. You state that the fact Pakistan army indulged in this disallows me to raise my concern on Sharon?!? You sure I`m in the sand?

Cheers

S

Waqar,

A charming article, which reveals that you have a good sense of humour. However, if I am wrong (and I say this despite your exhortation that the piece is Palestine specific), I would like to say a few things:

1. Non-violent movements do not work. Anyone who refers to Gandhi and Martin Luther King as examples can be referred to India Office documents discussing how Colonial England could not foot the bills for an expensive India after WWII, and evidence indicating that African Americans are treated no better than 100 years ago.

But, at the same time:

2. Taking up arms in a struggle against an oppressor should be aimed at the oppressor. Not innocents. Any, and I mean ANY, argument to the contrary should take a look at the Khmer Rouge`s rationalization for lining streets and roads with landmines: The violence inflicted on innocent people would destabilize the government. And Pol Pot is, to the best of my knowledge, no one`s hero. If there is any merit in your argument, Pol Pot would have the odd supporter (like, bless him, Hitler has found in many an Islamic (political) Fundamentalist).

3. When was the last time you heard of a suicide attack on an Israeli military post. The dearth of such attacks means that they must be difficult, if not impossible, to carry out. Which means that the these terrorists (my argument also works on the Israeli Army, which justifies the murder of innocents with revolting non-sequitors) follow the path of least resistance (pun not intended). Which makes them (and the Israeli Army) cowards.

Now, get on the web. Do a google search for death and destruction (there are a couple of sites out there which deal specifically in photographs of the victims of crime and violence, like www.rotten.com). Take a look at some photographs. Now imagine trying to explain your argument to the families of the victims you have seen.

Rafay Alam

I think there can be no second opinion that these homicide bombings targeting civilians are immoral, despicable, unjustifiable and ghastly acts.
Having said that, getting agreed upon this starting point, do we left with an option but to start imploring the causes which drive people to go to these lengths. And then obviously devising methods to discourage people doing this on one hand and defusing breeding ground for the perpetrators on the other.

This is what Mr Talib has apparently attempted. Pinpointing few of the reasons and offering some straightforward solutions. It was wise of him to make it Palestine specific and not involved religious aspect into it – probably to keep the subject within manageable dimensions.

Discussing suicide bombings beyond Palestine makes the concept too complex, perhaps too complicated to handle it seriously and meaningfully over here.

A little bit off the track here but can we expect our Resolute Correspondent in Bombay Farzana Versey give us her words of wisdom on the latest bombings in Bombay?

And all of those who were kind of claiming that the Ram Janma Bhoomi was a hoax by Hindus, do they have anything to say about the report by the Archaelogical Survey of India? Or are they going to take the position of the Wakf Board in India that the report itself is made out of whole cloth?

Re: #15 plats8

the answer to your question (sorry i missed it earlier) is a plain and simple ``no``. like i said no one enjoys getting blown up (let alone blowing himself/herself up). so if i were to lose a limb or a loved one in such an attack my approach to saving the rest of my family would be to work against the injustice that lead a bomber to kill himself and others.

what they did won`t be right but people will continue to blow up unless they are given their rights.

Re: #13 pmishra2

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HOw is your position different from Narendra Modi?
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i`m sorry Mishra Jee but i don`t see the comparison. what Modi is doing is conceiving more suicide bombers. he`s not a suicide bomber . he`s a part of the machinery that turns frustrated people into s.b.`s (pardon the abbreviation)


Re: #16 arjun_m

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What about the 15 saudi 9/11 suicide bombers?
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Arjun sahab how can i commit the great sin that justifying 9-11 is? if you are one of those that believe that those hijackers were a part of Al-Qaeda then i think the answer is pretty clear as to why they did it. what they achieved out of it and whether it was the right thing to do is NOT what i`m trying to get at.

all i`m saying is what has been summarised in #17 by Urstruly

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Opinion # 2: Suicide bombing cannot stop, no matter how immoral you think it is unless you eradicate the oppression that caused it in the first place.
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sure s.b. is wrong but what causes it is definitely worse. whether you want to cut down the shoots from a tree or uproot it is your choice.

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The author writes:

{{We have to keep in mind that suicide bombers are not born; no one is genetically programmed/destined to be a terrorist. Suicide bombers are made and made out of insult and repression.}}

(1) ‘Suicide bomber’ is a term that I refuse to accept for those who blow themselves up to kill other people. I suggest that all those opposed to this practice refer to these creatures as homicide bombers.

(2) It is unlikely that any genetic programming exists to turn people into homicide bombers. What the author oh-so-conveniently omits is that human beings are intensely affected by cultural programming, and that this is what accounts for the vast majority of homicide bombers. The cultural programming may take the form of mullahic religious brainwashing, as in the case of Islamist jihadis, or fascistic sub-nationalist indoctrination, as in the case of the LTTE.

(3) There are many possible responses to ‘insult and repression’, real or alleged. Homicide bombing is likely the least effective method of wresting any tangible concessions from a political adversary. This is especially the case when the adversary is a democratic state whose political strength derives from the mass support of its citizens. Homicide bombing attacks on the citizens or governing institutions of democratic states invariably stiffen public resolve to not yield an inch to the ostensible political demands of the groups behind the bombings. This should be clear to the criminal masterminds behind the bombings, if not to the delusional specimens who volunteer to go out with a bang.

(4) So I believe that the ‘insult and repression’ explanation will not fly. One has to look beyond real or imaginary grievances, to the specific nature of the programming that produces homicide bombers. Repression etc may provide the ‘excuse’ and the venue but nothing more. It seems clear that many if not most Islamist homicide bombers believe that they are doing “Allah’s work”, are the instruments of ‘divine justice’, and are going to a heavenly reward in paradise. This doctrine is specifically enunciated by a section of Sunni Islamic scholars. Oddly enough, this very salient fact finds no mention in this article. I wonder why?

See the following relevant article [Note especially the designation of homicide bombings as ‘martyrdom operations’ and the rejection of the notion that this is ‘suicide’.]:

Clerics OK Suicide Bombers

Excerpt:

{The groundwork for the military and religious justification for ``denying jihad`s connection to terror`` was laid at a little publicized conference in Stockholm in mid-July.
Five reports on the definition of ``terror`` were presented. A Pakistani politico-religious leader was in attendance and declared, ``Taliban is a movement Pakistan supports. America is the illegal occupier in Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq.``

Established in Britain in 1997, the European Council for Fatwa and Research is comprised mainly of Islamic scholars from the Arab world, and is headed by Sheikh Yousef al-Qaradhawi, one of the most influential clerics in Sunni Islam. …

Sanctified

Suicide-bombers were sanctified by the clerics for three battlefronts -- Palestine, Kashmir and Iraq. Al-Qaradhawi justified ``martyrdom operations`` against civilians in Israel ``because anyone past childhood, man or woman, is drafted`` and when returned to civilian life is still a soldier subject to mobilization at short notice. …

``What weapon,`` asked Sheikh al-Qaradhawi, ``can harm our enemy, can prevent from sleeping, and strip of a sense of security and stability, except for these human bombs -- a young man or woman who blows himself or herself up among their enemy? This a weapon the likes of which the enemy cannot obtain, …, because it is a unique weapon that Allah has placed only in the hands of the men of belief. It is a type of divine justice on earth, the weapon of the wretched weak against the powerful tyrant.``

The senior Sunni cleric rejected the notion that ``martyrs`` are committing suicide. ``Those who kill themselves because they failed in business, love or an examination, or the like, are too weak to cope with life and choose flight in death. ... (Suicide bombers) give themselves to Allah in order to receive paradise in exchange.``

At the council`s previous meeting at Dublin last January, differences emerged over the distinctions between colonialist terror, state terror, international terror, political terror, terror permitted by Islamic law and martyrdom operations. Advocates of ``martyrdom operations`` met little opposition at the Stockholm conclave. The U.S. invasion of Iraq, according to a London-based cleric, silenced the dissenters.}

Thanks for reading a modest attempt of mine to present my thoughts and views in written on this subject. I duly acknowledge all interactors and am grateful for the feedback – negative and positive alike. Prompted by the replies I would nevertheless like to add as follows:

a) There is no agreed definition of terrorism. The difficulty of arriving at one is underlined by the old adage that one man’s terrorist is another’s freedom fighter. Palestinians have been denied every right to a decent and dignified livelihood, a civilized existence, development, civil liberties, the list is long and can go on and on. What alternative modes do they have then after 50 years of humiliation and sufferings, if I may ask?

b) pmishra2:
Sir, I respect your right to disagree with my views and analysis of the underlying causes of the menace, but you have no right to accuse me for justifying “senseless and mindless violence”. Please, go back and read the write-up once more and see for yourself that I have time and over again pointed out the wrongness of this practice – religiously as well as morally/ethically.

Correct, 100 % correct, I (and I am sure that neither anyone else) would like to be a target/victim of these suicide (I have no reservations calling them homicide either) bomber. But may I ask, in response, would you like to be one of those Palestinians being besieged, humiliated and kicked around at Jenin, Hebron, Ramallah etc? I FULLY understand the agony of the Israeli victims (and their loved ones) of Palestinian suicide bombers. Do you have any sympathy for the Palestinian victims of Israeli fascist tactics??

c) arjun_m:
I wouldn’t disagree that in many cases, poor commit crime out of necessity nor due to lust/habit or hobby. To some extent best crime prevention strategy is to provide minimum level of living conditions. Yes, many low level crimes would go down, if not disappear altogether, by making the life of perpetrators worth living.

d) stuka jee:
cool down, please. The ratio came down from 25 to 3:1. It seems that for you stone throwing lads being picked up by Israeli tanks and snipers creates no moral problem but the same boys with wounds of dozens of Israeli bullets on their bodies one day strapping dynamite to their waist become an ethical issue. Not very fair, Sir. By the way, have you ever heard or read about any Palestinian blowing himself up in Norwegian, Swedish or Belgian café, restaurant or buss? I really DON’T believe in blowing cafes, restaurants and busses. I condemn it wholeheartedly. But I demand Palestinians’ right to live as well.

#19 Yantric

You are on the money here. This will only change when the supporters of the use of suicide bombing are themselves targets of techniques of mass murder. We have begun to see this a little bit in Pakistan, but not enough to change attitudes.

This is quite similar to support for jihad in Pakistan pre-9/11. The pakistani *elite* was quite happy to justify taliban, kashmir killings, whatever. After 9/11 once they began to be strip-searched in airports and the western powers made it clear that they would personally target them, they suddenly changed their tune. Once the brother-in-law couldn`t get his visa for medical residency in USA because of their support for violence, they began to have second thoughts.

I cant understand some volatile reactions here.
I dont see anywhere, the writer condoning and patting the suicide bombers at the back. He has clearly stated that `its an immoral and illegitimate act to an immoral and illegitmate occupation`.
He is simply pointing out why it happend and how it can end.

This article points out to the fact why the Gap exists between islam and the rest of the world. There are certain acts that can never be justified. By trying to justify ``suicide`` or ``homicide`` bombers, the author has justified the reaction of Hindus in Gujrat, America`s takeover of Afghanistan and Iraq etc. By killing innocent non combatants, the palestianians will never be able to budge Israelis and the Westerners.

It is very commendable if someone gives up his life for a cause but it is deplorable if innocent bystanders are hurt. By fasting unto death, a few Indians got Britain out of India. By the acts of self immolation a few Budhist Monks stood upto and in time won over the Americans and the French. Palestinians by suicide bombing have not achieved an iota. As a matter of fact their cause has slid down.

What has been achieved by the most audacious suicide bombers, the 9/11 guys? Two islamic countries have lost their independence (Iraq and Afghanistan), one islamic country has lost its defacto sovereignity ( Pakistan). The rulers of the richest Islamic country are now running like chickens with their heads cut off ( Saudi Arabia). The other consequence of 9/11 for Islam is now being analyzed and its adherents are now suspects. I used to see so many men with embroiderd caps and women in Hijabs in Chicago before 9/11. Now weeks go by before I see anyone proudly wearing his islamic identiy. Mohamads have become Michaels, Yusufs are calling themselves Joseph and Ali Jans have become Al Johns.

Suicide bombers are not only killing themselves and the innocent bystanders but they are killing any sympathy for their cause. When one hears about a suicide attack, who the hell considers about the justification of the cause for which the suicide bomber died. One only feel pained for the innocent victims.

Waqar

Brave article--which has resulted in good pre-lim discussion. Write on...

My two cents: I know where you`re coming from--and I agree with the reasoning you resort to. Critics of this article just need to spend time understanding where this act of desparation rises from. But we can`t compare them to those who committed the mindless violence witnessed in Bombay today...simply because the latter have a sick, wretched belief system, bent on avoiding peace in the sub-cont. Paradox it may be, but the suicide bombers probably believe they fight for a better life for those they leave behind.

Furthermore, in answering yogiraj (11)...please don`t even start...a country which can boast a butcher and devil incarnate like Sharon as its democratically elected leader will always, always suffer...mate, just take a look at what this man and his colleagues have done in the past (read Fisk, Edward Said, Eqbal Ahmed, Chomsky, Roy, some press in Israel, unbiased press, etc etc ) and then reflect on why this happens...even (some) Jews blame the Jews in this fight! (and I agree, Zia did more than his fair share of ruining Pakistan.)

Well said, Urstruly 17.

S

I think it is a very balanced article. Judging from the posts so far, I see that the opinion of is divided on very sharp lines:

Opinion # 1: Suicide Bombings must stop regardless of whether it is a reaction to a brutal opression or not.

Opinion # 2: Suicide bombing cannot stop, no matter how immoral you think it is unless you eradicate the oppression that caused it in the first place.

I think the common denominator in both cases is brutal oppression.

#12 anzar

You can try any of your standard language tricks. They are not going to work. Deflecting the discussion by discussing WHY and this or that or the other are games you can play with gullible liberals. I am not of them.

BTW, I asked you the question: HOw is your position different from Narendra Modi? You are unable to answer. That is because there is no difference between them. Both of you believe in brutal, community-based murder of civilians for ``just cause``. So enjoy your high status...

Suicide bombing against civilians, as happened in Bombay yesterday, is a crime of mass murder. People who fund this type of activity should be tried as accessory to murder. I hope that this will be part of laws in all civilized countries soon.

Targeting civilian areas is legitimate. It always has been, always will be. The recent tendency to avoid this is more a happy coincidence of modern munitions, rather than a major shift in the rules of war. If you don`t like this aspect of war, then don`t support it.

Drawing a distinction between non-state actors and states in this regard is disingenuous at best.

anzar #12

Sorry, I still don`t have an answer. If a genuinely aggrieved and oppressed individual
blows himself up, are you willing to be his victim or offer up your family members
to be his victim ?

If we agree that Hamas, IRA and Al-Qaeda are products of oppression, are you willing
to compromise your life to help them make a statement ? This is a zeroth order
question. Political nuances and arguments can follow.

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Timely artical Waqar Talib. Just as I am trying to figure out where my two friends are in south Mumbai.

As long as crime, any crime, is done by a misled muslim, it is justifiable. As long as a misled muslim is in a minority or in lesser power where he/she does it, it is ok. Same crime by any one else is a dasterdly act. It is Zionism, Nazism, Neo-conservitism, W the Idiot, Hindu the Bania....

You wrote a whole artical blaming jews. Spend some more time to answer these two questions.

The arabs that you love so much, had the part of the palestine land for 20+ years before it was taken away in a war. Let us not even go into who started it and why. They (the arabs) never even thought of giving it to these suicide bombers then. Why?

As far as I know, Pakistan (your own great savior called Zia-ul something) actually send troops to kill and/or throw away these suicide bombers out of (this world or) Jordan. Why?

Not very hopeful. Actually, I know you will not answer.

Yogiraj Patil

Re: #8 pmishra2, #9 plats8

ah Mishra Jee...lets start over. there is no JUSTIFICATION behind what a suicide bomber does but there`s always a REASON!

nobody wants to die: provided they can live happily. a suicide bomber is not born; he/she is MADE. shouldnt a more rational approach to the problem at hand be to address the party that created the circumstances that conceived the suicide bomber, and tell them to take a break?

the IRA, the Hammas and Al-Qaeda are all products of oppression. lets not try to justify what they do, lets just look at WHY they do it. i`m sure you will agree that most if not all suicide bombings could have been avoided had these people been dealt with justice if not equality.

unless the invasion, the oppression and the injustice is discontinued the suicide bombings will never end.

about time we pulled our heads out of the sand.

On Suicide Bombings

...there is...there was...there can be no justification...

reminds of what have said many times earlier:

...there can be no justification of any deliberate viloent act agains civilians..none whatsover...be they by individuals, organistations or states....